DSC + Orange Brake lights: Yaw sensor? [Archive] - BMW E46 330 ZHP For Sale Forum

2004_blue_zhp

04-27-2013, 05:32 PM

Hi all,

Earlier today, with my car parked and with the e-brake on, my girlfriend was adjusting the driver's seat (she was moving the seat basically as far forward as it would go), when I noticed that my DSC light had come on. I tried turning the car off and then back on but the light stayed lit and I noticed the BRAKE light was staying illuminated in orange after I released the handbrake. I.e. both my DSC and my ABS lights are on.

I googled around on that combination of lights and it seems like this could be caused by a faulty or missing signal from the yaw sensor, which I understand is located below the driver's seat. I'm tempted to conclude that somehow in moving around the seat I/she/we might have somehow screwed up the connection to the yaw sensor, or otherwise caused an issue w. that part.

What do you guys think? Is that the likely cause of my DSC/Orange Brake lights staying lit? If so, how hard is it to get to the yaw sensor to check if it's correctly plugged in? If not, what else might cause this combination of indicators to light up? For context, I'd driven the car 120 miles yesterday and moved it around in my driveway earlier today, both with no warning lights lit.

Thanks

M0nk3y

04-27-2013, 05:48 PM

Wheel speed sensor will also trip those lights

danewilson77

04-27-2013, 05:57 PM

And a car that is poorly aligned, or has high mileage, very worn tires.

HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA

kayger12

04-27-2013, 05:58 PM

my girlfriend was adjusting the driver's seat

Well, there's the problem right there.

I keed, I keed.

Iirc, the yaw sensor is under the carpeting. It requires removing the seat and the footwell trim, so I don't think moving the seat messed with the sensor.

To go in a different direction, what's the age and condition of your battery?

If you were weak on voltage at idle the drivers seat adjustment could have pushed you into BMW-whacky-electrical-gremlin territory...

wsmeyer

04-27-2013, 06:03 PM

Check out page 18,19,20 of the manual:

http://images.chaleur.com/BMW%20Library/2006%203%20Series%20Convertible%20Owners%20Manual. pdf

I think you are talking about this one:

"Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) and brake warning lamp
●
The indicator lamps remain on: DSC/DTC have been switched off with the button or are faulty.
If there is a malfunction, have the system checked as soon as possible.
Additional information beginning on
page 91"

If that's the case I believe a fault code would also be recorded that my help pinpoint the problem

2004_blue_zhp

04-27-2013, 07:55 PM

Kayager, I think I follow your logic re: battery. I bought the car used 2 years ago with 50k on the clock. Now 62k on the clock. Is there an easy way to check battery condition? Would extended driving give the alternator time to recharge the battery? Without opening up to big of a can of worms, is the consensus about which battery to use for a replacement?

LivesNearCostco

04-27-2013, 08:36 PM

Blue, you can unlock the OBC hidden functions to watch your battery voltage both with engine off and engine running. But don't turn key to off or you'll have to do the whole OBC unlock ritual again! Could also open hood and use DMM to measure voltage at passenger-side terminals near smuggler bin.

If the lights both come on yellow and you didn't hold down the DSC switch for at least 3 seconds first, or they're both on right when you start the car, there are about 5 likely causes.
--One or more wheel speed sensors dirty, failed, or has broken cable (cheap part, easy to clean or replace)
--Steering angle sensor failed or needs to be recalibrated (inexpensive part, hard to replace I heard)
--Yaw sensor failed or disconnected
--DSC module failed (expensive part)
--Low voltage from bad battery or alternator

The cheapest and quickest check is voltage with DMM or OBC hidden function, or your FLAPS may have a portable battery/alternator tester. Next easiest is cleaning all 4 wheel speed sensors. With car on lift or jack stand it's possible without removing them, but to clean really well I recommend removing all 4 wheels and removing sensors from hubs then cleaning them. When these lights happened to me, my indie cleaned them in place with some brake cleaner and it fixed it for a few months. Problem returned so I removed and cleaned each sensor carefully (probably using rubbing alcohol) and the problem hasn't returned for over a year.

If cleaning sensors doesn't work, a code reader or full software (DIS/INPA type) might be able to pull codes showing if the error is wheel, steering angle, yaw, or other sensor.

Newjack

04-27-2013, 08:53 PM

Livesnearcostco makes good points. But the battery is one of the easiest things to check and is a very common culprit for any electrical problems. Go ahead and check that first.

Also "Yaw sensor"

http://blog.gettyimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Howard-Dean-Joe-Raedle-Getty-Images-72350864.jpg

LivesNearCostco

04-27-2013, 08:55 PM

Yaw'll come back, ya hear!

Rovert

04-28-2013, 01:30 AM

I had my wheel speed sensor trip this last winter so I thought I'd first try blasting water in all four corners because maybe that magnetic sensor grabbed some really fine sand that played with the readings. After a jet blast under the car I drove away and all was good again. :)

kayger12

04-28-2013, 02:01 AM

Hidden OBC is an easy way to see what's going on with the battery as Costco described.

For a replacement many go with the Duralast DL-49 or the 94R-DLG (exact fit).

2004_blue_zhp

04-29-2013, 07:22 AM

New information...

With car at idle and with things like heated seats and headlights off, battery reads between 14.0 and 14.2.

Swung by a local indy this morning (Audi/VW guy, but figured he'd have a code reader) and for $10 he pulled my codes. Only 1: 5E43, steering angle sensor. (Might have also had the word "Internal" in there).

So that makes sense in that a busted/unplugged/faulty steering angle sensor would cause the combo of lights I've been seeing. The indy tried to clear the codes but didn't seem to have any luck. He'd only had this code reader for 3 days, and this was his first time using it. (Aside: Is there anything funnier than someone trying to use a non-touch-screen device as if it were a touch screen?) So the lights remain lit and I continue to get a helpful (read: annoying) little beep whenever I begin driving.

Is it possible that I disturbed the steering angle sensor while moving my steering column around (tilt and reach) when I was trying to find the right driving position for my girlfriend? Are there any "silly" ways the steering angle sensor could throw this code? (For example, could it simply be unplugged?) Or is a code like this pretty much 100% that the part will need to be replaced? Is this an expensive one to deal with?

Thanks

Meric

04-29-2013, 07:30 AM

Re-Align your steering wheel angle your good to go.

IF! DSC throws Internal Module Failure than you need a new MK60 module :( or used.. New one is around $1000. Re-Alignment can be done thru INPA. :)

Let me know how it goes I'll help you do your coding-reprogramming. :)

LivesNearCostco

04-29-2013, 09:10 AM

I heard a rumor on E46 fanatics that you can recalibrate the steering angle sensor by turning the steering wheel all the way left then all the way right a few times with the key in the On position. (Will be much easier if motor is running or front wheels are off the ground.) The tells the DSC module where full left and right lock are. It does sound kind of iffy and Meric's suggestion is undoubtedly the best way to go. I don't know INPA but assume it lets you set full left, full right, and straight ahead.

Here's the RealOEM diagram for the steering angle sensor, part #16. The diagram does not do a good job of showing how or where the sensor goes on the steering column but if recalibration fails, maybe you can remove lower column cover and re-seat the sensor plug.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/x/l/19.png

wsmeyer

04-29-2013, 09:25 AM

I swear somebody on this forum had this same problem with their steering angle sensor and it turned out to be an alignment issue.

Is your steering wheel straight when you are going straight?

wsmeyer

04-29-2013, 09:30 AM

Here it is, it was Dane:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?3873-BMW-330i-ZHP-Steering-Wheel-Angle-Sensor-Information-and-Discussion&highlight=steering+angle+sensor

Meric

04-29-2013, 03:31 PM

Turning wheels actually does nothing since DSC MK60 unit doesnt align itself automaticly. Must be done thru INPA or some other software.

Things that causes DSC to go off;
Bad abs - Speed Sensor
Internal module failure (This is when your screwed must be remanifactured or swapped with other MK60 Module)
Steering wheel sensor
Abs Pump
Vacuum
Dont remember rest.

2004_blue_zhp

05-01-2013, 02:32 PM

All sorted.

Went to a really great shop in Simsbury, CT called Auto-bon. They sorted me out in half an hour. Just needed a recallibration/recode on the steering angle sensor (which, when I got there, was apparently stuck reading "full left lock" no matter where the wheel really was). $45 for half an hour of labor, $25 for the re-coding itself.

For what it's worth, the guys there seemed to know their stuff. Next time I'm up in the area, I'll plan to leave my car with them for a few preventative items that have been on the todo list for a while (gear oil change, diff oil change, FCAB replacement). Actually, on that note, what do you guys think of as the right replacement interval for the RTAB and the diff bushing?

LivesNearCostco

05-01-2013, 10:23 PM

Good news! And cutsie shop name. That's like a hair salon called "A Cut Above" or "Shear Pleasure."

2004_blue_zhp

12-22-2013, 07:16 PM

Blah. It happened again. Exact same situation. Was moving the steering wheel (lowering it, and moving it toward the instrument cluster) so that my significant other could take a shot behind the wheel. Halfway through the adjustment, the same two warning lights were on. Turning on and off the car doesn't help. And the DSC is most certainly disabled. Frustrating. Probably out another $100 to get the thing recallibrated again.

Any idea why adjusting the steering column would throw this off? Both times, the engine was running as we adjusted the wheel. Is that a bad idea? Anyone else ever had/heard of this issue?

Dual

07-25-2016, 07:54 AM

Coming back to this thread in 2016.
This and linked threads have been very interesting to read. I am getting this problem on occasion and it has mostly cleared itself over time, but now it appears stuck on.

To me, brake pad wear sensors are just stupid money-wasters, assuming that the car in question is under the regular responsible care of a good mechanic. My last car was a Porsche 968 and we just disconnected all four sensors. Am I correct that this cannot be done on our cars, given the involvement of yaw, steering angle and other issues?

slater

07-25-2016, 08:02 AM

To me, brake pad wear sensors are just stupid money-wasters, assuming that the car in question is under the regular responsible care of a good mechanic. My last car was a Porsche 968 and we just disconnected all four sensors. Am I correct that this cannot be done on our cars, given the involvement of yaw, steering angle and other issues?

i don't think the brake pad wear sensors will interfere with the ABS and DSC systems, but the wear sensor is two wires; if you snip the sensor off and twist both wires together, you won't ever have to worry about them again and the system will think your pads are fine.

Vas

07-25-2016, 09:26 AM

Pad wear sensors wont trigger the abs/dsc light

The speed sensors can if they are dirty, brake fluid level, dsc sensor 1 or 2 and the actual module.

Dual

07-25-2016, 09:26 AM

i don't think the brake pad wear sensors will interfere with the ABS and DSC systems.... In these cases, where the "BRAKE" lamp and brake rotor icon light up, the DSC light goes out and cannot be switched on.
...if you snip the sensor off and twist both wires together, you won't ever have to worry about them again and the system will think your pads are fine. That's really good to know. Thank you!

ON EDIT (having read this post and Vas' subsequent): Local mechanics are telling me what I'm seeing is a brake pad warning issue. Not the case? Again: I get the "BRAKE" lamp and brake rotor icon lit, the DSC light off and a single chime on startup.

slater

07-25-2016, 09:35 AM

In these cases, where the "BRAKE" lamp and brake rotor icon light up, the DSC light goes out and cannot be switched on. That's really good to know. Thank you!

ON EDIT (having read this post and Vas' subsequent): Local mechanics are telling me what I'm seeing is a brake pad warning issue. Not the case? Again: I get the "BRAKE" lamp and brake rotor icon lit, the DSC light off and a single chime on startup.

you really need to scan the car with PASoft or the like to see what is being triggered, as i agree with vas, i don't think (or see how) the pad wear sensors could do that. vas mentioned fluid level - have you checked that? again, a scan would tell a lot. :)

anandoc

07-25-2016, 09:38 AM

So this is what I understand:

handbrake light: ON
brake pad wear light: ON
DSC light: OFF

If you are getting the e-brake light (even though it is not engaged), is it possible that the switch that senses whether your handbrake is engaged has gone bad? This would also trigger a single chime on startup.

The brake pad wear light can turn on if the wear sensor wire is somehow damaged and is causing an open-circuit. Happened to me once. A quick visual inspection should reveal this.

Dual

07-25-2016, 11:05 AM

I don't have PASoft or a computer which can run it, but I have a scanner. My e-brake handle seemed to be running normally in that it beeps regularly if I drive with it engaged (It's always lit now).

slater

07-25-2016, 11:06 AM

I don't have PASoft or a computer which can run it, but I have a scanner. My e-brake handle seemed to be running normally in that it beeps regularly if I drive with it engaged (It's always lit now).

i've got a cheapie old laptop running XP for sale if you need one for PASoft. ;)

az3579

07-25-2016, 11:22 AM

i've got a cheapie old laptop running XP for sale if you need one for PASoft. ;)
XP needs to die a horrible, miserable death. You should just retire it. [emoji14]

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

slater

07-25-2016, 11:25 AM

XP needs to die a horrible, miserable death. You should just retire it. [emoji14]

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

it's fine for these purposes and if you don't connect it to the internet. ;)

Dual

07-25-2016, 11:32 AM

Well- please PM me on that, but be prepared for a lot of ignorance on the matter because I'm a Mac user lol

Dual

07-29-2016, 03:50 AM

So my local indie has pretty sophisticated test hardware and among other things could read the abs module. He found two sensors with pressure faults which he said pointed to the module since it's unusual to see simultaneous failure of multiple sensors. He reset and wants me to drive around until the next fault throws, for further diagnostics at that time.

Dual

07-29-2016, 03:58 AM

BTW bought Slater's laptop for my PASoft unit (Thanks, Peter!)
Should I be able to read/clear ABS codes using said hardware?

anandoc

07-29-2016, 04:59 AM

BTW bought Slater's laptop for my PASoft unit (Thanks, Peter!)
Should I be able to read/clear ABS codes using said hardware?

Yup, you can read codes from the DSC module. Ayan (orange260z) had one of his pressure sensors starting to fail last year and we were able to pull that code using PA Soft.

Dual

07-29-2016, 05:03 AM

Cool beans! Thank you.

Dual

08-01-2016, 07:34 AM

So my local shop detects pressure sensor faults on two sensors, repeatedly (problem recurred immediately after reset). He wants to replace the sensors if no wiring flaws reveal themselves, with the idea that if that fails to clear things, the CPU is next. Expensive: over $600.00 if the two sensors have to be replaced.

Thoughts?

Vas

08-01-2016, 01:53 PM

Each sensor is about $150. You might as well replace both since they are right next to each other and the brake system has to be bled.

But $600 is a tad high imo.

Dual

08-01-2016, 04:13 PM

Thanks for this, Vas.

Dual

08-02-2016, 11:05 AM

26637

slater

08-02-2016, 12:13 PM

to me, it seems weird that both sensors would go bad at the same time... both are located on the master cylinder and have an electrical connector on each. possible that they are unplugged?

that pressure switch is $35 on amazon! (and $160 at ECS)

https://www.amazon.com/Brake-Pressure-Sensor-34521164458-55CP09-02/dp/B01HNUOLJK

Dual

08-02-2016, 12:33 PM

slater

08-02-2016, 12:42 PM

I have been looking under the hood for something that would look like the master cylinder but can't find it.
ON EDIT: Found it but it's buried. I will have to pull stuff away from that area to check connections.

yep, it's right by the DME box, just on the other side of the firewall from the gauge cluster. a small flashlight might help you see the connections easier.

az3579

08-02-2016, 01:01 PM

slater

08-02-2016, 05:08 PM

That isn't a genuine BMW part. The one on ECS is $145, actually... and is a Genuine BMW one. That's why there's a big price difference.

yes, but it's made by ATE, who made the BMW part! you can see the ATE logo here:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/dsc-pressure-sensor/34521164458/

az3579

08-02-2016, 05:58 PM

yes, but it's made by ATE, who made the BMW part! you can see the ATE logo here:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/dsc-pressure-sensor/34521164458/

Oops, missed the ATE logo on the Amazon pic.

Dual

08-03-2016, 04:05 AM

Dual

08-03-2016, 04:30 AM

By the way- how often are we flushing the brake fluid around here? It's been 10K mi. since my car was done. Seems like factory interval was 10K or so?

slater

08-03-2016, 04:53 AM

The connectors to the pressure sensors look like everything else in the engine compartment- practically brand-new*. They appear to be fully seated. They don't have a lot of protection from the elements- I wonder if washing might have damaged them??? I've never drenched anything there, but have likely sprayed water into that area.

that could have done it. in my opinion, spraying water into the engine bay should be avoided.

By the way- how often are we flushing the brake fluid around here? It's been 10K mi. since my car was done. Seems like factory interval was 10K or so?

i think the general rule of thumb is every 2 years, as brake fluid is hydroscopic... so mileage should not matter, just time.

Dual

08-03-2016, 05:13 AM

Thanks for this. I'm at 3 years and 8K mi.

As to water, I started a thread about engine bay detailing (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?17753-Engine-bay-cleaning&p=489824#post489824) a few months back and came out of it with the sense judicious use of water wouldn't be a problem. Maybe there's more to it.

az3579

08-03-2016, 11:20 AM

By the way- how often are we flushing the brake fluid around here? It's been 10K mi. since my car was done. Seems like factory interval was 10K or so?

2 years, as Peter said.

Vas

08-03-2016, 02:50 PM

I do it yearly

BMWCurves

08-03-2016, 06:18 PM

I do it yearly

+1. Not that strict on it though.

slater

08-03-2016, 11:09 PM

For what it's worth I have PAsoft running now and here's what it's telling me-
26653

if you hit 'clear errors', does the 5E24 error go away?

Dual

08-04-2016, 07:25 AM

No. The car is in the shop now.

ON EDIT: somehow my post with the screen image got deleted. Here it is:
26666

Dual

08-05-2016, 01:37 PM

Things are not going well. The shop took the car in for what was supposed to be a couple-hour job and kept adding delay after delay. Finally got it back today 28 hours later. I checked the work. Two things pop out at me immediately and I'm asking for input:

26668

First off, the sensors, one is shown blurred in the photo, have zero nomenclature on them and are raw silver aluminum in color. Factory??

Second, I just don't recall that the hose coming off the expansion tank (I'm assuming that's what it is) was all bound up with US-style electrical tape as shown. I'm almost feeling like they damaged it.

Opinions??