Oil Starvation - Lifter Tick after session

[Dave_B]

So guys, went out to the BMW performance center for the first time (on track and really pushing the car)

I had some MAJOR lifter tick after a session. Ryan and Wyatt both suggested just revving the motor to around 2 grand for 30 seconds to get it to go away, which it did.

My question is this is likely oil starvation and NOT good for the motor regardless of what google/web says. So, how do we prevent it in these cars? Baffled oil pan? Extra Oil (don't like this idea), other options?

In previous experience on track, oil starvation blew up motors and could be prevented with either a baffled oil pan, or weld in baffles. I think at this point, a dry sump setup may be over kill for what I plan on doing with the car.

Discuss.

[wertyu78]

In for reply.

[kayger12]

Some good info in these threads.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?4987-Lifter-tick-after-autocross

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?7395-Engine-ticking-after-autocross

[Dave_B]

Some good info in these threads.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?4987-Lifter-tick-after-autocross

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?7395-Engine-ticking-after-autocross

Thanks for the links. But I digress, they still say it's normal.

Normal to me, happens daily and often. This ONLY happens after a hard session. While I agree, most every shrugs it off, I'd rather prevent it. If it's getting starved of oil, what else is happening?

[HokieZHP]

I've heard some guys add 1/2 quart before running and then at the end of the day, siphon it back out.

[nike001]

I've experienced this.

As others have stated, it's normal. The oil is sloshing around due to the hard corners and isn't getting to the places in the quantities that it needs.

[Dave_B]

I've experienced this.

As others have stated, it's normal. The oil is sloshing around due to the hard corners and isn't getting to the places in the quantities that it needs.

Oil getting in places it needs to be isn't healthy for your motor. It's needed there for a reason and IMO NOT normal as indicated everywhere on the web.

That being said, it looks like an oil pan baffle is around $200 online. I suppose one of those will go in my car when I do the pan gasket. Seems like cheap insurance. I was all over 6k today and several sections of high G which would induce this starvation.

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/m52tu-m54-oil-pan-baffle-p2912.aspx

Apparently, on our cars, 330's the oil pump shaft can shear off due to the harmonics of the engine at high RPM as discussed here:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?5616-Has-anyone-lost-or-secured-their-oil-pump-nut-Does-it-come-from-the-factory-with-thread-locker

Here's a nice read about the Oil Pump Nut too:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=714263

Our ZHP nuts ARE different, but apparent still can back out.

Over filling to me seems more like a band aid than a fix to the issue.

At the end of the day, it's to each his own. But I have to strongly disagree that this ticking after a session is "normal" and "ok" and WILL lead to premature wear depending on how much/long and how often you do this.

[nike001]

BMW tested and put this out... and they make some of the best engines on the planet (specifically the inline 6's). They've surely experienced this, so if they think it's OK to sell to us, then I'm good with that.

[zhpnsnv]

BMW tested and put this out... and they make some of the best engines on the planet (specifically the inline 6's). They've surely experienced this, so if they think it's OK to sell to us, then I'm good with that.

I normally subscribe to this line of thinking, too. But in the case of actual track work, it doesn't hold up, and neither will a stock car if pushed to the limit often.

OP - I believe VAC are the ones to check with, as you did. Also give TMS and Bimmer World a call to see what they say. I cannot imagine they're tracking cars without some baffling, but I could be wrong.

[midlandtech]

I normally subscribe to this line of thinking, too. But in the case of actual track work, it doesn't hold up, and neither will a stock car if pushed to the limit often.

OP - I believe VAC are the ones to check with, as you did. Also give TMS and Bimmer World a call to see what they say. I cannot imagine they're tracking cars without some baffling, but I could be wrong.

TMS offers a baffel solution but its big bucks

[M0nk3y]

M54 is a wet sump, over fill by 1/2 a quart and you'll be fine.

All BMWs lifter tick. When I say all I mean most...

My E46 lifter ticked every time I autocrossed it. Nothing happened to it.

[LivesNearCostco]

I suppose the no worries thinking is having the oil pickup tube sucking air for a second or two will not kill the engine because the existing oil film will last until the pickup tube is submerged again. This presumes whatever temporary starvation affects the valve lifters doesn't starve the bearings. I've had lifter tick many times. Usually overfilling by 1/2 quart prevents it. Is my engine still alive? Yes. Have I been wearing it out faster? Dunno.

Eventually I plan on the VAC Motorsports baffle (http://store.vacmotorsports.com/m52tu-m54-oil-pan-baffle-p2912.aspx), currently selling for $180. But I figure it will be at least $360 to have a shop install it because you have to support the engine, drop the front subframe, remove the oil pan, clean it, then weld this puppy in. I suppose if I buy the HF engine support, drop the pan myself and clean it, a shop might weld it in for somewhere between $30 and $80. Good time to do something about the OPN and/or oil pump shaft and sprocket.

[Dave_B]

LNC, that was my thinking too. When I do the oil pan gasket, I'll look into the baffle, OPN and pump shaft.

[Katu]

Like the OP I don't enjoy the sound of lifter tick, even if it is "normal". After autocross last year I had some very noticeable lifter tick. This year I switched to Castrol 0w30 (euro), it's supposed to be a little thicker than BMW Castrol 5w30. I also put about 1/4 quart of extra oil after already reaching the full line on the dipstick. I didn't have any noticeable tick this past weekend at autocross. Could be coincidence though!

[wertyu78]

I'm running Getman Castrol and still have the tick. This oil is awesome though.

[az3579]

Just out of curiosity, why are some hesitant to put an extra 1/2 quart in? Most of the cars burn oil anyway so that 1/2 extra will eventually come down to full. :dunno

This is normal though. You can take any one of our ZHPs and they will tick after an autocross. I do agree, this shouldn't be a problem, but it is what it is.

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[terraphantm]

I've heard of E36 guys fitting EuroS50 / S54 oil pans to help prevent the oil starvation. Don't know if it'd fit the M54b30

[Dave_B]

Just out of curiosity, why are some hesitant to put an extra 1/2 quart in? Most of the cars burn oil anyway so that 1/2 extra will eventually come down to full. :dunno

This is normal though. You can take any one of our ZHPs and they will tick after an autocross. I do agree, this shouldn't be a problem, but it is what it is.

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I look at it this way... would you starve your brain repeatedly of oxygen if a group of Dr's told you it was normal? I'm sure some Navy pilots experience this

Sure, we all might not see signs right away of an issue and honestly you may not have an issue if you do this say once a year. But there is an issue with this. We only get to hear the lifters... what else is going on in the head? What do the cam journals look like after repeated abuse?

At the end of the day, for me I have to weigh in how much I will track my car. If I anticipate more than once a year, I'll be putting a baffle in. To answer the question about why not just add more oil. Simple, I don't believe in band aiding the issue.

All this said, I'm also a stubborn son of an ASE mechanic who owns an Indy shop. Take it with a grain of salt. :)

[M0nk3y]

It isn't band aiding the issue. I have multiple friends who run S52s autocross and track who all add extra oil. It is a nature of the beast.

Regardless, on the track the lifter tick would be less of an issue since the oil will settle on the straights between turns. Autocross is much more pronounced because you are sloshing around the oil left and right constantly.

[Dave_B]

I respect your opinion and don't want you to sway from what you or others may choose to do.

IMHO however, there is a permanent fix for this. It's a baffled oil pan. It removes the issue completely. Again, all dependent on how much track time you may see.

[M0nk3y]

I respect your opinion and don't want you to sway from what you or others may choose to do.

IMHO however, there is a permanent fix for this. It's a baffled oil pan. It removes the issue completely. Again, all dependent on how much track time you may see.

I have a semi-dry sump. Overfill would not be good for my engine :)


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[az3579]

I respect your opinion and don't want you to sway from what you or others may choose to do.

IMHO however, there is a permanent fix for this. It's a baffled oil pan. It removes the issue completely. Again, all dependent on how much track time you may see.

I've heard reports of this issue still happening with a baffle. I wouldn't out my money on that just yet without doing extensive research...

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[LivesNearCostco]

I wonder if it has to do with quick transitions (AutoX) vs. sustained high G's in one direction. I'm assuming the baffle only slows down oil movement within the pan and if you stay in that turn long enough, the oil can still all slosh to one side through the holes in the baffle. This is speculative on my part, though I only recall hearing racers (on R-comps or full race slicks) complain of oil starvation with a baffle.

[Dave_B]

Not comparing apples to oranges here...

From my previous track experience (non Auto-X) at Sebring, VIR, CMP and Gingerman in a totally different platform. I knew I got oil starvation prior to a baffle when the car would fall out of Vtec (utilizes oil pressure) Doing this starves critical engine parts and I've seen 2 incidents personally of spun bearings due to oil starvation. Now, I'm sure our engines are completely different here, but the same principles apply. Oil is critical in lubricating moving parts. It's critical to bearing health. Oil is critical to journals.

The baffled oil pan is designed to keep engine oil around the pickup. Sure, some will move around, but based on volume it not going to just slosh through holes in the baffles. I tried to find pics, but don't have any in my photobucket account to show the baffles and design. Trap door baffle pans are the best. They are similar to a one way valve. Here's a not related to BMW video of one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eapLmnkErQ

[bcleaver]

Wet sump so don't worry about adding a little extra oil, but I have not found that to be very effective. It's what most e36 and e46 owners do at bmw cca autox events and the paddock is just a sea of lifter tick still. The general solution is an oil pan baffle (as mentioned on here already). I can attest to it working at removing lifter tick at track and autox for me, but know another driver with a zhp that also has a baffle and still has tick, so it may or may not solve the problem completely.

If you plan on doing a lot of events getting a baffle is just a good idea in general. Go ahead and get an oil pump nut lock of some sort while you're in there.

[M0nk3y]

Wet sump so don't worry about adding a little extra oil, but I have not found that to be very effective. It's what most e36 and e46 owners do at bmw cca autox events and the paddock is just a sea of lifter tick still. The general solution is an oil pan baffle (as mentioned on here already). I can attest to it working at removing lifter tick at track and autox for me, but know another driver with a zhp that also has a baffle and still has tick, so it may or may not solve the problem completely.

If you plan on doing a lot of events getting a baffle is just a good idea in general. Go ahead and get an oil pump nut lock of some sort while you're in there.

Wouldn't a baffle technically knock them out of any Stock or Street Class into a prepared?

[Dave_B]

I wouldn't think so. There are no advantages to lowering lap times by doing it. But I could be wrong.

[M0nk3y]

I wouldn't think so. There are no advantages to lowering lap times by doing it. But I could be wrong.

SCCA Solo rules are very strict. If it doesn't specify that it is allowed then it is not allowed.


EDIT: Checked the rulebook. You're good to go if you run in STX. Stock class (or RTR) is not allowed.


14.10 ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
A. Oil pans and pickups may be modified or substituted. Addition or
modification of windage trays or crankshaft scrapers is not allowed.

[az3579]

I wonder if it has to do with quick transitions (AutoX) vs. sustained high G's in one direction. I'm assuming the baffle only slows down oil movement within the pan and if you stay in that turn long enough, the oil can still all slosh to one side through the holes in the baffle. This is speculative on my part, though I only recall hearing racers (on R-comps or full race slicks) complain of oil starvation with a baffle.

I've never had lifter tick on the track. Specifically, at Lime Rock Park and Watkins Glen International. It only happens in auto-x.


I think it would be disallowed in certain classes because it offers an advantage over stock. That's probably one reason why it's allowed in a slightly modified class versus stock. It may not allow faster laptimes, but it still provides a benefit that can't be had off the factory floor.

[Stewbie]

Just experienced this for the first time at the autocross today. It only happened after my very last run of the day. Had me a bit worried. I texted my buddy who said he's experienced it on his 320i and that it goes away, which it did for me in a couple of minutes. Today was actually the 4th event I've run since getting my car, but I never experienced the lifter tick before today. Guess I was driving my car harder than its ever been driven before. Autocross school last month appears to have made me faster. :-)


http://youtu.be/81JPvqItP7g

[bcleaver]

I've never had lifter tick on the track. Specifically, at Lime Rock Park and Watkins Glen International. It only happens in auto-x.


I think it would be disallowed in certain classes because it offers an advantage over stock. That's probably one reason why it's allowed in a slightly modified class versus stock. It may not allow faster laptimes, but it still provides a benefit that can't be had off the factory floor.

It's a silly rule not to allow it in stock trim as I don't see any advantage. Slogging around more oil and more weight. It was legal in stx so I did it, but would have been annoyed not having that kind of insurance at the track just to meet an arbitrary rule. If the only benefit is it might keep your engine from letting go, I fail to see how that's restricted.

[terraphantm]

A lot of the SCCA rules seem unnecessarily restrictive, while others seem to give unfair advantages to other cars. For example, since we have cats in our manifolds, we can't really change our headers. Cars that have cats in their midpipe can. And then to add insult to injury, cars that have a set of secondary cats can delete their primary cats. That rule gimps our cars significantly, while it allows others (E9x M3, Z4M, WRX, Evo, etc...) to potentially get huge gains.

With regards to the oil pump and pan... I think the rationale is that if you don't have to worry about starvation, you can sustain more Gs and therefore potentially improve your laptimes. I think the benefit would be miniscule to a lot of the allowed changes though.

Personally, I just don't care what class I'm in. I'll never be competitive regardless, so I'll just mod my car how I like it and just aim to improve my own time

[M0nk3y]

A lot of the SCCA rules seem unnecessarily restrictive, while others seem to give unfair advantages to other cars. For example, since we have cats in our manifolds, we can't really change our headers. Cars that have cats in their midpipe can. And then to add insult to injury, cars that have a set of secondary cats can delete their primary cats. That rule gimps our cars significantly, while it allows others (E9x M3, Z4M, WRX, Evo, etc...) to potentially get huge gains.

With regards to the oil pump and pan... I think the rationale is that if you don't have to worry about starvation, you can sustain more Gs and therefore potentially improve your laptimes. I think the benefit would be miniscule to a lot of the allowed changes though.

Personally, I just don't care what class I'm in. I'll never be competitive regardless, so I'll just mod my car how I like it and just aim to improve my own time

Exactly. The last paragraph sums it up.

Until the 128i is paid off, then it will become my STX car with track only in its mind. Until then I use the Z4M for fun

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[prowlerflyer]

We have tiptoed around a couple of basic assumptions. Lifter tick and oil starvation are not normal operating conditions, period.

The N52 is a motor designed for street use, and some of us are adapting it for track work. No matter what, real racing motors, unless forced buy rules, do not use wet sumps. An Accusump may be a good alternative.

A dry sump would be optimal, but may not work because of rules or budget. Overfilling a wet sump may work, but there are risks associated. Too much oil can cause foaming or crank drag if the crank contacts the oil in the sump. Both of which can cause engine failure.

Steve

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