26mm M3 swaybar install with Powerflex bushings and adjustable end-links. What else to take care of ?

[wertyu78]

I picked up a 26mm M3 swaybar for a whopping $30 yesterday. I'm going to clean it up and paint it this weekend, then install with new Powerflex bushings. Along with the new swaybar I plan on replacing the old/tired swaybar end-links.


I use the car for DD and Autox/technical mountain driving. I find myself having to trail brake the car to get it to rotate. Before I tackle the worn suspension with coilovers, I plan on trying to keep the car flatter through the corner.



1. Are adjustable swaybar end-links really worth it? I don't mind spending the money if it yields me good results. I just don't want to pay for a feature I wont use.

2. I've already replaced my FLCAB's, are there any other bushings I should tackle while I'm in there?

[Ryans323i]

I'm glad you brought this up. I've always wondered about sway bars and adjustable endlinks. What makes the aftermarket ones better than the ones already on our cars?

[BimmerWill]

I'm glad you brought this up. I've always wondered about sway bars and adjustable endlinks. What makes the aftermarket ones better than the ones already on our cars?

Im not sure what the stock size is for our sway bars but I know that the bigger the diameter of the bar the better it responds and keeps the car more evenly planted on the pavement.

I can't say personally how much of a difference it makes but I know of people who swear by bigger sway bars.

Wert,
As far as additional items have you done your Rtabs? I replaced mine with powerflex urethane ones and it seemed to help keeping the rear end mire stable as well as eliminated some unusual tire wear I was getting on the inside wall that was eating through my tires.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[wertyu78]

I believe it is 23.5mm for the stock ZHP swaybar. RTAB's will be done soon. I forgot about those.
Im not sure what the stock size is for our sway bars but I know that the bigger the diameter of the bar the better it responds and keeps the car more evenly planted on the pavement.

I can't say personally how much of a difference it makes but I know of people who swear by bigger sway bars.

Wert,
As far as additional items have you done your Rtabs? I replaced mine with powerflex urethane ones and it seemed to help keeping the rear end mire stable as well as eliminated some unusual tire wear I was getting on the inside wall that was eating through my tires.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[danewilson77]

M0nk3y (Kyle) has great input here.

[M0nk3y]

Looking at your sig and OP post, it doesn't appear you have suspension modifications, correct me if I am wrong.

The only point with adjustable endlinks is to avoid pre-load from the sway bar. When you lower a car, the endlinks can only rotate with the car so much before it cannot physically avoid pre-load on a bar. When you add pre-load to a sway bar, you defeat the whole purpose...so that is when you need to add adjustable endlinks. If you see yourself getting suspension, get adjustable endlinks. However, my friend and a very knowledgeable guy who works at TCK Racing has his car lowered (E36 M) on TCK DA Coilovers and runs OEM endlinks and does not have any pre-load.

A front sway bar will help level out the front end, but will increase understeer. Tires corner best when they are loaded equally. There is more cornering force the more you load it, but it suffers from diminishing returns. For example tires with 40%/60% load on left/right will generate more overall cornering force than 20%/80%, even though the overall downward force on both tires is the same.

What an anti-roll bar does is resist body roll by increasing the downward load on the outside tire. Generally it corners flatter but with less grip. The only way to combat this and regain that grip is camber, usually.


Lastly, if you really want the rear end to rotate just remove the rear swaybar.

Before (OEM 27mm Swaybar, Toyo T1R Tires)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/300741_2077232218632_5052462_n.jpg

After: (H&R 30mm E46M Swaybar, Hankook RS3s)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/891873_10200095587500680_1612932680_o.jpg

[terraphantm]

I think there's more to it then the absolute thickness though. Otherwise you wouldn't have adjustable sway bars. And then the E46 M3 CSL has a 30.8mm sway bar (4.8mm larger than stock) in the front, and 22.5mm in the rear (1mm larger than stock). I'm pretty confident that the CSL does not understeer any more than a standard M3

One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade beyond my stock sway bars is that the sway bar mounts are weak. I've read way too many cases of those mounts ripping out on the Z4 boards. Admittedly I haven't seen it as much on the E46 side, but still. At that point I'd rather just get stiffer springs


Also for E46s, an option for shorter endlinks is to use E36 endlinks

[wertyu78]

What a great read. I learned quite a bit. I appreciate the reply. I do plan on going with an aftermarket suspension setup in the near future. However, I don't plan on going super low either. I think I'll be fine with OEM endlinks. I'll see how the M3 swaybar works out with new end-links and report back.




Looking at your sig and OP post, it doesn't appear you have suspension modifications, correct me if I am wrong.

The only point with adjustable endlinks is to avoid pre-load from the sway bar. When you lower a car, the endlinks can only rotate with the car so much before it cannot physically avoid pre-load on a bar. When you add pre-load to a sway bar, you defeat the whole purpose...so that is when you need to add adjustable endlinks. If you see yourself getting suspension, get adjustable endlinks. However, my friend and a very knowledgeable guy who works at TCK Racing has his car lowered (E36 M) on TCK DA Coilovers and runs OEM endlinks and does not have any pre-load.

A front sway bar will help level out the front end, but will increase understeer. Tires corner best when they are loaded equally. There is more cornering force the more you load it, but it suffers from diminishing returns. For example tires with 40%/60% load on left/right will generate more overall cornering force than 20%/80%, even though the overall downward force on both tires is the same.

What an anti-roll bar does is resist body roll by increasing the downward load on the outside tire. Generally it corners flatter but with less grip. The only way to combat this and regain that grip is camber, usually.


Lastly, if you really want the rear end to rotate just remove the rear swaybar.

Before (OEM 27mm Swaybar, Toyo T1R Tires)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/300741_2077232218632_5052462_n.jpg

After: (H&R 30mm E46M Swaybar, Hankook RS3s)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/891873_10200095587500680_1612932680_o.jpg

[wertyu78]

Your point is noted. I'll look into the E36 end-link option as well.
I think there's more to it then the absolute thickness though. Otherwise you wouldn't have adjustable sway bars. And then the E46 M3 CSL has a 30.8mm sway bar (4.8mm larger than stock) in the front, and 22.5mm in the rear (1mm larger than stock). I'm pretty confident that the CSL does not understeer any more than a standard M3

One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade beyond my stock sway bars is that the sway bar mounts are weak. I've read way too many cases of those mounts ripping out on the Z4 boards. Admittedly I haven't seen it as much on the E46 side, but still. At that point I'd rather just get stiffer springs


Also for E46s, an option for shorter endlinks is to use E36 endlinks

[M0nk3y]

I think there's more to it then the absolute thickness though. Otherwise you wouldn't have adjustable sway bars. And then the E46 M3 CSL has a 30.8mm sway bar (4.8mm larger than stock) in the front, and 22.5mm in the rear (1mm larger than stock). I'm pretty confident that the CSL does not understeer any more than a standard M3

One reason I'm hesitant to upgrade beyond my stock sway bars is that the sway bar mounts are weak. I've read way too many cases of those mounts ripping out on the Z4 boards. Admittedly I haven't seen it as much on the E46 side, but still. At that point I'd rather just get stiffer springs


Also for E46s, an option for shorter endlinks is to use E36 endlinks

Tires, springs, shocks, and sway bars all absorb energy and the mass of the vehicle during braking, acceleration, and cornering.


Stiffer sway bars reduce body roll and help mid cornering. Reduction of body roll means that mass will be loaded onto the other components, and namely the tires as those are the only points of contact to the actual ground. The tires now have to work harder on the corner end that has less body roll. If you were using 100% of the tires grip already in cornering, and now you are asking the tire to handle 20% more grip due to weight transfer from a stiffer sway bar, the tire will break loose. Because you know, it can't do 120% of the work considering the limit is 100%.

This will create understeer.

Because the CSL M3 has higher performance tires, it can therefore have more corner grip without exceeding its front end grip.

Adjustable sway bars are for different conditions. I can't run 30mm on a airport concrete because it is super grippy and I'll understeer very easily (and I have learned this from experience). On other surface conditions where perhaps my car is too much oversteer (aka last weekend) I can stiffen up the front end by going to 31mm and increasing front grip.


Mounts do get ripped out, but it is an easy reinforcement. Stiffer springs is not the easy solution to reduce body roll, you can actually have negative effects in doing so because you cannot properly load the tires.

[nike001]

I've been tossing the idea back and forth of getting some upgraded sways (H&R: 28F, 21R IIRC), so these posts are helping my edumacation

[terraphantm]

Tires, springs, shocks, and sway bars all absorb energy and the mass of the vehicle during braking, acceleration, and cornering.


Stiffer sway bars reduce body roll and help mid cornering. Reduction of body roll means that mass will be loaded onto the other components, and namely the tires as those are the only points of contact to the actual ground. The tires now have to work harder on the corner end that has less body roll. If you were using 100% of the tires grip already in cornering, and now you are asking the tire to handle 20% more grip due to weight transfer from a stiffer sway bar, the tire will break loose. Because you know, it can't do 120% of the work considering the limit is 100%.

This will create understeer.

Because the CSL M3 has higher performance tires, it can therefore have more corner grip without exceeding its front end grip.

Adjustable sway bars are for different conditions. I can't run 30mm on a airport concrete because it is super grippy and I'll understeer very easily (and I have learned this from experience). On other surface conditions where perhaps my car is too much oversteer (aka last weekend) I can stiffen up the front end by going to 31mm and increasing front grip.


Mounts do get ripped out, but it is an easy reinforcement. Stiffer springs is not the easy solution to reduce body roll, you can actually have negative effects in doing so because you cannot properly load the tires.

I never said a front sway bar doesn't create understeer. The point I was trying to make is that there's more to it than absolute diameter. Solid vs Hollow makes a decent difference, as will the overall geometry. I also don't think the CSL's tires are much of an excuse. Yes it does have more absolute grip, but that grip isn't infinite. It will let loose eventually. The real answer probably has to do with the wider front track and generally differently tuned springs rates and dampers. Not that I've personally driven one, but iirc almost all testimony indicates the CSL is a decent bit more tail happy than the standard m3. I know my own car definitely shifted towards oversteer just by putting spacers on the front (need them for winter tires, changing wheels next year)


Anyway, I don't think it's appropriate to get super stiff sway bars on stock springs. The sway bar mounts that point are under more load than intended. You can have negative effects from any suspension mod, even sways. The key is to select components that are well matched to your car, driving style, etc...

[Imola.ZHP]

Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I would just bump this one.

I am on an H&R Sport Cup kit, my car only came down about 0.5" from stock. I am currently running stock end links, but was told I should go ahead and replace my end links as I'm doing the second stage of my suspension re-do (first stage was the H&R Cup Kit). My new RTAB's are installed, my FCAB's are on the way, I'm going to check my ball joints (FCA's) on Sunday. I am trying to determine if I should go shorter on my end links or if its necessary considering the very mild drop from factory.

Thoughts?! Is there anything else I need to do? I replaced FSM's and RSM's when I put the cup kit in. While this car did see some sweet auto-x action back when I first got her, she is just a daily driver now.

Thanks!

[danewilson77]

You have stock endlinks installed with the H&R cupkit? I would stay with those.

[Imola.ZHP]

^ yup, they came off and went right back on, no problems...

[echo46]

Agree, I would also stay with stock.

[Imola.ZHP]

I'm chasing a "popping" noise in the front, I'm pretty sure its my FCAB's, could it be end-links? The research I've done (google searching) says the cup kit doesn't require adjustable end-links. Then I read another thread of a popping issue with the cup kit where adjustable end links were suggested, but it was never updated to say if that cured it or not, that was on a mini too...

EDIT: I'll take them off and see if the noise goes away, that should do the trick, right?

What about tie-rod ends?

[echo46]

About a year ago I had the popping sound in the front. Popping occured at slower speeds and when in reverse. I replaced the end links and the popping disappeared. When I inspected them they were in pretty bad shape. I replaced with Lemforder/

[LivesNearCostco]

I read somewhere that you only get preload on the swaybar if you lower one side more than the other. If both sides are at the same height and swaybar links are same length (or disconnected), there should be no load on the swaybar. If you put more weight on one side (e.g. passenger, or driver eats really big turkey dinner) or lower one side more than the other for corner balancing, then the swaybar will be preloaded. You can use adjustable end links to eliminate this preload.

In the back, adjustable end-links also help prevent the swaybar from hitting things. The stock rear swaybar just squeezes in there so if the aftermarket sway is thicker, longer at the ends (for adjustability), or you lower your car a lot, it may hit the axle half-shaft or lower control arm and you can adjust the end link to stop that.

[danewilson77]

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?9704-F-S-Pair-of-E46-Lemforder-endlinks

:)

[Imola.ZHP]

About a year ago I had the popping sound in the front. Popping occured at slower speeds and when in reverse. I replaced the end links and the popping disappeared. When I inspected them they were in pretty bad shape. I replaced with Lemforder/

This is the noise, I always back into my side of my garage, so as I pass the driveway, slowly, come to a stop, put the car in reverse and as I start to back up there is always a "pop." I was thinking (and already ordered FCAB'S). I think sometimes it happens going forward at stop lights too, but it's more difficult to hear...


I read somewhere that you only get preload on the swaybar if you lower one side more than the other. If both sides are at the same height and swaybar links are same length (or disconnected), there should be no load on the swaybar. If you put more weight on one side (e.g. passenger, or driver eats really big turkey dinner) or lower one side more than the other for corner balancing, then the swaybar will be preloaded. You can use adjustable end links to eliminate this preload.

In the back, adjustable end-links also help prevent the swaybar from hitting things. The stock rear swaybar just squeezes in there so if the aftermarket sway is thicker, longer at the ends (for adjustability), or you lower your car a lot, it may hit the axle half-shaft or lower control arm and you can adjust the end link to stop that.

Thanks for the info!

[wertyu78]

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?9704-F-S-Pair-of-E46-Lemforder-endlinks

:)

Damn! I already bought some.

[wertyu78]

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?9704-F-S-Pair-of-E46-Lemforder-endlinks

:)

Damn! I already bought some.

[LivesNearCostco]

I forgot to add if you have coilovers that lower the strut end-link bracket, that would make your swaybar ends tilt downward. Using shorter end links would return your swaybar to horizontal. Most coilovers let you adjust spring perch and right height without moving the swaybar bracket, but some have the bracket on a threaded collar that can be lowered. Or the entire strut body can be shortened. Or the swaybar bracket is placed lower than normal to make room for the spring perch threads. Anyhooo... lower the brackets enough and you might need shortened end links.

Also heard somewhere that if you put an E46 M front swaybar on an E46 non-M, adjustable end links work better because the M3 swaybar ends are at a different angle than the non-M swaybar ends. Not sure if true.

[Imola.ZHP]

Ok, so as for tie rod ends; I just need the "end" with he balljoint right? Not the entire tie rod assembly...

Is here a decent aftermarket brand? Or stick with OEM?

[danewilson77]

Naa...you need the tie rod. PC 4 and 5. They do not have replaceable ball joints there.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EV53&mospid=47725&btnr=32_0940&hg=32&fg=25

[danewilson77]

Ahhh....I suppose you could get away with getting just PC 6 and 7 though.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/32106774220/

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/32106774221/

[echo46]

Again, my vote on the popping is the end links.

[Imola.ZHP]

Ahhh....I suppose you could get away with getting just PC 6 and 7 though.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/32106774220/

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/32106774221/

Thats where I was confused, I don't see why I can't save some cash and just get the "ends."


Again, my vote on the popping is the end links.

I think your right, I'm going to go ahead and refresh the tie-rod ends, FCAB's and possibly the CA's. I still need to get her in the air and check the CA ball joints. I'll probably have time next week...

[echo46]

Can't hurt replacing the CAs and FCABS. I think you will see marked improvement.

[johnrando]

I was told to install adjustable end links with my H&R kit.

[Imola.ZHP]

^ hmmm...

[Imola.ZHP]

Sorry to bump an old thread. After nearly a year I finally got the new end-links put on. AsI was installing them I noticed that they were just barely longer than the OEM's (and I was under the impression the new ones were OEM's, perhaps for a different e46). Too late to return/exchange so I need to get them off and sell them myself. Of course the popping is still there. Suggestions for adjustable end-links? In searching I found this thread, lol.

[WOLFN8TR]

I just installed a set of the Status Gruppe adjustable End Links and they are high quality.

UUC (http://www.bavauto.com/fland.asp?part=SBLF%20E46)

Status Gruppe (http://www.statusgruppe.com/collections/2001-06-bmw-e46-m3/products/bmw-adjustable-front-sway-bar-links)

Ground Control (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php?II=677)

[QC_ZHP]

I'm shopping for a set at the moment, too. I was pretty set on GC until you posted the Status Gruppe. That price is attractive.

[WOLFN8TR]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/ga8azuvy.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/y6u8esez.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/erany5yb.jpg

[danewilson77]

:drool

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[Imola.ZHP]

Awesome, I'm going to order some of those SG's and hope the OEM's I put on are still ok when I change them out so I can sell them.

[danewilson77]

KW's ride nice, don't they Wolfy?

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[slater]

i used to build my own adjustable endlinks, typically about $50/pair, using high-quality PFTE-lined spherical bearings.

peter

[QC_ZHP]

Just ordered a set of the Status Gruppe links. $120 shipped...not bad.

[Imola.ZHP]

^ I got mine in yesterday. Somehow I found a promotional code and got them for $105 shipped.

My knee is out of commission for a few days though, maybe I can get them on Monday or Tuesday.

[QC_ZHP]

Damn, I coulda saved $15! Oh well. Mine came in Thursday while I was at work but required a signature. They never redelivered today so hopefully I can pick them up sometime tomorrow.

[WOLFN8TR]

KW's ride nice, don't they Wolfy?

The friendliest forum on the planet.

Missed this Sorry...

Yes they do. :headbang