Am I Killing 1st Gear??

[EmDeeAr]

Is it hard on the synchronizers and transmission overall to shift the car into first gear while rolling to a stop?

I do this all the time when approaching slow turns that don't require a stop, or in preparation for quick stops. I definitely do it at speeds less than 10 mph; I would say less than 5 mph is more accurate.

When I do this, it's not "hard" to put the shifter into first gear, but there is a little more resistance (nothing even close to the resistance of reverse or anything, however). In fact, first gear sometimes feels a little vague when I shift into it while moving. Sometimes, I'm not sure if it's going to let me into gear... but it always does. Sometimes when it goes in, it clatters a little bit from underneath the car. But then again, if I select second gear while coasting (5 mph or less), it also kind of clunks/clatters...

Honestly, I have been doing this ever since I started driving manual, which was 4 years ago. Prior to this ZHP, I had an E36 M3 (manual) from 95,000 miles to 124,000 miles, and I had this same "first gear while rolling" habit. It was fine when I sold it...

Or am I way off here? Is this something that's detrimental to the transmission?

I have done a TON of reading on this, even about other cars and brands. However, the impression of a lot of the threads is that they are talking about downshifting into first to engine break at higher speeds (20 mph +). Obviously, this is terrible. However, I am talking about a quick shift into first at 5 mph just to get going quickly again. Second gear just bogs at 5 mph, and is frankly extremely slow at this speed.

I just picked up my ZHP about two weeks ago, and so I definitely want to drive it right. I've driven about 300 miles like this with this car, but probably less. The car has almost 88,000 miles in total. I hope I didn't already trash my first gear synchro :facepalm

Thanks for the help guys. You know that persisting feeling when you think you damaged something......

-Mike

[SoarinZHP]

I believe it is hard on the synchros. I do the same thing. I figure it will cause premature wear. And I agree completely that 2nd is just not the right gear for slow, rolling starts. I'm sure more knowledgeable mafiosos will chime in with more technical answers to the questions

[SoarinZHP]

Oh... Hi! Welcome! i see it is your first post! I hope you enjoy it here.

[Hermes]

there is more than enough torque in 2nd to start... don't use 1st if you're not at a complete stop.

[M0nk3y]

Your car is making that noise and giving you a hard time for a reason. It doesn't like that.

Plenty of torque to start in 2nd from a roll. Hell, my 325xi with no torque did that fine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

Welcome. Feel free to introduce yourself in the new members thread.

[Newjack]

Your car is making that noise and giving you a hard time for a reason. It doesn't like that.

Plenty of torque to start in 2nd from a roll. Hell, my 325xi with no torque did that fine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This. You just have to feather the clutch a little when starting in second at low speeds to avoid clunking. The only time I ever shift into first is if I'm barely moving, or moving super slow up a hill and towards a stop sign. If you are moving slow enough you should feel the shifted just fall into place.

I had this exact same question when I first got my car. Welcome!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[EmDeeAr]

there is more than enough torque in 2nd to start... don't use 1st if you're not at a complete stop.

I'm sure 4 gear could get me going from a complete stop too. But, I mean, second from a complete stop feels like a truck. It's not peppy, at all.

So, what do you guys do to get a quick start when you are moving slow? I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that I have to just "deal" with the sluggishness of starting in 2nd gear from a slow roll.

[Dave_B]

Welcome to the board.

I agree with what another member said, the shift knob should fall right in when your at the right speed.

[BRGcoopahS]

I will admit to putting it in first at 5 mph or slower. Sometimes I will do it in 2nd just because I know its beter for the trans, but I want that immediate power. A 2nd gear roll takes an extra 1k rpm or so to really get moving.

[EmDeeAr]

I will admit to putting it in first at 5 mph or slower. Sometimes I will do it in 2nd just because I know its beter for the trans, but I want that immediate power. A 2nd gear roll takes an extra 1k rpm or so to really get moving.

Totally hear ya on the immediate power thing.

Does yours clatter a little too?

[LivesNearCostco]

I've been wondering the same thing. Shifting into first is usually easy from a standstill or at 2-3 mph. At 5-10 mph, sometimes it goes easy, sometimes it doesn't want to go until I slow more. I can go in 2nd gear from a 2mph roll but it takes extra RPM and slipping the clutch.

[Avetiso]

I go off of second whenever I am rolling, and I never find it difficult on the clutch to get it going. I am always below 1k RPMs when engaging the clutch from a roll while in second gear. It is not difficult at all, and it only take a few seconds to get into the power band.

Also, even though it may not be ideal for your synx, you might be overreacting a little. You aren't going to wreck your synchro in 5k miles from doing that. Probably not even 50k. Just be careful with your transmission and don't make it do something it doesn't want to. As for me, if I get resistance from a certain gear when I try to switch into it, I either rev match or choose a different gear.

[BRGcoopahS]

Totally hear ya on the immediate power thing.

Does yours clatter a little too?

yessir

[EmDeeAr]

I go off of second whenever I am rolling, and I never find it difficult on the clutch to get it going. I am always below 1k RPMs when engaging the clutch from a roll while in second gear. It is not difficult at all, and it only take a few seconds to get into the power band.

Also, even though it may not be ideal for your synx, you might be overreacting a little. You aren't going to wreck your synchro in 5k miles from doing that. Probably not even 50k. Just be careful with your transmission and don't make it do something it doesn't want to. As for me, if I get resistance from a certain gear when I try to switch into it, I either rev match or choose a different gear.

Ahhh what a relief, lol. I can get a little obsessive sometimes, so you are probably right.

I've only had the car about 300 miles... maybe 200.

[EmDeeAr]

yessir

Hm, ok thanks.

Vert in your sig looks great btw.

[Hermes]

I'm sure 4 gear could get me going from a complete stop too. But, I mean, second from a complete stop feels like a truck. It's not peppy, at all.

So, what do you guys do to get a quick start when you are moving slow? I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that I have to just "deal" with the sluggishness of starting in 2nd gear from a slow roll.

blip the throttle if you really want a rolling start off the line in first.

In my 80rwhp 2002 it needs about 2000rpm to downshift into first at around 10mph, likely around the same point in your 200rwhp ZHP... the gearbox is not designed to race off the line

[M0nk3y]

I'm sure 4 gear could get me going from a complete stop too. But, I mean, second from a complete stop feels like a truck. It's not peppy, at all.

So, what do you guys do to get a quick start when you are moving slow? I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that I have to just "deal" with the sluggishness of starting in 2nd gear from a slow roll.

Are you going wide open throttle at stops?

I've never thought: this 2nd gear sucks, it is slow off of the line.

1st gear is fairly short, relatively speaking. You don't go to first gear autocrossing (unless you are a s2000. Different story) or on the track, why do it on the street.

5 mph is more than enough speed to get out of 2nd gear fine.

Worst case, throw the clutch in, rev it and pull the clutch out to get the car going. But then you're slipping the clutch.



I'm reality, I think this original question is about stop signs, or red light right turns. And if that is the case, come to a stop and use first gear.



Drive a car with shorter gears and you'll see how pointless it really is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[terraphantm]

If you must downshift to first, learn how to double clutch. That way you'll "bypass" the synchro and get a very smooth transition.

The only times I ever find it useful to downshift to first are at slow ez-pass lanes. I also once was forced to downshift to 1st in my ZHP on a hill climb route since my car didn't have enough torque to pull through otherwise.

[EmDeeAr]

Are you going wide open throttle at stops?

I've never thought: this 2nd gear sucks, it is slow off of the line.

1st gear is fairly short, relatively speaking. You don't go to first gear autocrossing (unless you are a s2000. Different story) or on the track, why do it on the street.

5 mph is more than enough speed to get out of 2nd gear fine.

Worst case, throw the clutch in, rev it and pull the clutch out to get the car going. But then you're slipping the clutch.



I'm reality, I think this original question is about stop signs, or red light right turns. And if that is the case, come to a stop and use first gear.



Drive a car with shorter gears and you'll see how pointless it really is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Full throttle? Sometimes, yeah.

Even if not going full throttle, shifting to first gear is definitely not pointless. Second gear literally burbles and bogs at 5 mph. I don't see the pointlessness in switching to a gear that I would normally otherwise use to get going with.

Obviously the car can get going from 2nd gear, but that doesn't mean it's, well, fun. 2nd gear is fun at like, 40 mph.

[Hermes]

Full throttle? Sometimes, yeah.

Even if not going full throttle, shifting to first gear is definitely not pointless. Second gear literally burbles and bogs at 5 mph. I don't see the pointlessness in switching to a gear that I would normally otherwise use to get going with.

Obviously the car can get going from 2nd gear, but that doesn't mean it's, well, fun. 2nd gear is fun at like, 40 mph.

2nd bogs down because you completely drop the clutch... you have to be gentle when starting in 2nd.

Honestly, I think you haven't driven enough BMW's to know that 1st is a pointless gear. This was exemplified perfectly in the rare Getrag 245/6. If you really want to downshift into first so you can go WOT from a rolling stop off the line then you should buy a muscle car. BMW's are designed to take corners at speed, not drag race.

[EmDeeAr]

2nd bogs down because you completely drop the clutch... you have to be gentle when starting in 2nd.

Honestly, I think you haven't driven enough BMW's to know that 1st is a pointless gear. This was exemplified perfectly in the rare Getrag 245/6. If you really want to downshift into first so you can go WOT from a rolling stop off the line then you should buy a muscle car. BMW's are designed to take corners at speed, not drag race.

Probably right, I guess, as this is only my second one.

I'm about to head out for a drive now, so I'll try holding the clutch in longer for 2nd gear.

[Avetiso]

2nd bogs down because you completely drop the clutch... you have to be gentle when starting in 2nd.

Honestly, I think you haven't driven enough BMW's to know that 1st is a pointless gear. This was exemplified perfectly in the rare Getrag 245/6. If you really want to downshift into first so you can go WOT from a rolling stop off the line then you should buy a muscle car. BMW's are designed to take corners at speed, not drag race.

+1. Second gear is pretty much useless. I shift into second at 2k rpms just to get out unless I'm flogging it.

You'll see with time.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[EmDeeAr]

+1. Second gear is pretty much useless. I shift into second at 2k rpms just to get out unless I'm flogging it.

You'll see with time.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Wait.... you mean first gear is useless, right?

To be honest, I've been wringing out first gear a lot the last few days. That's why I've been shifting to first while moving so much. I'll try to tone it down for sure.

[Avetiso]

Wait.... you mean first gear is useless, right?

To be honest, I've been wringing out first gear a lot the last few days. That's why I've been shifting to first while moving so much. I'll try to tone it down for sure.

Yes, my mistake. First is useless except for going from a stop.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Rovert]

If you must downshift to first, learn how to double clutch. That way you'll "bypass" the synchro and get a very smooth transition.


That's how I've learned how to do it. I double clutch 95% of my shifts to make shifting fun and bypass the synchro's for easy slip-in. I find in the city if I am maneuvering in and out of traffic or need to get in front of that one slow car before highway merge at low speed, 2nd doesn't doesn't have enough immediate power to jump the car out of the line. I'm sure I could get by with 2nd but I use first to make sure those "what if's" are not in the equation. I do it because I can. I can revmatch into 1st good enough that the shift knob slips in with minimal effort and then bang into 2nd quick enough but not so fast that I chirp. First can go up to 38MPH with the standard 3.07 diff and I use it if I need to but only if I know my downshift will land me at 4K from 2nd which is a more a split second feeling than a calculation in my head....that's too slow. LOL

But if your car is new to you then learn the tranny in a less aggressive manner before you use first when rolling. If you're not in tune with how 2nd gear feels/sounds subconsciously to 1st gear you can induce aggressive premature wear. I'm in no means an expert but I've been doing this since I've owned the car for 120,000 miles and everything checks out fine with awesome 2,500RPM launches every once and a while. I bought this car to learn the manual transmission fully, to have fun with it, and to flog it if I feel like I just stole my own car. LOL

[Hermes]

I do agree that double clutching is a good, it's a necessary skill when driving the manual 2002 F550 7.3L turbodiesel at my store because the synchro in first is completely shot.

I think first he should just get a feel for the lazy/smooth shifts in the 6 speed and get a better understanding for where the power is at speed/RPM load before he gets into double clutching/rev matching/heel-toe and other advanced techniques.

[Rovert]

^ #whathesays

[Avetiso]

I do agree that double clutching is a good, it's a necessary skill when driving the manual 2002 F550 7.3L turbodiesel at my store because the synchro in first is completely shot.

I think first he should just get a feel for the lazy/smooth shifts in the 6 speed and get a better understanding for where the power is at speed/RPM load before he gets into double clutching/rev matching/heel-toe and other advanced techniques.

7.3 ftw! Our excursion 7.3 is at 264k and still awesome.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[RITmusic2k]

The guys above have hit the nail on the head, but just to chime in, a rev match is the solution to your problem; If it's hard to get into 1st at your current vehicle speed, you need to raise your engine rpms and try again. A quick blip should let the gearshift fall right into the slot.

[EmDeeAr]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I just got back from a short work shift, and I tried the second gear technique. It definitely works, and is not as sluggish as I had thought it would be. If I don't have my guard up, though, I find myself still trying to grab first. It's a habit that I'm going to have to actively work on.

Just for my own piece of mind: Could I have already damaged the tranny/synchros as it is now? Or does damage only occur after thousands of miles of abuse? I know I'm being a worry wort.... but I just got her :/

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not exactly sure how "durable" transmissions are, and what exactly constitutes as being "hard" on a car. I want to be able to push it and enjoy it sometimes! At the same time, I don't want to overestimate the car's durability, and thus unknowingly drive it into the ground.

[Avetiso]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I just got back from a short work shift, and I tried the second gear technique. It definitely works, and is not as sluggish as I had thought it would be. If I don't have my guard up, though, I find myself still trying to grab first. It's a habit that I'm going to have to actively work on.

Just for my own piece of mind: Could I have already damaged the tranny/synchros as it is now? Or does damage only occur after thousands of miles of abuse? I know I'm being a worry wort.... but I just got her :/

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not exactly sure how "durable" transmissions are, and what exactly constitutes as being "hard" on a car. I want to be able to push it and enjoy it sometimes! At the same time, I don't want to overestimate the car's durability, and thus unknowingly drive it into the ground.

You're good. If anything breaks on the transmission anytime soon, I'd blame the PO.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Hermes]

Just change your transmission fluid since the car is new to you anyways - half Redline MTL, half 75W-90

[Rovert]

If the car feels fine then it's good. The E46 is a pretty hardy animal. I think it's just as durable as an old Corolla! Just aim for smoothness on everything you do and your car will go a long way!

[webster]

don't worry about breaking the car. outside of a money shift you're not going to do any major damage from the type of driving you're describing. the ZHP tranny is stout.

[Rovert]

I've grinded many a times mastering my transmission......it's still alive and shifting well!

[Avetiso]

I've grinded many a times mastering my transmission......it's still alive and shifting well!
I've actually ground twice in the past few days. I've noticed that as I get used to the transmission, I am more prone to not push the clutch in all the way = grind. No biggie, though.

[Rovert]

Yeah it happens when I am being lazy and shifting really slowly. So my foot ends up being lazy too and I don't press in all the way or I let out too quick...LOL. Sometimes I clutch in and try to correct but the grindage is locked in and you just have to get it into neutral and start over!

[Snowboardinwny]

Yeah it happens when I am being lazy and shifting really slowly. So my foot ends up being lazy too and I don't press in all the way or I let out too quick...LOL. Sometimes I clutch in and try to correct but the grindage is locked in and you just have to get it into neutral and start over!

So I'm not the only one lol

[terraphantm]

I do agree that double clutching is a good, it's a necessary skill when driving the manual 2002 F550 7.3L turbodiesel at my store because the synchro in first is completely shot.

I think first he should just get a feel for the lazy/smooth shifts in the 6 speed and get a better understanding for where the power is at speed/RPM load before he gets into double clutching/rev matching/heel-toe and other advanced techniques.

IMO rev matching should be learned immediately. Double clutching and heel toe can wait.


don't worry about breaking the car. outside of a money shift you're not going to do any major damage from the type of driving you're describing. the ZHP tranny is stout.

Far from it... The synchros are pretty soft on the ZHP transmissions. 2nd gear especially likes to bind. Z4M guys have the same transmission and complain of the same issues.

[RITmusic2k]

Just for my own piece of mind: Could I have already damaged the tranny/synchros as it is now? Or does damage only occur after thousands of miles of abuse? I know I'm being a worry wort.... but I just got her :/

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not exactly sure how "durable" transmissions are, and what exactly constitutes as being "hard" on a car. I want to be able to push it and enjoy it sometimes! At the same time, I don't want to overestimate the car's durability, and thus unknowingly drive it into the ground.

Good instincts. Transmissions in general are overbuilt, and if you're not experiencing any bad behavior then it's safe to say you've incurred no damage yourself.

That said, learn as much about rev-matching as you can and apply it all the time, and the 'comfort buffer' of knowing that you're going as easy on the tranny as possible will be in full effect.

It is perfectly possible to drive enthusiastically and shift at high revs without putting undue stress on the transmission, as long as you rev match.

[az3579]

From a durability standpoint, NOBODY here knows the durability of the transmission because there aren't nearly enough high-mileage ZHPs to tell whether the synchros are durable or not. There's maybe one or two guys here with over 200k, one nearing it, and everyone else is probably at half that or a little over half. We'll start seeing true results once the average mileage creeps to 200k or more. When we have more data, we shall find out.

It is a known fact that rev-matching will reduce the wear if done properly. That's the key part; some people rev match, but the rev matches end up not being perfect (sometimes far from it) and that just induces wear as well depending on how mismatched it really is. A rev match should feel as though nothing is going on in the drivetrain. If you feel any kind of bump or shake, you did it wrong. The only thing you should be feeling during a proper rev match is your senses being overjoyed from the sound of a perfect engine noise elevation!

[Avetiso]

From a durability standpoint, NOBODY here knows the durability of the transmission because there aren't nearly enough high-mileage ZHPs to tell whether the synchros are durable or not. There's maybe one or two guys here with over 200k, one nearing it, and everyone else is probably at half that or a little over half. We'll start seeing true results once the average mileage creeps to 200k or more. When we have more data, we shall find out.

It is a known fact that rev-matching will reduce the wear if done properly. That's the key part; some people rev match, but the rev matches end up not being perfect (sometimes far from it) and that just induces wear as well depending on how mismatched it really is. A rev match should feel as though nothing is going on in the drivetrain. If you feel any kind of bump or shake, you did it wrong. The only thing you should be feeling during a proper rev match is your senses being overjoyed from the sound of a perfect engine noise elevation!
I'm sure the materials in our boxes are similar enough to regular e46's and manual m3's to know that they are pretty reliable.

[Rovert]

The only thing you should be feeling during a proper rev match is your senses being overjoyed from the sound of a perfect engine noise elevation!

Dope! That's what happens....I thought something was wrong with my senses when I vroooom it into a lower gear. LOL. Love that explanation!!! FTW

[Hermes]

I'm sure the materials in our boxes are similar enough to regular e46's and manual m3's to know that they are pretty reliable.

most of those other E46's with higher mileage have the old 5 speed box, and the M3 gearbox is a much sturdier beast than the non-M due to the inherent need to be able to deal with 100 extra hp from the factory

[EmDeeAr]

Isn't the E46 330 5 speed gearbox the same as the one in the E36 M3?

[nike001]

I was under the impression that our transmissions are the same ones put into the Z4M's.

So if it's good enough for an actual ///M car, it should be good enough for our ZHP's.

[webster]

i was under the impression the ZHP tranny is the same used in the Z4 3.0si

[terraphantm]

most of those other E46's with higher mileage have the old 5 speed box, and the M3 gearbox is a much sturdier beast than the non-M due to the inherent need to be able to deal with 100 extra hp from the factory

Transmissions don't care about horsepower. It's torque that effects their longevity; the e46 m3 transmission is borrowed from the e39 m5 -- so it's way overbuilt for the M3. The transmission is a pretty old design though, so it is clunky (I don't really understand why they didn't use the 330d transmission like newer high HP/high torque BMWs)


Isn't the E46 330 5 speed gearbox the same as the one in the E36 M3?

Yes


I was under the impression that our transmissions are the same ones put into the Z4M's.

So if it's good enough for an actual ///M car, it should be good enough for our ZHP's.

It is the same, but the 270ish torque the z4M makes is about the limit for this ZF gearbox. Since there's a lower margin of safety, and since synchros are a known weak point, it's worth being extra careful. Grinding once in a while isnt a big deal. But I wouldn't drive it without rev matching properly.


i was under the impression the ZHP tranny is the same used in the Z4 3.0si
Also true, although those cars use a 228mm clutch instead of 240mm like the ZHP and Z4M (and most older BMWs)