Why ZHP, or any used BMW for that matter?

[illirep]

Before you crucify me, read below:

I'm obviously on the ZHP bandwagon, having owned several of them, with two in the current fleet. I think they represent an amazing value: in my opinion, the best combination of aesthetics, driving dynamics, practicality, and still manage to be relatively economical to own.

I say "relatively economical" because, as enthusiasts, we believe in preventative maintenance, we prefer the use of OEM parts which usually carry a sizable price-tag premium, we replace interior trim over tiny scratches, we have our steering wheels re-wrapped, and we mod.

On the positve side of the economical argument, we are at the point where they are fully depreciated, or some may argue have started to appreciate. There are not many cars that you can drive for a year or two and then later sell it for close to what you paid for it.

With all that said, I can't help but be tempted by the constant flow of automobile marketing that is simply everywhere: billboards, emails, tv, radio, internet, etc. You can currently lease a 2013 335xi MSport with a $55k price tag for $5xx per month with $2k ot of pocket, and a similary equipped 328xi for $4xx per month. This includes free maintenance, you likely aren't going to spend money on tires during those 36 months, you worry less about dents and dings as the car technically doesn't belong to you, etc. etc. etc.

For arguments sake, assume you financed your ZHP, and didn't pay cash, so that you are making payments in both scenarios. Assuming a $15k purchase price over 48 months and a decent interest rate puts you at $350 per month with $1k - $2k down for taxes and dmv fees. So for $100 to $200 more per month, you can have a brand new M-sport 3 series, with more power, more technology, marginally better fuel economy, no maintenance costs, no repair costs, etc.

Alternatively, soley for arguments sake, I call to attention that my local Honda dealer is running specials in which you can lease a brand new Honda Accord, for $199 per month and $1,500 total out of pocket. My brother just got one and it is a really nice looking car with a fairly impressive drive for a front wheel drive 4 banger.

I've gone down both routes before - selling a zhp to 'upgrade' to a 2011 335xi Msport. Selling the 2011 335xi for a brand new Camry - (when we found out baby no. 2 was on the way) lured by cheaper gas, assumed cheaper insurance (but it was actually the opposite), no need to have an extra set of winter wheels, my wife could actually use it with the auto trans, and most notably, a 50% reduction in my car payment. Both were great cars, one was far more powerful and one was far more practical, both were newer, technologically more advanced and faster (V6 camry). However, neither were 'special'.

I found myself in a vicious cycle, trading in and out of cars, trying to find the 'it' factor - the magical combination of financial responsibility, reliability, safety, practicality and most importantly, something that I enjoy getting into every morning and spending my hard earned money on. At the end of the day, the automobile should simply be a means to get from point A to point B, right?

After having owned the ridiculous list of cars in my signature (which omitts many non-BMW but notable vehicles such as Acura: TL, TSX, Integra Type R and GS-R, Lexus; IS300, GS300; Honda: Civic, Accord; Audi: A4, Toyota: Camry), I've finally come to terms with the fact that calling an automobile a simple means of transportation couldn't be further from the truth - at least to an auto enthusiast and/or someone that has experienced the ZHP.

Perhaps I'm way too analytical, and overthink my choice in cars a little too much. Perhaps, I'm crazy, as friends and family often say when it comes to the costant rotation of my driveway. Or perhaps, I finally found what I've been looking for all this time, and it has been right under my nose, on several different occassions, since 2007!

I am even more enthusiastic that we have this wonderful community here of people who also get it! With that said, has anyone else asked themselves similar questions or shared similar experiences on their journey to the ZHP? Or was this post too long and full of nonsense that you didn't read it..lol?

[johnrando]

Good thoughts. No one car is perfect, but it's been said many times, the ZHP is a near-perfect blend of doing so many things so well. I've given thought to all those options as you did before purchasing, and it comes down to preference. For example, I could have gotten a new Honda, and nothing against them (have owned 1 and currently a Pilot in the driveway for the wife), but you're driving a Honda. I could have leased a newer car, and I did lease cars until I found one I wanted to stick with. That was my goal, drive a few different cars, pick "the one", keep it, and some point not have to deal with car payments. So what it came down for me to was buying a car I love at a good price, and knowing I was going to keep it long term because it is beautiful, functional, DIY-able, etc. Once I did that, knowing that all those types of questions you (and car enthusiasts ask) are now gone away... it's a really nice place to be in. This car has the IT factor, no need to look further, no need to go back into down payments, car payments (once this is paid off), trying to find the right car, not knowing what you'll get with a used car, etc. It's almost like getting married, lots of things could distract you, but when you find the one, stick with it. :) So that's just me, but I totally get you having those thoughts.

[Mike V]

I've also had these same thoughts multiple times, especially when I was making payments on the ZHP. The biggest drawback for me is the mileage restriction of a lease. It probably wouldn't be a problem after we move this summer since I'll likely live closer to work (my commute here was 54 miles round trip). However, the in-laws bought a lake house last year in Minnesota, so I imagine we would be racking up miles to go there often. I would be constantly worrying about putting too many miles on the car. Also, if you lease a new car, I'm pretty sure you still pay sales tax on the sticker price in order to register it. Sales tax on $55k is quite the chunk of change. Of course this would vary by state.

Edit: Did a little research on the sales tax. NYS requires payment of the expected depreciation during the term of the lease. Again, I imagine this will vary by state.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/money/paying-sales-tax-leased-car-drives-consumer-nuts-article-1.240899 (might be outdated, since it's from 2007)

[zhp43867]

I've had a similar experience. I had an E36 M3, and considered selling my ZHP instead of the M3. I sold the M3, which was the right call.

I've considered getting into a 135i, 335i, WRX, or even E46 M3, but I'm on my second ZHP now and I'm happy that I stuck with it! It is truly a special car.

[Mike V]

I've had a similar experience. I had an E36 M3, and considered selling my ZHP instead of the M3. I sold the M3, which was the right call.

I've considered getting into a 135i, 335i, WRX, or even E46 M3, but I'm on my second ZHP now and I'm happy that I stuck with it! It is truly a special car.

That's crazy talk. :p Kidding of course. I did the same thing (had a ZHP and E36 M3 at the same time). The ZHP is a great car, but I really missed the more raw driving experience of the 95 M3 after I sold it.

[zhp43867]

That's crazy talk. :p Kidding of course. I did the same thing (had a ZHP and E36 M3 at the same time). The ZHP is a great car, but I really missed the more raw driving experience of the 95 M3 after I sold it.

I think they're close enough in that regard that it depends on how each of them is set up. All things being equal, The E36 M is a bit rawer. However, even something as minor as a better set of tires tips the scales in the ZHP's direction.

Add to that the ZHP's looks, far superior interior, more sophisticated persona, and much greater safety- and you have a clear winner.

There is something special about the E36 M3 though. It has a certain free spiritedness to it. I had a 96' coupe.

[ranger]

If you do not buy a new car but drive a used car and save your money, in a few years you will have enough cash to buy a used enthusiast car in the $12,000 to $18,000 range without payments. You drive it for a few years, save some more money, sell it for a fair price, and roll into another USED enthusiast car. Repeat as necessary. I WISH I had the money back I wasted on car payments when I was in my 20s and 30s. I have less money in a 2007 Mercedes E350, a 2006 Mercedes C55 AMG, and a 2003 Audi A4 3.0 Avant Quattro than several people I work with have in ONE new car and mine are all paid for.

[Mike V]

I think they're close enough in that regard that it depends on how each of them is set up. All things being equal, The E36 M is a bit rawer. However, even something as minor as a better set of tires tips the scales in the ZHP's direction.

Add to that the ZHP's looks, far superior interior, more sophisticated persona, and much greater safety- and you have a clear winner.

There is something special about the E36 M3 though. It has a certain free spiritedness to it. I had a 96' coupe.

The interior sure does look nicer in the ZHP and better materials are used but I like the seats in the E36 much more. I have a 98 sedan, so it has the sport seats, which I actually prefer over the Vaders that were in the 95. Is the safety difference significant? I suppose I haven't paid attention to that haha. The E36 and E46 underpinnings aren't much different. I'll agree with you on the looks though. I miss the Imola Red.

[cakM3]

To be completely honest, when I got my ZHP I didn't even know what a ZHP was. To me, it was a 330i... typically a normal BMW. I didn't do any research about my ZHP until after purchasing it and then realized just how special this car really was. The longer I have this car, the more I have come to appreciate it. Of course, for those of you who have been following my ZHP project thread, you have seen me do lots to her in the two years I have owned her.

What strikes me about being a ZHP owner are all the minute differences that make this car really stick out.....Imola Red exterior (for those who have them), cube interior trim, red gauge needles in the instrument cluster, alcantara interior (for those who have them), anthracite headliners (same as the ///M), suspension, MTec II body kit, and Style 135 wheels. These are the obvious differences and then there are other not so obvious differences that go along with the performance "upgrades"... :)

Funny thing is that I basically went from my E46 ///M to my ZHP for all my daily driving needs. I find that my ZHP is well suited for this task. There may be others who will disagree but all I can say is that having both the E46 ///M and ZHP is the best of all worlds ;)

[JupiterBMW]

Wow, Bill, this is a great thread. I know we've emailed quite a bit about your endeavors and the ZHP, and I completely agree with you. When some friends of mine asked why I bought a USED BMW, let alone drove thousands of miles and paid hondsomely for a certain one, I often would explain that no matter what used car your purchase, its going to come with associated cost of ownership, and like Bill mentioned, if I'm going to spend my hard earned pennies for a car, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to enjoy it. I don't care if your ///M is faster, or your _____ car is newer/nicer/more efficient. One of my good buddies still always comments on how much HE loves my car, and he has (in my eyes) the pinnacle of perfect, a E90 (sedan) ///M3, Alpine White, 6spd. The pure pleasure I get from my ZHP will beat out any other shortcoming. Heck, my wife can attest, I get a smile on my face every time we come home and I see her parked in the garage.

There are many things about this car that really make it wonderful, and I find that even though she's 10 years old (as of tomorrow!!), the car is still as exciting as ever, and it has rekindled my passion for owning an enthusiast car, especially through modifications, enthusiast group friendships, and just being part of a group of people with a common interest.

Now if only I could enjoy her year round, that would be awesome... :biggrin

[zhp43867]

The interior sure does look nicer in the ZHP and better materials are used but I like the seats in the E36 much more. I have a 98 sedan, so it has the sport seats, which I actually prefer over the Vaders that were in the 95. Is the safety difference significant? I suppose I haven't paid attention to that haha. The E36 and E46 underpinnings aren't much different. I'll agree with you on the looks though. I miss the Imola Red.

Yeah- the safety is not even close. The E36 barely passed the tests before it went out of production. Safety is actually the reason there was no adjustable steering wheel in the E36 after 1995. The E46 added DSC, side curtain airbags, and a much better designed chassis and is one of the safest cars of its time.

[illirep]

All good points, thanks for all the contributions to this thread so far. Keep them coming!

Interchangability and availability ranks top 3 of my favorite things about these cars! Very easy to find virtually any part you need. And there is demand for any part you desire to sell.

I preventatively replaced my DISA valve with a new OEM unit for $240. Sold my perfectly functioning, but aging 60k mile DISA valve for $120 on e46f to someone who needed it but didn't want to buy new. He was happy, I was happy. I'm not aware of other cars with this type of market for parts!

[alexandre]

All good points, thanks for all the contributions to this thread so far. Keep them coming!

Interchangability and availability ranks top 3 of my favorite things about these cars! Very easy to find virtually any part you need. And there is demand for any part you desire to sell.

I preventatively replaced my DISA valve with a new OEM unit for $240. Sold my perfectly functioning, but aging 60k mile DISA valve for $120 on e46f to someone who needed it but didn't want to buy new. He was happy, I was happy. I'm not aware of other cars with this type of market for parts!

Yup, this is definitely one of the great points.. I was really happy to discover this a few months after I bought my car. Makes it easier to justify preventative maintenance on major parts!

My points:
- timeless design - it looks like a recent car even after 10 years
- extremely fun to drive yet is comfortable when you want it to and won't drain your wallet for gas
- won't leave you stranded as long as you keep up with basic maintenance
- insurance is half that of a civic of the same year (where I live at least)
- relatively cheap to own, if you spread out the maintenance costs over a few years (I'm thinking of the 125k milestone where you have to replace a lot of stuff here)

Everything is relative of course, but in almost a year of ownership I haven't had any bad surprises, even if my ZHP had 206,000 miles on the clock when I signed the check. I drove it through the winter without a single issue (well I had air in my cooling system and it cut my heater in January, but I was good to go after a 10-minute bleed).

[DublDee]

Much like cakM3, I really had no idea what my car was when I bought it. The gentleman I purchased it from explained some of the differences between my car and a regular 330CI, but honestly I thought he was just blowing smoke up my @$$, and playing the part of a saleman. And to tell you the truth, even if I hadn't stumbled upon this site, and found all the answers about these cars, I would have loved this car just as much anyway. Especially after driving it for a couple weeks. The initial test drive really, really blew me away. It was my first experience with a BMW, and I was shocked that I was so impressed with a car that was made 10+ years ago. I also own a 2012 Mustang GT with the Coyote 5.0, and although I love driving it, I can honestly say that I get just as much enjoyment from driving my BMW, if not more! I think that says a lot about the quality of these cars.

[Jesse M]

Much like cakM3, I really had no idea what my car was when I bought it.

Same here man, I traded in my E36 M3 for something newer .. I know I wanted to stick with BMW. Proven a true driver's machine to me. I was offered to come look at a 330Ci in the showroom at the dealer I went to. All he said was it had the "M sports package." I was sold. It looked dead on for what I wanted. I didn't even know what it was, but I wanted something newer, reliable, clean, and non-molested, and 6 spd of course. I actually found this forum after posting on BFc & E46f telling me it was some special 330 with goodies and referred me over here. Couldn't be happier, honestly. I was a valet/recon for a few years, driven many many cars, Porsche, merc, newer/older bmws, jag, infiniti, you name it. I still fall in love all over again after getting out of someone else's car and back into mine. Hard to describe. My brother has a 350Z and we traded for a weekend for the hell of it, and it just didn't feel right, same with my buddies STi, EVO, S60R, Boss 302, Camaros.. Maybe it's just me, well obviously not, but there's something special about the 3 series bmw that gives you the "right at home" feeling.

[Don Adolfo]

Great thread and comments. It’s clear we love our ZHPs and know they are special. After years of lusting them (while driving a ‘99 323i) and seriously searching for one for 7-8 months, I went into my purchase knowing what I was getting into. I know it’s one of those decisions I won’t regret. I concur with many of your comments: I love seeing it in my garage; I love strapping it to my back; and I love driving it. As with some of you, when I purchased my M Roadster, I did not really know what I was getting into. Back then I was looking for a 3.0 Z3. Although the Roadster’s asking price was more than what I had planned, I went to test drive it just for kicks…and that was all she wrote. Both were used cars when I purchased them, but I feel good knowing I have great cars that I love without having paid for a new car; cars I never plan to part with. I plan to again buy a used BMW again. I am trying to make up for all those years I could not afford one, had to put family first, or was overseas without the need for a car. I hope to one day own an E30 and my first love, a ‘74 2002tii.

[Hermes]

I hope to one day own an E30 and my first love, a ‘74 2002tii.

when you're ready I'll find you a 73, roundie FTW!

[Don Adolfo]

Great! I first saw a 1974 tii, so that has always been on my mind, but lately have been open to the idea of a roundie.

[Imola.ZHP]

Interesting post...

However, I'm not sure where you can find a new 3er m-sport (unless its a completely stripped 328i) for $550/month, is this a lease? Comparing lease and purchase is kind of odd...

I purchased my car CPO'd 38 months used with 32,500 miles (nearly 7 years ago) and although the final price with tax is foggy, I do remember that my payment was higher than the mortgage on my brand new 1600 sq ft house ($650 vs $633) and that was a special from BMWFS at 2.99% interest for 60 months.

Sure, prices are completely different now, as are interest rates, but I think it would be difficult to even find a 3 year used 335i m-sport loaded (and CPO'd) for a comparable price (with tax, kinda high in TN)...

I, too, owned many Japanese built cars (GS-R, RSX-S, etc), great cars. The BMW just seems to have a "soul," I can't describe it, Japanese built cars just seem so clinical, almost like an appliance. Perhaps thats why I never named any of my Japanese cars, yet my BMW got named less than an hour after purchase...

Perhaps it was a "perfect" storm with my ZHP, sure, I did contemplate trading her in a few times (or selling outright) in the 3rd and 4th years of ownership, but as I've aged and matured myself, I realize what a complete WASTE of money trading cars is. If you have it, good for you, but I work VERY hard for my money, and although maintenance (and mods) have not been cheap, I'm sure I have saved money by keeping the same car for nearly 7 years, I paid her off in the 4th year, so I haven't had a car payment for over two years...

The ZHP is a perfect balance of performance, handling, looks, reliability and ability to maintain yourself; or it is for me at least. A good friend of mine has a 335i and it just seems so much larger than my e46. Sure the extra power is nice (I've refrained from driving it, in part because it is an automatic), but his car (hopefully just his) has been very problematic. Even at that, he still loves it, but plans to upgrade to an M3 in the next few years...

I have been giving the same advice above to many of my friends over the past few years. All cars are depreciating assets, and the more you change, the more you money you loose. So keep what you have for absolutely as long as you can and if maintained properly any modern car should last much longer than you can stand to drive it. Sure, new cars are nicer, sometimes get better fuel economy, and have a lot of extra techno gadgets. Is it worth it? I live 5 minutes from home, 20 minutes from school. I spend an hour (at most) in my car every day, I can go an hour a day without bluetooth streaming Pandora radio and without being able to tweet or Facebook (don't get me started on these new "features" what a complete waste!)...

I'm finishing my 4th overnight shift, so hopefully this doesn't come off too ranty and hopefully it makes sense...

[illirep]

Marcus - thanks for the input. I was referring to leasing a new 335i Msport. I was making the case that if one was finanancing their zhp, in addition to maintenance and repair costs, should they consider leasing a new one for a few extra bucks per month and have no repair / maintenance costs. I know leasing vs. buying vs. owning outright is apples to oranges to bananas, but was just demonstrating the thought process I go through after seeing the tempting BMW ads on TV - especially the new one with M-Sport Estorial Blue 3 series!

I think by and large, owning (financing or paying cash) is always more prudent than leasing. But one can fantasize when every trip to the dealer results in a $500 plus repair or maintenance item needed!

[M0nk3y]

In the end it's all a risk/reward type of deal when you talk about new versus used....yada yada

TBH, our family hasn't bought a new car since around 2007 when they leased out a 07 Mitsubishi Outlander for my sister. But for BMWs, besides the 2002 E46 that my dad bought new and I was handed down, the 2007 E90, 2009 E92, and 2008 X3, my 2007 E86, and my "new" 2012 E82 have all been used and CPO (the 2012 is factory warranty)

The gamble has been worth it, and all have been fantastic cars to own. Even with the 2002 at 135k miles it has been solid.

I don't see any added value of buying new in this market, IMO. Cars are taking a hit on residual quickly off the lot. My 2012 has 4k miles on it and I'm paying $306/mo w/$60 a month on insurance.

Of course it is no 335i, or 135i for that matter....but it's essentially a new car in my eyes.

[illirep]

All good points. How did you manage to get into a 2012 128i for $18k? Did you put a huge chunk of change down?

[M0nk3y]

All good points. How did you manage to get into a 2012 128i for $18k? Did you put a huge chunk of change down?

I grabbed it for $26k and put 6k down. 72 months for 2.69%....I'm 22 so the rate isn't too bad.

[Imola.ZHP]

72 months?! I just had a heart attack!

I don't think I'll be buying anything I can't pay off in 36 months from now on. New cars are just too crazily priced and drop in value so quickly...

Unless I get into dental school, then I'll be ordering a (hopefully e46 sized) M2 Grand Coupe!

[illirep]

Not always about term or ability to pay off. If the interest rate is under three for 6 years, it's free money. Why triple your car payment if you don't have to. I'm sure he can swing the payment on the 36 month term, but chooses not to for financial planning purposes.

Bill

[terraphantm]

72 months?! I just had a heart attack!

I don't think I'll be buying anything I can't pay off in 36 months from now on. New cars are just too crazily priced and drop in value so quickly...

Unless I get into dental school, then I'll be ordering a (hopefully e46 sized) M2 Grand Coupe!

Generally if the interest rates are equal I take the longest loan I can get, and then pay extra each month. You can always pay extra and end up paying the same interest that you would on a shorter loan. But if something catastrophic happens and you need a bit of breathing room, then at least you won't be dinging your credit by going to the standard

And it can be strategic as well. Say you have a bit of debt with a high interest (and still need a car for whatever reason). It'd be smarter to pay the minimum on the low interest loan and pay down the high interest debt ASAP.


To answer the OP's question... why a ZHP (or M3 in my case)? Honestly, because they're freaking awesome to drive without burning a major hole in the pocket. Sure the maintenance and possibly insurance are more than similarly priced japanese vehicles... but driving just isn't inspiring. I'd rather have something that spices up my boring commute than something that just adds to the monotony.

That said -- assuming I do get into medical school next year, I intend to buy or lease something that isn't as high maintenance. Or at least maybe a BMW w/ warranty so that I can take it into the dealer, get a loaner, and not have to waste any time doing repairs when I have more important things to do. At that point I'd probably resign the M3 to weekend duty (for however many free weekends I get)

[EmDeeAr]

.....