BMW ZHP (E46) vs 530i (E39)

[BavarianZHP]

I've heard great things about the larger brother 530i (especially the last 2003 year model). My bother is thinking about buying one. Any thoughts? I think it is equipped with the same engine as the 330i and the sport version appears to have the same exact ZHP steering wheel (albeit in leather) - I wonder if they are interchangeable? I've never test driven one or have any experience with the 5-series so I would like your thoughts, but I do have a ZHP to compare it to, so keep that in mind.

Thanks!

[terraphantm]

5ers are nice cars. Not quite as agile as the e46, but they feel a lot more solid. You can cruise all day at 110+ without it feeling unstable. A bit heavier than the e46 and suspension is tuned more for luxury -- it will be a slower in a straight and in turns.

Main downsides for me would be that the 6cyl models are a bit slow... And they never got a 6-speed.

[derbo]

5ers are nice cars. Not quite as agile as the e46, but they feel a lot more solid. You can cruise all day at 110+ without it feeling unstable. A bit heavier than the e46 and suspension is tuned more for luxury -- it will be a slower in a straight and in turns.

Main downsides for me would be that the 6cyl models are a bit slow... And they never got a 6-speed.

The e39 530i were 5 speeds? That I didn't know since manual e39 530i are so rare to begin with. I was searching for years for a used black manual locally but ultimately gave up. It would've been a great car for my dad. (We used to have a 1988 535is manual black/black)

E39 is softer on the ride, less agile, more stable, has oddball 74mm hub wheels, the original angel eye car, crappy cup holders, led displays like to go out as well.

It's still a wonderful car and my favorite 5 series generation.


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[terraphantm]

Yeah for the e39, only the 540 and M5 were sold as 6-speeds. Shouldn't be too difficult to do a 6-speed swap if you really wanted.

You can also swap in e60 hubs and get the 72.6mm hubs. They fit perfectly

[BCS_ZHP]

I'd recommend the 540 M-Sport over a 530 Sport, you get the 6th gear and that v8 power. If you're reasonable, she averages 23-24 mpg, as high as 28-29 mpg on the highway, and 15 mpg if you can't keep your foot out of it. The v8 actually weighs less than our 3.0, so no weight penalty in handling. The e39 definitely has more heft, not as nimble as the ZHP, you can't toss it into a corner as aggressively. But when you mash the accelerator, she returns the favor by setting you back in the seat. The ride is softer while still being firm, a coil over change can tighten that up. The brakes on the 540 are small, the 530 even smaller, might want to consider upgrading. She is a highway cruiser, super smooth. Also, triple door seals and extra insulation for a quiet ride

[az3579]

Please note, driving a manual E39 is atrocious. The drive-by-wire system is so laggy and so clunky with the CDV that driving it smoothly is almost out of the question unless you want to take your sweet time off the line with the shifting. The CDV can be removed, but the drive-by-wire... well... good luck.

I've driven the most responsive of the E39's, the M5. That's what my thoughts are based off of.
Most definitely have him test drive one and see if he likes it.

[danewilson77]

Please note, driving a manual E39 is atrocious. The drive-by-wire system is so laggy and so clunky with the CDV that driving it smoothly is almost out of the question unless you want to take your sweet time off the line with the shifting. The CDV can be removed, but the drive-by-wire... well... good luck.

I've driven the most responsive of the E39's, the M5. That's what my thoughts are based off of.
Most definitely have him test drive one and see if he likes it.

The 540i M Sport was not like this at all.

[az3579]

The 540i M Sport was not like this at all.

The one I drove was.

I've driven a 525i, a 540i, and an M5. They all did the same thing.
Learning to drive manual on the 540i was near impossible. I had to switch to a "basic" car to learn manual properly.

[CERF04ZHP]

Definitely not as tight or nimble as the e46. Great cruiser/highway car. Factory manual shifter throws are about a mile long. With a sprint booster, CDV delete and a SSK, you have a very enjoyable DD.

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[Hermes]

Lawrence has an E39 530, he should chime in

[nike001]

I had an e39 528 so I'm close.

I loved it. The car was what a 5 series should be until the e60 ruined it, and the f10 5er branched into 7er sizes. It got up and moved, was fun to drive (for a 16-18 year old) and was a good people hauler. Interior was solid and comfortable as well.. except for the damn cupholders.

[midlandtech]

My buddy has a 540 and loves it. It does suffer from the mentioned pixel and cup holder issues though. It is a pretty quick people hauler.

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[illirep]

I used to have a 2002 530i sport with a 6 speed manual. I think the sport has a 6 speed and the non-sport has a 5 speed.

That car had an absolutely incredible balance of sporty and luxury driving dynamics. It did, however, feel like the big sedan that it is. It felt much heavier than the 3, and a bit slower. I just prefer the smaller more nimble 3 series. I actually like the 3's cabin better as well!

[ranger]

I bought a very low mileage 2003 BMW 525i Touring. Do not get a 525i as an enthusiast - it is just too slow. Extremely well built, great ride. Had the pixel issues. I sold the 525i Touring to a friend for his wife and she LOVES it after I found my 2005 ZHP coupe.

[derbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-Wez39pAA


its a bigger boat but that torque looks so fun...lol

My buddy has a 540i 6spd and its really entertaining on the track and its sooo comfortable on the freeway to the track..


as I said before, my favorite 5 series body style.

[Johal E32]

In my family we have a 2003 530i 5 speed that we used to replace the 330i ZHP.

Overall. They are two different cars. I prefer the 530i as a highway cruiser, (29 mpg at 75 mph)

Bruce, the E39's do NOT have small brakes (maybe the calipers are small, but they are bigger than the 330 zhp calipers).. And, our 530i will stop on a dime, my Dad even compares it to the E39 m5 (new car, and his old 2005 E55 AMG).

I would recommend the 530 over a 540 IMO. 530 gets better mpg, easier to work on, and the m54b30 seems to be a decent motor. 5 speed E39s are totally fine, 5th is only needed when going 55mph or above!


It is up to your brother though, what would he prefer?

The E39 is a big car, it is a great highway cruiser, and the e46 is good for around town and some highway driving. I would much rather do a 1.5+hr trip in the E39 than the E46 (any model), the E39 is nice, quiet and refined, the seats are decent as well.

The 330i felt peppier and quicker, the electronic throttle sucks balls on both cars, I prefer my mechanical throttle body on the 323i ;)

[BavarianZHP]

Great insights all, my brother has done research on the 530i and he mentioned that it was much easier, cheaper, and more reliable than the 540i. Knowing him, he's not going to be focused on power and acceleration - just a nice car that he can depend on. He wants a stick, but I think I can convince him to get an auto instead (by toning down on the not-driving-stick teasing lol).

[Johal E32]

Great insights all, my brother has done research on the 530i and he mentioned that it was much easier, cheaper, and more reliable than the 540i. Knowing him, he's not going to be focused on power and acceleration - just a nice car that he can depend on. He wants a stick, but I think I can convince him to get an auto instead (by toning down on the not-driving-stick teasing lol).

The 530 pulls HARD in 3rd gear. I can easily loose my license in just second gear in the 530. I find the power delivery to smooth, and strong. The car is strong in all gears to be honest, taking off in first, the car just wants to pull hard, second and third are the same, 4th and 5th are more for cruising. If he gets a stick, install a clutch stop, and remove the clutch delay valve. It will make the shifts much easier and less jerky.

Oh, and get the 545i short shifter kit. Probably the only mod that the 530 actually needs

[az3579]

Great insights all, my brother has done research on the 530i and he mentioned that it was much easier, cheaper, and more reliable than the 540i. Knowing him, he's not going to be focused on power and acceleration - just a nice car that he can depend on. He wants a stick, but I think I can convince him to get an auto instead (by toning down on the not-driving-stick teasing lol).

Definitely a 530i > 540i. Maintenance is much cheaper.

[derbo]

Definitely a 530i > 540i. Maintenance is much cheaper.

Agreed. BMW likes to run the V8s very hot to meet emission requirements on these cars. I think just buying parts alone would be dramatically cheaper since its a M54 like the 330is.

[BCS_ZHP]

Bruce, the E39's do NOT have small brakes (maybe the calipers are small, but they are bigger than the 330 zhp calipers).. And, our 530i will stop on a dime, my Dad even compares it to the E39 m5 (new car, and his old 2005 E55 AMG).;)

The 5 series front rotors are bigger than a 330's but those rear rotors are the same size as a 325, too small IMO.

And mpg, keep your foot out of the 540 and its within 1-2 mpg of the 530 but has almost 70 more HP for when you don't care about mpg.

Have to admit, 540 parts both mechanical and cosmetic are almost twice as much as the 330.

[das boots]

In my family we have a 2003 530i 5 speed that we used to replace the 330i ZHP.

Overall. They are two different cars. I prefer the 530i as a highway cruiser, (29 mpg at 75 mph)

Bruce, the E39's do NOT have small brakes (maybe the calipers are small, but they are bigger than the 330 zhp calipers).. And, our 530i will stop on a dime, my Dad even compares it to the E39 m5 (new car, and his old 2005 E55 AMG).

I would recommend the 530 over a 540 IMO. 530 gets better mpg, easier to work on, and the m54b30 seems to be a decent motor. 5 speed E39s are totally fine, 5th is only needed when going 55mph or above!


It is up to your brother though, what would he prefer?

The E39 is a big car, it is a great highway cruiser, and the e46 is good for around town and some highway driving. I would much rather do a 1.5+hr trip in the E39 than the E46 (any model), the E39 is nice, quiet and refined, the seats are decent as well.

The 330i felt peppier and quicker, the electronic throttle sucks balls on both cars, I prefer my mechanical throttle body on the 323i ;)


+1. The 530i is the luxury and the cruiser. When you get to the cruising speed.....it is so smooth. The one I have which is the S.O.'s DD is a Premium Package 5 spd. with cold weather package and side and rear curtains. But no Harmann-Kardon. Easier to maintain than a 540i. It may be a M54 engine, and yet it feels different from a 330i. The one thing that the 330i should have from it's older brother or sister....is that the E46 should have used the fuel pump of the E39.

[terraphantm]

Please note, driving a manual E39 is atrocious. The drive-by-wire system is so laggy and so clunky with the CDV that driving it smoothly is almost out of the question unless you want to take your sweet time off the line with the shifting. The CDV can be removed, but the drive-by-wire... well... good luck.

I've driven the most responsive of the E39's, the M5. That's what my thoughts are based off of.
Most definitely have him test drive one and see if he likes it.

Don't really understand why the DBW would be any worse than it is on an e46. Same system.

[az3579]

Don't really understand why the DBW would be any worse than it is on an e46. Same system.

It can't be. There is significantly more throttle lag in my friend's M5 than there is in my ZHP. Something has to be different.


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[terraphantm]

It can't be. There is significantly more throttle lag in my friend's M5 than there is in my ZHP. Something has to be different.


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Well I was talking about 530 vs 330.

M5 is more similar to my car. I've never driven an M5, but the m3 is more responsive than... Well pretty much any other BMW.

If the m5 felt as bad as you say, I'd bet something was wrong with it. M5s have a tendency to eat MAF sensors, which very well can make it feel like crap

[az3579]

Well I was talking about 530 vs 330.

M5 is more similar to my car. I've never driven an M5, but the m3 is more responsive than... Well pretty much any other BMW.

I haven't driven a 530, but the 525 did the same thing... :confused
The M3 is very responsive compared to any other BMW I've driven. I agree with that completely, and then with the sport button pressed, it's even better!



If the m5 felt as bad as you say, I'd bet something was wrong with it. M5s have a tendency to eat MAF sensors, which very well can make it feel like crap

It was after he replaced both MAF sensors. I thought it was funny you should say that because my friend told me the same thing about them having MAFs for lunch. The car didn't feel like it wasn't running right; it actually ran just fine. Just that annoying lag, that's all.

Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist? :dunno

[terraphantm]

I haven't driven a 530, but the 525 did the same thing... :confused
The M3 is very responsive compared to any other BMW I've driven. I agree with that completely, and then with the sport button pressed, it's even better!



It was after he replaced both MAF sensors. I thought it was funny you should say that because my friend told me the same thing about them having MAFs for lunch. The car didn't feel like it wasn't running right; it actually ran just fine. Just that annoying lag, that's all.

Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist? :dunno

Possible... but it bugs me since it is the same system, especially for M54 models. Only thing I can think of is that BMW *really* gimped the calibration for the E39. Easy enough to fix... but why would they do that in the first place?

[Hermes]

The one thing that the 330i should have from it's older brother or sister....is that the E46 should have used the fuel pump of the E39.

Carl said they are essentially the same, differences have to due with the shape of the gas tank per chassis code. If anything you probably want a M3 fuel pump.

I dunno... call him, you have his number. He'll explain it to you better than I will.

[az3579]

Possible... but it bugs me since it is the same system, especially for M54 models. Only thing I can think of is that BMW *really* gimped the calibration for the E39. Easy enough to fix... but why would they do that in the first place?

Perhaps to not make the E39 as edgy, softening it up for a more luxurious shifting style?


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[terraphantm]

Maybe. I suppose I'd just flash a 330 calibration onto it if I ever bought one

Edit: So I decided to take a look at the E39 M5's throttle calibration and see if I could figure anything out. It's actually quite aggressive, at the lower RPMs it gives a lot more throttle than the E46 M3. I suppose that lack of linearity might make it feel worse

At low RPMs (800-2000) 50-75% onward basically equal WOT. So that deadzone might be creating the sensation you're feeling

The other thing I noticed is that the M5 opens the throttles beyond 100% (goes to about 120%). That seems counter intuitive to me since 120% should be as restrictive as 100%... but maybe the turbulence helps or something

[mimalmo]

530i with a manual trans is going to be more reliable than every other E39 combination available.

[BavarianZHP]

My brother is torn between a manual and an auto, but ever since he researched that the autos are ticking time bombs especially if they had irregular transmission flushes, he's kinda hesitant on that option since these are old cars. He's mainly concerned about the lag/sloppiness that all you guys are experiencing though for the manual gearbox. Guess a test drive is needed.

One thing that really gets him is why BMW never offered a 6 speed manual for the i6 models in the States. You guys sure that the 530i + sport package offered a 6 speed in the US? Kinda puzzling that the 5 speed has no overdrive gear. Sure, the V8 + 6 speed would be awesome, but maintenance and steering would be worse than the 530i (he says that the V8s suffer in steering although it can be easily fixed).

[Johal E32]

E39 530's came in 5 speed manuals, no 6 speed manuals.

The 530 has a beautiful gear box, super smooth and silky. Just make sure it has no 5th gear lean, that is a PITA to do. Some say you need to drop the tranny to fix it, others say it is do-able while the tranny is in the car..

[BavarianZHP]

Good call on the 5th gear lean. This car is gonna be a cruiser. Anyway to change the gear ratios for cheap to introduce a 5th gear overdrive?

[terraphantm]

Good call on the 5th gear lean. This car is gonna be a cruiser. Anyway to change the gear ratios for cheap to introduce a 5th gear overdrive?

6-speed swap would be easier

[az3579]

Good call on the 5th gear lean. This car is gonna be a cruiser. Anyway to change the gear ratios for cheap to introduce a 5th gear overdrive?

That's a lot of custom work and in no way cheap. I agree with Terra that 6-speed swap about be easier.

[Hermes]

+3

[llll1l1ll]

What is 5th gear lean? Just a cosmetic issue where the shifter is leaning in 5th gear?

I drove a 530i with the sport package and a 5 speed. It was nice. I liked it, but it was a bit big for me. It still is. I have no need for that much car. It was also a little slow and not as nimble. However, it was nice and comfy. It would be nice if I were older and had kids or something.

[das boots]

What is 5th gear lean? Just a cosmetic issue where the shifter is leaning in 5th gear?

I drove a 530i with the sport package and a 5 speed. It was nice. I liked it, but it was a bit big for me. It still is. I have no need for that much car. It was also a little slow and not as nimble. However, it was nice and comfy. It would be nice if I were older and had kids or something.

It is for us old geezers and with grandkids. Made to be a cruiser and luxury above the 3'er and less of the 7. Less nimble..I agree. But it is not slow. It's got a lot of power. But the perfect mating of engine size and body weight.

[terraphantm]

It is for us old geezers and with grandkids. Made to be a cruiser and luxury above the 3'er and less of the 7. Less nimble..I agree. But it is not slow. It's got a lot of power. But the perfect mating of engine size and body weight.

225hp is not a lot of power by today's standards... especially in a 3500lb car.

[BavarianZHP]

What is 5th gear lean? Just a cosmetic issue where the shifter is leaning in 5th gear?.

Yep, the stick shift tends to lean toward fifth gear when in neutral... It's not just cosmetic - it can be a functional issue as well, since the lean can affect shifts (drivers have shifted into 5th instead of the intended 3rd).

[llll1l1ll]

Oh! Okay. Gotchya.

[Imola.ZHP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-Wez39pAA


its a bigger boat but that torque looks so fun...lol

My buddy has a 540i 6spd and its really entertaining on the track and its sooo comfortable on the freeway to the track..


as I said before, my favorite 5 series body style.


Thanks for sharing this video, I enjoyed watching it... I think us e46 owners like the e39 because they look quite similar inside and out...