ZHP Mafia SIG Status

[Marcus-SanDiego]

In late November, BMWCCA approached me about our closed registration status. It had come to their attention, they wrote, "that the ZHP Mafia is no longer accepting new registrants. This is not in the spirit of what a SIG is supposed to be and not what you indicated when you applied to become a recognized SIG of BMWCCA. We ask that you change this policy immediately or you will be removed."

I gave them the reasons for closing the forum to new registrants and also explained that new members are added all of the time. We just didn't want new members coming off the street disrupting what we have here. We also didn't want spambots signing up and disrupting our forum.

In sum, I said, we accept almost every person that requests to be added to our forum. It's true, I wrote, that we do make them jump through a hoop, though, to get added. It's not possible to simply sign up. You have to approach us and let us know that you plan to be active and that you plan to not be an asshole once you get here. Once they jump through that minimal hoop, they're in.

The vice president of BMWCCA said that he does not like how our message reads. He believes that the first roadblock is a turn off and that people go elsewhere. I don't necessarily disagree with him. I think that many would-be asscracks self select at that point. But I also believe that people who would be great additions to our forum do jump through that hoop and join.

After giving it some thought, though, and in consultation with the moderators at ZHPMafia.com, we've decided that we will not be changing our policy and we will not be altering our message. We are not reopening the forum. And we are not tweaking the message that unregistered members see when they arrive.

As a result, I do believe that BMWCCA, at its next board meeting, will remove us as a SIG. As I told the moderators, though: I'd rather keep the forum the way it is (closed) and keep the same message, than be a part of BMWCCA.

Keeping the general population happy with our forum is our number one priority. A closed forum seems to be working well.

In the end, even though we may get the boot from BMWCCA, we will dictate our policy. An outside organization will not.

If and when we get the boot, I will let you know.

[BCS_ZHP]

The Boss performing as a bauce, I agree 100%. Thanks for that.

[danewilson77]

Yup. That's the way it has to be.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[johnrando]

Appreciate the detailed explanation. Certainly enjoyed knowing we were a SIG, but as you said, outside organizations shouldn't dictate our policy. :mafia

[zhpnsnv]

Screw 'em! They don't understand how this works because they've never had a SIG spawn from an online community.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

This came to BMWCCA's attention because a board member wanted to join. He or she ran into our message and went back to BMWCCA and let them know what we were up to.

Had the board member simply sent me an email, he or she would have gladly been added to the roll here at ZHPMafia.com. Indeed, were that board member to come to us today, he or she would be added. We're not exclusive. We're just making sure that we don't let the idiots in.

[johnrando]

Well that board member IS an idiot so don't let him/her in. lol Just kidding board member!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

:biggrin ^^

[Marcus-SanDiego]

By the way, one of the board members runs another forum. He says that they have put all kinds of safeguards in place to prevent spammers from getting on to the site. I certainly appreciate that board member's time and definitely appreciated the suggestions. However, in the end, we're not reopening this forum to people who can't behave themselves and conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner.

During the second half of 2012 I was rarely around the site. Keith wasn't around that much, either. Dane pretty much handled this forum on his own.

I believe that he was able to do that, though, because the membership is tremendous at policing itself. You guys stand for the same things that we stand for. As such, you don't tolerate trouble. Moreover, you don't cause trouble. I believe, at this point, that Dane, Keith, and I could walk away as moderators and have this forum run pretty smoothly. That's saying a lot. I don't think most forums could pull that off. Too many morons have been allowed to stick around forums. But for moderators, those morons on other forums would be going crazy and running amok.

I'm pleased to say that I could not imagine our forum ever being anything other than fun, respectful, and safe.

[johnrando]

Curious, does that person have a ZHP or did they just want to join? (Not that it really matters).

[az3579]

If they're so hell bent on a minor roadblock to becoming a member, then perhaps they should just open up their registration to become a CCA member for FREE. That, to me, is a massive roadblock. Paying money is a helluva lot more of a hoop to jump through than it is to send an email to someone. Technically, it's easier to become a member here than it is to become a member of the BMW CCA.

I myself am a board member of my chapter and I have no issue with this policy.

[BCS_ZHP]

This place is "Cheers", and we're all "Norm" when we log back on whether it be daily, weekly, or monthly.

[johnrando]

Well put.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

That person has a ZHP, John.

[UdubBadger]

Nice


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[JKO_ZHP]

Well that board member IS an idiot so don't let him/her in. lol Just kidding board member!

:shifty

I'm not paying to be in BMWCCA now. Was planning on it for a long time too.
I used to be on other forums (like E46Fanatics....) and still am active on others (like MFESTForums). So joining BMWCCA (up until after reading this) was the last thing on the list I wanted to join.

Sounds like bureaucracy trying to tell the little guy what to do. Have they even taken the time to visit E46Fanatics and look at the threads and posts? :facepalm

If they want to stomp on the unity here then those old farts in BMWCCA (no offense to anyone here) can keep running their old-school club. I'll be damned if they would be willing to open THEIR doors to E46Fanatics members with open arms.

You know they wouldn't. So why should we have to?

[Mtnman]

This place is perfect just like it is. I swear i welcomed multiple new members just this week. Dont change a good thing. I tried the the other forums. Me no likey. Your decision is :chuck

[GMATT]

Agree with the present format. We all have a place where we can discuss just about anything and not worry about a bunch of assholes sticking their $.02 in. This probably goes along with the couple of letters in the recent Roundel saying that Marc B. was not loving the ZHP, quite the opposite.

Stay the course, we love it here!

Gary

[kayger12]

This place is an incredible rarity among forums. No recognition or affiliation is worth jeopardizing what we have here.

Boss hit the nail on the head. I've had a crazy year and was severely limited in the time I was around. The only thing that made that possible for me with a clear conscience was the fact that I knew that this place essentially takes care of itself anymore.

Back in the open forum days, every new member was scrutinized by the Boss and mods. Running IP checks to make sure it wasn't a known spammer. Googling to find other forum activities to identify posters with a proclivity for being asshats. And then, of course, monitoring all the new posts from the new members to make sure they understood what this place was about and the level of civility that is expected-- actually demanded-- from everyone here, by everyone here.

I feel like at this point we have a forum full of moderators. We all look out for each other and the site. I think everyone realizes how rare and "not-special" this place is.

Closing the forum was the best idea the Boss had other than creating the site in the first place.

If the BMWCCA doesn't like or understand that, then it is clearly their loss.

[az3579]

:shifty

I'm not paying to be in BMWCCA now. Was planning on it for a long time too.
I used to be on other forums (like E46Fanatics....) and still am active on others (like MFESTForums). So joining BMWCCA (up until after reading this) was the last thing on the list I wanted to join.

Sounds like bureaucracy trying to tell the little guy what to do. Have they even taken the time to visit E46Fanatics and look at the threads and posts? :facepalm

If they want to stomp on the unity here then those old farts in BMWCCA (no offense to anyone here) can keep running their old-school club. I'll be damned if they would be willing to open THEIR doors to E46Fanatics members with open arms.

You know they wouldn't. So why should we have to?


BMWCCA will take anyone who pays the membership dues. You can be the biggest douche in the world and still be a member, as long as you pay your dues.
Granted, I have never come across anyone that's a Club member that I didn't like. So, to think that I'd come across a complete dickhead when at a Club event is completely unexpected. When I'm at a Club event, I always expect people to respect each other, and that is what I see every single time. Don't think about the Club in a negative way because of this little fiasco; they're just not used to this type of moderation as every other forum is "open join".

I do agree; if they decide to drop us as a SIG, then that truly is their loss.

[zhpnsnv]

High hypocrisy on their part. Won't affect my status as a CCA member, however. Plus, I always prefer being part of a counter culture ;)

Perhaps my return to Roundel will be in the form of a letter.

[johnrando]

High hypocrisy on their part. Won't affect my status as a CCA member, however. Plus, I always prefer being part of a counter culture ;)

Perhaps my return to Roundel will be in the form of a letter.

:like

[johnrando]

:shifty

I'm not paying to be in BMWCCA now. Was planning on it for a long time too.
I used to be on other forums (like E46Fanatics....) and still am active on others (like MFESTForums). So joining BMWCCA (up until after reading this) was the last thing on the list I wanted to join.

Sounds like bureaucracy trying to tell the little guy what to do. Have they even taken the time to visit E46Fanatics and look at the threads and posts? :facepalm

If they want to stomp on the unity here then those old farts in BMWCCA (no offense to anyone here) can keep running their old-school club. I'll be damned if they would be willing to open THEIR doors to E46Fanatics members with open arms.

You know they wouldn't. So why should we have to?

JKO, BP is right. This shouldn't affect you joining. I'm sure they were thinking their club is an OPEN membership therefore their SIGs should be OPEN. It's nothing more than that and in fact, it's logical. How would it look for them to be exclusive in their SIG memberships? Smacks of elitism from an elite luxury brand, not good. They want to promote a different image. I don't agree with their decision on our SIG, because we're a (not) special case, but don't let that effect you joining. There's good people over there including many of us on this forum.

[az3579]

High hypocrisy on their part. Won't affect my status as a CCA member, however. Plus, I always prefer being part of a counter culture ;)

Perhaps my return to Roundel will be in the form of a letter.

We should probably coordinate; I'd be willing to send one as well. :shifty

[zhpnsnv]

The more the better. He'll publish them.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I agree with BP. Don't let this decision by BMWCCA affect your decision to join the Club. I'm a Club member and will likely be a Club member for as long as I own a BMW.

The BMWCCA decision to drop us (assuming they do) is being done by a small committee that you'll very likely not run into during a Club event or meeting. I have yet to run into an asshat at any event I've been to during the past 12 years.

[jsfbmw]

I agree with Marcus to keep a small hurdle in place to keep this forum special.

I've been a member of BMW CCA for 30+ years and serve on the Board of my chapter.

To drop us as a SIG is a loss to CCA not to us. I will let my Regional VP know my sentiments.

That someone interested can join by contacting this forum is a very reasonable path.

BTW, this ZHPMafia and ZHPs rock.

[Ryans323i]

I'm good with the decision. I hope we remain a SIG, but if BMW CCA chooses to drop us, it's definitely their loss.

I've told many people in my BMW CCA chapter with ZHPs about this forum. I've also explained the process they need to follow to become a member, but I've always emphasized that it's just a precautionary routine and they'll become a member.Especially if they use me for a reference. I hope it wasn't one of these people that decided to be a d*ck.

Btw, I think I will be writing a letter to Roundel as well.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I believe it was a national board member.


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

[zhpnsnv]

I believe it was a national board member.


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

Wahtheywouldntletmeintotheirinterwebsitedonttheykn owwhoiamwah


Sent from the freaking Catalina wine mixer.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

:biggrin ^^


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

[Newjack]

Thanks for the explanation and letting everyone know what's going on. I think you made the right decision here, and I don't think any hard feelings will be had by either side.

Sent from my VS910 4G using Tapatalk 2

[Marcus-SanDiego]

It was professional throughout. I just let them know that we would not be changing our policy. No hard feelings on either side.


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

[Hermes]

I have not yet said anything on this topic because I wanted to get my thoughts together first.


---------------


As a BMW CCA member I find this decision fairly hypocritical. I actually heard about this from a CCA member with a much lower membership number than mine before Mark posted this and immediately thought one thing: we require you to request a membership on this site, but in order to join the CCA forum on the national site you must first be a CCA member (aka $$$) then you can login and post on that site. I have used that forum 3 times (I think???). Yeah...


Honestly I think this is just a little too new a technology and maybe a forum that spawned a SIG is just not computing for them yet. I think in the long run they will realize their mistake and maybe we can be brought back into the fold with respect to what we tried to do on here as a real community, not just a place to post car stuff.

For those who have said they will not join CCA because of this, that is not something I agree with. BMW CCA is a great organization, this particular issue is due to a few people within the organization. I would still say that joining should still be something you should look into. If anything, go to some of your local chapter events and just see what the members are like.

[imola red zhp]

Thanks Mark and the Moderators I agree with sticking to the policy.
I just joined BMWCCA, sorry that they don't share our views on how we conduct the forum, or are at least open to SIGs policies. I guess if they stick to theirs we should stick to ours.

Agree to disagree.......:banghead:

sent from Dennis' Personal Electronic Device

[RedTRex]

Ditto..... and not that it matters but what benefit(s) are there for being designated a SIG?




I agree with BP. Don't let this decision by BMWCCA affect your decision to join the Club. I'm a Club member and will likely be a Club member for as long as I own a BMW.

The BMWCCA decision to drop us (assuming they do) is being done by a small committee that you'll very likely not run into during a Club event or meeting. I have yet to run into an asshat at any event I've been to during the past 12 years.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

No benefits for our forum. We didn't receive any funding from them. We did get a spot in Roundel Magazine each month, which would direct people to our site. Not sure how many joined as a result of our spot in the magazine. Probably less than 10.

That said, some of our forum members likely joined BMWCCA because of their affiliation with our forum and the SIG.

I don't think anyone here is going to shed a tear if we're cut. If we go, I doubt anyone at BMWCCA will shed a tear, either.

[Ryans323i]

Oh they'll cry.......they'll cry!

[midlandtech]

Oh they'll cry.......they'll cry!

Haha... Honestly I did join BMWCCA due to the SIG status. If they remove us (zhp mafia) as a SIG that is fine, I will remove my monthly payment to them though.


~Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jon D]

Only question I have is could we set up the sig forum so it was open and keep the rest the way it is?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Jon, we could have an open forum for the SIG. However, there would be no way to accept new members in a segmented way. You either accept everyone in an open registration or you moderate the way we're currently doing it.

The SIG forum has always been open -- once you're a member of ZHPMafia.com.

So, everything goes back to the beginning: do we open registration to everyone, including many of the asshats who participate in other forums we've left, or do we keep things the way we are and make people jump through an easy hoop?

We're not opening registration to the world.

[alexandre]

Definitely agree with this decision. No need to introduce the garbage we see on other forums over here.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I figured that everyone already here liked ZHPMafia.com in its current form. As such, I figured everyone would be pleased to know we're not reopening the forum -- even though this doesn't make people outside of our forum happy.

[alexandre]

Reading the initial SIG announcement, I noticed the following:


And this note: you do not have to be a member of ZHPMafia.com to be a member of the ZHP Mafia SIG. If you are not a member of ZHPMafia.com, but would like to be a member of the SIG, I will use your email address to correspond with you. Please provide a first and last name, though, so that I can identify you in my records.

Wouldn't this make their point moot ?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I told them that some people had actually become SIG members without joining our site. They thought that was preposterous. They thought that it was akin to being invited to dinner and having to sit at the kid's table.

Don't blame me. Some people don't want to join the site. They just want to be part of the SIG.

[johnrando]

It gets more and more interesting.

[imola red zhp]

It gets more and more interesting.

+1

sent from Dennis' Personal Electronic Device

[zhpnsnv]

What a bunch of morons.

Seriously. I love my nj chapter and the people in charge of it, but these national bozos obviously take themselves way too seriously.


Sent from the freaking Catalina wine mixer.

[zj96sc]

Yeah, I'm not sure I understand their inherent coupling of the SIG to the mafia. Is there a BB for every SIG CCA recognizes?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Paul, no. Some of the SIGs do not have active sites at all. There is no reason to couple them.

In fairness, though, I did tell the national office that ZHPMafia.com was the gathering place for our SIG. Indeed, the SIG spawned out of our forum. Still, I don't think it's necessary to have an active forum to have a SIG.

[zhpnsnv]

Also the sig is called the ZHP mafia sig, I think. Which may or may not contribute to this situation.


Sent from the freaking Catalina wine mixer.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Regardless, I would bet that we will be dropped in the next three months.

Just wanted everyone to have the heads up.

[zj96sc]

Paul, no. Some of the SIGs do not have active sites at all. There is no reason to couple them.

In fairness, though, I did tell the national office that ZHPMafia.com was the gathering place for our SIG. Indeed, the SIG spawned out of our forum. Still, I don't think it's necessary to have an active forum to have a SIG.


Understood.

Thanks for the heads up.

[mjweimer]

I have been a CCA member for enough years now to know that the leaders of the club just don't get it sometimes. To me this forum represents the very spirit of what the CCA has been for years; a group of people with like minded interests sharing experiences and enjoying cars - in a reasonably civilized manner.

I have been a member of the E30 M3 SIG for longer than I can remember and it too has a multi-step process to join, much like the ZHP SIG. One group happens to be mail based and one group happens to be web based. In fact, the E30 M3 SIG requires a yearly fee - so it could be thought of as even more exclusive than this group.

Blah. Too bad CCA politics *may* once again get in the way of improving the offerings for its members.

Too the leaders of this site: THANK YOU and keep up the good work!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

You're right. The E30 M3 SIG charges an annual fee. We don't. Indeed, the only thing we require is that you make contact with the administrators before you join. That seems like a small thing in the grand scheme of things.

[Sockethead]

After visiting e46fanatics for some information, I had forgotten how spoiled we are here...I almost felt violated after leaving there lol. This site is damn near perfect!
SIG status is cool but it's not going to break my heart if we lose it.

[johnrando]

I don't mind being dropped, but now it's bothering me that the are SIGs that have more stringent requirements that us and WE are getting dropped. We're FREE! Grrrrr.

[danewilson77]

Got this email today. Found it to be just a wee bit hypocritical... :shifty


"Members-Only Forum:

Find Out What's Going On BMW CCA is a community of like-minded enthusiasts with a passion for BMWs—and there's no better place to stay connected to the community than our members-only forums. Not only will you find out what's going on in your region, but you can find answers to those tough do-it-yourself questions. You'll also find members discussing plans for Oktoberfest 2013, swapping track-day stories, and sharing pictures of their Bimmers. Check out the forums today; you just might run into some familiar faces from your local chapter, or even some notable Roundel writers!"
Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[JKO_ZHP]

After visiting e46fanatics for some information, I had forgotten how spoiled we are here...I almost felt violated after leaving there lol. This site is damn near perfect!
SIG status is cool but it's not going to break my heart if we lose it.

:mob

[JKO_ZHP]

Got this email today. Found it to be just a wee bit hypocritical... :shifty


"Members-Only Forum:

Find Out What's Going On BMW CCA is a community of like-minded enthusiasts with a passion for BMWs—and there's no better place to stay connected to the community than our members-only forums. Not only will you find out what's going on in your region, but you can find answers to those tough do-it-yourself questions. You'll also find members discussing plans for Oktoberfest 2013, swapping track-day stories, and sharing pictures of their Bimmers. Check out the forums today; you just might run into some familiar faces from your local chapter, or even some notable Roundel writers!"
Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

Exactly. I think this was what was written on their site already back when I first read this thread and decided to check out their page.
Not going to support BMWCCA :rolleyes
Going to stick with the homies on the various forums :pimp

[johnrando]

Got this email today. Found it to be just a wee bit hypocritical... :shifty


"Members-Only Forum:

Find Out What's Going On BMW CCA is a community of like-minded enthusiasts with a passion for BMWs—and there's no better place to stay connected to the community than our members-only forums. Not only will you find out what's going on in your region, but you can find answers to those tough do-it-yourself questions. You'll also find members discussing plans for Oktoberfest 2013, swapping track-day stories, and sharing pictures of their Bimmers. Check out the forums today; you just might run into some familiar faces from your local chapter, or even some notable Roundel writers!"
Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

You ever write them the letter? This would be a good thing to include. I really don't care what they do, but on principle, it bugs me that they have this double standard.

[danewilson77]

You ever write them the letter? This would be a good thing to include. I really don't care what they do, but on principle, it bugs me that they have this double standard.

+1

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I have not heard anything from BMWCCA yet. We're still a SIG until further notice.

In the meantime, I removed all forums that had SIG-related material. I did that last month. In the event that we are not booted, I will make those forums visible again.

[GMATT]

If you look at the latest Roundel.............I can't find ZHP Mafia SIG

[Sockethead]

Yep, It's gone... it was there in the December issue...

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/r_powell123/Roundel_zps48a49ba7.jpeg

[Marcus-SanDiego]

And it's official.

Life goes on. We continue to add new, quality members to the forum every day.

They didn't like our methods for keeping the riff raff out? Too bad.

For more than two years, our ways have worked extremely well.

We're not changing a thing.

[danewilson77]

Pretty unprofessional way to inform us imho, unless the told Boss. Oh check it out..... I'm already over it.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I was not given a heads up. I was noticed the same way that each of you were: through the omission of our name in Roundel magazine.

[danewilson77]

I was not given a heads up. I was noticed the same way that each of you were: through the omission of our name in Roundel magazine.

Haha.... Nice. No balls to personally tell us.

They should have texted us..... Hehe.
I would have thought something like this would have been phone call worthy.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[echo46]

Bossman, you did the right thing. I'm glad you stuck to your guns as they are being unreasonable and obtuse. As you aptly stated, our policies are meant to preserve something special that has been lost on most of the other competing BMW sites i.e. a sense of family, civility, matureness, intellect, comfortableness, humble omniscience etc., etc. it is why this place is still number one on my sites to visit. In the immortal words of WWII Lexicographer Eric Partridge and the Harvard Crimson :Illegitimi non carborundum--

Derrick

[Sockethead]

C'est la vie

[Marcus-SanDiego]

:Illegitimi non carborundum--

Derrick

Indeed.

We started this forum because we wanted to get back to the roots of what it used to be like on most of the BMW forums.

I can speak from experience because I was an original member on many of the forums that are still popular today. There are so many bad apples on those forums now. The administration allows them to stay. Instead of sweeping them out, they've been allowed to perpetuate their lack of professionalism, civility, brain power, and a host of other things.

The key for us is that we are not here to make money. I don't care about monetizing eyeballs. Instead, we're here to commiserate, commune, and converse with one another on equal footing.

The early forums were just like that. They got away from their roots, though.

We won't.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

And henceforth, we should refrain from calling our annual meet in Virginia anything like SIGFest. We're back to the family reunion again.

[Mtnman]

And henceforth, we should refrain from calling our annual meet in Virginia anything like SIGFest. We're back to the family reunion again.

Always thought family reunion fit us better anyway.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Agree. ^^

[GMATT]

And henceforth, we should refrain from calling our annual meet in Virginia anything like SIGFest. We're back to the family reunion again.

Have to agree 100%. Now that damn song is in my head..............We are fammmmily, all my brothers sisters and me!

Gary

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Which now just made me think of the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates, which was their theme song.

[kayger12]

I was not given a heads up. I was noticed the same way that each of you were: through the omission of our name in Roundel magazine.

Seeing as the entire episode evidences a complete lack of maturity and professionalism on the part of the Board, I would expect nothing different in the manner in which they notified us.

[danewilson77]

Which now just made me think of the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates, which was their theme song.

Yup.....Dave Parker, Willie Stargell, Tim Foli, Phil Garner, Bill Madlock, Lee Lacy, Kent Tekulve.....to name a few.

[echo46]

Loved that damn team. Candelaria, Tekulve, Romo, Bylevan, Jim Bibby, Rick Rhoden, Sanguillian, Berra, Phil ScrapIron Garner,Tim Foli, Mr. "we are family" Willie Darnell Sargell, Renie Stenett, Dave The Cobra Parker, Omar Mareno, The Hit Doctor Billy Mad Dog Madlock, and the infamous Doc Ellis. Ah, heady times indeed.

[midlandtech]

Yep, It's gone... it was there in the December issue...

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/r_powell123/Roundel_zps48a49ba7.jpeg

Guess its time for me to quit contributing financially to them

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD

[echo46]

Yea, I am seriously considering not renewing my membership.

[Hermes]

I have been debating whether or not to write a letter, I now will do so to let CCA know my disappointment in the way this situation has been handled. Personally I don't care that we are no longer considered a SIG, I just feel this has been handled completely wrong by an organization I enjoy being a member of.


edit: I just noticed there is a 318ti SIG... dafuq?

[midlandtech]

I have been debating whether or not to write a letter, I now will do so to let CCA know my disappointment in the way this situation has been handled. Personally I don't care that we are no longer considered a SIG, I just feel this has been handled completely wrong by an organization I enjoy being a member of.


edit: I just noticed there is a 318ti SIG... dafuq?

Its somewhat insulting which is why I will be pulling my membership. I enjoy the local BMWCC and national membership is not required for me to attend their functions. I just simply refuse to sent money to a organization that, at this current point in time, is being narrow minded.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD

[danewilson77]

I probably will not renew mine as well.

[Hermes]

I guess I can go ask Carl if we can all join the 1600/2002 Cabriolet SIG since it seems he runs that one... I need an oil filter anyways so I need to stop by his shop today

[brettbimmer]

I have been debating whether or not to write a letter, I now will do so to let CCA know my disappointment in the way this situation has been handled. Personally I don't care that we are no longer considered a SIG, I just feel this has been handled completely wrong by an organization I enjoy being a member of.


edit: I just noticed there is a 318ti SIG... dafuq?

Yes, though not as good as our family here IMHO. Ti SIG boss works for CCA in SC, though this was not the case when it began.

Pretty lame that the CCA dropped our sig status, as we have an awesome group on here, with the values, knowledge, and enthusiasm that I would think they would want to support. This from a CCA member for more than 15 years. Maybe we need some letters to the executive director Frank P.?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[GMATT]

I think a letter to Frank P. Is in order.Did they not realize our commitment to both the brand and the ZHP?




Sent from my fancy telephone!

[echo46]

Apparently they don't care. Unfortunate and sad.

[Hermes]

I just compared the December and January issues, apparently the CS Registry was also kicked out. CCA doesn't seem to care about E9's either so don't feel too bad...

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Feel free to send Frank a note but understand that he was involved with this process the entire way. The first email to me included him in the discussion.

[kayger12]

I probably will not renew mine as well.

This is unfortunately where I am at as well.

They can choose to exhibit a complete and total lack of professionalism and common courtesy.

I can choose to express my displeasure by spending my hard earned money elsewhere.

It's a shame because it's generally a good organization.

[johnrando]

Oh, we're not a SIG? Huh, I don't feel any different. Guess we'll survive. :biggrin

[JupiterBMW]

Wow... I just read this whole thread. I admit, I haven't kept up with many of the threads like I normally do, with holidays and visitors and such... But, just now reading this, I'm pretty shocked at it all. Honestly, I can't give a lot of input as I've only been part of the overall BMW community and ownership for a year now. Our X3 was the first I've owned, this time last year. So, I can't say I feel the frustration like some of you veterans, but it is still seriously disappointing that the CCA would pull our membership.

Honestly, it would be really great if the CCA members that came to this decision had a week or two to actively be a part and browse our forums and see just how this family is operated. I'm sure their tune would change. But, like many of you have said, oh well, their loss.

I have considered joining the CCA just based on talked to Devlin, and I might still join... But my Mafia family will always be the roots of my BMW love!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

One member of the CCA, who had influence with the board, is a member of ZHPMafia.com. He would not have pulled our status. He was outvoted.

[az3579]

Did they give us a reason yet? I mean, a *valid* reason?

[cakM3]

BP...you probably will not get a valid reason unfortunately...

[kayger12]

BP...you probably will not get a valid reason unfortunately...

This. You cannot provide that which does not exist...

[Marcus-SanDiego]

They did not like our exclusive nature. We closed the forum after we got SIG approval. They thought that we would leave the forum open. They thought that we changed the nature of what we were doing here and what a SIG ought to be. They wanted us to change our message to visitors to make it more welcoming.

They told me all of this before they voted to discontinue our relationship with them.

I can only infer that these are their reasons -- logical or not.

[johnrando]

So, are you saying that if the message was more welcoming but we were still closed the vote would have been different, or is that conjecture?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

And slowly but surely I am excising everything from our site that is SIG related. By the end of this morning, there will no longer be SIG icons under your names (assuming you had one).

[Marcus-SanDiego]

John, they were not making any promises to me. They said that if we changed the message that they would be open to keeping our relationship in tact.

I told them that I would change it. About 24 hours later I went to read the message that offended them so much. As I sat there, and read it, I decided that I was not changing a thing. However, I did go to Keith and Dane and tell them what I thought. I asked if they agreed with me not changing a thing. They concurred with my decision.

I went back to BMWCCA and told them that we're not changing the message after all. We like it just the way it is.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

One thing everyone will also see today is updated user titles. They are tied to your post counts.

[Hermes]

can we at least keep the bigger mailbox?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

JP, I did not change that.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

In fact, I am taking everyone to a bigger mailbox.

[Hermes]

cool, thanks!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Effective immediately, the ZHP Mafia SIG page on Facebook no longer exists.

[BlackNTan]

I too am a little late to the discussion about dropping our SIG status. I have to admit I'm a little disappointed because I like what the CCA does, and I liked the fact we were recognized as a special (no we're not special) group (see the article in Roundel about us).

I certainly agree that sites as successful as ours need to be tightly controlled to avoid spam, griefers and general malcontents who ruin the wonderful atmosphere of the site.

However, I can also fully understand why our current "closed" status is unacceptable to a group whose aim is be all-inclusive to BMW owners and enthusiasts. I would have been very surprised if they didn't revoke our status.

Is there no way to make new membership by application only and the leadership reviews applications? Additionally, detailed membership rules could allow leadership to boot anyone not abiding by our standards.

It sounds as if this is a fait accompli, but I do wish we could have remained a part of the CCA. I will continue to be a member of both (if you guys will keep me!)

[danewilson77]

Is there no way to make new membership by application only and the leadership reviews applications? Additionally, detailed membership rules could allow leadership to boot anyone not abiding by our standards.

This is basically what we do now.

The only difference between us and CCA is that money is their requirement for entry, ours is maturity and lack of doche baggery.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[kayger12]

Is there no way to make new membership by application only and the leadership reviews applications? Additionally, detailed membership rules could allow leadership to boot anyone not abiding by our standards.



This is what non-members see on their landing page:



That said, we are willing to make exceptions. If you'd like to be a member, and think you'd fit in (browse the forum; you'll be able to tell if you're the kind of member we're looking for), shoot the administrators an email. You do that by clicking here (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/sendmessage.php). In the subject line put this: "Prospective member."

Tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us whether you'd be an active member of this community. If you're not interested in posting very often (and don't plan on being active), you're better off simply browsing the forum as a non member.

In addition to joining "off the street," you can also become a member if another member refers you. If you happen to know another forum member, contact that person and see if they'll refer you for membership. We've found that many of our best members were referred to us.

Regardless of whether you decide to submit a request to join (and get approved as a member) or whether you decide to lurk in the background, we hope that you'll enjoy your time here.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I too am a little late to the discussion about dropping our SIG status. I have to admit I'm a little disappointed because I like what the CCA does, and I liked the fact we were recognized as a special (no we're not special) group (see the article in Roundel about us).

I certainly agree that sites as successful as ours need to be tightly controlled to avoid spam, griefers and general malcontents who ruin the wonderful atmosphere of the site.

However, I can also fully understand why our current "closed" status is unacceptable to a group whose aim is be all-inclusive to BMW owners and enthusiasts. I would have been very surprised if they didn't revoke our status.

Is there no way to make new membership by application only and the leadership reviews applications? Additionally, detailed membership rules could allow leadership to boot anyone not abiding by our standards.

It sounds as if this is a fait accompli, but I do wish we could have remained a part of the CCA. I will continue to be a member of both (if you guys will keep me!)

Consider this, though: there is at least one SIG out there that charges a fee to be in the group.

You think us having a note, asking someone to email us, is on the same level as charging someone a fee to be part of the group?

This is a done deal. We won't tweak our message and our note about becoming a member is very clear -- even if it doesn't give someone the warm and fuzzies when they read it.

[az3579]

Loving the new user title. lol

[johnrando]

Personally I think the line "if you'd think you'd fit in" could be construed as a little off-putting to some, potentially elitist for the uninformed, which is essentially anyone not already it. It could be softened to something like "if you think you could contribute within the guidelines laid out and would like to join" or something like that. I'm not going to lose sleep over it though.

Oh, just noticed, "I'm a wiseguy, eh"? :thumbsup

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Yeah. I could have written it just the way you proposed, JR, and it would not have been good enough. I wasn't going to keep editing until someone approved.

It's our site. We will do it our way. Bmwcca didn't like it. Too bad.

Next.


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

[johnrando]

To be clear, I wasn't saying make a change to appease the BMWCCA.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

JR, ultimately that's what it would have been, though. Edit the message until they were content.

I didn't feel like going down that road.


Sent from my ZHPMafia.com iPhone

[elric]

Integrity of the family is more important than SIG status .... IMHO

[JG330i]

Interesting.

Oh well. Its funny, at our local Board Meeting tonight I mentioned the ZHP SIG. Oh well...someone's got a stick in their bum.

[JupiterBMW]

Integrity of the family is more important than SIG status .... IMHO

This.


Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

[Ryans323i]

One thing everyone will also see today is updated user titles. They are tied to your post counts.

And noticed that you didn't change our red screen names back to black, thanks! I like red.... a lot.

[johnrando]

Good point. Kinda like the momento... as we were family before SIG and we certainly are after.

[cakM3]

Good point. Kinda like the momento... as we were family before SIG and we certainly are after.

That's what I was thinking John!

[wsmeyer]

I don't really see the problem.

I think BMWCCA is doing the right thing by requiring SIG's to have open membership. It's not in the best interest of their members to have SIG's that they may or may not be able to join. Sure a quick email to one of our admins will probably get you in, but I don't think an exception to the open policy should be subjective. Either the SIG is open or it's not.

On the other hand, I think Marcus is doing what's right for our members by having a semi-closed enrollment. We've managed to last a few years now without rogue members dragging us all down to the level of other forums. No vetting process is foolproof so essentially what we are doing is letting people join at a slow enough rate that even if someone is a trouble maker on another forum, they won't find like minded members here, and they will quickly change their ways or get the boot.

So why is it a problem if what's best for BMWCCA members is not what's best for our members? They don't support us financially, and we don't need the exposure to attract new members. So what value do we get from being an SIG?

I'm not privy to exactly what they want but I would imagine that opening our enrollment to CCA members would probably make them happy. Sure we might get a deluge of new members at the beginning but I'm sure that would slow to a trickle within a few months.

Just my .02

William.

[johnrando]

Great points William. The simple answer is, in my mind, BECAUSE MAFIA. And if you think about it, that IS the right answer. :)

[Hermes]

I think BMWCCA is doing the right thing by requiring SIG's to have open membership..

well how does that work with all the SIG's that require a financial contribution before you can become a member (will not be naming who)... hypocritical in my book

[Marcus-SanDiego]

William, I really wouldn't mind having an open enrollment for all BMWCCA members. However, there is no way that I could configure the site so that only BMWCCA members could get in without talking to me first. Unfortunately, I would also get a bunch of Russian and Romanian spambots joining too. Similarly, I would have to contend with moderating this forum in a much more hawk-like way.

So, while I would love to allow for a bifurcated entry process, it's not possible. It's either all the way open or all the way closed. We're all the way closed but with a twist. Email me, and prove that you're human, and you're in.

Getting to your other point, though. You're correct. We don't need the exposure. BMWCCA does not support us in any way. If anything, our affiliation with BMWCCA was probably more beneficial for them -- as some of our members joined BMWCCA and ponied up $$ to do it.

Regardless, water under the bridge now. We've severed ties. I'm not expecting to reach out to BMWCCA in the future.

[zhpnsnv]

Starting to think a letter to Satch is a waste of my time because the only thing to gain is to complain. We don't need them.

[Sockethead]

Starting to think a letter to Satch is a waste of my time because the only thing to gain is to complain. We don't need them.
Well said my friend :thumbsup

[johnrando]

Nope, we never did need them.

[Torxuvin]

This place is fantastic how it is. I've been on various forums for over 10 years, and this is the best I've seen.

[danewilson77]

Got my CCA renewal paperwork in the mail today :shifty

Kind made my pencil stand up when I put it in the shredder. Kind of indescribeable really.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I would not bother with a letter. It will not change anything.

I think it's safe to say that we've all moved on.

[GMATT]

Got my CCA renewal paperwork in the mail today :shifty

Kind made my pencil stand up when I put it in the shredder. Kind of indescribeable really.


DW, I think there is much to be gained by being a CCA member. The Roundel publication in itself is worth the price of membership. I know that you don't autocross or do DE events, but those both are worth the membership.

That being said, I can appreciate and agree with the fact that the board of directors of BMWCCA have treated the ZHP Mafia in a less than honorable way. We after all are more like BMW drivers and owners in the past than the present BMW owners.

MY $.05 worth

Gary

[danewilson77]

I would not bother with a letter. It will not change anything.

I think it's safe to say that we've all moved on.

+1

[Torxuvin]

DW, I think there is much to be gained by being a CCA member. The Roundel publication in itself is worth the price of membership. I know that you don't autocross or do DE events, but those both are worth the membership.


I agree Gary. I didn't renew. Although I'm not going to take the decal off...

[danewilson77]

DW, I think there is much to be gained by being a CCA member. The Roundel publication in itself is worth the price of membership. I know that you don't autocross or do DE events, but those both are worth the membership.

That being said, I can appreciate and agree with the fact that the board of directors of BMWCCA have treated the ZHP Mafia in a less than honorable way. We after all are more like BMW drivers and owners in the past than the present BMW owners.

MY $.05 worth

Gary


Naa....I don't like being treated like that. I very rarely read the magazine, and used it primarily for the %15 off benny at the dealer if I needed a part.

What's done is done. It's shredded.

[zhpnsnv]

Naa....I don't like being treated like that. I very rarely read the magazine, and used it primarily for the %15 off benny at the dealer if I needed a part.

What's done is done. It's shredded.

You forgot to mention that now that I'm not writing anymore you have no further need for the mag ;)

[johnrando]

Well that goes w/o saying Marc!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

You forgot to mention that now that I'm not writing anymore you have no further need for the mag ;)

Hehe

[johnrando]

Just got my renewal notice. I didn't use mine at all other than the mag which I basically only read Marc's articles. I have to make a decision. If I don't renew it, I'll probably send it back to them and tell them why. You might want to do the same everyone if you don't renew. Again, I really don't care, it really just about principle and doing something about it. Even if they changed it back I wouldn't care. Too late.

[danewilson77]

Just got my renewal notice. I didn't use mine at all other than the mag which I basically only read Marc's articles. I have to make a decision. If I don't renew it, I'll probably send it back to them and tell them why. You might want to do the same everyone if you don't renew. Again, I really don't care, it really just about principle and doing something about it. Even if they changed it back I wouldn't care. Too late.

+1.

Mines shredded. Oops. Moving on.

EDIT: Maybe I should mail them the shred! That would be precious.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[johnrando]

ooooh, like!

[danewilson77]

Done.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/BMWCCA_zps03283a1a.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/IMAG2133.jpg

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I am still a member for the next three years. If I don't have a BMW at the time of renewal, I won't renew. If I do have a BMW, I will have to see whether I'm using my membership in a worthwhile way. As of late, I have not been reading Roundel. Now that Marc Biunno is no longer writing a column for Roundel, I see even less reason to read it.

[bimmeryota]

SIG or no SIG, I'm a lifetime mafia...maybe one day I'll own a ZHP too! Founders have done a great job...

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Joe, hope you're doing well.

[zhpnsnv]

I'm going to remain a member. My actual family has been associated and tied to the CCA for over 25 years (we have the pin to prove it), so I'm not going anywhere. Plus, they're the folks I like to go to the track with, and they're the folks I'd like to become a track day instructor with.

[echo46]

As I stated I am not renewing. I will send back the renewal with an explanation as to their shortsightedness.

[az3579]

Just renewed my $60-something membership. I'm a member of two chapters, and is used mainly for the track events. The HPDE's are awesome value to money compared to a Skip Barber class. Unbelievable price difference.

Track events aren't the only reason to keep it. The social events are awesome as well; the people are just the friendliest people that are passionate about their cars (some more passionate about the social aspect of it!). It feels awesome to be a part of this organization. I'm quite disappointed that so many of your are giving up your membership because of them dropping our SIG. That isn't a good enough reason, IMO. If you're not using your membership to its fullest, perhaps it's time to start!

[echo46]

Just got the Roundel Mag. Should I read or shred, you know it is the voice of the BMW club of America.

[Redrider2002]

Being relatively new to this forum, I can add that a bit of exclusivity is not a bad thing. Yes, there are some hoops, but membership has it's benefits. Unlike other enthusiast's forums, I feel that I can post here without fear of written retribution because of something taken out of context.

BMW would be just another car company if the early years were guided by the politically correct decisions.

Stay the course...

[danewilson77]

Being relatively new to this forum, I can add that a bit of exclusivity is not a bad thing. Yes, there are some hoops, but membership has it's benefits. Unlike other enthusiast's forums, I feel that I can post here without fear of written retribution because of something taken out of context.

BMW would be just another car company if the early years were guided by the politically correct decisions.

Stay the course...

Amen.

Williamsburg, VA, Droid DNA, Tapatalk

[3ZHP]

Yes, I just renewed my membership to BMWCCA for the next three years. My membership with the club started back in 2007 and I also had an issue with the club, and thought it was nothing more than a great magazine. I thought, wow this really sucks, I thought Bimmer people would be cool but, the people I met at the holiday party, well not what I was expecting. The chapter that I was assigned to covered a good portion of northeast Ohio and many of the events were an hour or more drive for me. On top of all of this, communication about these events was sketchy, heck I even attended two close events that were listed on the web page hosted by the regional governor. On one of them, I was the only person that showed up and on the other one I had dinner with only the governor, and he didn’t even have a BMW anymore. I must say, I was also a little uncomfortable having dinner with a man I just met, in a place that was strange to me. Something had to change.

I wrote a letter with attune, to the president explaining my displeasure and the fact that I never found out about the events until they were done. This got me an invite to the next quarterly board meeting. I got up that Sunday morning and made the hour drive to some Holiday Inn to meet the board. The meeting was organized and there was coffee and Danishes, OK fair first impression. When it came time for me to speak, I found out the old Web Master had relocated to Florida and that’s why the communication was so sketchy. I left that meeting that day being the newly appointed Web Master and the pay, zero, zip, nada, nothing. The only reason I did it for was to make it better for other people like myself looking for more out of the club.
Within a few months after taking office, I got my first taste of a national event and flew out to Salt Lake City to attend an all-expense paid Web Masters conference. What a great learning experience, this was and talk about feeling welcome. Through the years due to Harv’s poor health, I was able to attend a few more of these national events, and everyone was a full fact filled weekend with limited wasted time.

The club is the largest car club in the world with more than 68,000 members. Within this membership only a few are paid. Please don’t piss off people that volunteer, they won’t come back.

I truly believe that this decision to drop the Mafia Sig did not come lightly. BMWCCA has gone to great expense to try to keep the membership volume. Being that the club is so massive they run it like a business and their open to all policy is one of their survival keys. The club is really a great thing and raises huge amounts for charity every year. Along with that you get High Performance Driving Schools and many other great activates. If it’s not for you, that’s fine. If you truly don’t like something about the club, do something to change it.

All things need to be learned before they can be mastered.

[GMATT]

Yes, I just renewed my membership to BMWCCA for the next three years. My membership with the club started back in 2007 and I also had an issue with the club, and thought it was nothing more than a great magazine. I thought, wow this really sucks, I thought Bimmer people would be cool but, the people I met at the holiday party, well not what I was expecting. The chapter that I was assigned to covered a good portion of northeast Ohio and many of the events were an hour or more drive for me. On top of all of this, communication about these events was sketchy, heck I even attended two close events that were listed on the web page hosted by the regional governor. On one of them, I was the only person that showed up and on the other one I had dinner with only the governor, and he didn’t even have a BMW anymore. I must say, I was also a little uncomfortable having dinner with a man I just met, in a place that was strange to me. Something had to change.

I wrote a letter with attune, to the president explaining my displeasure and the fact that I never found out about the events until they were done. This got me an invite to the next quarterly board meeting. I got up that Sunday morning and made the hour drive to some Holiday Inn to meet the board. The meeting was organized and there was coffee and Danishes, OK fair first impression. When it came time for me to speak, I found out the old Web Master had relocated to Florida and that’s why the communication was so sketchy. I left that meeting that day being the newly appointed Web Master and the pay, zero, zip, nada, nothing. The only reason I did it for was to make it better for other people like myself looking for more out of the club.
Within a few months after taking office, I got my first taste of a national event and flew out to Salt Lake City to attend an all-expense paid Web Masters conference. What a great learning experience, this was and talk about feeling welcome. Through the years due to Harv’s poor health, I was able to attend a few more of these national events, and everyone was a full fact filled weekend with limited wasted time.

The club is the largest car club in the world with more than 68,000 members. Within this membership only a few are paid. Please don’t piss off people that volunteer, they won’t come back.

I truly believe that this decision to drop the Mafia Sig did not come lightly. BMWCCA has gone to great expense to try to keep the membership volume. Being that the club is so massive they run it like a business and their open to all policy is one of their survival keys. The club is really a great thing and raises huge amounts for charity every year. Along with that you get High Performance Driving Schools and many other great activates. If it’s not for you, that’s fine. If you truly don’t like something about the club, do something to change it.

All things need to be learned before they can be mastered.


Well said, just got my 10 year pin. HPDE's and Street Survival are among the shinning stars of CCA membership.

Gary

[Redrider2002]

All great points. Having joined the CCA in 84 (does this make me old?) and well past my 20 year pin, I recall limited if any SIGs back in the day. In retrospect, the club was concerned with growing the membership base and pontificating about why we received an anemic 121 HP 6 cylinder 3 series, while Germany insisted on keeping the good stuff. Like our cars, times change but the message remains the same. We all drive these cars because of the way they look, drive, handle and they way they make us feel. The camaraderie component was there long before the founding of the CCA. The club simply provided a platform for organized events that went beyond flashing headlights at other BMW drivers. Having attended a few early local chapter meetings, I can attest to 3ZHPGUY's testimonial. Awkward meals in strange restaurants with a couple of other members that felt compelled to attend, was more common than we can imagine, especially in the NW. Yet the club survived and grew. The BMW CCA Foundation's philanthropic activities other than questioning NA's and AG's intentions, are an important component of who we are. I suspect this grew out of the desire to be a more significant entity than merely 68,000 enthusiasts with a shared interest to own something better than basic transportation.

I applaud Marcus for orchestrating the format of ZHP Mafia. If preservation of the culture mandates secession, I trust that Marcus will make the appropriate business decision. The CCA and this forum will survive.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Well put. ^^

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Bump for those who might be looking for this.

[330i ZHP]

Were there SIGs before the Interwebz?

[danewilson77]

Were there SIGs before the Interwebz?

?

Local CCA's?

HTC DNA, Williamsburg, VA

[330i ZHP]

I am taking from the thread and looking at the magazine where it mentions the SIGs - so, the CCA is making the decision on whether a web forum of like minded members (with or without a ZHP) is open or not. So, my question is...were there SIGs before the internet? And, is having a web forum/group a requirement these days?

None of this matters since the decision was made a long time ago and there doesn't seem to be a real desire to go back.

[Hermes]

Were there SIGs before the Interwebz?

Yes. Some are very old and require a yearly membership/magazine due.

The hypocrisy in this decision is hilarious to me...

[Marcus-SanDiego]

When we became a SIG, we had an open forum. It was the closed registration of the forum that got BMWCCA's attention. It was their position that we should be open -- and that we should accept all comers.

Not all SIGs have a Web site, though. Ironically, I am guessing that if we did not have a Web site, and only had a club that met, we'd still be a SIG (assuming they ever admitted us in the first place).

Regardless of how it all turned out, having a closed forum (that's easy to join), works for us. BMWCCA members are still able to join our forum. All they do is shoot me an email and let me know that they would like to join. 99.9% of the time I respond by asking them for a proposed screen name. BMWCCA could not accept this method. They decided that, in order to be a SIG, we needed a fully open forum where anyone could join.

My guess is that if we had an open forum and kicked people out from time to time that BMWCCA would have had an issue with that as well -- especially if a BMWCCA member was the recipient of that ass kicking.

So, in the end, it really became a situation where BMWCCA said that they'd like us to conform to their rules. We were not interested. We went our own ways.

[wertyu78]

By the way, one of the board members runs another forum. He says that they have put all kinds of safeguards in place to prevent spammers from getting on to the site. I certainly appreciate that board member's time and definitely appreciated the suggestions. However, in the end, we're not reopening this forum to people who can't behave themselves and conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner.

During the second half of 2012 I was rarely around the site. Keith wasn't around that much, either. Dane pretty much handled this forum on his own.

I believe that he was able to do that, though, because the membership is tremendous at policing itself. You guys stand for the same things that we stand for. As such, you don't tolerate trouble. Moreover, you don't cause trouble. I believe, at this point, that Dane, Keith, and I could walk away as moderators and have this forum run pretty smoothly. That's saying a lot. I don't think most forums could pull that off. Too many morons have been allowed to stick around forums. But for moderators, those morons on other forums would be going crazy and running amok.

I'm pleased to say that I could not imagine our forum ever being anything other than fun, respectful, and safe.

I love this forum. Long live the mafia