Got some bad news today

[Asiah119]

Well, gentlemen, I got the news I never hoped to hear. Cylinders 1 and 5 failed a leak down test. I'm not really in a position to sell the car and buy a new one (long story). I could possibly sell the car for about what I have left on my loan and be honest about the engine. Or shell out and fix it.

If I go the fix it route what other than the rings (and the waterpump+thermostat would you put on the table to do as well?

[Johnmadd]

Engine swap would probably be your best option as far as financially and time the car is down would likely be less.

[Hermes]

if you're fixing piston rings then you might as well change the head gasket and maybe get some upgraded pistons/rods

edit: maybe do CCV while you have it apart

[UdubBadger]

wow that sux.

I'd have to say the smartest financial decision is usually fix and keep, even though it'll hurt your wallet upfront more than anything. Probably cheaper than selling at a loss I'd have to think. :dunno

[Asiah119]

I asked my mechanic to run some estimates on the work and a family friend directed me to one of his pals that knows his way around an engine. Time isn't a huge issue; my wife and I can deal with having one car for awhile.

Are the VANOS and DISA worth proactively replacing? Would I be able to drop a standard M54 in and put the ZHP cams on and that would bring it to where it needs to be or would I need to get a specific ZHP built M54?

Im trying to research upgraded pistons, but feeling around in the dark, where would you knowledgable fellows direct me?

[UdubBadger]

no you can buy the cams and such aftermarket so that is possible but you'd also need the software. I know tischer sells the ZHP kit on their site.


I'd say if you're in there replace the vanos and DISA for sure!

[mimalmo]

How mechanically inclined are you? Have you ever done an engine swap?

[Asiah119]

This is way out of my league. I'm decent at reading manuals and turning a wrench but this isn't the kind of project I would want to take on without someone who has done it before and can keep me from destroying something. No where to do it on top of that.

My mechanic said that BMW would be happy to sell me a new engine the total with labor would be something in the 13k range. I managed to not laugh. The friend of a friend route is seeming like the winner.

[danewilson77]

Well, gentlemen, I got the news I never hoped to hear. Cylinders 1 and 5 failed a leak down test. I'm not really in a position to sell the car and buy a new one (long story). I could possibly sell the car for about what I have left on my loan and be honest about the engine. Or shell out and fix it.

If I go the fix it route what other than the rings (and the waterpump+thermostat would you put on the table to do as well?

Why did you do the leak down test?

[mimalmo]

Having a "friend of a friend" work on it is only a good idea if he knows his way around a BMW. Otherwise, chances are he'll eff up the bumper when he removes it, put incorrect fluid in it, not replace parts that should be replaced, etc. Basically, I wouldn't hand this off to anyone that can turn a wrench.

You want to find someone that's worked on BMW's for several years and can take it apart/put it back together successfully. If you can't afford that, I'd buy a beater for DD'ing and spend 3 months doing it on your own before I'd recommend handing it off to someone that is more accustomed to working on Fords, Chevy's, Toyotas and Hondas.

[Asiah119]

Dane, I was prompted to do the leak down after I changed my oil and it was especially dirty (7K miles). I had been burning some oil but only really when I drove hard so I didn't think much of it at the time. And there was a little bit of blowback that I noticed.

Eli, The friend is a family friend who goes to VIR frequently and I'm pretty sure is affiliated with one of the driving schools. I believe his friend is also an instructor and was described as 'the guru in our group and general master mechanic in all things automotive'. The guy has also rebuilt my friend's father's E30 engine. Normally I would be wary of the friend of the friend, but this passes my test.

[danewilson77]

So...it still runs pretty good?

[johnrando]

Wow, that is bad news. I can't offer mechanical advice but I'll offer up my sympathies for your car troubles, and the techies will help get you there. Hope things work out.

[Hornung418]

Bummer dude.

If you want the quick and dirty, buy a M54B30 and swap the cams. Long road, buy a cheap DD and do the repairs as necessary. Shame the rings blew...Shouldn't have been an issue with a car as young as yours.

[Asiah119]

Dane: Yeah, it runs well, just burns a bit of oil, I'm not sure how steep the decline to driving with a permanent trail of blue smoke behind me is going to be.

Hornung: Yeah, the age of the car is why it took me so long to consider that the rings were going. My usual shop basically quoted me the resale of the car for a new engine swap.

The good news is that I don't need a DD for the foreseeable future so my wife and I can make due. If it comes down to it I may be able to beg my way into borrowing a car from a friend's fleet.

My mechanic said that the're a chance that it's something in the head, not just a guarantee that it's burnt rings. I'm assuming that there isn't really a way to diagnose that without driving in and pulling the head off?

[nike001]

Having a "friend of a friend" work on it is only a good idea if he knows his way around a BMW. Otherwise, chances are he'll eff up the bumper when he removes it, put incorrect fluid in it, not replace parts that should be replaced, etc. Basically, I wouldn't hand this off to anyone that can turn a wrench.

You want to find someone that's worked on BMW's for several years and can take it apart/put it back together successfully. If you can't afford that, I'd buy a beater for DD'ing and spend 3 months doing it on your ow

For some reason... and I'm not sure why, there is this preconceived notion that BMW engines are products of witchcraft. All engines are similar in that they're an internal combustion engine with all the same parts as any other engine. Sure, there are torque specs and all the rest of that jazz.. but someone who knows their way around an engine should already know this & their specs.

I wouldn't choose a friend of a friend who is doesn't do anything and wants to take a stab at it, nor would I necessarily choose a backwoods mom n pops garage that barely looks like they're able to do safety inspections. But my father works with a guy in his mid to late 20's who takes apart, rebuilds, and works over carbureted small block chevy V8's that net 500-600hp. Just goes to show that there are some people out there that know the ins and outs of engines that like to mess around on the side..

[Johnmadd]

Having a "friend of a friend" work on it is only a good idea if he knows his way around a BMW. Otherwise, chances are he'll eff up the bumper when he removes it, put incorrect fluid in it, not replace parts that should be replaced, etc. Basically, I wouldn't hand this off to anyone that can turn a wrench.

You want to find someone that's worked on BMW's for several years and can take it apart/put it back together successfully. If you can't afford that, I'd buy a beater for DD'ing and spend 3 months doing it on your own before I'd recommend handing it off to someone that is more accustomed to working on Fords, Chevy's, Toyotas and Hondas.

+1
Also, it would be a lot easier for a general mechanic just to unplug all electrical parts on the engine and disconnect the transmission and swap engines other than go inside the engine, it will be easier, quicker, and if you find a good used engine there will be less chance for your mechainc to mess up potentially. Fyi, used engines can be found for pretty cheap.

[mimalmo]

It's the same reason we all take our cars to specialty repair shops for basic service instead of the local garage. You want someone that's familiar with the cars, has the tools, skills, etc. Otherwise you end up with a guy that tops off your coolant with the standard stuff, doesn't use the right oil, doesn't understand VANOS, uses the wrong jack points, I could go on and on....

It becomes even more critical with something such as an engine swap.

[Johnmadd]

Eli, just wondering why you say the swap would be even more complicated?

[mimalmo]

Fully disassemble the front of the car, drain all the fluids, disconnect all the electrical sensors, disconnect fuel lines, HVAC, disconnect transmission, etc, etc.

Now I suppose you could just drop the new motor in and reconnect everything but what if your shade tree mechanic isn't familiar with BMW's so he misses a sensor, pinches a wire, refills with a wrong fluid, doesn't reassemble the front bumper correctly, etc?

It could go smoothly or it could be a total nightmare. Why gamble? Do it right with someone knowledgeable. Sounds like the OP has someone lined up that he trusts.

[Johnmadd]

I'm just saying that the technical aspect of a motor swap as to doing internals is much easier. :)

[mimalmo]

You could apply your same logic there too. Swapping a piston on a Chevy is the same as swapping a piston on a BMW, no?

The point I'm trying to make is that with a project this large and critical, having someone who's knowledgeable on BMW's is a must have.

[WOLFN8TR]

Man that sucks...Sorry to hear the bad news. :eyetwitch

[Johnmadd]

You could apply your same logic there too. Swapping a piston on a Chevy is the same as swapping a piston on a BMW, no?

The point I'm trying to make is that with a project this large and critical, having someone who's knowledgeable on BMW's is a must have.

Point taken , but I am known not to debate much and I disagree on this one respectively.. an engine swap for the same engine is more wrench turning but less technically challenging and is therefore not as specific to a certain engine or brand.

[Asiah119]

Does anyone have an opinion on the pros and cons of searching out a short block and replacing that. Over pulling the pistons and replacing the rings.

I'm getting slightly hung up on the uncertainty of potentially putting another problem into my car. And my first inclination is to want to pull it apart anyway and make sure that it's sound; which kind of nullifies the point of getting the new short block.


My head is full of fuck trying to figure this all out still. The labor is going to be extensive either way. The price tag is going to be big either way. It seems to be that the labor savings from replacing the block is eaten in the cost of buying the block. The only gain seems to be the time.

I'm having a stupid idea also of putting headers on. I mean, everything is pulled apart anyway right. Any recommendations that fit in the good inexpensive quality triangle? There isn't an emissions test where I live so catless isn't an issue.

[mimalmo]

All the E46's I've heard with headers are louder than I'd like for a DD and get really raspy when used with the stock exhaust. That said, I'm old.

[Hornung418]

With just replacing the piston rings, you know what condition your engine will be in. The leakdown test with a new block could prove that it's sealed, but you have no prior history of the block and how it was treated. I'd save this engine if you have the time and money. Better for resale and will only increase it's lifespan.

Whip out the spreadsheets and create different scenarios how your engine rings can get repaired. Be sure to examine all of the "while I'm in there" items and determine if they are wants or needs. Do what you can to get the car back on the road for the priority you feel is best.

[Washburn]

sorry to hear about this..Hope you find a good solution - keep us updated, please...

So what can CAUSE something like this? what can one do to prevent this from happening ?

[Asiah119]

Eli: I used to drive a 68 mustang with a 289 that had headers and fairly wide open set of mufflers. I'm actually a little bothered by how quiet the stock exhaust is.

Hornung: I'm leaning towards the straight rebuild and replace what part that need it. With the cost of the block evening out the total cost the time doesn't seem to be that big of an advantage especially with the piece of mind that I'll gain.

[Asiah119]

Washburn: the most likely cause is that a previous owner drove it hard without allowing the engine to warm up first.

[HokieZHP]

I'm actually a little bothered by how quiet the stock exhaust is.


Yeah I know what you mean, I was too. Full Magnaflow system fixed that for me haha. Love the sound now!

[bimmeryota]

Dane, I was prompted to do the leak down after I changed my oil and it was especially dirty (7K miles). I had been burning some oil but only really when I drove hard so I didn't think much of it at the time. And there was a little bit of blowback that I noticed.

Eli, The friend is a family friend who goes to VIR frequently and I'm pretty sure is affiliated with one of the driving schools. I believe his friend is also an instructor and was described as 'the guru in our group and general master mechanic in all things automotive'. The guy has also rebuilt my friend's father's E30 engine. Normally I would be wary of the friend of the friend, but this passes my test.

I've never had a leak down test performed before, how bad was it compared to the other cylinders?... How bad the compression is in the affected cylinders? If it still runs good could you just keep driving it? I wouldn't think it would make things worse.

I've never driven my car hard when it's cold and it does use some oil from time to time but got better after my CCV was changed but I still have to put oil in between changes of no more than 7000 miles. You've got me concerned with mine now because for the longest time I've had a slight knock upon light acceleration ONLY when cold but I just drive it easy til it warms up and has never gotten worse.

I'm going to skip a leak down test in fear of what lies beneath... my car runs great, sounds great, and luckily for CA burns clean!

[Asiah119]

I don't remember the specific numbers from the test.

My oil consumption was something like a quart every month - month and a half. Also if I did a hard shift into second from. High revs I get a puff of Blue smoke and can smell burning oil in the car. I thought I had a failing gasket. Apparently not.

The test was only $150. If you're worried about your engine I'd say that it's not a high price for the piece of mind.

That knock sounds like it's worth investigating.

[static667]

I'm actually doing an engine swap myself. The mechanics of it aren't the difficult as its pretty much "plug and play". If you decide to go the engine swap route and have a mechanic do the work, be wary of the source for your engine. I've been going around and around with some issues for two months now. This was all because I'm trying to do my job on the cheap. I really should have spent the extra cash and gone with a company like Bavarian Auto Recycling (http://www.bmrparts.com/used_bmw_engines.html) for the engine. You can see one of theirs for sale here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-330Ci-2DR-E46-ENGINE-ASSEMBLY-Long-Block-/360520483744?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f0b203a0&vxp=mtr). You could just have your mechanic change out your cams and it would be good beyond that.

[bimmeryota]

I'm actually doing an engine swap myself. The mechanics of it aren't the difficult as its pretty much "plug and play". If you decide to go the engine swap route and have a mechanic do the work, be wary of the source for your engine. I've been going around and around with some issues for two months now. This was all because I'm trying to do my job on the cheap. I really should have spent the extra cash and gone with a company like Bavarian Auto Recycling (http://www.bmrparts.com/used_bmw_engines.html) for the engine. You can see one of theirs for sale here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-330Ci-2DR-E46-ENGINE-ASSEMBLY-Long-Block-/360520483744?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f0b203a0&vxp=mtr). You could just have your mechanic change out your cams and it would be good beyond that.

Awesome Static! what prompted your swap or is it just for fun? I look forward to hearing about that...

[danewilson77]

Awesome Static! what prompted your swap or is it just for fun? I look forward to hearing about that...

His engine died.

[bimmeryota]

His engine died.

Well that's no fun then...

[RedTRex]

New guy here but I have many years of experience working on BMWs. I would be very ineterested in knowing the results of a compression test dry and wet (Only difference in wet test is squirting some, 1/4 to 1/3 oz maybe, of oil into each cylinder before attaching the tester. Compression test along with leakdown needed to properly diagnose this engine.
- BMW bottom ends are generally bulletproof. I am more inclined to think you have a headgasket (or head.... read valves) issue. It is the weakpoint of the M54 engine usually precipitated by cooling system issues/overheat.
- A complete engine swap is PnP as mentioned. a plain old M54 would work. Cams are only thing different and need to be swapped but without the Vanos timing tools (rent/borrow) and experience inside a BMW engine I wouldnt even attempt. Cams are easy to snap in half - I did it once.
- Parts are under $1k for a rebuild - Rings, Bearings, gaskets, etc. Machine work maybe another $250 on the block. Head $350 if it just needs valves cut, surfaced, pressure tested and cleaned.
---- FYI BMW pistons a very expensive, Around $1000 a set for a 6 cyl and not many places sell them.

[Asiah119]

Red, the results of the leadown was that two cylinders failed outright and a third was on its way. I probably said it earlier in the thread but if I remember correctly it was something like cyls 1 & 5 were bad and 4 was on its way. My blind guess would be that if it was a head gasket issue it would be contiguous cylinders? The one guy I was looking at getting the work done was leaning towards cracked rings. There's no knocking, no misfiring. My usual shop and the guy I was looking at were both of the opinion that the best way to figure out what's wrong is to do exploratory surgery.

What would the results of the wet\dry compression give me for diagnostics? Essentially I'm looking for a way to discover if it is a head versus a bottom end issue.

[telijah]

Regardless of which end the problem is, the labor and parts are much more than to throw in a used engine. I money shifted and bent nearly every valve in the head. I wish I knew this was the case before having a shop rip off the head, because then I simply would have replaced the engine. Instead, I paid somewhere just north of 4000 to have just about the entire top end rebuilt. I think the cams were the only thing not replaced. Everything valve-related was replaced.

Edit: Sorry if this is a moot point, I jumped into this thread late and only responded based on the last couple of posts. My bad.

[RedTRex]

well from compression test I could tell you if your HG is bad or your rings are bad.

[Asiah119]

Telijah: engine swap and repair have been coming up just about on par with the places I've been talking to. BMW quoted something like 30 hours for a swap and 40 for a repair. The tech for the shop that I frequent has been tied up with working on an M3 with a crank position sensor issue so they haven't been able to talk to him about how long he thinks it would take. The friend of a friend put it in the 60 hour range. Everything I've seen has had buying a replacement engine at a wash because the money you would save in 10 hours of labor is more than put into buying an engine.

Red: What I was trying to get at was how would the results show the difference between a bad head gasket or a bad ring, or a bad valve?

[telijah]

If it helps, here was a breakdown for my head job when I money shifted: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akj3gbGTbpgqdGRONlBwWXZadHk3Y05PUzFRWUlnS Xc

27 hours total labor to replace every valve and some extras.

[sketchyd]

60 hours labor for which option? that seems very excessive. my shop just did an audi a6 3.0 motor swap for under 40 hours, and that's much more complicated.

as for the compression results, a dry compression check tells you if the cylinder isn't sealing. by adding a capfull of oil to the suspect cylinder, that will help seal the piston/rings, so if the result is better, it suggests a ring issue.

good luck with your choice, it's a big decision i know.

[Asiah119]

I think the bmw quotes were 40 hours for swap 50 for rebuild, and then the guru said that it would be something in the range of 60 for a rebuild for him but I've only spoken to him on the phone so it may end up being significantly less.

[Asiah119]

Update: The friend of a friend called one of his friends and located a zhp engine somewhere in Tennessee. The total is looking to be something in the mid 3k to 4k range.

The next big question. Fix the old block and resell it in great condition, or sell it as is and market it to an auto-x who is going to want to do aftermarket work anyway?

[johnrando]

Kyle (static667) needs an engine, ping him.

[danewilson77]

Kyle (static667) needs an engine, ping him.

He already purchased #5.