Brakes... Squishy Pedal...

[JupiterBMW]

Alright guys, the brakes are all done... Of course, not 100%... I bled them and pushed the new ATE blue all the way through the lines, no air, and crisp blue fluid coming from the bleeder screws...

I went for a test drive. Pedal was squishy as hell. But, I drove it and it felt alright. So, I went through a bedding procedure. 10 hard stops 60-10 followed by 30 minutes of highway to let them cool completely. Then I did 10 more stops, followed by some more cooling driving. I definitely got them warm as I was getting a fair amount of brake fade and a lot of smoke on the hard braking...

Well, pedal was still really soft, and during the hard brakes, it was going just about to the floor, and not stopping like it should.

So, I brought it home to bleed again. I bled it again, and just went out for a drive. Its better, but still not great...

Just to recap... I went with the TMS cross drilled rotors, Axxis MetalMaster pads, and the StopTech SS lines.

The only question... The kit came with two small washers, which I can't find a use for anywhere... No instructions with the kit, so I have no idea...

As for bleeding, I have bled many cars before, so I'm not new to that. Unless BMW is different...? I did the usual, start furthest from the master cylinder... RR, LR, RF, LF... I did 3 hard pumps/hold, then open bleeder, purge, close bleeder... Lift pedal and repeat... Did a LOT of that. I pushed about 20 ounces through to get the old fluid out, and about 10 more ounces through today..

For reference, the ATE can that Turner sent me with the kit is about 25% full now.


Anyone can offer some help? Thanks in advance! :thumbup

[Jesse M]

We pretty much have the same setup except I have the axxis ultimate. To my understanding, the washer goes on the end of the brake line that attaches to the hard line for the fronts.. So one face of the washer sits on the SS line (female end) and the other on the bracket attached to the body of the car, then you just screw the hardline on to hold it all together. The washer just gives you more surface area to mount to the bracket.

And I used about the same amount of fluid. Maybe 20% left.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3

[JupiterBMW]

Hey man, thanks... Not sure if you noticed, but I'm the guy that PM'd you on E46f. Yeah, we have the exact same setup with the exception of pads.

Thanks for the info about those washers. Although, that doesn't make much sense to me... The bracket that's attached to the car has a 12 point "groove" in it, so the 6 sides of the hard line actually fit into that and 'lock' it in place... So, the fact that I didn't install those washers doesn't really bother me...

The pedal feel, still bothering me... I have to figure that out still.

[danewilson77]

I don't see any washes on the parts diagram.

http://www.penskeparts.com/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=47725&rnd=03192010

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[terraphantm]

*every* time I removed lines from my cars, I ended up getting air trapped in the ABS system. This resulted in a squishy pedal.

Only way I've ever been able to fix that was by using DIS to bleed the ABS pump. Nothing else worked.

[M0nk3y]

When you bled the brakes...did you push the pedal down all the way?

You could of worn out master cylinder seal

[JupiterBMW]

Yeah Dane, its definitely not something that was there to replace an OEM part... No washers were removed that should've been replaced... And for what its worth, I think Jesse M is stating that the washers go between parts #5 and #6, on drawing number 34_1086...

I don't know... I've done so many brake jobs, I can't see any problems here to know where the issue is...

[JupiterBMW]

When you bled the brakes...did you push the pedal down all the way?

You could of worn out master cylinder seal

My wife was doing the pumping.... Hold the comments please... :facepalm

But I did tell her to pump and hold it firmly... But if I did, wouldn't I see a brake fluid loss somewhere... Geezus, I hope this isn't the problem, master cylinder swaps are a pain in the ass!

[JupiterBMW]

*every* time I removed lines from my cars, I ended up getting air trapped in the ABS system. This resulted in a squishy pedal.

Only way I've ever been able to fix that was by using DIS to bleed the ABS pump. Nothing else worked.

Or, find a slightly sandy/wet patch of road and go lay on the brakes through that to activate ABS... That's how I did it in my last car... Hmm, maybe this will be the problem.

[M0nk3y]

My wife was doing the pumping.... Hold the comments please... :facepalm

But I did tell her to pump and hold it firmly... But if I did, wouldn't I see a brake fluid loss somewhere... Geezus, I hope this isn't the problem, master cylinder swaps are a pain in the ass!

Most of the time this isn't the issue. Just trying to cover all places where this could result.

[JupiterBMW]

Yeah thanks man... I did a LOT of bedding after I installed, and the pedal feeling never got worse (aside from the fade when they got hot), not to mention, the fluid level never changed. So I'm not losing fluid anywhere... I'm really hoping there is air in the ABS unit and that's my problem, although I don't know... I don't think the reservoir ever got low enough while swapping lines or bleeding... We'll see I suppose. I don't have the DIS to activate it manually, so perhaps tomorrow I'll try and find a road to activate it on...

We shall see...

[terraphantm]

Or, find a slightly sandy/wet patch of road and go lay on the brakes through that to activate ABS... That's how I did it in my last car... Hmm, maybe this will be the problem.

That didn't do the trick for me - it helped, but the car still wasn't quite as good as I remembered. I then did the DIS procedure and saw plenty of air come out. Pedal was as hard as a rock at that point

My reservoir never got low either -- I think enough air was able to work its way into the nooks and crannies of that pump while the lines were off.

[Hermes]

I used the same technique on every car I've ever done and have rarely ever had an issue.

My procedure has always been to use the turkey baster technique to pull most of the old stuff from the reservoir, fill again with the new fluid, attach power bleeder and pump to 15psi, proceed to the furthest bleed valve and work my way in (but every once in a while check the reservoir and top off fluid and/or pump it again to 15psi). Make sure the container you are bleeding into is sitting above the level of the bleeder valve.

Jon, one last thing... I didn't see you mention bleeding the clutch? When I do a MT car I bleed the clutch after the rear brakes and before the fronts.

[terraphantm]

I used the same technique on every car I've ever done and have rarely ever had an issue.

My procedure has always been to use the turkey baster technique to pull most of the old stuff from the reservoir, fill again with the new fluid, attach power bleeder and pump to 15psi, proceed to the furthest bleed valve and work my way in (but every once in a while check the reservoir and top off fluid and/or pump it again to 15psi). Make sure the container you are bleeding into is sitting above the level of the bleeder valve.

Jon, one last thing... I didn't see you mention bleeding the clutch? When I do a MT car I bleed the clutch after the rear brakes and before the fronts.

I don't think the issue is simply when bleeding. It's changing lines that's the problem. You can't leave the system pressurized if you're removing lines - otherwise fluid will go everywhere. And at least in my experience, those brief moments with the lines off are enough to allow some air to make its way into the ABS pump. Once it's in there, simply pressurizing the system does not necessarily eliminate the bubbles.

YMMV of course, but I've run into this enough times that I refuse to change lines without access to a working install of DIS

[Hermes]

I guess now that I think about it I never changed lines on a car with ABS before. Now I know what I'll need to do when I get around to changing the lines on the ZHP

[JupiterBMW]

Hmm, well I had the lines off for quite some time as I spent a few days doing my brake job. I had the ends of the hard lines capped so I assumed no problem, mostly because I've done this in the past with other cars. But maybe you guys are right.

So next question... Do I need to get DIS and get involved in using that? Will this setup work? It looks fairly complete... http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-STD-OBD-USB-Diagnostic-cable-INPA-DIS-v57-SSS-v32-GT1-PROGMAN-/251187771864?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a7bf539d8

Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

[Hermes]

just drive to a good Indy and have them do it, give them $20 for their time

[JupiterBMW]

So freaking frustrating... The dealer won't touch the car because they say its aftermarket and they don't want to be liable for anything like that... Seriously?? :facepalm

I spoke to a guy at a recommended Indy shop and they want $150 to do a bleed and flush... I told them I don't want it flushed, just hooked up, cycle the ABS and make sure everything is clear of any trapped air...

Sooooo frustrating...

[wsmeyer]

I've read about air in the ABS and using a computer to activate it but I'm skeptical that it's as simple as cycling the pump. My hunch is you have to cycle it while you are bleeding the line so that the air actually gets removed and not just sucked back in to the ABS.

William.

[JupiterBMW]

Yeah honestly, I can't believe its made the pedal as soft as it is... I've replaced lines and bled cars with ABS before and never this problem... Of course, no fix as of yet either... So frustrating, not easy to find a good Indy shop around my area. We shall see...

Free beers for anyone that wants to come over and help! :rofl

[wsmeyer]

Found this about using INPA to bleed ABS on an E9x:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598994


William.

[wsmeyer]

Full directions for E46 bleeding with INPA: (UNTESTED)

Open INPA.
Select E46
Select Chassis
Select DSC MK60
Select Activate (F6)
Select either F2 or F3 (ABS FL RL or FR RR) depending on which one you are bleeding
When you hear the ABS buzz, open the bleed valve. It will then make a second noise where is activates the valves at which point the pedal will start going down in pulses and the fluid will start coming out the caliper.
Repeat.

This sounds very interesting as it would mean an easy way to thoroughly flush and bleed your lines and ABS by yourself. I'm going to play with it this weekend and report back.

William.

[terraphantm]

I've read about air in the ABS and using a computer to activate it but I'm skeptical that it's as simple as cycling the pump. My hunch is you have to cycle it while you are bleeding the line so that the air actually gets removed and not just sucked back in to the ABS.

William.

You are correct in that it's not simply cycling the pump.

Basically you pressurize the system, load up the ABS bleeding function in DIS and follow the onscreen instructions. It will instruct you to open up a bleeder, make a lot of noise, and push some fluid out. Depending on which valves have air trapped in them, you may or may not see some bubbles flow out.

In my case, almost all of the bubbles came out of the driver-side front

Maybe I should do a full write-up...

INPA's bleeding functions are not the same as what DIS does - in my experience it's no where near as effective. This is one of the few cases where it's advantageous to have the dealer programs rather than the factory programs.

[JupiterBMW]

These ideas all sound great, but I still need to get all of the software and the cable right?? Frustrating...

[terraphantm]

Buy this cable: http://www.amazon.com/OBD2-Diagnostic-Cable-KKL409-1-VAG-COM/dp/B002WIN8VQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1353736936&sr=1-1&keywords=VW+409

It won't have battery and ignition detect like a cable meant for BMWs, but that doesn't really matter. If that bugs you, look for a "D-CAN" cable.

Then find DavidMc's 4shared folder (there's a link and password somewhere in the diagnostics section of bimmerforums) and download EDIABAS 6.4.3 and EasyDIS v44. There are guides on how to set all the software up.

[JupiterBMW]

Well a little more to update. I manually bled the ABS unit today and it seems a bit better. I didn't get a lot of air out, at least it didn't seem like it, but the pedal is a lot better. It's still kind of soft, definitely not as firm as it should be for having the SS lines, but it's getting better. I'm hoping one more drive to do some panic stops and get the ABS activating, then one more set of bleeds (ABS and wheels) and I should be done.




Sent from my hybrid iPhone 4/4S... :shifty

[Sockethead]

You are correct in that it's not simply cycling the pump.

Basically you pressurize the system, load up the ABS bleeding function in DIS and follow the onscreen instructions. It will instruct you to open up a bleeder, make a lot of noise, and push some fluid out. Depending on which valves have air trapped in them, you may or may not see some bubbles flow out..

What version of DIS are you using and where is it? I'm running V.52 I think... I can't find the bleeding function anywhere...

[terraphantm]

What version of DIS are you using and where is it? I'm running V.52 I think... I can't find the bleeding function anywhere...


I've used both v44 and v55 with success.

I do remember it being a bit tricky to find the function. I'll try again tomorrow and take screen shots. I won't actually perform the bleeding procedure though - but it should be pretty straight forward once you get to the function

[Sockethead]

Thanks, I had the same problem as the OP when re-did my brakes but I couldn't find the bleeding procedure. It will be good info for everyone...

[Newjack]

I'm having the same mushy pedal feeling that Jon was having. I can lock up the brakes and brake normally, but my pedal is not as firm as it was before I did my brake job. Identical problems Jon had. (Let me know if you got it fixed and what you method you used).

So now I have another question. How can I explain this procedure to my mechanic so that they can completely bleed my brakes and flush bubbles out of my abs and or DSC system? I'm not very well versed on this topic and coding is something that is still relatively foreign to me. Any help would be appreciated, and as soon as I get home from work I will be able to research a little easier.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[M0nk3y]

Anytime I've done my brakes and flushed the system, I didn't cycle ABS. The amount is so minute, it just isnt worth it to go through the coding to activate them.

Oddly, when I did the brakes on my 128i and Z4, I needed to bleed the system. I did have a soft pedal...probably compressing the piston created air within the system or something.

[danewilson77]

Anytime I've done my brakes and flushed the system, I didn't cycle ABS. The amount is so minute, it just isnt worth it to go through the coding to activate them.

Oddly, when I did the brakes on my 128i and Z4, I needed to bleed the system. I did have a soft pedal...probably compressing the piston created air within the system or something.

+1

Samsung Galaxy S5...

[Newjack]

I know that replacing the brake lines are what led air into the system, and I can tell that there is definitely a small amount of air still in the system. I did take my car for a little drive after work. Got DSC to kick on multiple times and verified my ABS system is working. (When you trigger ABS the DSC light doesn't flicker right?). I want to say the pedal feels slightly better but I'm not sure if its in my head or not.

Either way having a squishy pedal is like waking up one morning and your right leg is all of a sudden 3/4 of an inch shorter than the left leg. It just doesn't feel right.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[JupiterBMW]

Hey Rob.... I replied to your PM, hopefully your indy can help, or you can get the car to a dealer for an accurate bleed. I laid out my bleed method to you step by step, and hopefully it helps. I had a MUCH better experience doing the brakes on this car than I did on the last one..

Good luck buddy and drive safe... Brakes are of course important!

[Newjack]

Hey Rob.... I replied to your PM, hopefully your indy can help, or you can get the car to a dealer for an accurate bleed. I laid out my bleed method to you step by step, and hopefully it helps. I had a MUCH better experience doing the brakes on this car than I did on the last one..

Good luck buddy and drive safe... Brakes are of course important!

Replied back. Thanks Jon!