Gruppe M intake (Look Quickly!)

[HokieZHP]

Hey guys so I have the chance to pick up an authentic Gruppe M intake and was wondering what you guys thought about it and what a reasonable price for a mint one is. I'm talking to the owner right now so quick responses are much appreciated.

[ryankokesh]

Eh, they kinda suck. Totally not for you.

So what's this guy's number?

[danewilson77]

I would'nt pay more than $300

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[HokieZHP]

Alright thanks. We'll see how it goes. If I don't end up buying it I will share the buyer with you all.

[cakM3]

Good luck Chris!

[HokieZHP]

I can only get him to $350 shipped and insured...decisions decisions

[nike001]

I would'nt pay more than $300

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

I was going to recommend this price as well.

I can only get him to $350 shipped and insured...decisions decisions

As I said above, $300 is about right for me. But the extra $50 might be worth it. That's about going price for a regular intake.. so it depends on how much extra you're willing to pay for something you want. Honestly, $350 isn't really extreme in terms of price. Seems pretty fair to me.

[BCS_ZHP]

An alternative, the AFE CAI is available from auto anything.com for $36x normal price with free shipping. Then they offer a 10% discount for 1st time customers and the price comes out to $330 -- coincidence??

[HokieZHP]

It may be worth it just because of the rarity of the piece and condition. I'm going to think about it overnight and let him know tomorrow.

[MiniD]

I can't tell you how many times I had to pull my self back from a Gruppe M CAI when I had my ZHP.

It does look awesome but I ended up getting an ECIS + heat shield and was more than happy for 1/2 the price. Just my $.02. $350 is a lot of moo-la for an intake.

[HokieZHP]

I see the ECIS intakes for $240?

[JupiterBMW]

Why is it so desired?? Does anyone on here have one? Pics? Thoughts?

[HokieZHP]

From what I've read, it blocks the engine heat well, it sounds incredible and gives as good of gains (barely any if any) as other intakes.

[Hermes]

Derek has it:

http://img.skitch.com/20120212-ughjb9gscdukqi7dqp1yq2thg.jpg

[HokieZHP]

Who is this Derek fellow?

[JupiterBMW]

Derek has it:

http://img.skitch.com/20120212-ughjb9gscdukqi7dqp1yq2thg.jpg

Oh, wow... Well, if you love it, go for it. Personally, I think its pretty fugly looking... I know, that's a silly reason to NOT get it, but eh, just looks awkward to me. Cool to see something different I guess!

[Hermes]

Who is this Derek fellow?

derbo

[HokieZHP]

Oh yeah I saw it in his thread and asked him about it but never got a response

[danewilson77]

To me...it look like you lose all of the air coming in through grill scoop.

It's a beautiful piece, on the table but in the car...I'm not sure it looks quite right.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[HokieZHP]

Yeah I was looking at that as well...i can't decide

[ryankokesh]

I think Seth may have one...

[328ioc]

I realize peoples concerns over the looks but from what I have heard this is one of if not the best sounding and performing intake.

My vote is for 350 get it, and enjoy the function over the form and the amazing sounds you will make.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[UdubBadger]

I have one - totally worth it, hope you picked it up Chris... I should read the last 2 pages huh?

[UdubBadger]

Ok caught up.



BUY THE DAMN THING!!! Sound is amazing, function is all there.

DO NOT BE FOOLED BY IMPOSTERS!
5720

[cakM3]

To me...it look like you lose all of the air coming in through grill scoop.

It's a beautiful piece, on the table but in the car...I'm not sure it looks quite right.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

Dane, that's what would stop me from getting this although it is an awesome CAI. At least with the BMW Performance, K&N, or Afe CAIs you still retain the grill scoop...


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[HokieZHP]

Thanks Seth, I'm getting more pictures tomorrow just to verify and then will most likely pick it up. This coupled with the new Magnaflow exhaust (which should be here wednesday) should make a nice sound!

[Hornung418]

Meh...any intake that is just a cone that bolts on to the MAF is pointless. A true CAI like the OG DINAN long tube would net you a legit 7-10. This just makes the air turbulent and spoils the air flow. Stock intake could outflow the GruppeM. Only benefit is noise.

Horney...via TT.

[UdubBadger]

Stock intake with a drop in maybe.

However that also has to make 2 90 degree turns to get in to the filter. the air with the gruppeM is smashed right into the cone with no bends and is further from the block for less heat soak (theoretically).

It's not a true cai but about the best you'll get on an e46. :dunno


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[Hornung418]

Have you opened the stock air box? Where are these magical 90 degree bends hiding? All that's there is a smooth flowing stack that leads right into the MAF.

A true CAI is easily attainable for under $150. All you need is a quality dry air filter some hose clamps and a nice piece of 3" silicone tubing with a 60 degree bend.

Heat shielding does nothing to alter the temperature of the intake air on this set up. Money saved.

But what about hydrolocking?! Wat.

Water getting into the intake and making its way to the cylinder and actually being enough of it to brake something in the engine is extremely unlikely. You'd have to drive into a sink hole and if you do lock the engine, that's the least of your worries.

Why pay for something that doesn't work? Makes no sense to me.

Horney...via TT.

[HokieZHP]

Have you opened the stock air box? Where are these magical 90 degree bends hiding? All that's there is a smooth flowing stack that leads right into the MAF.

A true CAI is easily attainable for under $150. All you need is a quality dry air filter some hose clamps and a nice piece of 3" silicone tubing with a 60 degree bend.

Heat shielding does nothing to alter the temperature of the intake air on this set up. Money saved.

But what about hydrolocking?! Wat.

Water getting into the intake and making its way to the cylinder and actually being enough of it to brake something in the engine is extremely unlikely. You'd have to drive into a sink hole and if you do lock the engine, that's the least of your worries.

Why pay for something that doesn't work? Makes no sense to me.

Horney...via TT.

my pants are no longer as tight after reading this..however my plan was to get both this and the Cosmos and compare the two then sell whichever one I like the least.

[derbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDwc-benMqo&feature=g-upl

The camera is catching the GruppeM intake noise more than anything. :)


Dane, it does lose the air from the grille but it does get air from the bottom below the headlight.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=653046



I've noticed in recent years that the GruppeM intake has had a pretty bad rep around the forums, especially amongst some of our newer members (2007+). I think this is due to it's high price and the common misconception of how the intake actually works. Also note that replica GruppeM intakes aren't true replicas in the fact that the heat shields have different shapes. I had my car apart today while I was replacing my thermostat and water pump, so I decided to take some pictures to illustrate how the GruppeM works.

This is the GruppeM intake installed. I believe many people have based their opinion on this intake purely off what they see in this picture. An intake snorkel that goes nowhere and a heat shield stuck up against the backside of the headlight, yuck!

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe6.jpg


This is the intake in it's raw. It is specifically designed to scoop cool air and block heat from the alternator and engine. The heat shield on mine is made of carbon kevlar. Take note of the shape of the heat shield.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe2.jpg



This is the area where the intake will be installed. I've labeled some key components in the picture to help get an idea of where things are in relation to the intake. The alternator and expansion tank can become quite hot when the engine is at full operating temperature.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe1.jpg


This is the intake after it has been properly installed. The alternator and expansion tank have been completely covered by the heat shield. The filter on the intake also has plenty of surface area. Also note how low the intake actually sits.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe3.jpg


Here is another picture of the intake installed. I've highlighted the area in blue of where the air is actually supplied from. This is a rather large opening that feeds down to the bumper, right where the brake duct and fog light sit. Notice how the heat shield sits nicely against this opening. This same opening is used by intakes such as Dinan, Benfer, etc that take their air from the same location.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe7.jpg

Here is a bird's eye view of the opening. I've labeled the fog light and brake duct to give you an idea of where this opening actually leads to. Plenty of cool air is provided by this area. It's common for people with the GruppeM to actually cut a small portion off of the top of their brake duct to supply additional cool air.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe4.jpg


This picture goes back to the intake snorkel that goes nowhere. While it may lead nowhere, it is actually acting as a "cooling fan" for the intake's heat shield. Heat shields can actually absorb a lot of heat. This cooling method helps to keep temperatures down.

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/gruppe5.jpg


That's all I have. I hope after reading this it has shed some light on how this intake actually works. A common misconception is that the air is take from the back of the headlight. As illustrated in the preceding pictures, the air is taken from the lower part of the bumper, same location that the Dinan, and like intakes, take their air from.

You might be asking yourself, "why does he care so much?", and the answer is, I really don't care. I just think a lot of false information goes around this forum. Years ago the GruppeM was regarded as a great intake and loved by most. In the snap of the finger, nowadays it seems people have nothing but negative things to say.

Feel free to discuss. Comments both positive and negative are welcome.


Additional Info:

GruppeM Dyno:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52167&d=1051068218

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=24845

[Crestwood1001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDwc-benMqo&feature=g-upl

The camera is catching the GruppeM intake noise more than anything. :)


Dane, it does lose the air from the grille but it does get air from the bottom below the headlight.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=653046

That's a sin to have such a nice intake in such a dirty engine bay

[UdubBadger]

Have you opened the stock air box? Where are these magical 90 degree bends hiding? All that's there is a smooth flowing stack that leads right into the MAF.

A true CAI is easily attainable for under $150. All you need is a quality dry air filter some hose clamps and a nice piece of 3" silicone tubing with a 60 degree bend.

Heat shielding does nothing to alter the temperature of the intake air on this set up. Money saved.

But what about hydrolocking?! Wat.

Water getting into the intake and making its way to the cylinder and actually being enough of it to brake something in the engine is extremely unlikely. You'd have to drive into a sink hole and if you do lock the engine, that's the least of your worries.

Why pay for something that doesn't work? Makes no sense to me.

Horney...via TT.

The bends I was referring to are from grilles to filter.

Hydro locking could be a concern however I'll point out that I've never had an issue in the 10 years I've owned cars with ram intakes on them as well as the fact that ive never met anyone else oit there in the world who's had it, let alone with this intake.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending it cuz I have one or spent money on one... It was free and came with the car.

It's style mixed with function. Dyno proven gains over stock air box. Plus it's all CF and looks good under the bonnet. You pay the price to get both in 1 package.

:dunno


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[derbo]

I bought one under $300 and I say its sounds fantastic. I didn't get the intake for HP, i got it for noise so i could hear the car during track days. If I wanted power, that would be in a supercharger/turbo. :))

[HokieZHP]

Pants are tight again! Thanks for the info Derek! I'll try and read through that thread tomorrow when I don't have Dynamics hw due haha

[Hornung418]

It's not about where the air comes from, it's how it gets read by the MAF. And an open filter attached directly to the MAF is doing nothing to help your readings thus negatively affecting performance.

Horney...via TT.

[derbo]

It's not about where the air comes from, it's how it gets read by the MAF. And an open filter attached directly to the MAF is doing nothing to help your readings thus negatively affecting performance.

Horney...via TT.

What does an open air filter do to the MAF? I'm curious.

My impression how an MAF sensor (hot wire) works is that a wire with electrical current in it is placed in the flow of the intake. That wire is subjected to air flow and changes the wire's temperature which affects how it adjusts the current to reach the ideal temperature. The circuit that detects the changes is then sent to the DME. I'm not an expert so that's all how I thought it worked.

I'm guessing the open air filter slapped onto the MAF doesn't provide the proper laminar flow required for an accurate reading.

[Hornung418]

Precisely. The long tube provides the flow necessary to allow for accurate readings while increasing volume.

THIS THREAD ( http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=763498&highlight=) highlights the main differences between intakes, and while its an import magazine, the science is still there and by a reputable individual as well.

Don't mind Carcus, he's a huge douche. Dare I say it, a bigger one than Iceman....

Horney...via TT.

[UdubBadger]

If thats true then how does this intake consistently make 10hp on a dyno?

[danewilson77]

I dunno Seth. You really believe all the dyno numbers that get put out? If you do.....my AFE puts out 20 HP, and 27 ft-lbs of torque.

http://afepower.com/shop/details_new.php?partno=54-10451&filter&menu=gas&engine=3.0L&searchtype=vehicle&make=BMW&model=330i&year=2004&engine=3.0L&&brandID=52

Even the BMW Performance intake (which seems to be a favorite), only consistently dyno's a 6 HP gain.

[M3TA5IN]

I'm with Justin on this one. If all you care about is look and noise then by all means get whatever makes you happy. I'm all about functionality though, so I would say BMW performance for e46 IMO. although I'm not as up to date on intakes for the e46 platform as you guys.

This is the reason I don't have a CAI on the e90. Was saving penny's for the euro air box (same as BMW PE) without the fancy carbon fiber. Only CAI with proven, not skewed smoke and mirrors, gains.

On the M3 once I get to where I start messing with the engine bay, the active CAI will be the first thing to come off. Yea it sounds good, but functionally it is not doing anything for me if anything hurting me. Will probably do bimmerworlds intake.

The other thing that kills me about the aftermarket CAIs I the "heat shields". I mean come on, you don't need to have a degree in rocket science to look at those and realize they aren't stopping a lot of heat.


Edit: if I was all about looks and sound I'd get a gruppe M all the way.

Sent from my fancy city machine.

[derbo]

Precisely. The long tube provides the flow necessary to allow for accurate readings while increasing volume.

THIS THREAD ( http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=763498&highlight=) highlights the main differences between intakes, and while its an import magazine, the science is still there and by a reputable individual as well.

Don't mind Carcus, he's a huge douche. Dare I say it, a bigger one than Iceman....

Horney...via TT.

I realize that a long tube provides proper laminar flow. I want to take off the Gruppe M intake off and see what is behind the Air Filter. I almost positive it has the velocity stack as well. I think the gains are neglible with the intake. I got the intake for noise during track days so I could hear the damn thing during racing. From the looks of it, I probably have the same HP as a stock intake. If I ever get some dynotime, I'll try and bring my stock intake and see what I end up with both intakes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/Velocity_stack_detail.gif


Reason I didn't get a BMW performance one is that there is no reusable filter. I didn't feel like buying air filters all the time for this thing. I also noticed its quieter than the rest of the intakes. Dinan was definitely on the list to get as well and AFE. It was really whichever one I found cheaper under $300 right off the bat.

[UdubBadger]

Ok fair enough


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[nike001]

OP, Sack up and get individual TB velocity stacks

http://www.loxlee-loves-engines.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/mike-burroughs-bmw-e36-trumpets.jpg

[Hornung418]

That's a completely different game...although I did see a set of six on bf.c for $260 + shipping :shifty

Horney...via TT.

[webster]

$350 shipped seems pretty reasonable. not a big fan of the look personally (i prefer OEM clean look), but if the sound is there, and that's what you'er after, then go for it!

[Hornung418]

It would appear from their website that they also use K&N wet filters...which can foul the MAF and also throw off readings.

And Derek, the website also shows no use of a velocity stack, rather a crude coupler and a length of PVC.

http://www.gruppem.co.jp/matching/products_search/details_en.php?goods_id=1286

[macpro_racer2010]

I've been waiting for the best price on an AFE CAI. I pulled the trigger today! Total cost for the PRO DRY S was $298.32, regular price was $350.97, I used the coupon code MYRIDE15 (15% off). Thanks for the info Bruce :thumbup

[danewilson77]

That's an amazing price. I paid closer to $390.00 I believe, for the PRO5R, then went to dry.

Closest I could find to that....

http://www.truckpartshub.com/product/afe-pro-dry-air-intake-04-06-bmw-x3-3-0l-l6-51-10451

[derbo]

It would appear from their website that they also use K&N wet filters...which can foul the MAF and also throw off readings.

And Derek, the website also shows no use of a velocity stack, rather a crude coupler and a length of PVC.

http://www.gruppem.co.jp/matching/products_search/details_en.php?goods_id=1286


It looks like that crude piece called a "funnel" would be their excuse of an velocity stack. I was wrong about a velocity stack being behind there. Thanks bud for the enlightenment.

Now you have me wondering about intake HP now.. DAMMIT. :) Ignorance is bliss..

[Hornung418]

Sorry :wub

Horney...via TT.

[HokieZHP]

Cough Cough....something else I've always considered... http://www.carbonio.com/performance/brand/bmw/e34-99-intake.html

[Hornung418]

That's a nice piece...

Horney...via TT.

[HokieZHP]

Yeah, it can be found cheaper but to me it looks the same as the Dinan piece.

[BCS_ZHP]

Chris,
Are you going to buy this Gruppe or not - inquiring minds need to know?
Bruce

[HokieZHP]

I plan to pending pics which are apparently coming soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BCS_ZHP]

So let's look at it:

If you do and like it, fine. If you don't like it, then resell it.

Is you don't and it sells, you'll be kicking yourself in the @$$ with what-ifs.

I say buy it, try it, and if you don't like it then just resell it.

[HokieZHP]

Yeah I plan to buy it. Just waiting for this guy to send me pics so I can confirm that it's real.

[UdubBadger]

I've HIGHLY considered a stack for this car.

[JupiterBMW]

FWIW, 328ioc has the AFE and I checked it out. I'm not a huge fan of the big aluminum lid (looks out of place to me) but the construction looks very nice. If I wasn't going for a Dinan setup, I'd go with the AFE for sure. Horsepower is negligible as wit the majority of the intakes here, but damn did it sound amazing!

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone 4/4S hybrid on Tapatalk...

[HokieZHP]

I had an AFE pro5R for a while and sold it. It causes the intake boot to bunch behind the MAF which I didn't like. From asking around, I was not the only one who this happened to.

[derbo]

I had an AFE pro5R for a while and sold it. It causes the intake boot to bunch behind the MAF which I didn't like. From asking around, I was not the only one who this happened to.

Replace it with a silicon boot?




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[HokieZHP]

They're the same length, and I didn't want to cut the silicon boot and risk damaging it. But it seemed like it was restricting a lot of airflow.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/08/bupujene.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/08/pu9u5a3y.jpg

[HokieZHP]

So another question now, does anyone know if an AFE dry filter will fit on the gruppe? I'm wanting to get rid of the oil filter in place of a dry one and am looking for one that would fit.

If anyone has a prodry S can they post the dimensions of it here?

[UdubBadger]

pretty sure they are already AFe filters anyway :dunno

[HokieZHP]

I believe they're K&N actually but not 100%. Especially since the instructions tell you to reoil with a K&N kit

[UdubBadger]

yeah that could be. check the inner dimensions of k&n against AFe's

[mimalmo]

Yeah, I had one of these on my car when I sold it to Seth. Hands down, the best sounding intake I've heard on the E46.

[UdubBadger]

Still there boss, still sounding like sweet sexx


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[Hornung418]

It's a k&n...

This post brought to you by Uncle Clark's Anti-gravity Cream. Put some on your Super Collider just before the Big Bang.

[328ioc]

Here you go bud. They arnt the best pics but the opening at the end of the filter is about 5.5 inches and very flexible so I am sure it could fit something slightly bigger if need be.

5970

5971


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[Hornung418]

That won't fit in the housing.

[328ioc]

That won't fit in the housing.

+1 I was bored so I did a little more research and it looks like you can only buy the filter from GruppeM

K&N wont even sell it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=769567

[HokieZHP]

Dang I thought I had read that somewhere. I was browsing through the aFe website and might give them a call to see if they have a dry filter that'll fit the housing


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[328ioc]

I mean they might have something from some other make and model but idk.

Ill have a look around the web for you maybe we can turn something up.

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[HokieZHP]

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for. I'm on my way home this afternoon so I'll take the filter off and get some measurements when I get home.


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[derbo]

if I have time, I'll be on the hunt as well. :)

[328ioc]

Just an FYI to Hokie and derbo, afe will build custom filters.

There is a section on their website where you can just input the dimensions.

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[HokieZHP]

Did not know that. I'll definitely look into that tonight! Thanks!


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[Radarcontact]

So let's look at it:

If you do and like it, fine. If you don't like it, then resell it.

Is you don't and it sells, you'll be kicking yourself in the @$$ with what-ifs.

I say buy it, try it, and if you don't like it then just resell it.

That's EXACTLY what I did about 18 months ago. Hmm...might be my old one that's for sale again! Lol


iPad/TapaTalk

[derbo]

Just an FYI to Hokie and derbo, afe will build custom filters.

There is a section on their website where you can just input the dimensions.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Hopefully next week I will remove the intake and take measurements and email AFE to see if they can make me a filter.

[328ioc]

Hopefully next week I will remove the intake and take measurements and email AFE to see if they can make me a filter.

You shouldn't even have to email them. Just use this.

http://afepower.com/shop/custom/filter.php

Cant wait to see if it works out for you guys.

[ryankokesh]

So if I don't really care about hp gains and just want an intake for the awesome sound, what's my cheapest option? Is k&n acceptable?


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[328ioc]

So if I don't really care about hp gains and just want an intake for the awesome sound, what's my cheapest option? Is k&n acceptable?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In theory you could just put a cone filter on your maf and get noise. But this would be a bad idea.

I am not sure of the exact prices but I would bet k&n, ecis, and afe are all around the cheaper end but don't quote me on that.

Personally I have the afe and i would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.

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[ryankokesh]

I think the k&n tends to be cheaper, which is why I'm kinda interested in that. Definitely always hear good things about afe though, so maybe I'll just save my pennies and pick up one of those someday.

[328ioc]

Yeah I would say check a few websites see what the prices are.

I do know that the afe can be had for around 350.

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[derbo]

I went out to clean my Gruppe M intake and went to clean it as well.

Seems like the size is a little odd ball.

http://imageshack.us/a/img41/6262/img2403fn.jpg

The inner diameter is around 5 3/8" with an outer diameter of 7 3/4" with no real flange connection. The height of the intake is around 4" with a little silver ball on the top of the intake that is about 3" diameter. The AFE intake BYO section doesn't have these options so it looks to be an email in type of deal.



Side note: it looks like a mini velocity stack in it from the earlier conversations.


http://imageshack.us/a/img401/8298/img2402sk.jpg

[328ioc]

That is a very interesting setup indeed.

[HokieZHP]

I noticed the velocity stack thing as well when I went to clean my filter. Definitely a unique setup though.

Has anyone had a chance to call AFE about a dry filter?

[derbo]

I would imagine AEM/AFE put their velocity stack curve on the filter flange where as on the GruppeM it is seperate. It still probably wont make any HP, and I merely got it for sound :) Any real loss/gains are side effects haha.

I haven't gotten a chance to email them, but you are welcome to do so Chris.


http://afepower.com/shop/custom/contact.php

[danewilson77]

Has anyone had a chance to call AFE about a dry filter?

I thought you had the Gruppe?

[HokieZHP]

I do, but I want a dry filter for it and AFE apparently does custom filters

[danewilson77]

I do, but I want a dry filter for it and AFE apparently does custom filters

Hehe....

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[JPMo]

12 years later but How did this end up? was AFe able to build a custom filter?