Why not a BMW M3?

[Alphatek45]

So I went to grab a few beers with a buddy of mine last night and we got to talking cars. I was explaining to him the things that Ive done already, the things I will definitely do and the fact that forced induction keeps make its way to (the bottom) of my list.
His immediate response was "gotta be careful because you will spend so much cash, you could have just picked up an M3."

I told him that the zhp was simply the platform I wanted to work with,that Ive seen a bazillion M3's on the road and although I do love them, I never had that warm and fuzzy feeling like I get with the ZHP.

I guess its really a matter of personal opinion,but is the M3 a significantly superior automobile? Since it is so close to our car, is there anything (other than budget) that made you guys not consider it?

No doubts here, just found myself thinking about his statement this morning so I figured Id ask...

[Tampa330i]

I'd have probably gone with an M3 if I had the $$$. I don't regret getting the zhp though, still the best car I've ever owned.

[az3579]

It's fatal flaw is that it doesn't have 4 doors. Another big downer is that it literally guzzles gas. Finallly, valve adjustments for the loss. If I had an M3, I'd be adjusting those blasted valves every few months. :shifty

[kayger12]

Couple of issues for me:

1. Practicality- I needed something that could be a DD, but also something that I could put the wife and kids in without being unreasonable. I pushed that envelope with a coupe, but would have pushed out of it with an ///M.

2. Maintenance Costs- I need to be able to diy my ride. I had a certain level of comfort with the M54. In addition I did some research and saw a marked difference in parts prices and potential maintenance costs. Again, just wasn't willing to go there at this point.

3. Intangibles- I just love everything about the ZHP. I love the synergy of the vehicle. I love the fact that it doesn't feel as common as the ///M. I love the fact that it seems to attract the enthusiasts amongst enthusiasts.

I will have an ///M someday, but it will supplement the ZHP, not replace it.

[Alphatek45]

#3 = Mind reader.

[danewilson77]

4 doors and maintenance costs.....plus gas mileage.

[az3579]

I forgot to mention that everyone and their mother has an M3. Common = boring. ZHP = not common.

[zhp43867]

The M3 is too rough around the edges:

- Gas mileage (16-18mpg)
- Valve adjustments
- All other maintenance costs (Water pump= $400, Vanos= $1k)
- Suspension is no good compared to the zhp (over-sprung, too high, needs to be changed for aftermarket)
- Not as classy as the zhp (evokes more images of look-at-me boy racers)
- The good and bad things that come out of being "an M3 owner".

I've had the opportunity to trade my zhp for an M3 and haven't.

[danewilson77]

The M3 is too rough around the edges:

- All other maintenance costs (Water pump= $400, Vanos= $1k)


Are these shop costs or diy costs?

[Marcus-SanDiego]

So I went to grab a few beers with a buddy of mine last night and we got to talking cars. I was explaining to him the things that Ive done already, the things I will definitely do and the fact that forced induction keeps make its way to (the bottom) of my list.
His immediate response was "gotta be careful because you will spend so much cash, you could have just picked up an M3."

I told him that the zhp was simply the platform I wanted to work with,that Ive seen a bazillion M3's on the road and although I do love them, I never had that warm and fuzzy feeling like I get with the ZHP.

I guess its really a matter of personal opinion,but is the M3 a significantly superior automobile? Since it is so close to our car, is there anything (other than budget) that made you guys not consider it?

No doubts here, just found myself thinking about his statement this morning so I figured Id ask...

Pretty easy for me. I originally thought the ZHP would be my wife's car. She was looking for a cruising car. Something that was tame, smooth, and looked good. She didn't have a need or a want for the performance from an M3. We had the 335 for that. Indeed, unless we're talking about a newer M3 (E9X), my 335 is a more powerful machine than the M3.

If I didn't have the 335, and I was not looking for a cruiser, then maybe the E46 M3 would have been a consideration. For my situation, though, it didn't make any sense.

[rikdee]

I owned an M3, albeit an E36. Given a street application, the M offers no practical advantage (wow factor aside). Any advantage of an M-car is to be found on the track. As a DD, it is stiffer and a bit more harsh, more difficult to maintain, more expensive to insure, etc. Our ZHP will deliver every bit the satisfaction of an M-car when driven side by side on the street. Heck, when is the last time you practiced powered oversteer slides through a six lane intersection, tested threshold braking at every stoplight, or bumped on the speed limiter driving downtown? For these exercises, the M would probably do better everything else being equal, but let's be realistic about daily application. IMHO, we all drive the right car...

[zhp43867]

Are these shop costs or diy costs?

Part costs.


I owned an M3, albeit an E36. Given a street application, the M offers no practical advantage (wow factor aside). Any advantage of an M-car is to be found on the track. As a DD, it is stiffer and a bit more harsh, more difficult to maintain, more expensive to insure, etc. Our ZHP will deliver every bit the satisfaction of an M-car when driven side by side on the street. Heck, when is the last time you practiced powered oversteer slides through a six lane intersection, tested threshold braking at every stoplight, or bumped on the speed limiter driving downtown? For these exercises, the M would probably do better everything else being equal, but let's be realistic about daily application. IMHO, we all drive the right car...

That said the E36 M3 is a much better and smoother DD than the E46 M3.

[danewilson77]

Dang......

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[mimalmo]

For me, the 4 doors was important. I've got 3 kids and we've only had all 5 of us in there a few times but it is nice having a second vehicle that we can all fit in if we need to.

I do wish I had the M3's LSD and extra 100hp though...

[Washburn]

More practical - performance AND DD ability/fuel econoly well blended
Less common than M3 - M3 still being built, E46 ZHP no more (exclusivity)
Easier to maintain/lower costs
Looks special enough to grab attention of the knowledgeable, but not too gimmicky looking to be obnoxious - again, well balanced in the looks dept.
NEEDED an auto - possible with ZHP.

[SC4ME]

Four doors and a DD is the main reason.

Hard to do this on a daily basis in a coupe
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/SC4ME/100_1099.jpg

Then when upkeep costs are included - and those extra HPs (while nice) just mean more $$ in valves, tune-ups, tires etc without the opportunity to really enjoy.

Still, I agree that the only missing feature is a LSD (group buy then an install weekend would be fun).

[mimalmo]

BTW, everyone here keeps mentioning the valve adjustments on M3's as being an additional cost. Keep in mind, that's something that can be done on your own (there are DIY's) and the majority of M3's when checked don't need any adjustment.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5644371&postcount=10

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=MorePartInfo&PartID=805323&siteid=214672&catalogid=4462

[Jon D]

More practical - performance AND DD ability/fuel econoly well blended
Less common than M3 - M3 still being built, E46 ZHP no more (exclusivity)
Easier to maintain/lower costs
Looks special enough to grab attention of the knowledgeable, but not too gimmicky looking to be obnoxious - again, well balanced in the looks dept.
NEEDED an auto - possible with ZHP.


After a fair bit of self debate about looking for the right SMG M3 vert, I concluded all of the above were the reason to keep what I have. A current M3 would get me there but the vert hardtop just doesn't work for me. Oh and no payment is hard to beat.

[Alphatek45]

Great feedback,guys. Just what I expected.

[DESANT]

Was looking for BMW with auto transmission for my wife - now it is my car. Back then if I was shopping for myself would be M3 with manual trany (didn't know anything about ZHP). After DD S4 for 5 years 330Ci is a bit underpowered but way way way more fun to drive and overall much better built and very solid car. BTW 2001 Audi S4 5 years of ownership = $17,000 in maintenance.

[3ZHP]

When I was looking to upgrade my first Bimmer and before I knew about the ZHP the e46 M3 was the most appealing but way out of my budget. I never liked the what they did to the the E46 in 2002 with eliminating all of the nose and tail detail. I thought it was fugly. The ZHP is a great car and I like the rarity of it. I hate trying to find my car in a parking lot when there are 4 or 5 that look exactly like it. That seldom happens with a ZHP.

The ZHP however is no comparison to the M3. That M engine is a beast, with a cast iron block pushing 333 HP in the US 343 HP elsewhere, with a 8000 RPM rev limiter. That is over 100 HP per liter. For more info on the differences check out the M Registry page below.



http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=19

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Cars are like tools. You'd hope each car you own has a specific purpose. I didn't have any use for an M3 tool. I did have a use for the ZHP tool.

[pyreguy]

I like your tool analogy. I, like many of you, wanted the best e46 4d they made. Kids make the extra doors a necessity. I was happy to stumble on this ZHP and now that I have it and have learned about the ins and outs, I am glad that I have a ZHP over an M3 even if they made a 4dr version. The ZHP fits me better in pretty much every way. I would enjoy the extra power of the M3, but I don't feel myself missing it on a daily basis.

[Maximus57]

For me, the 4 doors was important. I've got 3 kids and we've only had all 5 of us in there a few times but it is nice having a second vehicle that we can all fit in if we need to.

I do wish I had the M3's LSD and extra 100hp though...

I agree on the extra 100+ hp. I've not had the pleasure of driving an E46 M3. If it handled anything like the ZHP with more ponies under the hood, I would be all over it. I'm curious if any of the 335 owners have spent any time with the E46 M3. I'm speaking of coupes only in this case. How did they compare the handling.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I have experience with E46 M3s -- but not on the track. I also have an E92 335 (coupe).

When you compare the E46 M3 on the street versus a stock 335 on the street, it's obvious that the E46 is tighter (on curves, for example). The sport suspension on the 335 is relatively mushy compared to the E46 M3. Also, I noticed more body roll on the 335.

However, my 335 has KW v2 coilovers. It's tight. Feels quite similar to the E46 M3.

If you are going stock M3 v. stock 335, the stock M3 feels tighter in every regard. You have to go aftermarket on the 335 to approach the E46 M3's handling characteristics.

[mimalmo]

I have experience with E46 M3s -- but not on the track. I also have an E92 335 (coupe).

When you compare the E46 M3 on the street versus a stock 335 on the street, it's obvious that the E46 is tighter (on curves, for example). The sport suspension on the 335 is relatively mushy compared to the E46 M3. Also, I noticed more body roll on the 335.

However, my 335 has KW v2 coilovers. It's tight. Feels quite similar to the E46 M3.

If you are going stock M3 v. stock 335, the stock M3 feels tighter in every regard. You have to go aftermarket on the 335 to approach the E46 M3's handling characteristics.

X2. I've got friends with both and that is a very accurate description. Now, if you were to add some handling mods to the E46 M3....game over in the handling dept.

[Maximus57]

Great info guys. I just want to get my 135i to handle more like the ZHP. It understeers like crazy. Removing the runflats helped a bit.

[zhp43867]

BTW, everyone here keeps mentioning the valve adjustments on M3's as being an additional cost. Keep in mind, that's something that can be done on your own (there are DIY's) and the majority of M3's when checked don't need any adjustment.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5644371&postcount=10

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=MorePartInfo&PartID=805323&siteid=214672&catalogid=4462

Don't understate the difficulty either... A lot of people on this forum are not DIYrs and a valve adjustment is no small feat. It seems to take 5-8 hours for people their first time IIRC. I don't want anything to do with it.

Give me my ZHP with a Technique Tuning Stage 2- and I'll kill M3s with change in my pocket and a grin on my face. :)

[jjcools]

I chose the ZHP due to price and convenience, plus less maintenance costs. I think drivability is a big deal for most on this site also.

[thesixsins]

If the M came with 4 doors I would have one right now. If I had 2 doors I wouldn't have rear seats.

[az3579]

BTW, everyone here keeps mentioning the valve adjustments on M3's as being an additional cost. Keep in mind, that's something that can be done on your own (there are DIY's) and the majority of M3's when checked don't need any adjustment.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5644371&postcount=10

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=MorePartInfo&PartID=805323&siteid=214672&catalogid=4462

All fine and dandy if you have the space and time to do it. If you're like me, who'd have to do it (or at least check) twice during the winter from driving so much, in sub-20-degree weather, it would get old reeeeeeeeeeeeally fast.

[mimalmo]

The adjustment checks are at 30k intervals. That's every 2-3 years for most people.

[az3579]

The adjustment checks are at 30k intervals. That's every 2-3 years for most people.

I've been seeing numbers half of that.


I remember that for the E30 when it still had the M20 in it, the valves had to be checked every 12k, which is why I believed the 15k or so number I heard for the S54.

OK, so every 30k miles. For some people like me, that's every year.

[danewilson77]

Me too.......that would suck.

[Linh]

I must admit, one thing that would shy me away from getting the M3 was the valve adjustments every 30k.

I don't really mind the increase priced on parts, thats a given. And being able to work on the car myself is really important.

Hopefully, working on the M54 will give confidence to move up to the s54.

[zhpnsnv]

I don't see the E46 M3 as "close" to the ZHP. To me, the ///M is a much more pointed, specific performer.

If my income, lifestyle and commute warranted it, I'd have bought an M3 over a ZHP. I'm going to drive this thing until the doors come off then reassess. It's the perfect car for me right now.

[johnrando]

Agree with most posts... M3 somewhat of a purpose built "racer", obviously more expensive, not as street refined... not something the wife would want to drive on occasion, as she does with my ZHP. ZHP best all around car for the money in my mind... Would love an M3 as a 3rd car. John

[onepercent]

I have wanted an M3 for a while, and have at times looked at a trade, but it's senseless, because the ZHP is a better fit for my needs. It's just that the ///M that appeals to me. If I had more disposable income I would probably get one.

In all honesty, I wouldn't use the M3's capabilities at all on my normal drive. I do take curves pretty hard in the ZHP, but the major benefit of an M3 over a ZHP isn't so much the suspension as it is the power. I rarely approach the limits of my ZHP's power-- though it's a joyous experience when I do.

All in all, the better gas mileage, lower maintenance costs, and lower insurance costs work for me while sacrificing maybe a little bit in handling (but let's remember, ZHP is a bit more comfortable too) and also sacrificing some power that's mostly unusable on public roads.

I reckon that one day I'll pick up an M3 to complement, not replace, my ZHP. I'll drive the ZHP as long as I can. For me, best daily driver ever.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I have wanted an M3 for a while, and have at times looked at a trade, but it's senseless, because the ZHP is a better fit for my needs. It's just that the ///M that appeals to me. If I had more disposable income I would probably get one.

In all honesty, I wouldn't use the M3's capabilities at all on my normal drive. I do take curves pretty hard in the ZHP, but the major benefit of an M3 over a ZHP isn't so much the suspension as it is the power. I rarely approach the limits of my ZHP's power-- though it's a joyous experience when I do.

All in all, the better gas mileage, lower maintenance costs, and lower insurance costs work for me while sacrificing maybe a little bit in handling (but let's remember, ZHP is a bit more comfortable too) and also sacrificing some power that's mostly unusable on public roads.

I reckon that one day I'll pick up an M3 to complement, not replace, my ZHP. I'll drive the ZHP as long as I can. For me, best daily driver ever.

^^ solid answer.

[Alphatek45]

Indeed. Lots of em.

[jsachs71]

For me it was mostly covered in all of the posts: easier ownership with significant driving enjoyment. The value was also important; I saw my 2004 as a DD I could drive for 3 more years and probably still find someone who would kill to make it his (or her) first cool car for 9-10K... That would end up putting my cost of ownership at about 3.5K/year (exclusive of any required maintenance, of course...) CHEAP THRILLS!

Of course, having owned her, I'm not sure I'll ever get rid of her...