Dr. Vanos or Beisan for M54 Vanos fix

[UdubBadger]

Deciding on how to do my Vanos in the next month before Timmayfest. I want to make sure I'm at full power for my dyno sessions and drag strip event.


The Beisan way is obviously a little cheaper ($120 appx for both seals and rattle) but looks as though it probably takes longer to do. I am about a 3 out of 5 wrenches kind of mechanic so anything that involves heavy electrical or the motor I try to stay away from. I would most likely take the car in to have this done so add in another $65 a hour for labor costs.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/index.html

Dr Vanos is just a swap kit, I assume they rebuild the Vanos units and take yours back after swapping for a core charge. It's about $250 and seems easier to swap the entire Vanos housing than go in and fix via the Beisan route. I would still most likely take this in for a pro to do for me (so again add $65/hour labor) unless it's mind numbingly easy in which case I'll force Ryan to do it for me against his will using some sort of bribery or possibly even blackmail. :gun1

http://www.drvanos.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3


So what are everyone's thoughts on the matter?
Thanks

[webster]

i plan on DIYing w/ the Dr Vanos kit along with the VCG and new plugs. i'm probably less skilled with a wrench than anyone on this board, but i think i can do it...

[WOLFN8TR]

I did my Vanos recently using the Beisan kit. Also did the VCG and plugs. The Vanos rebuild wasn't hard at all just time consuming. If you are doing the VCG and plugs your halfway there anyway.

[cakM3]

Webster...that makes both of us. I chose the Mafia meet to do this since there will be many talented folks there to assist :thumbsup

[zhpnsnv]

I plan on the same - dr vanos when the time comes (soon).

[ryankokesh]

I was gonna offer... don't have to jump straight to blackmail! lol

[zj96sc]

Go with Beisan...the instructions are excellent. Clean workplace and basic tools is all you need. Save the $ and use Beisan and diy fo sho!

[johnrando]

No idea, but I need to do mine soon. I'm thinking Beisan with a qualified assistant around.

[ryankokesh]

besian is what I used previously, and will probably use with the zhp. I haven't done the rattle kit, though it looks pretty straightforward.

[elric]

I did the Besian system about 6 weeks ago .... seals only. Was not difficult at all. Online instructions are great.

[webster]

for those who have done the Vanos procedure, is a deep socket for the 1/2'' drive 13mm really needed for the vanos mounting bolt/stud if you are replacing the entire Vanos unit outright? it says so on the beisan website, but not sure if it's necessary for the Dr Vanos...only tool on the list i don't have...

[kayger12]

I plan on the same - dr vanos when the time comes (soon).

Let me know if you want help. Happy to pitch in.

...and by pitch in I mean install it for you while you keep me company and drink beer.


Go with Beisan...the instructions are excellent. Clean workplace and basic tools is all you need. Save the $ and use Beisan and diy fo sho!

Beisan instructions are definitely outstanding, but its only cheaper if you already have the impact wrench, 24mm deep socket, vice, and vice liners. Otherwise the cost is pretty close.

If I didn't already have the Beisan anti-rattle spacers on hand, I would have just saved the time and gone with Dr. Vanos this time around.

I went Beisan on my 325 (seals only) and found it simple enough, but didn't have to go through cracking open the pistons for the spacers.

I'll be tackling this after SIGfest.

[zhpnsnv]

Let me know if you want help. Happy to pitch in.

...and by pitch in I mean install it for you while you keep me company and drink beer.





Hahahaha you read my mind.

[328ioc]

Thanks for your input Keith.

I totally forgot about needing an impact driver nor do I know any one who owns one.

Looks like I will be going with Dr. Vanos.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[acontzhp]

Thanks for your input Keith.

I totally forgot about needing an impact driver nor do I know any one who owns one.

Looks like I will be going with Dr. Vanos.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I actually did my besian system vanos without an impact driver. Just a regular socket wrench

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

[danewilson77]

Thanks for your input Keith.

I totally forgot about needing an impact driver nor do I know any one who owns one.

Looks like I will be going with Dr. Vanos.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

You only need impact wrench if installing the anti-rattle kit.

Delivered from SIGFest USA

[acontzhp]

The besian systems vanos repair isn't that hard. Just take your time and follow the instructions on their Site. It looks a little intimidating at first but read and then reread the institutions again. Once you've started the process you'll quickly realize that it's not difficult at all and just time consuming. Just make sure you have the tools ready to go and you'll be fine.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

[328ioc]

You only need impact wrench if installing the anti-rattle kit.

Delivered from SIGFest USA

Yeah. I plan on doing the rattle kit.

Mine is making quite the amount of noise.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[UdubBadger]

^ same (i need both seals and rattle) which is why I'm thinking Dr. Vanos. Time is also not something I have an abundance of these days. How hard is it to swap out the entire unit with Dr. Vanos?

[danewilson77]

^ same (i need both seals and rattle) which is why I'm thinking Dr. Vanos. Time is also not something I have an abundance of these days. How hard is it to swap out the entire unit with Dr. Vanos?

I could ship around the impact wrench and socket after the meet. If you guys can get your hands on a compressor.

Delivered from SIGFest USA

[UdubBadger]

probably not

[acontzhp]

^ same (i need both seals and rattle) which is why I'm thinking Dr. Vanos. Time is also not something I have an abundance of these days. How hard is it to swap out the entire unit with Dr. Vanos?

I did my anti rattle without an impact wrench. I just used a socket wrench and mimicked impact wrench force by doing quick fast pulls over and over. It's kind of hard to explain lol. But I managed to do it without it

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

[danewilson77]

It could be done that way. I would imagine a sharp rap on the handle of the wrench would work....not that I'm into hitting my tools.

[terraphantm]

The cheap $40 impact wrenches from Harbor Freight are enough to do the rattle kit. I personally used Beisan's kit on my ZHP (Dr. VANOS was a lot more expensive back then, and Rajaie let me be a tester for the rattle kit). I see no reason not to go with the Beisan systems kit. IMO the hardest part of the whole repair is getting to the VANOS... which you have to do no matter what. Changing the seals and the bearing is trivial at that point.

[kayger12]

^ I disagree with both the trivial statement and the no reason to go with Dr. Vanos statement.

Opinions clearly vary on this, though, hence the two different available options and customers who are happy with both.

Reasons to go with Dr. Vanos, imo:

Faster to do the job

Less work

Less tools

Less risk of damage

More convenient
_________

At this point in my life, I'd rather just save the time screwing around with pulling the pistons apart, checking axial play, and removing and replacing seals and o-rings- and instead just pull one unit off and slap the other one on.

I've used Beisan before. I'll be doing the Beisan thing again on the ZHP in a few weeks. But I wish I went Dr. Vanos this time around.


I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[JohnnyGraphic]

While I personally did the Beisan seals myself (did not do the rattle as I don't have the rattle), I voted for the Dr. Vanos route. Only for the fact that the OP has limited time, tools and resources available to do the complete job himself. With the proper tools, time and/or help, I would have voted for the Beisan system.

You DO need the deep socket to remove the Vanos unit if I remember correctly. You also need a torque wrench capable of in/lbs as well as a few other miscellaneous tools beyond the normal shade-tree mechanic (at least for me). Nothing mind-numbingly expensive, but it adds up to either a lot of trips to the store or a well-equipped buddy. Once that part has been taken care of, then the rest is relatively easy. Just takes time and (for me) patience and organization. I also took extra time to clean everything I could get at to make sure I could see if there were any new leaks etc as a result of my wrenching.

With either case you choose, make sure you post back here with your results!

Johnny

[llll1l1ll]

I have similar skill sets as the OP and I would have probably done it Dr. Vanos style.

[danewilson77]

I had zero skills and did it.

I think the bottom line is time, and sense of adventure. If you need to just get it done, and aren't really all that concerned about becoming intimately familiar with the car, then Dr. VANOS is the way to go) as others have said)

For me.... I had the time (an entire day), a backup ride (should it last longer-no stress to get it done asap), and the genuine need/want to learn.

With that said.... You will actually learn quite a bit about your car doing Dr. VANOS.

Dr. VANOS, I equate to... Changing out your alternator (component replacement)

Beisan, I equate to pulling that same alternator but rebuilding it and re-installing (component repair and re-install).

Sent from SIGFest USA

[kayger12]

I had zero skills and did it.

I think the bottom line is time, and sense of adventure. If you need to just get it done, and aren't really all that concerned about becoming intimately familiar with the car, then Dr. VANOS is the way to go) as others have said)

For me.... I had the time (an entire day), a backup ride (should it last longer-no stress to get it done asap), and the genuine need/want to learn.

With that said.... You will actually learn quite a bit about your car doing Dr. VANOS.

Dr. VANOS, I equate to... Changing out your alternator (component replacement)

Beisan, I equate to pulling that same alternator but rebuilding it and re-installing (component repair and re-install).

Sent from SIGFest USA

+1

[UdubBadger]

If you need to just get it done, and aren't really all that concerned about becoming intimately familiar with the car, then Dr. VANOS is the way to go) as others have said)

For me.... I had the time (an entire day), a backup ride (should it last longer-no stress to get it done asap), and the genuine need/want to learn.


This is my 1st line of concern, I have none of this other than the slight curiosity of whats going on down there... I just know missing time, a backup plan (car), tools and knowledge/mechanical skills will cause something to go wrong and am not equipped for that.

Dr. Vanos it is.

[danewilson77]

This is my 1st line of concern, I have none of this other than the slight curiosity of whats going on down there... I just know missing time, a backup plan (car), tools and knowledge/mechanical skills will cause something to go wrong and am not equipped for that.

Dr. Vanos it is.

Sounds good Seth. Let us know if you run into a snag, when going the DV method.

[terraphantm]

^ I disagree with both the trivial statement and the no reason to go with Dr. Vanos statement.

Opinions clearly vary on this, though, hence the two different available options and customers who are happy with both.

Reasons to go with Dr. Vanos, imo:

Faster to do the job

Less work

Less tools

Less risk of damage

More convenient
_________

At this point in my life, I'd rather just save the time screwing around with pulling the pistons apart, checking axial play, and removing and replacing seals and o-rings- and instead just pull one unit off and slap the other one on.

I've used Beisan before. I'll be doing the Beisan thing again on the ZHP in a few weeks. But I wish I went Dr. Vanos this time around.


I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

I dunno, when I did it, it took a lot longer to get to the point of taking the VANOS off than it did to disassemble the VANOS unit and change the seals and bearings. It was actually the first "hard" job I ever did on a car beyond oil changes.

If you don't feel like checking the axial play, you don't have to - the rattle will be reduced by several orders of magnitude either way. There is no way Dr. Vanos checks the axial play, because that particular aspect would be unique to each individual car. I personally did it because I figured I may as well get it perfect. However we didn't bother on Nike001's car, and his rattle is still eliminated.

Also if you read around, some people with Dr. Vanos still have the rattle - just reduced. I've yet to hear of anyone report an audible rattle with Beisan's kit.

[kayger12]

^That's interesting. The axial play is how you're supposed to determine if the spacers are the proper thickness, right?

I was going to do that so I didn't risk putting it all back together and still having the rattle. Great observation, though, on how it would be impossible for DV to check that anyway.

If some DV cars still have the rattle, that would be a BIG reason to go with Beisan.

I never knew that.

Great info in this thread.

While we're on the subject, I'd also like to give a quick shout out to Beisan's customer service:

I had purchased a set of seals for my 325 and did that job a few years ago.

I then bought a set of the Beisan spacers from Kpro when she sold them because she didn't need them.

A few months ago, I ordered another set of seals (this time for the ZHP).

A couple of hours after placing my order, I got an email from Beisan asking to verify my order as they saw that I had already purchased seals a few years ago, and wondering if I actually was looking for the spacers and had ordered the wrong thing.

I appreciate that kind of proactive customer service and thought it was worth mentioning.

[328ioc]

This is my 1st line of concern, I have none of this other than the slight curiosity of whats going on down there... I just know missing time, a backup plan (car), tools and knowledge/mechanical skills will cause something to go wrong and am not equipped for that.

Dr. Vanos it is.

That is basically my issue to. Its a combination of time, tools and back up car.

Dr. V looks like what I will be using this time around.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Sockethead]

I did Dr. Vanos on my car and Besian on Kpro's car at the meet last year. Both were easy enough for me but I like the Dr Vanos because I'd rather just get it done. i don't have any rattle but my ZHP never had the rattle to bengin with.

Oh... and who can forget Kpro's method on the left for removing excess oil LOL

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/r_powell123/ZHP%20mafia/DSC_0269.jpg

[johnrando]

The more I read the more I am now leaning toward Dr. Vanos. But, I've never had the rattle (I do have the issue at low rpm, hence, wanting to do this). But given that new information that you could still have the rattle with Dr. Vanos, would it be safer to do a Besian for mine? (I don't have the tools, etc., which was why I am now leaning toward D.V.). I still don't get the rattle/replacement thing totally.

[328ioc]

The more I read the more I am now leaning toward Dr. Vanos. But, I've never had the rattle (I do have the issue at low rpm, hence, wanting to do this). But given that new information that you could still have the rattle with Dr. Vanos, would it be safer to do a Besian for mine? (I don't have the tools, etc., which was why I am now leaning toward D.V.). I still don't get the rattle/replacement thing totally.

If I read the Dr. V website correctly they also do the anti rattle kit.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[johnrando]

That's what I thought, but Terra said "Also if you read around, some people with Dr. Vanos still have the rattle - just reduced. I've yet to hear of anyone report an audible rattle with Beisan's kit. "

[UdubBadger]

my rattle is existent but not bad by any means... i just want max performance for timmayfest and i know Eli said the vanos needs to be done soon so I'm doing this preventatively.

[kayger12]

Here's my understanding of the rattle issue with respect to Beisan vs DV:

With Beisan, you have the ability to mount the vanos piston to the intake/exhaust shaft and check for axial play.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/double_vanos_rattle_procedure_files/image008.jpg
This will allow you to ensure that the spacers are the proper thickness, hence ensuring that you will not have a rattle.

Because you cannot mount the piston separately to check this with the DV unit, there is a chance that the spacer in the DV unit will not be the exact proper thickness when mounted to your motor, hence allowing a small amount of axial play which will result in a rattle.

With the Beisan kit, you have the ability of sanding either the spacer or one of the piston washers to allow for perfect fit for your vehicle.

[Sockethead]

Yep Keith you nailed it...

[terraphantm]

Here's my understanding of the rattle issue with respect to Beisan vs DV:

With Beisan, you have the ability to mount the vanos piston to the intake/exhaust shaft and check for axial play.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/double_vanos_rattle_procedure_files/image008.jpg
This will allow you to ensure that the spacers are the proper thickness, hence ensuring that you will not have a rattle.

Because you cannot mount the piston separately to check this with the DV unit, there is a chance that the spacer in the DV unit will not be the exact proper thickness when mounted to your motor, hence allowing a small amount of axial play which will result in a rattle.

With the Beisan kit, you have the ability of sanding either the spacer or one of the piston washers to allow for perfect fit for your vehicle.

Exactly. Most cars will have no rattle, but there are a few that will still have it. Beisan's kit will let you get that perfect. Though in either case, the rattle should be reduced significantly - the new spacers are significantly thinner than stock (though I've never actually seen Dr. Vanos' spacers next to Beisan's)

[WOLFN8TR]

When I did my Vanos rebuild I didn't have any rattle at all. Installed the anti rattle kit anyway. Still NO rattle. My seals were hard as rocks! Car runs so much better now.

[terraphantm]

When I did my Vanos rebuild I didn't have any rattle at all. Installed the anti rattle kit anyway. Still NO rattle. My seals were hard as rocks! Car runs so much better now.

How many miles did you have out of curiosity? My ZHP didn't have a rattle when I bought it @ 64k miles, but when I hit 75k, the rattle was so loud that you could hear it from another car a few car lengths ahead.

[WOLFN8TR]

Approx 102,000 and nothing.

[LivesNearCostco]

My ZHP did not seem to exhibit any VANOS rattle even at ~150,000 miles when I replaced the VANOS seals. Now at 163,000 miles and still no rattle. But now that I've jinxed it, I'll probably get a rattle next week!

Das Boots: If you're out there reading this thread, next week Tuesday-Thursday might be a good time for me to help you replace your VANOS seals. My work and meeting schedule for next week looks pretty light.

[zj96sc]

Even taking the rattle totally out of the equation, my motor runs substantially better with the new seals and the exhaust note really woke up - one of those i didn't know what i was missing fixes

[Jesse M]

I used beisan systems, worked perfectly and took about 2hrs.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

[danewilson77]

Damn. 2 hours. Pretty aggressive.

Sent from SIGFest USA

[UdubBadger]

uhhhh, ok well I'll pay you the difference to come do it for me in 2 hrs :)

[Jesse M]

uhhhh, ok well I'll pay you the difference to come do it for me in 2 hrs :)

Take a trip down to RI and I'd be more than happy to help a fellow member out.

[ryankokesh]

Well crap... mine just started rattling quite a bit.

[UdubBadger]

:rofl

[toddness]

OK - So I have my riot gear on in case you all start throwing things at me, but....

I have been to three truly reputable shops here in the San Francisco Bay Area. With each of them I brought up the Vanos, and they all commented rather emphatically that the Vanos is not a concern for the ZHP - rattle, seals, or otherwise.

What am I missing here? How many of you actually suffer (ed) the rattle or seal issues? Anything more significant?

:ducking

[kayger12]

Quite frankly, they have no idea what they're talking about if they said that.

[Token]

Quite frankly, they have no idea what they're talking about if they said that.

+1

Vanos in ZHP's are especially a concern due to our higher lift performance cams. I had a similar experience though. the dealer seemed surprised there was a problem with my vanos, and the service manager had no knowledge of the deteriorating seals issue. he said it wasn't a common problem.

[ryankokesh]

:rofl

not cool, dude. not cool at all...

[toddness]

Respectfully, I have a hard time believing these guys don't know what they are talking about.

Why is there such a disconnect. None of these guys I am talking to are dealers (not surprised dealers wouldn't t recognize an issue). Though these are independent shops, and really good one's at that. If I hadn't hit the only three shops I'd consider taking my cars in the Bay Area and received the same answer, I'd probably be putting a kit in right now.

Guess I am going to have to have a deeper conversation with them. What was interesting is they all acknowledged the Vanos issues in the e36, and they all said it wasn't a problem with the e46 or ZHP more specifically.

Perhaps extreme weather (thinking North/NorthEast cold/heat) plays a role and we don't experience it in our moderate climate here near San Francisco?

[kayger12]

^Simple, non-biased statement on my part based on the following:

The fact that the double vanos in all M54 motors were manufactured with a buna o-ring that fails is well documented and not denied anywhere that I can find.

The fact that the ZHP specifically is very prone to the vanos rattle because of the hotter cams is also well established and not denied by anyone that i can find.

These shops may be very good at working on BMWs, but if they say that the vanos isn't a problem for the E46 and ESPECIALLY the ZHP, then-- with respect to this matter-- they seem to me to not know what they're talking about.

I've had a 325 that stalled with the AC on because the vanos seals had gotten so bad. New seals= the feel of a new motor.

I also have a beautiful ZHP in my garage that sounds like a diesel when it gets warmed up because the rattle is so bad.

Once I do the rattle kit from Beisan next week, I am highly confident it will be gone.

These cars have major vanos issues, imo.

[ryankokesh]

Yeah, that's weird... the crazy-a$$ sound coming from my car says they're wrong though :)

I think the climate theory may be a good one... any californians have this issue?

[ryankokesh]

Once I do the rattle kit from Beisan next week, I am highly confident it will be gone.

Haha, if I get my kit in time we could be vanos buddies :)

[kayger12]

Wish you were closer. We could have a vanos garage day.

[ryankokesh]

Yeah, NJ is kind of far... :(

Am I needing to order two of the besian rattle kits? It kind of seems to imply in the instructions that you'd need two, but then it doesn't make sense that they'd call it a "kit" if you need two. And they show two rings in the kit picture...

[kayger12]

Yeah, NJ is kind of far... :(

Am I needing to order two of the besian rattle kits? It kind of seems to imply in the instructions that you'd need two, but then it doesn't make sense that they'd call it a "kit" if you need two. And they show two rings in the kit picture...

Nah, one anti-rattle kit comes with two anti-rattle bearing spacers.

Same thing with the vanos seals. One kit has seals and teflon rings for both vanos pistons.



I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[Token]

my car has been in the bay area its whole life and has the rattle so i would say Californians are not immune.

maybe those shops just haven't dealt with very many ZHP vanos repairs. ZHPs aren't very common to begin with, and i'd bet many owners don't recognize the rattle. Those who are enthusiasts, read forums, and are listening for the rattle are also more likely to be the type to do the repair themselves.

I would think the number of ZHP's in the bay area that have rattles loud enough to concern a non-enthusiast owner is very small. just my .02

[toddness]

I would think the number of ZHP's in the bay area that have rattles loud enough to concern a non-enthusiast owner is very small. just my .02

So how do I say this now without sounding totally offensive. Again, with all due respect...

While the SF Bay Area is not BMW Mecca, it must have close to the highest per capita population of BMW's. Enthusiasts abound. I can't imagine ZHP's being any exception to the rule.

Now that the weather is ruled out, this point suggests we are now pointing at the owners? Is this really an enthusiasts perception problem (the rattle) moreso than a mechanical issue that can cause catastrophic issues?


I couldn't find a 'opened can o worms emoticon'...

:conversation

[johnrando]

I took my car to an Indy in SoCal to talk about the VANOS issue quite awhile ago. He'd "heard of it" but didn't really have a lot of details, so I pointed him to the Besian site. He was impressed with the amount of knowledge and detail on that site. This Indy is located in another "mecca" of BMWs and all his shop does is BMWs and Porsches here in SoCal, so your guys could be like him. Trust us, VANOS is an issue. Read the besian web site. Ask Charlie, who just did his this weekend. And, oh, BTW, after seeing it done live, I'm definitely going to DIY with the besian, I just need an assistant.

This site is for asking questions and learning as much as anything else we use it for, so no harm in asking the questions. EDIT: BTW, I don't have the rattle, but I do have the low power at low RPM, which doing the seals fixes. There are some youtube videos of the rattle.

[kayger12]

So how do I say this now without sounding totally offensive. Again, with all due respect...

While the SF Bay Area is not BMW Mecca, it must have close to the highest per capita population of BMW's. Enthusiasts abound. I can't imagine ZHP's being any exception to the rule.

Now that the weather is ruled out, this point suggests we are now pointing at the owners? Is this really an enthusiasts perception problem (the rattle) moreso than a mechanical issue that can cause catastrophic issues?


I couldn't find a 'opened can o worms emoticon'...

:conversation

No worries, bud. Nothing offensive in this discussion.

All I can do is speak from experience. My 325 had zero low end torque and would actually stall when starting from a stop sign or red light with the AC on. That isn't a perception issue- that's as mechanical as it gets.

Putting the beisan seals in fixed the car immediately. I recovered so much low end torque that I felt like I was driving a different car.

Virtually everyone I know who has done the beisan kit (including Charlie who just did it this weekend) typically feels a significant difference.

Every E46 with an M54 has this issue. Ask Charlie what the buna o-rings looked like when he got them off of his vanos pistons- hard as a rock.

The rattle issue is different. It does not present a mechanical risk nor effect performance in any way- it's just damn annoying.

And just as with the seals, the rattle is clearly audible- it's not a perception thing.

Even the BMW dealer that I brought mine to under CPO last year admitted that the rattle was there, admitted it was the vanos, installed a new vanos under CPO warranty, and advised me that it was likely to return. The service adviser knew all about the rattle issue with the ZHP.

This has nothing to do with enthusiasts or geographic areas, imo.

I would once again respectfully submit that your indies are simply not familiar with the issue.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[cakM3]

No worries, bud. Nothing offensive in this discussion.

All I can do is speak from experience. My 325 had zero low end torque and would actually stall when starting from a stop sign or red light with the AC on. That isn't a perception issue- that's as mechanical as it gets.

Putting the beisan seals in fixed the car immediately. I recovered so much low end torque that I felt like I was driving a different car.

When I first drove my ZHP after replacing my VANOS seals I immediately noticed more low end torque. The car felt great before but now.....man is it so much more fun to drive :biggrin


Virtually everyone I know who has done the beisan kit (including Charlie who just did it this weekend) typically feels a significant difference.

Every E46 with an M54 has this issue. Ask Charlie what the buna o-rings looked like when he got them off of his vanos pistons- hard as a rock.

Keith is correct. When I took out my old seals the buna o-rings were just as hard as the teflon seals above them. After taking out the teflon seals, I thought what was underneith them was oil residue. The o-rings were hard as a rock.


The rattle issue is different. It does not present a mechanical risk nor effect performance in any way- it's just damn annoying.

And just as with the seals, the rattle is clearly audible- it's not a perception thing.

Even the BMW dealer that I brought mine to under CPO last year admitted that the rattle was there, admitted it was the vanos, installed a new vanos under CPO warranty, and advised me that it was likely to return. The service adviser knew all about the rattle issue with the ZHP.

This has nothing to do with enthusiasts or geographic areas, imo.

I would once again respectfully submit that your indies are simply not familiar with the issue.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

Even though my VANOS did not have the rattle issue, I installed the anti-rattle kit while I was there. I have never attempted replacing my seals or install the anti-rattle kit for that matter. I would never have attempted doing this by myself. Too afraid I would break something. With help from fellow members at Dane's house this past weekend, not only did I get the seals and anti-rattle kit installed but I did it myself! It was awesome the support that I got while doing this and even John commented on how easy this seemed. As long as you have all the right tools (cannot stress this enough), this job is easy to do. And that's speaking from someone who rarely does any serious mechanical work...:biggrin

After driving back from Williamsburg, VA to Providence, RI the VANOS seals have had their break in period. The car drives like a dream now. So much more low-end torque now when I drive her. All I can say is that if you follow the directions you can't go wrong. :thumbsup

[WOLFN8TR]

^Simple, non-biased statement on my part based on the following:

The fact that the double vanos in all M54 motors were manufactured with a buna o-ring that fails is well documented and not denied anywhere that I can find.

The fact that the ZHP specifically is very prone to the vanos rattle because of the hotter cams is also well established and not denied by anyone that i can find.

These shops may be very good at working on BMWs, but if they say that the vanos isn't a problem for the E46 and ESPECIALLY the ZHP, then-- with respect to this matter-- they seem to me to not know what they're talking about.

I've had a 325 that stalled with the AC on because the vanos seals had gotten so bad. New seals= the feel of a new motor.

I also have a beautiful ZHP in my garage that sounds like a diesel when it gets warmed up because the rattle is so bad.

Once I do the rattle kit from Beisan next week, I am highly confident it will be gone.

These cars have major vanos issues, imo.

Nicely Stated.

My Vanos seals were hards as rocks.

[johnrando]

Great to hear they worked out Charlie. I was hoping by the time you got home you got the full effect.

[HokieZHP]

So basically the general consensus on this is that if you're doing it yourself, get the beisan kit? I'll be doing mine with Dane and Justin this summer at some point and will most likely order the parts soon.

[danewilson77]

So basically the general consensus on this is that if you're doing it yourself, get the beisan kit?

No.....if you're doing it yourself......get either.

If you have time to do the entire rebuild (Saves about $100).....get the Beisan System.

[HokieZHP]

No.....if you're doing it yourself......get either.

If you have time to do the entire rebuild (Saves about $100).....get the Beisan System.

Gotcha. Also, would it be a good idea to get the rattle kit also? I'm not sure if mine is rattling or not.

[johnrando]

Gotcha. Also, would it be a good idea to get the rattle kit also? I'm not sure if mine is rattling or not.

That's the million dollar question. If you are doing Beisan, and you don't have the rattle, you don't "need" it. But, since you are already in there, it just kinda makes sense for preventative maint. The feeling is, you do all that work and don't do it, if the rattle develops, you'll kick yourself. So, it depends on if you want to take that risk not doing it.

[HokieZHP]

That's the million dollar question. If you are doing Beisan, and you don't have the rattle, you don't "need" it. But, since you are already in there, it just kinda makes sense for preventative maint. The feeling is, you do all that work and don't do it, if the rattle develops, you'll kick yourself. So, it depends on if you want to take that risk not doing it.

My thoughts exactly, guess I'll be doing that as well. Thanks guys!

[johnrando]

Yeppers, I came to that same conclusion.

[LivesNearCostco]

Rajaie also says failed VANOS seals can cause cold weather starting problems, I think it was an idle hunt as the DME tries to use the VANOS to heat up the cats faster. Maybe we're exempt from that in California, or maybe the newer DMEs don't try to do that. I never had a code or idle problems with my old (and plasticized) VANOS seals. With the new seals I got more low-end torque--not a big increase but noticeably better.

[cakM3]

That's the million dollar question. If you are doing Beisan, and you don't have the rattle, you don't "need" it. But, since you are already in there, it just kinda makes sense for preventative maint. The feeling is, you do all that work and don't do it, if the rattle develops, you'll kick yourself. So, it depends on if you want to take that risk not doing it.

Chris, This is what I did at Dane's on Sunday. John was there and watched me do the whole procedure.....well sort of. I had lots of help from Keith, Kyle
(Ryan's), Dane, and Jeff when I had my entire VANOS unit torn apart and had plenty of advisement. Man I was excited and scared at the same time!!! I didn't have the VANOS rattle problem but since I was already there, it only made sense to do this as a preventive maintenance measure. It's well worth doing everything when you can :thumbsup

One thing to add is that John was a really big help during this whole rebuild....it is always better to have someone there to give you that 'extra' hand when you need it. Having John there working with me made things so much easier and having good company only made things more fun and exciting :thumbsup :)

[danewilson77]

Yup....extra set of eyes is alwayd good.

[UdubBadger]

I'm just gonna trade in my car for a 1M

[ryankokesh]

That'd be a quick turn around...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ryankokesh]

4257

Knee-deep in vanos!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danewilson77]

4257

Knee-deep in vanos!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sweet!

Sent from a Thunderbolt

[webster]

Yeah, that's weird... the crazy-a$$ sound coming from my car says they're wrong though :)

I think the climate theory may be a good one... any californians have this issue?

re: the climate theroy. i'm in houston and my car has been a texas car its whole life, and my Vanos unit rattles like hell.

[ryankokesh]

Vanos done; car runs like a top! Completely different feel. Took about 10 hours, but I took tons of breaks :shifty


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[toddness]

I meant to say something earlier. I want to thank everybody for the enlightening conversation on the Vanos issues.

This is what I took away from it, I'd like to summarize it simply. You all are free to beat me up a little more...

As I hear it, the seals go bad and performance drops (and goodness knows what else if left for too long). The rattle seems to be more of an annoyance, though if you are in fixing the seals, one might as well get rid of the annoyance.

Now I am curious - and ready to open yet another can of worms.

How long do the Besian and Dr. Vanos seals last?

[UdubBadger]

10 hours!?!?

dude

I don't want you doing my seals now. Dr. Vanos is getting ordered first thing Tuesday.

[ryankokesh]

Well, that included a few trips to the store, a tv break, and grilling ribs... Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Token]

Vanos done; car runs like a top! Completely different feel. Took about 10 hours, but I took tons of breaks :shifty


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

nice! you should reset your average MPG's and see if there is a noticeable difference. mine improved significantly after new seals

[ryankokesh]

nice! you should reset your average MPG's and see if there is a noticeable difference. mine improved significantly after new seals

Why that a great idea, I shall do that! I also actually track my mileage with Fuelly, so if I see any changes I'll share my graphs!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WOLFN8TR]

nice! you should reset your average MPG's and see if there is a noticeable difference. mine improved significantly after new seals

I did this afterward, the average mpg went up 2.0 more then tapered back down to .2 above what it was before the repair. The average mpg readout on the "DIC" are usually not very accurate. They are off in all my cars by 1 to 2 miles. You need to hand calculate for accurate readings.

[UdubBadger]

Well, that included a few trips to the store, a tv break, and grilling ribs... Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so what was your estimated "communist rules no bathroom breaks $.08 a day work" time?

[ryankokesh]

If I had all the right tools it could have been under four hours if I hauled ass.

Beer slows things down though...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

I'll just dangle a Guinness in front of your nose to keep you working diligently

[Hornung418]

I had the same issues when doing mine. I took the valve cover off the night before and just broke the steps into sections where I could eat lunch and take breaks and run to the store to get parts that I didn't have :facepalm

total of 15 hours from hood opening to hood closing (Minus the 8 hours of sleep ;))

[UdubBadger]

i would assume Dr. Vanos is done in 1/2 the time?

[danewilson77]

i would assume Dr. Vanos is done in 1/2 the time?

Maybe saves 1 to 1.5 hours...ish.

Sent from a Thunderbolt

[ryankokesh]

I'd concur. Probably 1.5 hours max.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

well 1.5-2 hrs on a what, 6-8 hr job normally? maybe its not worth the extra $200

[kayger12]

well 1.5-2 hrs on a what, 6-8 hr job normally? maybe its not worth the extra $200

More like 1-1.5 hours off of a 4-4.5 hour job.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[UdubBadger]

well thats not terrible.

4-5 hrs normal time = 6-8hrs Kokesh time

[danewilson77]

well 1.5-2 hrs on a what, 6-8 hr job normally? maybe its not worth the extra $200

No....about a 4 hour job.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[UdubBadger]

k thats not bad, trying to get this done before timmayfest

[ryankokesh]

well thats not terrible.

4-5 hrs normal time = 6-8hrs Kokesh time

Can't argue with that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WOLFN8TR]

I took my time on this one. Wanted to make sure it was done right. Probably took 5 hours or so. Did the plugs, VCG and cleaned up some areas also.

[SoCalZman]

Question on symptoms. I was on a road trip this weekend and it was uneventful except: I had the windows down and was in first or second gear decelerating/coasting down a hill. I heard a slight rattle :( it went away when I started accelerating again. I thought maybe loose heat shield for half a second then...Is that consistent with the beginnings of VANOS rattle?

Car ran totally smooth otherwise.

[UdubBadger]

I get the same thing.

[kayger12]

Pop the hood, stand by the front of the motor, and have someone hold the RPMs at approx 2400.

If you hear a drum roll at the front of the valve cover-- you've got it.

[ryankokesh]

nice! you should reset your average MPG's and see if there is a noticeable difference. mine improved significantly after new seals

Getting right around 35mpg (averaged - as in reset while driving on the highway) cruising at 63mph. Previous benchmark was around 33!

[WOLFN8TR]

Getting right around 35mpg (averaged - as in reset while driving on the highway) cruising at 63mph. Previous benchmark was around 33!

How are you getting 35 mpg? Even after the Vanos repair I'm still getting 23!
Hmmm...

[ryankokesh]

To get 35 I reset the avg while driving down the highway with the cruise set in the low 60's. It didn't account for any city driving at all, just a highway sampling. Do you still get 23 doing that?

[WOLFN8TR]

Ok that makes sense. If I reset it the average mpg does peak at approx 30 but settles back down to 23 mpg. This takes about 1 tank.

[webster]

How are you getting 35 mpg? Even after the Vanos repair I'm still getting 23!
Hmmm...

i think transmission type plays a large factor in MPG as well.

[WOLFN8TR]

Webster your ZHP always looks so dam clean! Love that color also....

[UdubBadger]

just ordered my Dr. Vanos kit

[kayger12]

just ordered my Dr. Vanos kit

Nice.

Saturday is going to be vanos day for me.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[UdubBadger]

I wish saturday was vanos day for me. I have had the crappiest schedule ever

[webster]

Webster your ZHP always looks so dam clean! Love that color also....

thanks, same to you!

[UdubBadger]

So my guy (mechanic) is debating on doing this because he said the solenoid on e46s is difficult? Wtf does that mean?

I just don't have time to do it myself right now.

- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[WOLFN8TR]

So my guy (mechanic) is debating on doing this because he said the solenoid on e46s is difficult? Wtf does that mean?

I just don't have time to do it myself right now.


That makes NO sense at all. Sounds like he has no clue what the VANOS is. It not hard to do (if you know what it is) just time consuming.

[danewilson77]

That makes NO sense at all. Sounds like he has no clue what the VANOS is. It not hard to do (if you know what it is) just time consuming.

+1

Don't give him your car.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[Sockethead]

^ +2

[UdubBadger]

he thought i had a totally new unit... miscommunication.

some dumb ass BMW tech was with him telling him shit like how hard it was. Then offered me his off the clock services for $85 an hour.

SMD

[nike001]

he thought i had a totally new unit... miscommunication.

some dumb ass BMW tech was with him telling him shit like how hard it was. Then offered me his off the clock services for $85 an hour.

SMD

Haha he's still taking you to the cleaners! I'm not sure how their pay is set up, but I wouldn't doubt that he'd actually be making more money doing it for $85/hr since some doesn't have to go to the stealer.

[UdubBadger]

yup

and my rate at this shop is only $65/hr for mechanical, $65/hr paint and $35/hr for misc stuff so he's trying to run up the price by making my guy think he can't handle the job.

[Sockethead]

Replacing the VANOS using the Dr. Vanos unit was one of the easiest things I've done on my car. It's just time consuming. That BMW Tech is FOS

[ryankokesh]

I know you probably can't wait, but I'd do it for some beer. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UdubBadger]

ry i'll take you up on it... didn't get it done before i left so its still on my garage table at home.

[kayger12]

So my guy (mechanic) is debating on doing this because he said the solenoid on e46s is difficult? Wtf does that mean?

I just don't have time to do it myself right now.

- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

If I had to guess- I'd say that when BMW replaces a vanos they only replace the core of the vanos while they re-use the intake and exhaust vanos solenoids.

That's a non-issue with Dr Vanos as others have pointed out.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

[328ioc]

If I had to guess- I'd say that when BMW replaces a vanos they only replace the core of the vanos while they re-use the intake and exhaust vanos solenoids.

That's a non-issue with Dr Vanos as others have pointed out.

I wish this was sent with a Galaxy S3

I also believe that on top of this BMW also doesn't like to mention it to their techs at all. I mentioned my rattle to the tech I use some times and he had never heard of it before. He knew of other Vanos issues but has never heard of the rattle.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[kayger12]

^I got lucky. My SA was a big E46/ZHP enthusiast and knew all about it.

[328ioc]

Yeah this guy is usually pretty good. I was surprised.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[KevinC]

My car has been stumbling and generally running crappy from about 2800-4k RPM, some stumbling off the line, and feeling of a lack of torque down low. My heavy reading here at the Mafia over the last several weeks edu-macated me that the problem is either the DISA valve, VANOS issues, or some combination of both. So tonight I ordered the DISA Gold replacement from G.A.S., then a Dr Vanos unit. I'll squash the problem for sure, and should never had a problem with either ever again. Will post impressions once they're in place.

[danewilson77]

My car has been stumbling and generally running crappy from about 2800-4k RPM, some stumbling off the line, and feeling of a lack of torque down low. My heavy reading here at the Mafia over the last several weeks edu-macated me that the problem is either the DISA valve, VANOS issues, or some combination of both. So tonight I ordered the DISA Gold replacement from G.A.S., then a Dr Vanos unit. I'll squash the problem for sure, and should never had a problem with either ever again. Will post impressions once they're in place.

Excellent news Kevin.

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[Sockethead]

Both are relatively easy... have fun! :thumbsup

Don't forget a valve cover gasket if you haven't done that recently...

[Hornung418]

If it's from 2800rpm you may have an oxygen sensor issue. A DME update may fix that issue if it is unresolved after the repairs.

Sent from Branson, MO.

[UdubBadger]

Or a tune :D


- Goin' H.A.M. Mobile

[Vas]

91,000 miles roughly on my zhp and still the original Vanos. It started to make the typical Vanos noise so I decided to replace it before it gets worse.

I ended up ordering the Dr.Vanos unit even though I could have changed the seals myself. However it is winter weather and I have no garage.
Also I got the valve cover gasket and ngk spark plugs. Kinda looking forward to it.

[danewilson77]

So...you're going to install the vanos curb side in the winter time?

[Vas]

Pretty much that is the case. Shot I built an exhaust in the middle of winter outside before lol.

[danewilson77]

OK.....still gonna take you a few hours. Bundle up!

[BavarianZHP]

I'm planning on replacing the VCG, plugs, and vanos with anti-rattle kit (barely audible around 4k range but I can hear it) this weekend.

Is this all I'll need? I'm new to BMW's:
http://www.drvanos.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

Rebuilt Dual Vanos $250 after core refund
Valve cover gasket kit $34
valve cover seals $19
Gasket sealer (Victor Reinz) $15
M54 plugs (NGK): $58

Vanos Oil Line $55?????

I'm just referencing the Dr vanos webpage... Thanks for all of the help!

[Vas]

I got ngk plugs, valve cover gasket, valve cover seals and the dr.vanos rebuild.

[BavarianZHP]

I got ngk plugs, valve cover gasket, valve cover seals and the dr.vanos rebuild.

Thanks,

Here's my list of what to get:

1) Dr. Vanos Rebuild (http://www.drvanos.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3) ($250 after core refund)
2) VCG kit (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E39-E46-E53-E60-E61-E65-E66-E83-E85-VALVE-COVER-GASKET-SET-320i-525i-X5-Z4-/120941337046#vi-content) ($23 shipped)
3)Valve Cover Seals (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261083986617?hlp=false) ($15 shipped)
4) Gasket Sealer (http://compare.ebay.com/like/170952192036?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar) ($7 shipped)
5) NGK spark plugs x 6 (http://compare.ebay.com/like/261027233200?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar) ($42 shipped)

Are there better prices elsewhere? I would also like to prefer supporting this site if the budget allows.

[Lespaulman16]

The price on the VCG, VC doughnuts and permatex aren't anything to write home about. That's a good buy on the plugs though.

I've built a relationship with my local parts guys, and they will normally beat anything I can find online as far as VCG, OFHG and other maintanence related items. Before you order them, you might want to go in to O'Riley or Advance and see what they can do for you. The can get VR parts :)

[danewilson77]

I'm planning on replacing the VCG, plugs, and vanos with anti-rattle kit (barely audible around 4k range but I can hear it) this weekend.

Is this all I'll need? I'm new to BMW's:
http://www.drvanos.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

Rebuilt Dual Vanos $250 after core refund
Valve cover gasket kit $34
valve cover seals $19
Gasket sealer (Victor Reinz) $15
M54 plugs (NGK): $58

Vanos Oil Line $55?????

I'm just referencing the Dr vanos webpage... Thanks for all of the help!

Here's my writeup.

Bunch of good stuff here that will help you in the future as well.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?1830-BMW-E46-ZHP-DIY-and-Preventative-maintenance

12. VANOS software replacement due to BMW using incorrect material for seals on VANOS pistons. (BUNA-N vice Viton)

I would have 1qt of whatever oil you use, and permatex to go along with the below.

NOTE: The easily broken parts....have never been broken by me...after 7 vanos jobs.

I only get the RED items below when doing this job.

ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED
-Double vanos seals repair kit (6-cyl) (BS001) $60/each (www.beisansystems.com),
-Vanos gasket (11-36-1-433-817) 6.73/each
-2 x vanos oil hose/pipe washer (32-41-1-093-596) $.25/each

OPTIONAL PARTS
M52TU & M54:
Valve cover gasket replacement parts:
-Valve cover gasket set (< 09/02 11-12-9-070-990, >= 09/02 11-12-0-030-496) $34.26/each
-15 x valve cover bolt grommet (11-12-1-437-395) $1.73/each, oil fill neck gasket (11-12-7-526-447) 2.29/each

Easily breakable parts:
-2 x vanos piston bolt (11-36-1-748-745) $1.42/each,
-4 x engine cover bolt/nut cap (11-12-1-726-089) 3.27/each, (E39 2 x, E46 1 x)
-Fan shroud rivet (17-11-1-712-963) $.27/each, E39:
-Radiator overflow neck (17-11-0-419-132) $1.67/each
-Easily lost parts: 4 x engine cover pad (11-12-1-730-352) $1.98/each

M56:
Valve cover gasket replacement parts:
-Valve cover gasket set (11-12-7-521-009) $63.05/each & (11-12-7-521-010) $17.52/each,
-15 x valve cover bolt grommet (11-12-1-437-395) $1.73/each
Easily breakable parts: -2 x vanos piston bolt (11-36-1-748-745) $1.42/each,
-Fan shroud rivet (17-11-1-712-963) $.27/each

OPTIONAL AND/OR PERFORMED AS NEEDED:
The anti rattle kit install will require the kit from beisansystems, an impact wrench, socket, and soft jaw vice liners, that can be procured through the beisan site.




***HERE IS THE PROCEDURE***
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/vanos_procedure.htm