Time for new Suspension

[HokieZHP]

Hey guys so I made a thread about 4 months ago to get your thoughts on coils but since I have trashed that idea and instead I'm getting shocks and springs. I'm looking at either Bilstein or H&R for shocks and springs are either going to be Eibach or H&R. What are your thoughts? I plan on buying in the next month or whenever I decide which combo I want haha

I want a sporty ride and will most likely get race springs.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

How LOW can you go?

I mean how low do you want to go? I recently saw Das Boots' ZHP on Bilstein with H&R sport springs and felt the ride height looked perfect to me, just slightly lower than stock, but some might want MOAR LOWER.

[HokieZHP]

I want it low haha. Not low enough that I'll need to re-do my offset but low haha. I am rolling my fenders at sigfest this year btw. 1-2" is fine which is why I'm looking at race springs. Some pics of different combinations would be awesome to compare though!


Also which bilstein shocks do y'all get? The sports, hd's, tourings?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

PM'd you with my experience.

[HokieZHP]

Replied!

What do you all suggest for springs between eibach and h&r and shocks between bilstein and h&r?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ranger]

My ZHP has almost 118,000 miles on the original suspension. I am not interested in increased performance or lowering (ok will a little lower). What is a good source of replacement springs and shocks/struts - best bang for buck?

[nike001]

Can't go wrong with the H&R Sport Cup (H&R Sport Springs + Bilstein shocks)

I've heard better things about them than Eibach setups.. so that's why I got the H&R Sport Cup.

OP, If you want to go low.. I'd suggest getting the H&R/Bilstein shocks w/ Race Springs. johnrando found this thread before I could mention him in it for having those springs, so talking to him is a good thing to do. I'm here if you have any questions on the sport springs, too!

[bimmeryota]

I've had no less than 3 setups on my car with the last being the pss10. I wish I did that first. I was looking for the best of both worlds and the best way to do that IMO and the springs/shocks setup didn't do it for me. With that said, I didn't try the sport cup kit but was on my list. I really wanted the adjustability with being as low as I am and wanting comfort with the ability to stiffen for autocrosses...
I had the UUC sachs for longest and really liked it and was was very mild as far as a drop with a great ride. I still have it in a box but havent found a buyer yet...

[danewilson77]

............I still have it in a box but havent found a buyer yet...

Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge.....

[johnrando]

Yeah, I've PM'd Chris.

[HokieZHP]

Hey guys so still haven't decided on springs yet. I am wanting to lower the car but also get some better handling! Also I'd like the springs to work with bilstein sport shocks. I like the H&R race springs but have seen so many different pics of them it's hard to tell how much they actually lower the car. I was reading about linear vs. progressive springs on e46f earlier and the name Tein came up. Any thoughts on those? Or any other suggestions?

Coils are a definite no for me. I don't want to have to do an alignment every time I change the ride height, which is about twice year for me.

[derbo]

Chris,

I dont understand what you mean by change your ride height twice a year? Even without coilovers, changing ride height would have an effect on your alignment settings. However, it won't be as significant if you are raising the perches by a few inches since the top hat bolts are not loosen on a coilover setup.

In what order is the following most important? left being most important. Ride height, Ride Comfort, Ride Handling. Then, what is your ideal ride height? What kind of handling are we talking about and how comfortable do you want it?

There is no specific spring set that matches all the needs perfectly and rather a set of compromises for higher priority needs.

For instance, me:

I was concerned with handling, adjustability of height and then comfort came last. I went with ground control coilovers cause it has a good setup for handling as well as good adjustability for camber/ride height. Comfort came in last as its a huge compromise to get the other two for track use.


The H&R Race springs are great for the Bilstiens Sports and would fair great.



Tein is a japanase-based company. They have some relatively soft spring rates for the non-m. They will be comfortable and lower the car enough (at least to my standards). Your handle will probably be a little better but I wouldn't expect great track days with these springs. Paired with the Bilstiens, it would be a great daily driver spring/strut combo.

http://www.tein.com/tech_info/g72.html


I do suggest sway bars too if you are aimed for better handling. I actually has sway bars before lowering my car and loved it. It wasnt until the shocks started to leak in the rear, i decided to upgrade.

[HokieZHP]

I live where it snows so I would raise it for winter and lower it in the spring. If I got just springs and shocks, I would leave it as is all year. Plus I have many other things on my to-do list that I could use the extra money for like steering wheel re-wrap and re-spraying front end, etc.

For me it would be handling, ride height, comfort last. As far as ideal ride height, I'm not sure. I'd like the front wheels to be be either slightly tucked I think and rears to be slightly tucked. I'll try to find a pic for reference.

John sent me a picture of the h&r's on his vert and it looked good but then I've seen other pics of them on sedans and they look high or just like the stock ZHP stance. Here's a pic of John's that he sent me...

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq109/maxx919/DSC_0269.jpg


EDIT:

Maybe like this? Or close to it? I would like the front rim to look like it's barely touching the fender, or slightly above that if that makes sense. I also want the car to stay level and not be raked.

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq109/maxx919/6937106243_15acb48ba2_b.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derbo]

The convertible has more weight in the rear so you cannot use them as a reference. That second pic looks about right. Have you looked at Dalton's (Nike001's) H&R cup kit? The front looks a little taller than what you like but it seems to look very close to what you want from springs.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?6684-Finally-Some-Spring-Photos-(H-amp-R-Content)

[HokieZHP]

Yeah that's what I figured. I do like nike101's setup. I'd love it to be just barely lower but I guess I could remove the lower pads if I wanted.

How is the performance with the h&r's? I've heard the eibachs aren't stiff enough which is why I strayed away from them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

Dalton's aren't the race springs though, so yours would be slightly lower. I believe it's 1.1 front, .9 rear lowering with race off a SPORTS suspension are the #'s quoted. And absolutely I mentioned to Chris that Vert rears w/b lower than other cars.

Finally, as I've said before, in my research I always read glowing things about H&R so I rolled the dice and went for it. There are probably a few brands/setups that you can't go wrong with though...it's a tough decision.

[HokieZHP]

Dalton's aren't the race springs though, so yours would be slightly lower. I believe it's 1.1 front, .9 rear lowering with race off a SPORTS suspension are the #'s quoted. And absolutely I mentioned to Chris that Vert rears w/b lower than other cars.

Finally, as I've said before, in my research I always read glowing things about H&R so I rolled the dice and went for it. There are probably a few brands/setups that you can't go wrong with though...it's a tough decision.


I was reading through all the drop estimates but since our cars are already lowered a bit I don't know the actual drop. I am pretty sure I want the H&R race springs, I am just making sure there aren't any other options

[HokieZHP]

Also can you guys think of anything else I'll need? I plan to also buy:

-Front strut re-enforcement places
-RSM's- Are these really necessary?
-Do I need new sway linkages?
-Spacers?

[johnrando]

Also can you guys think of anything else I'll need? I plan to also buy:

-Front strut re-enforcement places
-RSM's- Are these really necessary?
-Do I need new sway linkages?
-Spacers?

I was told adjustable end links and RSMs are recommended. The front strut re-enforcement plates are not necessary for a DD no-tracking (but they are not expensive so you can do them). I'm going to get spacers for looks but those are certainly not necessary either. You have a good list to get though... I think you have everything covered.

[HokieZHP]

Any suggestions for some good adjustable end links that will work with future sway bar upgrades?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

I got mine from TMS w/o any research, so others may have better ideas.

[nike001]

Yeah that's what I figured. I do like nike101's setup. I'd love it to be just barely lower but I guess I could remove the lower pads if I wanted.

How is the performance with the h&r's? I've heard the eibachs aren't stiff enough which is why I strayed away from them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I knew I heard my name! I wish my suspension was a bit lower as well, but I can barely fit in my driveway as it is.. so anything lower will put me in a predicament. I'll also note that my suspension has settled in a bit since those pics were taken. (Those pics were taken only about a week after install, thus fresh)


Dalton's aren't the race springs though, so yours would be slightly lower. I believe it's 1.1 front, .9 rear lowering with race off a SPORTS suspension are the #'s quoted. And absolutely I mentioned to Chris that Vert rears w/b lower than other cars.

Finally, as I've said before, in my research I always read glowing things about H&R so I rolled the dice and went for it. There are probably a few brands/setups that you can't go wrong with though...it's a tough decision.

Yup, I never read anything bad about this set up. I only saw that this set up is a bit rougher than the FSD kit, but they both handle about the same.

Also can you guys think of anything else I'll need? I plan to also buy:

-Front strut re-enforcement places
-RSM's- Are these really necessary?
-Do I need new sway linkages?
-Spacers?

I got Front & Rear strut mounts
Front strut reinforcement kit
10mm Front & 12mm Rear spacers (though I would like my fronts to be a bit more flush; rears are perfect IMO)

[HokieZHP]

Thanks for the info! I may do spacers once I have my shocks and can see it in person. I'll do some research on end links but suggestions are welcome!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derbo]

Strut reinforcements plates are a good idea. They are cheap anyways! (under $30) I would suggest the RSM as well since it will make sure nothing gets messed up. Adjustable endlinks I do not believe are necessary when lowering but a good idea if you are going sway bars. I use stock front endlinks in the front with no problems. The rear I have UUC sway bars so they already came with endlinks.


I would suggest:

Strut Reinforcement Plates
RSM
Sway bars (so it comes with adjustable endlinks)



I also thought these specs are lower than the race..

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3640-e46-325-328-330ici-with-sport-package-hr-cup-kit.aspx


E46 325/328/330i/Ci (with Sport package) H&R Sport Cup Suspension Kit (more info)
Lowers 1.8" Front / 1.5" Rear
Extreme lowering with a nice ride

Thats lowering from the sports height since this is what the nonsport says

E46 323/325/328/330i/Ci (non-Sport package) H&R Sport Cup Suspension Kit (more info)
Lowers 2.1" Front / 1.7" Rear
Extreme lowering with a nice ride



spacers are unnecessary and alot easier to add afterwards since they only require removing the wheels. :)

[HokieZHP]

Does that kit use bilstein sport shocks?

They aren't adjustable are they?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nike001]

Yes

No

answered respectively :)

[HokieZHP]

Hmm interesting. I am just not sure if I want it that low. Does it use race springs? Cause I'm thinking if it's too low I can just then get race springs and swap them. Or is there a way to raise it 1/2 inch or so if I think it's too low?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nike001]

I thought I saw somewhere that the Turner kit uses the Race springs instead of the normal Sport ones. I didn't understand it in the thread where I saw it, so I don't know how to convey it here.

I think you should be alright with Race springs. You CAN always switch them out for Sport springs. I don't think that there's any way of just raising the car with the Race springs..

[HokieZHP]

So I'm confused then. Why is the h&r cup kit lower than just the bilstein sports and race springs? I'd the package different than if I bought them separately?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

The H&R sport cup kit should have the H&R race springs. So the ride height should be the same, unless the Bilstein spring perch is higher up than the H&R strut spring perch. But that would only affect front ride height.

If the cup kit dampers are low-pressure twin-tube and the Bilstein dampers are high pressure monotube, that might make ride height slightly higher with the Bilsteins. Suppose the cup kit dampers are pressurized to 15psi with 1.5 square inches of piston area while the Bilsteins are pressurized to 45 psi with 2 square inches of piston area, then the Bilsteins would exert an additional upward force of about 67 lbs [(45*2)-(15*1.5)] at each corner of the car. If each corner weighs 800 lbs and your spring rates are 350 lb/inch front and 450 lb/inch springs in back, the car with the Bilstein monotubes would ride about 0.2 inches higher in front and back.

This is all speculation of course--I have no idea what the gas pressures or piston surface areas are inside the Billie Sports or cup kit dampers.

[nike001]

The H&R Sport Cup Kit is H&R Sport Springs & Bilstein shocks. You'll be saving money as opposed to buying the bilstein shocks and H&R springs separately.

The Race springs will lower the car more than the Sport springs.

[johnrando]

Just so we're all on the same page, I spoke with H&R (Ryan) the other day on this... the Cup Kit Touring used Sport Springs. The Cup Kit Sport uses "specially made/matched" springs that you can't buy individually.

[HokieZHP]

Okay I think I'm just going to call H&R and see how these special springs compare to the race springs. Thanks for all the help guys!

[derbo]

Glad you found a suspension that will work with your needs!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

Ah that's interesting, I had no idea and thought the sport cup kit used the regular race springs. Are the dampers the same as the regular Bilstein Sport or are they some other Bilstein dampers?

[HokieZHP]

Ah that's interesting, I had no idea and thought the sport cup kit used the regular race springs. Are the dampers the same as the regular Bilstein Sport or are they some other Bilstein dampers?

We just found out that the sport cup kit does NOT use regular race springs. They use some special ones?

[derbo]

Not surprising that the package setup is a special one off. I would assume the dampening is catered to the special springs too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

We just found out that the sport cup kit does NOT use regular race springs. They use some special ones?

That's what H&R said, they are springs that come with the kit and aren't sold separately.

[johnrando]

Not surprising that the package setup is a special one off. I would assume the dampening is catered to the special springs too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Exactly.

[derbo]

I would personally get the h&r sport cup kit and get reinforcement plates for the front and RSM for the rear at minimal.

New sway bars + adjustable end links and maybe new top hats would be my choice so you could assemble them prior to removal to make the installation faster. :)



Keep in mind these setups have non adjustable height. What you get is what you have. Your idea of raising it for the winter only works with coil overs. That would mean things like Bilstien PSS10 or H&R coil overs would be your choice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HokieZHP]

I would personally get the h&r sport cup kit and get reinforcement plates for the front and RSM for the rear at minimal.

New sway bars + adjustable end links and maybe new top hats would be my choice so you could assemble them prior to removal to make the installation faster. :)



Keep in mind these setups have non adjustable height. What you get is what you have. Your idea of raising it for the winter only works with coil overs. That would mean things like Bilstien PSS10 or H&R coil overs would be your choice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes I am aware of that. I was more talking about if the kit comes and it is too low, I may switch springs so it will raise it up a little. I will get the reinforcement plates and RSM's with the shocks and will most likely do sways in the future.

[derbo]

Sounds great my good man! Good luck :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HokieZHP]

Thanks. So as for RSM's, any suggestions?

[derbo]

Ground Control, Rogue Engineering, TMS.

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=7/CA=259
http://www.rogueengineering.com/rogue/REIN/RSM_PLATE.html
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3666-rear-shock-mounts-rsm-hp-aluminumrubber-e30-e36-e46-z3-z4.aspx


Personally I would go with the full RSM not the RE since you would have a full mount so you do not have to dismount your old shock for used rubber top mounts. I like the way the GC aims the bolt downward for easier removal.

[HokieZHP]

Thanks for those!

I just got off the phone with H&R and they said the sport cup kit is not as stiff as the Race springs but does lower a little bit more. He also said that the Bilstein sports would be a good match for the race springs so I'm still trying to decide between those two setups. The sport cup kit will lower slightly more but the race/bilstein will handle better.

hmmm

[LivesNearCostco]

Looks vs. Performance, a common dilemma!

[nike001]

Thanks for those!

I just got off the phone with H&R and they said the sport cup kit is not as stiff as the Race springs but does lower a little bit more. He also said that the Bilstein sports would be a good match for the race springs so I'm still trying to decide between those two setups. The sport cup kit will lower slightly more but the race/bilstein will handle better.

hmmm

This doesnt make sense. The sport springs don't lower the car more.. this is known. I think you have it all backwards. I've heard that the sports will handle better than the races as well.

[HokieZHP]

This doesnt make sense. The sport springs don't lower the car more.. this is known. I think you have it all backwards. I've heard that the sports will handle better than the races as well.

No I have it straight. It's the sport cup kit. That kit doesn't use sport springs. It uses a different spring you can't buy outside of the kit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nike001]

No I have it straight. It's the sport cup kit. That kit doesn't use sport springs. It uses a different spring you can't buy outside of the kit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sport cup shouldn't lower the car more than the race, that doesn't make sense. It's even advertised that the race springs lower the car more than sport springs or the sport cup kit. I've seen other people's race springs set ups and others with the normal sport springs and I still think my sport cup kit makes my car sit higher than both of them.

[HokieZHP]

The sport cup shouldn't lower the car more than the race, that doesn't make sense. It's even advertised that the race springs lower the car more than sport springs or the sport cup kit. I've seen other people's race springs set ups and others with the normal sport springs and I still think my sport cup kit makes my car sit higher than both of them.

There is no race cup kit. Only sport cup and touring cup. And actually the sport cup kit advertises a 2.1" drop in front and the race springs actually advertises 1.7" or thereabouts. So the sport cup kit does lower more. The guy at H&R said so as well.

Plus rim size, and removing spring pads can make a car sit lower or appear lower. Maybe yours haven't settled or you didn't seat them correctly but the sport cup kit does lower more than the normal race springs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nike001]

I know there is no race kit, I was comparing my Sport cup to just sport springs and just race springs.. and it seems higher still than both of those.

Where are you getting these numbers from? Turner has these numbers:

Sport Cup Kit: 1.8" Front / 1.5" Rear
Touring Cup Kit: 0.75" Front / 0.25" Rear
Sport Springs: 0.75" Front / 0.25" Rear
Race Springs: 1.1" Front / 0.9" Rear

[HokieZHP]

I'm just getting the numbers from websites. However the lowering will differ between sport and non sport package BMWs. Also the ZHP's are lower than other 3 series so you probably wouldn't see the advertised 1.8" drop as you posted above.

Either way, according to the numbers above, the sport kit does lower more than than the race springs as I said before


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derbo]

The zhp is the same height as zsp cars. Zhp are not lower than sports e46.

The sport cup kit looks to be lower than the race springs. The race springs are lower than the sport rings. I got with the sport cup kit and be done LOL


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HokieZHP]

My only concern with the sport cup kit is how are the H&R shocks themselves?

[az3579]

My only concern with the sport cup kit is how are the H&R shocks themselves?

They're... Fine. Ride is not at all uncomfortable on rough roads, but is firm enough to handle the lowered characteristics of the car. I recommend.


Sent from my iPhone 4S from Tapatalk

[HokieZHP]

I guess compared to the bilstein sports. I know they are good shocks so I guess I'll try and look around for some info on the hr ones


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derbo]

I would say they are equal if not better since they are specifically matched valving to the springs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bimmeryota]

the matching of the springs to the shocks is huge IMO. If you're not going coilover, I've never heard anything bad about the H&R kits...

[johnrando]

Chris, what shocks did H&R say go with the Race Springs? I miss my race springs, but the Touring Cup Kit goes so much better with the Sport springs, the dampening was indeed way off with Race. But, I'm considering making a switch again, as I want lower/tighter. Anybody want to buy an almost brand new H&R Touring Cup Kit, lol?

[nike001]

Chris, what shocks did H&R say go with the Race Springs? I miss my race springs, but the Touring Cup Kit goes so much better with the Sport springs, the dampening was indeed way off with Race. But, I'm considering making a switch again, as I want lower/tighter. Anybody want to buy an almost brand new H&R Touring Cup Kit, lol?

They say that the touring cup has sport springs & sport cup has race springs. (or close to it)

That being said, and I've said it before, my car doesn't look comparable to cars with race springs as mine sits higher. I can barely even tell it's lowered.

[johnrando]

Thanks Dalton. To be more clear, what I meant was that Chris was looking at Biltstiens or other shocks to potentially go with Race Springs, so I was wondering what he found out. BTW, those aren't officially Race springs with the Sport Cup Kit, they are, as you said, close to them, but they are special springs that you can't get individually. And yes, the cup kit does have sport springs.

[HokieZHP]

When I called the guy just said that any good German shock will work. So that includes bilstein sports he said as those are the ones I asked about specifically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

So what did you decide? I'm likely keeping my setup for awhile due to costs.

[webster]

The zhp is the same height as zsp cars. Zhp are not lower than sports e46.


just going through this thread and this popped out, i'm pretty sure the ZHP is actually 0.6" lower than the standard ZSP suspension. i actually just read that in the bimmer magazine article that was posted in the other forum...

[terraphantm]

just going through this thread and this popped out, i'm pretty sure the ZHP is actually 0.6" lower than the standard ZSP suspension. i actually just read that in the bimmer magazine article that was posted in the other forum...

It's wrong. ZHP has the same springs and shocks as a sports suspenion E46 (that is to say, it's the same height as all 2002+ 330s and all coupes). Only the control arms are different on the ZHP

[QC_ZHP]

Hey guys, didn't want to start a new thread but how much is a good price for a used set of H&R race springs and Bilstein HD shocks? 7800 miles on both. What kind of ride should I expect matching these with Hotchkis sway bars?

[danewilson77]

$450

[QC_ZHP]

$450

Wow, thats exactly the price we agreed upon. That's why you're the Boss.