Fluids for Track

[M0nk3y]

Simple question.

I know OEM brake fluid shouldn't be used because it has boiled before in our cars while on the track.

What should I replace it with? Making purchases shortly for Oil, just wondering what other fluid I should plan on replacing prior to DD, autocross, and HPDE season.

Thanks.

[spencers]

Super blue.....

[ryankokesh]

Huh, good to know oem could boil. Never knew that before...!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M0nk3y]

Huh, good to know oem could boil. Never knew that before...!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Under extreme braking (aka HPDE conditions) you can get that.

The place where I'll be tracking (Mid-Ohio)...I should be topping out around 130-140mph before hard on brakes into China Beach....I don't want brake fade and ending up in that place.

[derbo]

I use ATE Type 200. Its gold in color but the same properties as ATE Super Blue. It's the cheapest of the higher boiling point brake fluids.

Boiling points Dry/Wet:

ATE Super Blue - DOT 4 - 536ºF / 396ºF
ATE Super 200 - DOT 4 - 536ºF/ 382ºF
BMW OEM DOT 4 - 446ºF /311ºF
Castrol SRF - DOT 4 - 590ºF / 518ºF
Motul RBF 600 - DOT 4 - 594ºF / 421ºF
Motul RBF 660 - DOT 4 - 617ºF / 400ºF

Under my usual track prep routine, I would double check my engine oil, power steering fluid levels as well. I usually change my engine oil before and after a track day. A brake fluid is also performed before and after every track day.

I use OEM BMW brake fluid after track days for daily use. I never got to boil my brake fluid on the tracks locally. The highest speeds I reach are around 130mph going down to 50mph at laguna seca. I have warped OEM pads at laguna though.


Are you seriously boiling your brake fluid? Did you have to pump your brakes? Normally the last lap I coast without using the brakes to cool off the brakes. After the end of the session I drive on a bit of road stretching to the entrance of the place to cool down the brakes before pitting again. There have been numerous times I watch my front pads smoking in the dismay of what I just did to them LOL. Maybe its time to invest in some cooling ducts at those speeds! Thats one of the "to do" things for me.

[GMATT]

Generally I use ATE Super Blue, but started using Motol late last year and did one track day on it (Watkins Glen, very hard on brakes) And really liked the Motol. Of course your results may vary!:chuck

[M0nk3y]

Are you seriously boiling your brake fluid? Did you have to pump your brakes? Normally the last lap I coast without using the brakes to cool off the brakes. After the end of the session I drive on a bit of road stretching to the entrance of the place to cool down the brakes before pitting again. There have been numerous times I watch my front pads smoking in the dismay of what I just did to them LOL. Maybe its time to invest in some cooling ducts at those speeds! Thats one of the "to do" things for me.

Thanks for the information.

No, I've never boiled my fluid...never done a HPDE before. However, there are multiple stories (and videos) of Z4Ms going off-track and brake fading on HPDE days.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O9EcV3I5av4

[derbo]

Brake fade or brake pedal goes to the floor but still works = shitty brake pads.

lost of pressure in the pedal and required to pump the pedal = boiling brake fluid.

[nike001]

Thanks for that list of boiling points, Derek

[zj96sc]

I've always heard Super 200 and Super Blue are the same fluid but different colors to aid in visual confirmation that the old fluid has been completely flushed out.

I'm putting super blue in hopefully this weekend. not really because i'm planning on track time, just because i think i still have the original fluid and the stuff has a great reputation.

[GT172I]

After boiling the oem fluid on the first day of my first HPDE at Road Atlanta, I flushed to ATE SuperBlue and now go between that and their Type200, like derbo mentioned it's the same stuff just without the tint so you can tell when the line is flushed with new fluid.

It was a little eerie going into the brake fade and subsequent boiling of fluid that first time I applied brakes once boiling after the back straight and they weren't there. Was fine after that first pump and was back up to speed by the next lap, just knowing I had to pump my brakes before the turn. Instructor was great to have in the car for that experience though.

The main reason it boiled though was due to my inexperience with tracking the car (first time on track). I didn't have the braking points down or confidence in the capabilities of the car so was braking a bit early and definitely not threshold braking. This led to much higher brake use and reduction in cooling time between applications gradually increasing the temp. After that first run where I felt them boiling I laser thermometered the rotors in the mid 400*F. And thats after a complete cool down lap once back in the paddock.

[brettbimmer]

^ What Derbo and others have said here. I have run ATE 200 Gold in my E30, E36, and E46 and never had an issue with boiling or even coming close, running both VIR Full many, many times and also the Shenandoah Circuit out at Summit Point, and that includes some really warm days at the track. Blue is fine, but it does make for a Blue Mess if you have to get into the system, hence I have never bothered using it for the extra few degrees of protection. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, so that is why they every HPDE wants the fluid changed within the last 6 months to a year. So long as the fluid is fresh and meets this requirement, you should be good. Now, if you find brake fade, a more aggressive track pad setup may be in order. Brakes? Aren't we supposed to be worried about going fast forward while at the track?! :rofl

Another idea for you is purchasing track insurance from Lockton Affinity or another provider for coverage while on the track. I have purchased this every time I have run my ZHP on the track and hope that I never have to use it, but I figure for the $100 that it costs me, it is well worth the peace of mind. Just remember, shiny side up!

[derbo]

brett,

what do you mean blue mess? I have super blue here waiting to go into my car right now. LOL

[M0nk3y]

^ What Derbo and others have said here. I have run ATE 200 Gold in my E30, E36, and E46 and never had an issue with boiling or even coming close, running both VIR Full many, many times and also the Shenandoah Circuit out at Summit Point, and that includes some really warm days at the track. Blue is fine, but it does make for a Blue Mess if you have to get into the system, hence I have never bothered using it for the extra few degrees of protection. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, so that is why they every HPDE wants the fluid changed within the last 6 months to a year. So long as the fluid is fresh and meets this requirement, you should be good. Now, if you find brake fade, a more aggressive track pad setup may be in order. Brakes? Aren't we supposed to be worried about going fast forward while at the track?! :rofl

Another idea for you is purchasing track insurance from Lockton Affinity or another provider for coverage while on the track. I have purchased this every time I have run my ZHP on the track and hope that I never have to use it, but I figure for the $100 that it costs me, it is well worth the peace of mind. Just remember, shiny side up!

Upon recommendation of a local, I'm looking to going to dedicated Auto-X and Track pads.

[derbo]

Upon recommendation of a local, I'm looking to going to dedicated Auto-X and Track pads.

Auto-X pads and track pads should be two different pads.

Most auto-x sessions require lower temperature range since you start a run usually without a warmup lap. A track pad would want the temperature range a little higher since the car moves at much higher speeds. This definitely results in harder braking and hotter brakes.

I personally run Carbotech XP10s for the track. I would imagine some Carbotechs XP8 can do the double duty without much compromise. I know carbotech reccomends their AX6 pad for auto-x and street use. The AX6 range is 50F-1100F and XP8 range is 200F-1350F

http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp

[brettbimmer]

brett,

what do you mean blue mess? I have super blue here waiting to go into my car right now. LOL

Haha, sorry for the confusion! Having helped out a fellow Bimmer owner bleed his brakes at the track who was running super blue, we both ended up looking like Smurfs when we were finished with the repairs. Some people love the blue fluid, personally I have never switched out from the gold stuff b/c being Smurftastic at the track wasn't on my list of tasks to accomplish. :biggrin

[LivesNearCostco]

Derbo is right that the best track pads will not be the best AutoX pads and vice versa. However I'm too lazy to change pads for track days so I just run a "compromise" pad, the Porterfield R4-S. I'm guessing it's similar to the Carbotech XP-8. They work pretty well for me, though maybe I just don't know what I'm missing in a dedicated track pad. They do squeak a little when cold, and dust more than the street ceramic pads I had on before.

[GT172I]

Derbo is right that the best track pads will not be the best AutoX pads and vice versa. However I'm too lazy to change pads for track days so I just run a "compromise" pad, the Porterfield R4-S. I'm guessing it's similar to the Carbotech XP-8. They work pretty well for me, though maybe I just don't know what I'm missing in a dedicated track pad. They do squeak a little when cold, and dust more than the street ceramic pads I had on before.

I'm also running Porterfield R4-S and love them but apparently have a slightly different experience as I haven't had any squeaks/squeals since bedding them in and while I can't compare to street ceramic, seems to me they dust less than OEM. To be fair though that's such a subjective comparison it's hard to make a fair judgement.

[M0nk3y]

Yes. I realize I won't gain the better of both worlds with 1 pad for Auto-X and Track...but I feel like anything is better than OEM. It felt like last year I was hard on the brakes and the car should of broke more, IMO.

Anyways, I know cold brakes will happen in Auto-X, but just like the tires, they "should" warm up, eventually. I'm just trying to find a happy medium IMO. I don't care about squeal or dust. They will be purely for track and auto-x. Dust them up baby.

[derbo]

I've run on my car in the past year:

OEM Pads - great for street, suck at the track. Brake fade without 10minutes of the session.
Cool Carbon Pads - low dust, great for street. The bite is more linear than OEM but slow initial bite. Less brake dust but they can cause heavy brake shudder when too hot.
Carbotech XP10 330i High dust, high squeals, but brakes incredible after initial warm up lap! 25minute sessions go without brake fade. The tires get greasy instead of the brakes.
OEM 135i Brembo Pads - heavy dust like OEM, initial bite like OEM but fades during the track days too easily.
Carbotech XP10 135i Front same as the 330i top.


I initially wanted to use Performance Friction Brakes but Bimmerworld was out of stock so I went to Carbotechs.

[Mike V]

Like others have already mentioned, I alternate between the Super Blue is Typ 200.

For pads, I really like the Performance Friction Z-Rated for combined street and HPDE usage.

[terraphantm]

I'd probably go with Castrol SRF. Overkill yes, but IMO it's not that expensive considering how much longer you can potentially run it

And if I do track this car this year, I'll probably just run OEM pads for street and auto/x, and run dedicated track pads at the track. Easy enough to change the pads

[derbo]

You should not have your brake fluid in for more than 6 months if you plan to track anyways. Although Castrol wet boiling point is in the 500+ zone. I'm not boiling my brake fluid at this point, so there is no reason to upgrade to something that high for that price if I bleed my brakes every track day.


Also be careful with switching pads but not rotors. You need to make sure that there are no uneven deposits and that you completely erase all the old pad layers off before switching over. Otherwise you get massive vibrations from the brake pedal. :)

I think I'm going to a dedicated track pad/rotor setup from now on.

[terraphantm]

You should not have your brake fluid in for more than 6 months if you plan to track anyways. Although Castrol wet boiling point is in the 500+ zone. I'm not boiling my brake fluid at this point, so there is no reason to upgrade to something that high for that price if I bleed my brakes every track day.


Also be careful with switching pads but not rotors. You need to make sure that there are no uneven deposits and that you completely erase all the old pad layers off before switching over. Otherwise you get massive vibrations from the brake pedal. :)

I think I'm going to a dedicated track pad/rotor setup from now on.

Floating rotors should reduce the vibrations due to deposits, no?

[M0nk3y]

Floating rotors should reduce the vibrations due to deposits, no?

That is what I thought off of it.

[gr330zhp]

I did Ate Super Blue along with stainless steel brake lines, Redline diff and tranny fluids, BMW 5W-30 and BMW Coolant

That's what I run :dunno