Apex Wheels

[GMATT]

Just as a FYI for the Mafia, I heard back from Apex via e-mail today. They will be having another GP starting in the next couple of days for wheels that fit our cars. (squared and otherwise) The way their gp's normally go, you get free shipping and depending on number of people committing to buy, a discount.

These are light weight wheels and in my opinion, nice street or track wheels.

Hope it is ok to post this.

[spencers]

Wooooooooooooot

[zhpnsnv]

Agreed - they're great. I bought these then got cold feet at the last second and recommitted to the 135s. If the ZHP were likely to see track time, I'd have a set of 17s, fo sho.

[zj96sc]

I've been waiting for the 17" round. Hopefully this is it.

[HokieZHP]

Are they only going to be 17" or will 18" be offered also?

[zj96sc]

the 18" group buy closed 18 days ago.

[spencers]

the 18" staggered group buy closed 18 days ago.

Fixed...

[zj96sc]

Fixed...

False. Kind of. #5 was square.

http://www.apexraceparts.com/ARC-8-Wheel-Group-Buy-5_p_142.html


This Group Buys is for 18x9.5" ET35, 18x10" ET25 and 18x10.5" ET27 wheels only at discounted pricing. These sizes can be purchased in a square or staggered setup.

:thumbsup

granted, 9.5 square isn't really a ZHP fitment.....just noting that the buy that just closed was not staggered only. #5 was wide square, #6 was staggered.

[GMATT]

My understanding from the Apex e-mail today.............................I was looking for 18x8.5 squared set up. They will have this on this GP, don't know about 17's

[zj96sc]

They mentioned in #5 or #6 that a 17" was coming "later in Q1." :excitedlywaiting

[spencers]

17x9 CONCAVE!!!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651746


Apex's Facebook says stay tuned later this week for E36/E46 fitment.

[Hermes]

17x9 CONCAVE!!!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651746


Apex's Facebook says stay tuned later this week for E36/E46 fitment.

WHAT? Possible track wheels... Do they fit over the stock brakes?

[zj96sc]

I will giggle like a little girl if they can get us a concave E46 fitment....but its tough to do given et and dish are the same measurement. will definitely be watching closely.

[spencers]

Do they fit over the stock brakes?

Come on man! Read the link I posted..............................

[danewilson77]

Come on man! Read the link I posted..............................

"Yes" would have taken less effort.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[UdubBadger]

I'd love another set of these but probably a tad out of my price range on wheels right now even with group buy pricing.

[derbo]

Seems like my ideal wheel is 17x8.5 I rub in the rear with 17x9.. :(

[UdubBadger]

well the Apex offsets are made to be able to run a wider wheel

[derbo]

17x9 fits my fronts barely...but it rubs on my rears..:(

http://img.skitch.com/20120214-8n5gxr8kue1ir1fsm6cpgysghn.png

I rub on 8.5 +40 already..so imagine 17x9 +42..extra 4mm sticking out.

[Hermes]

Come on man! Read the link I posted..............................

Yeah, I did after I posted that. It was around 3am when I posted so my train of thought wasn't exactly working in the proper direction. Sorry about that


17x9 fits my fronts barely...but it rubs on my rears..:(

http://img.skitch.com/20120214-8n5gxr8kue1ir1fsm6cpgysghn.png

I rub on 8.5 +40 already..so imagine 17x9 +42..extra 4mm sticking out.

Have you rolled your rear fenders or are you still stock?

[derbo]

rolled. It only rubs bad during large bumps or with people. That bothers me enough.

[spencers]

Yeah, I did after I posted that. It was around 3am when I posted so my train of thought wasn't exactly working in the proper direction. Sorry about that

quite alright. :p
I was like, really? There's some excellent photos in that link.

[Hermes]

rolled. It only rubs bad during large bumps or with people. That bothers me enough.

I rarely have people in the back but bumps are definitely an issue for me. Do you have adjustable ride height? Are you slammed or just slightly down from stock

[LivesNearCostco]

I just started getting rubbing in back with 17x8.5" ET40 rims after lowering on coilovers, but only in hard turns with my track tires. It was worse when the car was loaded up with a full gas tank and 300 lbs of wheels/tools/fluids. That's like having 1.5 full size American males in the back, except that full size adult males don't really fit so well in the back seat!

I don't think I had any rubbing at stock ride height or with daily tires (Bridgestone Potenza RE760). The track tires (Hankook R-S3) are wider with a more square shoulder, even though they are the same width on paper (255/35/18 vs. 255/40/17). After I noticed the rubbing on Saturday, I increased rear ride height so it's maybe 0.25" slightly below stock and I think this eliminated the rubbing in turns. Spring rates are 375 lbs/inch front and 430 lbs/inch rear. Rear camber is between -2.0 and -2.2 degrees.

[Hermes]

If that's the case I'm definitely going adjustable. Possibly a rear camber issue?

[nike001]

rubbing in back with 17x8.5" ET40 rims doesn't seem right... That's almost stock spec

[LivesNearCostco]

I know, it bugged me for that reason, though I only noticed this Sunday morning. (It's possible it happened at the track one week earlier but I was too clueless to notice.)

It only rubbed when I was both lowered and using the track tires, which are slightly wider than my street tires. Lowered with street tires did not rub. Stock spring swith track tires did not rub. But lowered and track tires = slight rubbing in hard turns. On Sunday when I raised the rear ride height, I also made rear camber slightly more negative, but I need to buy a digital level to get a rough measure of my current camber.

[derbo]

I just started getting rubbing in back with 17x8.5" ET40 rims after lowering on coilovers, but only in hard turns with my track tires. It was worse when the car was loaded up with a full gas tank and 300 lbs of wheels/tools/fluids. That's like having 1.5 full size American males in the back, except that full size adult males don't really fit so well in the back seat!

I don't think I had any rubbing at stock ride height or with daily tires (Bridgestone Potenza RE760). The track tires (Hankook R-S3) are wider with a more square shoulder, even though they are the same width on paper (255/35/18 vs. 255/40/17). After I noticed the rubbing on Saturday, I increased rear ride height so it's maybe 0.25" slightly below stock and I think this eliminated the rubbing in turns. Spring rates are 375 lbs/inch front and 430 lbs/inch rear. Rear camber is between -2.0 and -2.2 degrees.

On the factory 135M wheel 8.5 +50 in the rear I do not rub on 255/35/18 tires.

I run 18x8.5 +40 255/35/18 Bridgestone RE11s. They rub in the rear like you as well. I believe I have the same ground control kit setup as Costco man over here. My rear camber is -2.0 with 11' of toe in. I already fender rolled but it's not rubbing at the fender....

http://img.skitch.com/20100609-qx24xjniy2beru5r51yu858mdg.png


car is fairly low...

http://img.skitch.com/20111212-ny6apqjbdkdseg2swjxwu4w9bs.png


Doesn't help to raise it as it still squats during trackdays..

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/207831_10150158209108482_762918481_6677526_7122738 _n.jpg






back on topic:

I would really like to get a set of 17x9 +42 if i can figure out my rubbing issue..Ground control was no help saying that is the offset of the wheels that wont clear.

[zj96sc]

If you're squatting so far that you rub regardless of where you set ride height, I think you need a higher spring rate.

In the offroad world we limit wheel/tire rub by extending bump stops as a simple fix. You could try buying an extra bump stop and cutting it in half and seeing if that keeps you off your tire.

[nike001]

If you're squatting so far that you rub regardless of where you set ride height, I think you need a higher spring rate.

In the offroad world we limit wheel/tire rub by extending bump stops as a simple fix. You could try buying an extra bump stop and cutting it in half and seeing if that keeps you off your tire.

This & that. Or just go higher. I bought 12mm and 10mm spacers off a guy on E46fanatics and he promised to me that they will not rub if my car is lowered.

[LivesNearCostco]

Oy, mine were rubbing in the same place! What spring rates are you running? I've got 375 front, 430 rear.

My track wheels have the same offset (17x8.5" ET40). If stock 18x8.5" 135s are ET50, that explains why my street tires don't rub. Plus they are narrower, despite both being rated as 255mm width. I just took one off and measured the full width of each side-by-side.
Hankook R-S3 255/40/17 -- 254mm
Bridgestone RE-760 255/35/18 -- 250mm
Conti ExtremeDW 245/40/17 -- 250mm

I bought a cheap digital angle gauge last night from Harbor Freight and used it to measure camber. My rears were -1.8L and -1.9R, so I just cranked the left rear adjustment bolt to maximum negative camber and that made it about -1.9 too. If I want it more negative, I have to lower more or get adjustable lower control arms. But going lower will require higher spring rate, or skinnier tires.


On the factory 135M wheel 8.5 +50 in the rear I do not rub on 255/35/18 tires.
I run 18x8.5 +40 255/35/18 Bridgestone RE11s. They rub in the rear like you as well. I believe I have the same ground control kit setup as Costco man over here. My rear camber is -2.0 with 11' of toe in. I already fender rolled but it's not rubbing at the fender....

http://img.skitch.com/20100609-qx24xjniy2beru5r51yu858mdg.png

back on topic:
I would really like to get a set of 17x9 +42 if i can figure out my rubbing issue..Ground control was no help saying that is the offset of the wheels that wont clear.

[derbo]

Here is where I'm a little concern about adding another bumpstop. By adding a bumpstop, it means I am intentionally bottoming out the shock to the bump during track days. That sounds like a bad idea in my head but definitely I'll look into it more since I do not know too much about using bumpstops as part of variable stiffness.




17x9 is all i ask for! Mayb I'll just get it and say screw it let it rub till it doesnt anymore! LOL

[zj96sc]

Yeah, I am a little displeased that the E46 uses the shock as the suspension compression stop. The RSM isn't something I want to be using to stop the entire chassis. But....that's the way it came from the factory and I'm sure it was a consideration in the design of the chassis. That said, I'd still rather be using that than my tire.

[LivesNearCostco]

I did an AutoX test and tune last Saturday and it appears my rubbing has gone away after raising the rear adjusters that additional turn. Also set rear camber to -1.9° on both sides. Here are photos of what the ride height looks like now with stock 135s. What do you guys think, does this look like stock rear ride height or a little lower than stock? I think it's about 0.25" lower than stock but am not sure. I measure it as 12 7/8" on the back left and 12 5/8" on the back right with 3/4 tank of gas and no driver in the car. Left rear adjuster set one turn higher than right rear adjuster.

Back left 3372

Back right3371

[danewilson77]

It's lower than stock.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[derbo]

My rear height is about 565mm from the bottom of the fender to the bottom edge of the rim. That's what the alignment machine had me measure lol. I don't like that height to just minimize rubbing lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LivesNearCostco]

Ouch you're making me do math here... If you have 18" stock 135s, the outward rim diameter is about 19" or 482.6mm across. I'm measuring from center or rim, so subtract half of rim diameter (241.3mm) and you're hub center-to-fender ride height is 323.7mm, which is 12.74", right between my left rear (12.63") and right rear (12.87") heights.

If you had it aligned with 17" wheels, my math is all wrong.

[derbo]

im on 18" rims lol. That math seems logical. so that means you are lower on one side?

[LivesNearCostco]

Ground Control suggested I set the left side adjusters one turn higher in back, 2 turns higher in front. Primary reason is I mostly drive solo sitting on the left. There was another reason but I don't remember what it was.

[danewilson77]

Ground Control suggested I set the left side adjusters one turn higher in back, 2 turns higher in front. Primary reason is I mostly drive solo sitting on the left. There was another reason but I don't remember what it was.

More turns are made to the right?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[murph]

430 lb springs are significantly softer than stock. (well, the stiffer part of the progressive stock springs) Go with at least 600 in the rear. Performance will improve, and you won't rub.

[LivesNearCostco]

What is the rate of the E46 sports suspension stock rear springs once they're pre-loaded? I thought GC told me stock spring was progressive but once you preload it with the car's weight, it's linear at 400 lbs/inch over the working part of the spring. But I might have misunderstood, or GC might have been thinking of the E36 rear spring. I was assuming my current 430 lb/in was 7.5% stiffer than stock. I certainly don't want rear springs that have a lower rate than stock.

The next step up in rates suggested by Ground Control is around 440 lb/inch front and 547 lb/inch rear. Not sure what is after that but I guess about 500/600. What front spring rate would you suggest if I go 600 lb/inch for the rear, and what spring rates are you running?

[murph]

All depends on your application... I liked 550/650 on the street with the ASTs, might be too harsh on ground control shocks.

Vorshlag tested the rear springs at more like 600 lbs, I believe.

[LivesNearCostco]

This Vorshlag spring testing? http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_springrates.php
I clicked on the spreadsheet link and saw...


BMW E46 2001 330Ci Front 130 lb/inch linear
BMW E46 2001 330Ci Rear 320-380 progressive (really 360-380)
BMW E46 M3 Vert Front 140-170 lb/in progressive (really 170+)
BMW E46 M3 Vert Rear 350-493 progressive (really 377-493)
BMW E46 2004 ZHP 330i Front 140 lb/inch linear
BMW E46 2004 ZHP 330i Rear 375-750 lb/in progressive (really 440-658)
Dinan E36 M3 front 100 lb/in linear
Dinan E36 M3 rear 425 lb/in linear

So it appears my rear springs (and Derbo's) are same as Dinan E36 M3 rears, stiffer than the 2001 E46 vert OEM rears, but significantly lower rate than the 2004 ZHP sedan rears. Those start at 375 lb/in but assuming each back corner carries at least 800 lbs static, the working rate from 2"-4" of compression is 440-658 lb/in progressive.

Interesting... now I'm thinking I do need to try higher rear spring rates. My current rear rates (430 lb/in) are where the OEM ZHP springs start (at 2" compression), but much lower than where they end up under heavy cornering load. Your rear rates were where the OEM ZHP springs end up between 3-4" of compression.

[murph]

And I realize I never answered your question, I use 600/750 in higher grip situations, and am thinking I'll try 650/750 next year. (600+ up front gets to be a bit much on the street)

[LivesNearCostco]

When you say higher grip situations, besides the surface type, what kind of tires are you using with those springs rate--regular summer, sticky summer (like Star Specs), R-comps, or slicks?

[derbo]

thats interesting that the zhp rear is that wide of a range. I didn't know that. Upgraded springs here we go

[murph]

I use 265/18 Dunlop star specs (colder weather) and hankook RS3s. (warmer) when I say higher grip situations, I mean when it's 75+ on smooth asphalt, or 70+ on concrete. Colder weather or beat up surfaces mean less grip, and so the car rolls less, and less spring or bar is required to control camber loss.

I've logged over 1.5g's in this car in Lincoln. "high grip" I generally think of when I'm getting more than 1.2-1.3.

[derbo]

17x9 or 17x8.5? :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Little correction to my math. Jay of Ground Control pointed out to me that due to the lever action of the rear upper control arm, 800 lbs of corner weight applies about 1100 lbs of force to the rear springs. So if Vorshlag's published rates are correct, the static compression of the stock ZHP rear springs is about 2.5" and the spring rate at that point is somewhere between 500 and 600 lb/inch.



BMW E46 2004 ZHP 330i Front 140 lb/inch linear
BMW E46 2004 ZHP 330i Rear 375-750 lb/in progressive (really 440-658)

So it appears my rear springs (and Derbo's) are same as Dinan E36 M3 rears, stiffer than the 2001 E46 vert OEM rears, but significantly lower rate than the 2004 ZHP sedan rears. Those start at 375 lb/in but assuming each back corner carries at least 800 lbs static, the working rate from 2"-4" of compression is 440-658 lb/in progressive.

[Chad44]

Derbo: are you running adjustable camber arms? I am trying to size up a set of track wheels, and now that I know the apex will clear the 135 calipers, they are my most likely candidate. I will be doing a set of adjustable camber arms at some point, and getting rid of my HR coils and getting a real coilover kit... anyway, not meaning to thread jack, back to the question: do you have adjustable camber or no?

[derbo]

Derbo: are you running adjustable camber arms? I am trying to size up a set of track wheels, and now that I know the apex will clear the 135 calipers, they are my most likely candidate. I will be doing a set of adjustable camber arms at some point, and getting rid of my HR coils and getting a real coilover kit... anyway, not meaning to thread jack, back to the question: do you have adjustable camber or no?


Rear factory camber settings allowed me to get to -2.0 which is where I wanted to be so I didn't need to buy arms for the rear. I do have plates for the front to get to -3.