BBK upgrade, Thoughts?!

[SoloEuro]

hey fellow enthusiasts,
I recently had my car in the dealership to replace my ignition coil and gasket valve covers, but my buddy who works in the service department informed me that I have to get my brakes replaced soon, specifically the rear ones. (less than 3k left on them)

Since I will have to do the rear, I might as well do the fronts, and however ECS sells the BMW Performance BBK setup, it's only for the fronts. Do you guys have any suggestions on an affordable BBK setup? I've looked at UUC/Wilwood, stoptech's and brembos, but the latter two are a bit more pricey and probably out of my range.
Now this is more for performance than looks, but I would prefer to find a set where the calipers are yellow/black lettering.

Thoughts? Suggestions on these or any i've missed?

Before this is asked, why BBK and not OEM? I know right now it will be more expensive, BUT, if i were to get all of them replaced at my dealership with labor, i'm sure it would be a lot more. So I'd rather get BBK and install them myself, like I helped out with when my brother redid his setup on his M3. I also drive a couple of streets were people like to stop for NO apparent reason. :scratchinghead So i would like the extra/quicker stopping power.

Thanks in Advance guys!

[mimalmo]

Unless you track your car, you'll likely never benefit from a BBK upgrade. BBK's are all about fade resistance and the ability to stand up to the heat and wear & tear seen on the track. Those are conditions you'll never see on the street unless you're Brian Spilner.

[Hornung418]

BBK wont stop you any quicker than OEM. In fact they work better when they're hot. So a typical DD situation would have no effect in stoppage times.

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

[danewilson77]

But damn if a BBK doesn't look good though.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[UdubBadger]

I can tell you from owning them the bmw performance brembo pistons have been known to crack apart after a day at the track.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221203&highlight=shattered

[UdubBadger]

my suggestions are to buy some high quality perfomance pads, slotted rotors and just have your calipers powdercoated if you need the look. There is more than enough stopping power there.

[az3579]

BBK wont stop you any quicker than OEM. In fact they work better when they're hot. So a typical DD situation would have no effect in stoppage times.

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

I beg to differ.


That is all.


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[zj96sc]

BBK wont stop you any quicker than OEM. In fact they work better when they're hot. So a typical DD situation would have no effect in stoppage times.


I beg to differ.


That is all.

You may beg to differ, but it is pure physics and has been proven.

If a stock system can engage ABS at speed for a single stop (which a healthy stock system can), that is the end of the discussion - this is the limit of deceleration, limited by tire adhesion. More torque from bigger brakes is irrelevant. Nevermind the fact that improperly engineered BBKs typically only modify the front brakes and this throws bias and balance completely out of the window (along with ABS pressure dynamics designed for stock calipers) which opens its whole own can of worms.

The second you talk about more than 1 stop or any tracking, this analysis is irrelevant and BBKs will eventually gain the edge - increased thermal capacity, therefore better fade resistance, better modulation, better pad wear, etc etc.

For a DD application, you will probably get more from playing with pad compound and tires than a BBK. For heavy use (tracking) a BBK will get you what you need.

From StopTech's own white papers:


By increasing the effective caliper piston area and the rotor effective radius, these two factors work together to increase the 'mechanical gain' of the front brakes, building more torque for the same pressure, everything else being equal. So, from a bias perspective we are not pushing the vehicle toward instability, but rather just the opposite - we are underbraking the rear axle! The obvious impact would be an increase in stopping distance - probably the one thing the new owner was actually hoping to reduce. Ironic.


Contrary to popular belief, the real reason sports- and racing cars use big brakes is to deal with heat. Period. There has been a bunch of stuff published which will disclaim this, but when you look at the braking system from a design standpoint, making them 'bigger' doesn't fundamentally do anything for stopping distance. It's all about the heat.

[derbo]

I can tell you from owning them the bmw performance brembo pistons have been known to crack apart after a day at the track.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221203&highlight=shattered


Sadly this is merely the ceramic piston. From what I can tell its from track pads that hold higher heat and trackdays. Had I read about this before I jumped the gun I probably would've went 6piston Stoptech instead..LOL But now I am going to replace those ceramic capped pistons with the stoptech alum pistons.

[UdubBadger]

good idea ;)

[Chad44]

I picked up a set of the oem gray 6 pistons that needed to be rebuilt, and the stop tech rebuild kits should be here any day now... next is just shaving down the stock 135 bracket and mounting the new ones on the car... I'll be into them for about $1,200 like the ecs kit, but I'll have the upgraded pistons, and I just received my Hard Brakes titanium brake pad heat shields... I do think the yellow calipers would be pretty on the car though!

Here's a pic from my test fit earlier this week!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EmF5xvTE_Et7kZUbmJslHyVkvHEKi9nvjnqDzYCL-28?feat=directlink

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FrKRu_FFcKs/T0nhhw7bSGI/AAAAAAAADwA/vIRuq-Abs64/s640/IMG_0655.JPG

[zhpnsnv]

I've spent lots of time talking to brake experts in search of track day materials for my MINI. different car, same physics. Bbk will not decrease your stopping distance/time. It will give you greater repeatability under stressful conditions as it will dissipate heat enormously better than stock. Also, adding a "bbk" to the rear is pure bling (not that theres anything wrong with that). Finally, adding unsprung, rotational mass to your car has downsides for performance, too. Not sure if these kits are heavier than stock or not.

If you want looks, this is your route. If you want to improve heat dissipation and consistency, swap out pads, and get direct cooling to those rotors.

[Chad44]

They are both larger and lighter, but that could be accomplished by replacing the rotors with the included oem performance rotor that is a couple lbs lighter than stock. However, the caliper itself it also a little lighter than the stock cast iron hunk of metal we start with.
I believe you are overlooking a few things on how the bbk can help. The multiple piston design allows for a more uniform application of pressure to the rotor surface, helping both rotor and pad last longer. While aggressive pads and rotors can help increase stopping power, they also heat up the rotors quicker, leading to earlier overheating. I like the look, but really I'm just preparing to run at Watkin's Glen this summer... I got brake fade at Autocross with the stock brakes, aggressive pads, and ate gold fluid... I could only imagine what a real track would do to me.


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[zhpnsnv]

No doubt- agreed on all points there. It will most likely come down to your goals for the car. The occasional track day will suit these stock brakes fine, plus they look friggin great. While there might be more durable aftermarket options out there, that might be too hardcore.

One thing to add re autox and tracks: autox can be more likely to induce fade since there are no triple digit speed straights to cool everything down. I actually had a Wilwood caliper on fire after a session at Jefferson circuit which is tight and short with limited room to get going. That's also because ducts that don't attach to the rotor don't do much on minis, not sure about the zhp ducts.

[derbo]

Chad, where did you order the stoptech parts? I might as well look into it since it's coming eventually.

[Chad44]

I will be doing a whole write up and DIY, but I got them at thmotorsports.com.
$363.36 shipped for 12 pistons, dust boots and seals. That's the same as what Turner sells for $450.


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[derbo]

Thanks Chad!

Only thing I couldn't find is the 32mm pressure seal listed.

So far I've seen

28mm, 32mm, 36mm short pistons and dust boots and the 28mm, 36mm pressure seals.

[Chad44]

There are kits that include pistons, seals and boots. I'll post the part numbers.


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[Chad44]

143.99128
143.99132
143.99136

Upon checkout I used coupon code 5offFive for 5% off also.


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[derbo]

thanks Chad. Too bad the code doesn't work anymore.

Also the part numbers for the short and long pistons are identically oddly enough. Make sure to people know to get the short ones ;)

Also each kit ordered is enough for one caliper. So total of 6 rebuild kits are ordered. :D

[Chad44]

Part numbers are different between piston lengths. For example:
143.99128 is a 28mm short kit
143.99228 is a 28mm long kit
The 1 and 2 signify the difference.

I just used that code last week! Weird that it doesn't work anymore. There's one for 4% off too I'll post.


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[Chad44]

Look what FedEx just delivered!

http://img.tapatalk.com/626eeb85-3391-ab20.jpg

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[cakM3]

Nice Chad!!! Now get those calipers rebuilt and mounted......pics as well :thumbsup

[derbo]

apologies. I was staring too hard at the numbers late at night and didn't catch the small 2! :(


Sweeeet :D Looks like I'm ordering these too. :)

[dubbedown]

I beg to differ.


That is all.


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You're wrong, all else being equal, ie lines, fluids, pads - it will be the same. There's no way you're stopping faster with a bbk on the street unless you encounter fade issues. And if you do have fade issues on street you're likely endangering drivers nearby with such reckless driving. Often times people will swear by the improvement in stopping power of a bbk but what they don't realize is most bbk's come packaged with slightly more aggressive pads and or combined with SS lines which also help with pedal feel. But it's the pads, NOT the calipers (which btw those same aftermarket pads can be used with your stock calipers).

But there's a reason track pads do in fact bite harder but are not advised for street (and perform worse than oem pads on the street). Heat is everything and your brakes will never get that hot on the street, or even in your 50 second autocross run. It took me 20 mins at Summit to hit fade and that was with repeated threshold braking coming down the front straight at speeds above 125mph.

[zhpnsnv]

You're wrong, all else being equal, ie lines, fluids, pads - it will be the same. There's no way you're stopping faster with a bbk on the street. And unless you encounter fade issues on the street you won't benefit. And if you do have fade issues on street you're likely endangering drivers nearby with such reckless driving. Often times people will swear by the improvement in stopping power of a bbk but what they don't realize is most bbk's come packaged with slightly more aggressive pads and or combined with SS lines which help with pedal feel. But it's the pads, not calipers (which can be used to replace your stock pads).

But there's a reason track pads do in fact bite harder but are not advised for street, and perform worse than oem pads on the street. Heat is everything and your brakes will never get that hot on the street, or even in your 50 second autocross run. It took me 20 mins at Summit to hit fade and that was with repeated threshold braking coming down the front straight at speeds above 125mph.

+ 3 billion.

[dubbedown]

I would add the only difference one might feel with a bbk is due to the larger rotor which equates into more swept surface area but spending $2000+ for this reason alone is silly. The main benefit of the bbk is to dissipate heat efficiently and prevent any fade issues. If anyone is considering a brake upgrade because they're not satisfied with their stopping power, chances are it's your tires more than anything. And if you want, slap on more aggressive pads but be warned you may end up with squealing brakes or increased dust.

[derbo]

I first got cool carbon pads. These were street/track pads according to Bavarian auto. They performed well on the track when I was still learning. As I got better and had to stop faster they began to fade more. I upgraded to carbotech pads and these were great on the track. I would be happy with this setup but I splurged on the 135i bbk for the semi floating rotors. Next up is proper cooling ducts and I got myself a decent HPDE setup that should have no problem with fade.


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[dubbedown]

I first got cool carbon pads. These were street/track pads according to Bavarian auto. They performed well on the track when I was still learning. As I got better and had to stop faster they began to fade more. I upgraded to carbotech pads and these were great on the track. I would be happy with this setup but I splurged on the 135i bbk for the semi floating rotors. Next up is proper cooling ducts and I got myself a decent HPDE setup that should have no problem with fade.


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Curious to know of your feedback on that setup. I considered it for a while given its good price but the only thing that held me back was 1) existing complaint by e82 owners that the rotor itself is too small for that caliper and 2) it now shifts the brake bias in our car.

Btw, if I were you, I'd look into the backing plates they have for those calipers b/c the seals on the calipers are known to get damaged from excess heat. +1 on the cooling ducts... and if you don't want to spend $$$ on braking duct, you should try to piece your own kit together from these guys:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=BRAKEDUCT

[SoloEuro]

haha wow, i've been super busy with school work that I totally forgot I made this thread! :rofl But for an update, I decided to go more for looks. Got a hook up through another e46 member and got a deal that I couldn't pass up for a BBK. So my current sig is the teaser pic for the brake setup! I'm just waiting on my MaxJax Lift to arrive, to help with installing the BBK and suspension parts and then I will post an installation thread and final pics of everything!:thumbup

...but carry on! :rockon You guys are giving great information on brakes! I'm learning a lot here! :thumbsup

[derbo]

I don't really seem to have a problem with fade on the brakes at the current moment. If I do not do a proper cool down lap, I can see my brakes smoking when I stop in the pit area. I do notice the dust boots have melted but thats common problem anyways.

I already have the backing plates sitting in my parts bin waiting to be installed next time around. The cooling ducts will require a little more research. The backing plate is probably the most specific part I need and I probably can either use the Turner Motorsport one or the Bimmerworld one.