Issues from cold start until warm

[Alex]

Hey all, got a funky issue here.

2004 ZHP, auto, 46k miles. Just did the DISA valve 2 weekends ago. No check engine light, haven't scanned for codes.

First of all, this only seems to happen when both the engine AND the weather are both cold (Cold as in San Diego 40 at night chilly). I think I've narrowed the culprit down to either the pulleys or something attached to the pulleys, as there is definitely a sound (I'll try to get a video up this weekend) that gets consistently louder as the RPMs climb. The strange thing is, once the car is up to normal operating temp, the sound seems to disappear, or at least isn't audible with the hood closed.

This car isn't an E46, but this is the closest approximation of the sound I could find on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXej4PmypzA&feature=related

Also, I'm not 100% if this is related, but it seems to be, at a full stop, especially on inclines, there is a sporadic... tapping or knocking FEELING in the brake pedal. I see no visible change in the RPMs, but it sometimes has a shudder associated with it.

So, I know this is all pretty vague, but I wanted to let you guys get a chomp on this before I started ordering parts and hoping to fix something!

[Hermes]

Have you done the VANOS seals and rattle kit? Maybe you can reach out to some of our locals to come over one night and see if you can replicate it while they're around. I would do it but I'm not exactly nearby right now

[Alex]

Negative on the VANOS, but this sound doesn't have the associated rattle I've been hearing from all the VANOS vids I've seen. I did have a rattle previously, but that was fixed by a DISA swap.

[Smolck]

Easy way to see if it is pulley related, pull the belt and start the car for a few seconds and see if you still have the sound. But to me, it sounds like the tell tale sound of a dying P/S pump which is very common. Have you checked your fluid res lately? What condition is the fluid in?

[Alex]

I'll check the fluid when I leave work today, anything I should be looking for besides level?

[Hermes]

At least the quality of the fluid... Maybe take a pic and post it? I would also stop at Autozone or O'Rielly on your way home and get any codes read. What part of town do you live in, there are some of us all around SD county

[Alex]

I live down in Mission Valley. I'll report back with a pic of the fluid, and will probably get to an autozone tomorrow.

[danewilson77]

I live down in Mission Valley. I'll report back with a pic of the fluid, and will probably get to an autozone tomorrow.

Prolly brown. Ewwwwww.

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[Alex]

http://i.imgur.com/EKvsU.jpg

Bright pink, topped off.

[danewilson77]

Yup. Looks good.

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[LivesNearCostco]

Alex, my best guess from listening to a noisy Subie motor is that it's one of the pulleys. It's possible the lube on one of the bearings is old and makes noise when it's cold. A bad Secondary Air Pump can make noise only on cold start, but it usually only runs for a minute at most and its noise should not vary with RPMs.

If not pulleys, it could be some fluid is slightly low but expands enough when engine is warm to cover the noise-making culprit. When checking P/S fluid level, also check coolant level (wait for engine to cool down) and oil level. See P/S fluid color--when new it's clear and dark red (ATF). As it gets older I think it gets more cloudy then turns reddish black.

Edit: That P/S fluid color looks good to me. Was it low?

[Alex]

Good info there LNC, P/S Fluid was topped off, as is the coolant. I'll check the oil and coolant level tomorrow morning when it's cold again and see how that looks.

[kayger12]

Sounds like a P/S pump or even alternator to me.

But since the alternators don't seem to whine too often on these, I'd bank on P/S pump.

[Smolck]

Just cause the fluid is pink doesn't mean the P/S pump isn't hosed. If your car is making a sound like the one you posted in the video, then it is almost certainly coming from the P/S pump. The pulleys would make a higher pitched squeak, like mice in your engine bay.

[Alex]

Any tests I can do on the P/S pump? There's no whine when turning the wheel, nor do I have any loss of degradation of my steering, which points me away from the P/S pump.

[kayger12]

Does the whine get any worse when you turn the wheel when it's cold?

[danewilson77]

Just cause the fluid is pink doesn't mean the P/S pump isn't hosed.

No... But it would have been a data point.

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[Alex]

Does the whine get any worse when you turn the wheel when it's cold?

Negative, simply gets louder when gas is applied, then goes away as the engine gets to operating temp.

[kayger12]

Hmm. Well, the pulleys are a relatively cheap troubleshoot which need to be changed out eventually anyway.

Doesn't sound like pulleys to me though.

Will wait til you get a video up.

The Suby almost sounds like an alternator whine to me...

[Smolck]

No... But it would have been a data point.

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100% agree with that. Based on the other comments, it may not be, without hearing it first hand everything is "best guess"

[Alex]

Alright ladies and gentlemen, here's the whine in all its bastard glory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er0m44BEEjA

[kayger12]

Video isn't playing for me. Says unavailable.

[Hermes]

Video isn't playing for me. Says unavailable.

+1 - I can load on youtube but it says 0:00 long. Did you get a chance to stop at autozone yet?

[Alex]

Sorry about the video. I uploaded and team out the door. it should be ready to go once its done processing

[kayger12]

No worries. We'll be waiting.

[Smolck]

Now it says video has been removed by user.

[Alex]

Alright guys, vid should be working now.

[Smolck]

So hard to tell because when you get close the audio quality of your phone goes to pot. At first listen I was thinking pulley, still leaning that direction though at times when you are farther back it sounds like P/S pump whine. I'd pick up an idler pulley and see what happens when you change it.

[danewilson77]

I would replace both pullies. That's got my vote. Might as well do AC tensioner as well. For $100, that noise should disappear.

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[nike001]

pulleys and tensioners. Do that and report back.

[LivesNearCostco]

Hmmmm... I can hear the noise but cannot say what it is. Almost sounds metallic. My guesses in order:
1) Mechanical fan viscous clutch failing, since you have a Step/auto
2) Water pump bearing failing
3) P/S pump failing
4) Tensioner pulley and/or Idler pulley
5) Part of water pump impeller broke off

I know you the cooling system typically goes at least 60K miles without problem and you have only 46K miles. But the mechanical fan puts additional load on the water pump bearing, increasing the chance it could fail early. The viscous fan clutch is supposed to let the fan blades slip until the car warms up, then the fan starts to rotate at the same speed as the water pump. Hence my theory since your noise goes away after it warms up. If the fan clutch fails totally, it can send broken fan blades flying into your hood, hoses, radiator, etc. Unfortunately I don't know how to check if the clutch is bad.

While you're replacing the idler and tensioner pulley, try wiggling the water pump to see if the bearings have any free play. Recently had similar noise on my old Saturn and it turns out a thing metal ring broke off the water pump impeller, so it could still circulate coolant but the ring rattled around when you revved the car. But I discount that possibility in your case because you only get it when things are cold.

[Alex]

Ordering parts today... might be a good time to add underdrive pulleys to the order...

[MrMaico]

One way I've seen mentioned on another forum for checking the fan clutch is to take a rolled up newspaper and try to stop the fan blades with it. If you can, the clutch is bad. I'd assume you want to do this with the engine up to temp.

[Alex]

Hey all, did the belts and pulleys, sound is gone! Thanks for the help.

[danewilson77]

Perfect

[Alex]

Yup, tensioner and deflection pulleys were shot, luckily the AC tensioner was ok because pelican sent me the wrong part to change it out. Also changed out my air filter and cabin filter. I don't know if it's just me, but the car feels much... healthier.

[echo46]

Good thing you started with the pulleys. Nice job.