Transmission & Motor Mounts

[webster]

When I first bought my ZHP back in August, the shop that inspected it told me that the motor mounts as well as transmission mounts were "collapsed" and needed replacement. Aside from recommending fluids/filters changes, that's all they found wrong with it. i wasn't ready to pay them right away, as i wanted to do some research, but i asked if it was absolutely urgent and the guy said no, it will just cause the ride to be a little rougher til you get them replaced. at that point i kind of said whatever to the mounts issue and haven't dealt with it since.

so now that i'm getting around to thinking about this, what would you guys recommend? is it worth it to go aftermarket or is OEM ok? i don't know anything about mounts. the shop quoted roughly $400 for motor and transmission mounts P+L. i assume that means OEM parts.

thanks as always.

[danewilson77]

Just go oem. Those will be fine and should last another 100k. You don't want to DIY?

[Hornung418]

OEM M3 mounts or Polyurethane Group N bushings should do the trick.

A man of your DIY ability should be able to get these done on your own!

[danewilson77]

OEM M3 mounts or Polyurethane Group N bushings should do the trick.

A man of your DIY ability should be able to get these done on your own!

So...are the regular oem mounts junk?

[Hornung418]

Not dismissing them...but if he's being quoted $400 for mounts, might as well just by some M3 mounts for $80 and DIY it.

The Group N mounts are like 300 bucks...but they are crazy stiff, yet don't transfer vibrations, all at the same time.

I myself will be getting the AKG 90A Engine and Trans Poly mounts when I do mine.

[danewilson77]

Not dismissing them...but if he's being quoted $400 for mounts, might as well just by some M3 mounts for $80 and DIY it.

The Group N mounts are like 300 bucks...but they are crazy stiff, yet don't transfer vibrations, all at the same time.

I myself will be getting the AKG 90A Engine and Trans Poly mounts when I do mine.

Do you have links to the goodies or is it a secret?

[kayger12]

I'm interested in seeing a DIY for this.

[Hornung418]

Mounts
http://www.akgmotorsport.com/catalog/catalog.php?page=1&category=e46%20Motor%20and%20Trans%20Mounts

Bushings
http://www.akgmotorsport.com/catalog/catalog.php?category=e46%20Suspension%2FBushings

[Mtnman]

This is interesting. Have you had a second opinion yet? Im pretty sure my indie who i trust told me he almost never has to replace the engine mounts on e46's. He also said hes never had to replace a rear diff on one either....and his shop is loaded with e46's. id get second opinion before i went and did this.

[Hornung418]

I have failed mounts as evidenced by the intense vibrations in R and 1st gears and a visual confirmation of leaking jelly from my driver's side mount.

[Mtnman]

You should drive that beast a little easier........ Its not a range rover horney!

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[johnnyrad]

I'm interested in seeing a DIY for this.

Me also.

What are symptoms of bad tranny mounts exactly? Vibrations?

[danewilson77]

Justin, you're talking about these...

Group N Motor Mount Set - Polyurethane 80A

And these....

Group N Transmission Mounts - Polyurethane 80A

Correct?

IDK about $410.00 though

Although....each BMW motor mount is $80.00

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/ES41737/ES41737/

And each Tranny mount is about $15.00 = $190.00 for the oem stuff.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/22316799331/ES2100620/

Why is that crap so expensive!!!!!!!!! AAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Hornung418]

Group N is expensive...it's also very new to the market. I wouldn't buy them unless I was older...like 60+ years...Regular 80A poly mounts (http://www.akgmotorsport.com/catalog/catalog.php?category=e46%20Motor%20and%20Trans%20M ounts) at the bottom of the page are only $200! Going those or the 75D race mounts...

[danewilson77]

Copy

[johnnyrad]

Tranny mount diy found here. Looks simple enough.

http://www.bmw330ci.net/projects/transmounts.php

[danewilson77]

Tranny mount diy found here. Looks simple enough.

http://www.bmw330ci.net/projects/transmounts.php

SOLD. I will be doing this soon.

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[johnnyrad]

^How bout it I'll be adding it to my list. I just have to figure out if the XI is a different setup then my Z..Oh what to do what to do.

[Smolck]

Apparently the E92 M3 mounts fit also.

I had one that was REALLY bad on my old E46 323i. I found it when replacing my oil pan (hole from road debris). Here is video I made and you can see the carnage to the motor mount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8O2cQdqiXc&list=UUuWcV_ePCN4zjZxt7cAwWcQ&index=10&feature=plcp

[danewilson77]

Apparently the E92 M3 mounts fit also.

I had one that was REALLY bad on my old E46 323i. I found it when replacing my oil pan (hole from road debris). Here is video I made and you can see the carnage to the motor mount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8O2cQdqiXc&list=UUuWcV_ePCN4zjZxt7cAwWcQ& index=10&feature=plcp

How hard was it to swap out the motor mounts? Do you have to drop the whole subframe that carries the cabs?

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[Smolck]

How hard was it to swap out the motor mounts? Do you have to drop the whole subframe that carries the cabs?

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It isn't hard at all. Motor mounts alone do not require the subframe to come out. I had to remove it because I was replacing my oil pan (had a hole in it). But all in all it is easy. You may need to jack the motor up a bit to get room to get it out, but the mounts are only held in by a bolt on top which is easily accessible with a few extensions from the top, and one on bottom which is also easy to get at (16mm if I recall). Nothing about this DIY is hard IMO.

[LivesNearCostco]

I've installed the same tranny mounts (UUC black) shown in that DIY, first without cups then later with enforcer cups, and have two comments on that DIY.
1) Heat shielding covers one of the four 13mm bolts holding the support brace. I removed it (3 10mm speed nuts).
2) It's very hard to tighten the top mount nuts to the transmission while both the support plate and exhaust are in place.
So if you run into bolt and nut access problems following that DIY, my suggestions are:


Remove that one piece of heat shield. Remove 3 speed nuts (10mm socket or 10mm nut driver) and slide it out the back to reach all 13mm bolts on the brace.
Remove exhaust, which I think is too much extra work. Or....
Or bolt the new mounts to the transmission first, then fit on the support brace. You have to make sure the mounts are oriented so that the anti-rotation notches on the bottom of the mounts will fit properly to the bumps in the brace.
Because lower mount studs are at angles, the plate will not want to go over both studs at the same time. I put the plate over one stud, then flexed the stud on the other mount inward until the plate went over it. This technique may not work for bolt-through mounts, though on those I suspect the stud can be pushed up through the mount to get the brace back on.
Then I bolted up the brace and the lower nuts of the mounts.
Then put back heat shielding


Maybe if you have small, deft hands you can reach both top nuts with a 13mm box wrench, even with the exhaust and brace installed. I could reach one of them that way, but not the other. You can install the enforcer cups on top or bottom of the mounts. UUC photos show it on top but I installed them on the bottom, sitting on the brace.

I briefly tried the BimmerWorld solid (but not bolt-through) urethane mounts with BW enforcer cups, and it was a little too much NVH for me for 90% street car. Saving those for the track car I might have someday. Also bought BimmerWorld solid rubber "Gruppe N Replica" motor mounts but never installed them. Someday...


Tranny mount diy found here. Looks simple enough.
http://www.bmw330ci.net/projects/transmounts.php

[danewilson77]

Thanks for the tips.

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[Smolck]

Thanks for the tips.

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If you want to borrow my engine brace tool I will gladly send it to you if you cover shipping. I bought it for $80 and used it for this project and a header install. Makes life a lot easier when doing these things IMO. As soon as it warms up I am going to use it again to replace my oil pan gasket on the ZHP.

[Hornung418]

If you want to borrow my engine brace tool I will gladly send it to you if you cover shipping. I bought it for $80 and used it for this project and a header install. Makes life a lot easier when doing these things IMO. As soon as it warms up I am going to use it again to replace my oil pan gasket on the ZHP.

Sounds like a a great idea for the meet!

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

[LivesNearCostco]

Oh Oh I have a tip about motor mounts too. Three tips even. :idea


Remove cabin filter tray. This gives more clearance when you lift the motor to get new mounts in.
Loosen lower nuts on transmission mounts before lifting motor. I didn't do this the first time and the stock mounts seemed to survive okay. But I lifted motor again later to install front subframe reinforcement plates, and a few months after that I found my UUC tranny mounts separated. It's possible I broke them by jacking up the motor without loosening those two nuts. Or maybe it was a manufacturing defect. We'll never know for sure, but to be safe, I would loosen the lower nuts before lifting the motor.
Can remove airbox to get easy access to top motor mount nut on driver's side
Removed SAP to get easier access to top motor mount nut on passenger side (still needed two 3/8" extensions and either a wobble extension or a 3/8" universal joint)
When I had trouble getting new passenger side mount in with the heat shield piece, I unbolted the mount brace from the engine (passenger side only) to make it easier. Though not everyone seems to need to do this. Maybe I just didn't lift my engine enough... because I hadn't removed the cabin air filter housing.... and I hadn't loosened the tranny mount nuts?


Edit: I should add that UUC took care of me on the transmission mounts, even though it's possible I broke them through "user error." I put in the BimmerWorld mounts for two weeks and one track weekend, then switched back to UUC black, except this time with TME cups.


It isn't hard at all. Motor mounts alone do not require the subframe to come out. I had to remove it because I was replacing my oil pan (had a hole in it). But all in all it is easy. You may need to jack the motor up a bit to get room to get it out, but the mounts are only held in by a bolt on top which is easily accessible with a few extensions from the top, and one on bottom which is also easy to get at (16mm if I recall). Nothing about this DIY is hard IMO.

[danewilson77]

If you want to borrow my engine brace tool I will gladly send it to you if you cover shipping. I bought it for $80 and used it for this project and a header install. Makes life a lot easier when doing these things IMO. As soon as it warms up I am going to use it again to replace my oil pan gasket on the ZHP.

Do you have a pic of tool? Or a link to purchase?

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[Smolck]

Do you have a pic of tool? Or a link to purchase?

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Harbor Freight.......

1000 Lb. Capacity Engine Support Bar (http://www.dpbolvw.net/click-4193730-10810933)

Item # 96524

[LivesNearCostco]

I wish I had one of those... well only when I was doing motor mounts and front subframe reinforcements. I think "I'll never need one of those again" except I will if I want to do oil pan gasket, oil pan baffles, oil pump nut, etc.

[Smolck]

I wish I had one of those... well only when I was doing motor mounts and front subframe reinforcements. I think "I'll never need one of those again" except I will if I want to do oil pan gasket, oil pan baffles, oil pump nut, etc.

When I used mine to do my oil pan I tucked it away in my garage figuring I would never use it again either. Then one day a friend wanted me to put headers on his car (requires removing motor mount and bracket for easier install) and I was glad I still had it.

[MrMaico]

Harbor Freight.......

1000 Lb. Capacity Engine Support Bar (http://www.dpbolvw.net/click-4193730-10810933)

Item # 96524

Nice! For that price I'm tempted to order one even though I don't need it at this time. Those supplied chains sure look wimpy but I assume they must do the job. Do you recall where you attached them to the engine?

EDIT: from looking at this I guess you'd just have to hook it to that lifting ring at the front of the engine and let the loosened trans mounts hold the back end.

http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/04/35/72

http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/images/1/02/77/03.jpg

[MrMaico]

I've installed the same tranny mounts (UUC black) shown in that DIY, first without cups then later with enforcer cups, and have two comments on that DIY.
1) Heat shielding covers one of the four 13mm bolts holding the support brace. I removed it (3 10mm speed nuts).
2) It's very hard to tighten the top mount nuts to the transmission while both the support plate and exhaust are in place.
So if you run into bolt and nut access problems following that DIY, my suggestions are:


Remove that one piece of heat shield. Remove 3 speed nuts (10mm socket or 10mm nut driver) and slide it out the back to reach all 13mm bolts on the brace.
Remove exhaust, which I think is too much extra work. Or....
Or bolt the new mounts to the transmission first, then fit on the support brace. You have to make sure the mounts are oriented so that the anti-rotation notches on the bottom of the mounts will fit properly to the bumps in the brace.
Because lower mount studs are at angles, the plate will not want to go over both studs at the same time. I put the plate over one stud, then flexed the stud on the other mount inward until the plate went over it. This technique may not work for bolt-through mounts, though on those I suspect the stud can be pushed up through the mount to get the brace back on.
Then I bolted up the brace and the lower nuts of the mounts.
Then put back heat shielding


Maybe if you have small, deft hands you can reach both top nuts with a 13mm box wrench, even with the exhaust and brace installed. I could reach one of them that way, but not the other. You can install the enforcer cups on top or bottom of the mounts. UUC photos show it on top but I installed them on the bottom, sitting on the brace.

I briefly tried the BimmerWorld solid (but not bolt-through) urethane mounts with BW enforcer cups, and it was a little too much NVH for me for 90% street car. Saving those for the track car I might have someday. Also bought BimmerWorld solid rubber "Gruppe N Replica" motor mounts but never installed them. Someday...

Thanks for writing up the diy! From looking at the diy here.....

http://www.bmw330ci.net/projects/transmounts.php

http://mrmaico.smugmug.com/Cars/BMW-ZHP-misc/i-tJbMpX8/0/L/Transmounts1-L.jpg

......it looks like there is lots of room to get at the top mount nuts to tighten them. Is there something missing/removed in that pic that limits access? I'm tempted to do the trans mounts just based on the conclusions comments on his diy.

Thanks again.......Barry

[LivesNearCostco]

Yeah from that picture it looks super easy, but at least on my car, I could only get to the top of one tranny mount with the wrench because the exhaust was in the way. Maybe that's a 5-speed and the 6-speed tranny is longer so the exhaust gets in the way? I suggest take a look under your car (with jack stands or lift, of course) and just see if you can get to both top nuts.

[MrMaico]

Yeah from that picture it looks super easy, but at least on my car, I could only get to the top of one tranny mount with the wrench because the exhaust was in the way. Maybe that's a 5-speed and the 6-speed tranny is longer so the exhaust gets in the way? I suggest take a look under your car (with jack stands or lift, of course) and just see if you can get to both top nuts.

Yup, you're right it is exhaust. I didn't think my Guibo was out in the open like that either. Forgot I had this pic that look at.....

http://mrmaico.smugmug.com/Cars/BMW-ZHP-misc/i-DrcfDRs/0/L/IMG1255-L.jpg

[MrMaico]

Look what Harbor Freight just so happens to have on sale......

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-engine-support-bar-96524.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNDM4MDgzMTkiLCJza3Ui OiI5NjUyNCIsImlzIjoiNTQuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0A IjoiMzUyNiJ9%0D%0A&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=0312a&utm_source=1003

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_11976.jpg

[LivesNearCostco]

Yeah assuming exhaust pipes bend to the left (driver's side) in the same place on all E46 cars, just moving the guibo and transmission support brace forward about 4" would make it easy to get to the tops of both tranny mounts. Also explains why the UUC DSSR for the 330 6-speed is shorter than the 5-speed DSSR, why you don't have to drop the exhaust to install a SSK on the 5-speed, why the 6-speed has a different length driveshaft, etc.

The support chains on the HF engine support look thin, but the engine support bracket at the front of the engine isn't that hefty, at least the two studs that hold it to the head aren't very thick.

[danewilson77]

Now let's talk about this. The left and right feet, sit in the hood channel, and the to middle lift screws would lift engine by screwing them down/up?

Also... I thought the two lift point were fore and aft, not side by side. Would one only be able to use front lift point?

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/dsc01290s.jpg

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[Smolck]

Dane, watch my video again and pay attention to 1:07 and forward. I show how I did it. You do not need to attach it (nor is it made) for both lift mounts. Just the front is how it was designed to work. As long as you do the engine and tranny mounts separately it is no problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8O2cQdqiXc&list=UUuWcV_ePCN4zjZxt7cAwWcQ& index=10&feature=plcp

[danewilson77]

Dane, watch my video again and pay attention to 1:07 and forward. I show how I did it. You do not need to attach it (nor is it made) for both lift mounts. Just the front is how it was designed to work. As long as you do the engine and tranny mounts separately it is no problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8O2cQdqiXc&list=UUuWcV_ePCN4zjZxt7cAw WcQ&index=10&feature=plcp

Great stuff. Thanks S. Where was that left chain going?

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[Smolck]

Great stuff. Thanks S. Where was that left chain going?

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Wrapped around the VANOS solenoid and down toward the tstat. If it had failed it would have caught it. You could double chain it I suppose. But it isn't holding that much weight.

[LivesNearCostco]

I should clarify that you definitely can change the tranny mounts on the 6-speed without dropping the exhaust. Just if you can't reach the top of both mounts with a 13mm wrench, you have to remove the transmission support brace first. Then it's easy to loosen the top nuts and remove the mounts from the transmission.

[Ryans323i]

When looking at mounts, some say "for race use only". Why wouldn't one want to put those on their performance oriented dd/ weekend spirited driving warrior?

[Smolck]

When looking at mounts, some say "for race use only". Why wouldn't one want to put those on their performance oriented dd/ weekend spirited driving warrior?

Driveline vibration and noise. The theory is with no rubber ALL of the engine power is transmitted to the driveline, however while that is true, ALL of the noise, vibration and harshness is also transmitted to the DRIVER. It will drive you nuts and be noisy. Not worth the 1% gain in parasitic drivetrain loss you get back.

[Ryans323i]

Gotcha, thanks.

[LivesNearCostco]

Here's my personal feeling on the UUC Black and BimmerWorld poly transmission mounts. Keep in mind that everyone has a different level of tolerance for NVH.

UUC Black mounts without TME cups: Slightly more vibration than stock mostly at idle (clutch engaged) or low RPMs. I pretty much stopped noticing them completely after 2 days
UUC Black mounts with TME cups: Slightly more vibration than stock. After 3 days, I only noticed them 5% of the time.
BW poly mounts with their own enforcer cups: Significantly more vibration than stock. After 3 days I still noticed it 60% of the time. After a week I still noticed it 30% of the time and I switched back to UUC black. I say these are good if at least 30% of your car's miles are track, AutoX or weekend canyon runs. (My car is only 10% track/AutoX.) If you spend all your time >3,000 RPM, you might never notice them.
The BimmerWorld guy who advised me on the mounts recommended I stay away from bolt-through poly mounts. He said when he tried them (didn't say whose but popular ones are from UUC and Vorshlag), he felt like the transmission was IN the car with him. But many racers seem to use bolt through poly, or even solid aluminum/delrin tranny mounts--that is on cars that are 90-100% track use.
BimmerWorld web site suggests (and sells) Rogue Engineering mounts as a good choice for something stiffer than stock but suitable for a street car, so I'm guessing they're similar in feel to UUC black mounts without TME cups


Edit: With the BimmerWorld poly mounts, I could have lived with the extra NVH 30% of the time, but I didn't want to and I still had the UUC mounts.

[danewilson77]

Wrapped around the VANOS solenoid and down toward the tstat. If it had failed it would have caught it. You could double chain it I suppose. But it isn't holding that much weight.

Thanks

[Smolck]

Here's my personal feeling on the UUC Black and BimmerWorld poly transmission mounts. Keep in mind that everyone has a different level of tolerance for NVH.

UUC Black mounts without TME cups: Slightly more vibration than stock mostly at idle (clutch engaged) or low RPMs. I pretty much stopped noticing them completely after 2 days
UUC Black mounts with TME cups: Slightly more vibration than stock. After 3 days, I only noticed them 5% of the time.
BW poly mounts with their own enforcer cups: Significantly more vibration than stock. After 3 days I still noticed it 60% of the time. After a week I still noticed it 30% of the time and I switched back to UUC black. I say these are good if at least 30% of your car's miles are track, AutoX or weekend canyon runs. (My car is only 10% track/AutoX.) If you spend all your time >3,000 RPM, you might never notice them.
The BimmerWorld guy who advised me on the mounts recommended I stay away from bolt-through poly mounts. He said when he tried them (didn't say whose but popular ones are from UUC and Vorshlag), he felt like the transmission was IN the car with him. But many racers seem to use bolt through poly, or even solid aluminum/delrin tranny mounts--that is on cars that are 90-100% track use.
BimmerWorld web site suggests (and sells) Rogue Engineering mounts as a good choice for something stiffer than stock but suitable for a street car, so I'm guessing they're similar in feel to UUC black mounts without TME cups


Edit: With the BimmerWorld poly mounts, I could have lived with the extra NVH 30% of the time, but I didn't want to and I still had the UUC mounts.

I wonder what issues may come up long term with these type mounts. If you are transferring additional energy to the chassis, it has to go somewhere. I wonder how much of that the unibody soaks up and how much stress it adds. To me it just isn't worth it on a street vehicle, even if it sees some track duty.

[kayger12]

I wonder what issues may come up long term with these type mounts. If you are transferring additional energy to the chassis, it has to go somewhere. I wonder how much of that the unibody soaks up and how much stress it adds. To me it just isn't worth it on a street vehicle, even if it sees some track duty.

+1

Well reasoned and well said.



Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[M0nk3y]

I wonder what issues may come up long term with these type mounts. If you are transferring additional energy to the chassis, it has to go somewhere. I wonder how much of that the unibody soaks up and how much stress it adds. To me it just isn't worth it on a street vehicle, even if it sees some track duty.

Extra vibration from a source like that doesn't do you anything.

Popular thing to do on our cars is replace the engine and tranny mounts to avoid 1-2 grinds. I've yet heard a single problem from my cars or any of my friends that have don't this.



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[webster]

well this thread took off. thanks for all the responses, everyone. i think i decided to go with OEM M3 motor mounts and the UUC neoprene tranny mounts w/ the cup housing.

maintenance to get done before summer:

VANOS, VCG, Plugs, FCABs, Mounts - Motor/Tranny

[Smolck]

Extra vibration from a source like that doesn't do you anything.

Curious how you come to that conclusion? Ever seen a race car chassis over time? They degrade. I have no doubt that a hard tracked street car with solid mounts will also suffer such degradation. Is it a major concern? Probably not, but you can't say the vibration doesn't do anything. As with ANYTHING in cars, there is no free lunch. Every mod has a downside.

[danewilson77]

Every mod has a downside.

Disagree. Bold statement.

I think. Webby's plan is sound.

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[Smolck]

Disagree. Bold statement.

I think. Webby's plan is sound.

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You can disagree, but their ain't no free lunch.

Solid motor mounts, Upside: they give you a more solid feel and you get more power to the wheels. Downside: Vibration and long term issues with subframe degradation (especially on a car like the E46).

Supercharger/Nitrous, Upside: more power. Downside: increased wear and tear on engine internals

Coilovers, Upside: Ride height adjustment and better handling. Downside: more harsh and poor ride quality (hit a pothole wrong and mushroom your shock tower)

Lightweight flywheel, Upside: Faster revs, easier rev matching. Downside: Gearbox chatter, difficult to start off on hills etc.

Most purpose built race cars (where you mainly find coilovers, solid mounts, and light flywheels) get their chassis/engines refreshed all the time so the tradeoff is worth it. On a street car you have to balance the good with the bad.

[danewilson77]

Yup. Just disagreed with "every mod has a downside". That's all.

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[Smolck]

Yup. Just disagreed with "every mod has a downside". That's all.

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Ok, smart.

[danewilson77]

Ok, smart.

No... Not really smart. Just common sense. I think everyone understands.

[Smolck]

No... Not really smart. Just common sense. I think everyone understands.

Yea, no mod has down side, youre right. What was I thinking?

Not even super sticky tires right? Great grip, short tread life. But hey, none of my examples make ANY sense do they?

[danewilson77]

Yea, no mod has down side, youre right. What was I thinking?

Not even super sticky tires right? Great grip, short tread life. But hey, none of my examples make ANY sense do they?

Lol. Chill. Everything you said made sense. Let's move on...

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[GMATT]

Breath deep.............................................. ....... ok better now?

[M0nk3y]

Curious how you come to that conclusion? Ever seen a race car chassis over time? They degrade. I have no doubt that a hard tracked street car with solid mounts will also suffer such degradation. Is it a major concern? Probably not, but you can't say the vibration doesn't do anything. As with ANYTHING in cars, there is no free lunch. Every mod has a downside.

Lets see, you went straight to a Race Car example. That's a smart way to compare apples to apples. Duh!

First off, Race Car transmission mounts have straight through bolts. Assuming you're all too smart for this forum, I won't explain anymore on this. Vibration there is huge, but the trade-offs are worth it.

Hard-tracked cars with OEM mounts is asking for danger...and can involve with mount failure, but we're all too concerned with some vibration! Well then, go for it.

Once again, all Mounts that we have suggested are not bolt through patterns, the vibration will be there because of a different compound, but you will not shake your car apart...nor will it cause damage like a race car where your chassis will degrade.


Yea, no mod has down side, youre right. What was I thinking?

Not even super sticky tires right? Great grip, short tread life. But hey, none of my examples make ANY sense do they?

You done with your power trip?

Stainless Steel Brake Lines with brake fluid flush and aftermarket fluid. There has to be a downside to that, right? If so...then don't do it. I'll laugh as your go 100+ off a course because you boil your OEM fluid

Exhaust. Lighter weight and awesome sound. That's a positive in my book.

Stubby Antenna. Better aesthetics and same range, hrm...that one works too.

Upgraded Pads, better stopping power...and same noise output as my OEMs (which sequel like a.....). Yep, check in that book.

Upgraded Transmission Mounts. Same vibration, if little more that will cause EXTREME DAMAGE to my car...and no 1-2 gear grind. Hrm...no gear grind is a positive in my book.

I can go on and on, but I feel you get the point by now. I'm always wrong and you're right. Let me bow down to you.

[kayger12]

Well said, Kyle.

I think Mr. Smolck is a little too used to being idolized at other forums and couldn't seem to fathom that someone could dare disagree with him or question something he said.

As we all know, this place is much bigger than any one person-- regardless of how much they think they have to offer.

It seems he has decided to move on to a place where he is more comfortable and no one has the audacity to question something he says.

I think we'll leave his posts here as a gentle reminder of why this forum remains the best one around, while the douche bags congregate elsewhere.

[M0nk3y]

Thanks for the support.

I didn't want to say anything prior. But we've had our encounters on other forums where he thought he was an idol to the gods.

Glad we don't have that here.

[webster]

this thread...yet another example how awesome this site is.

[Hornung418]

LOL...just read the whole thread...

Then googled his name and then I found the lovely BimmerFest Thread...Quite the joke.

[kayger12]

Yep-- some people just can't hack it here.

They just get so frustrated that they can't act like jerk offs here that they voluntarily leave.

Sad, really.

[Hermes]

I saw that other thread right when it popped up and chose not to respond to it. No need to throw fuel on the fire. I think we should just end this threadjack and get back to the actual topic here

[webster]

I saw that other thread right when it popped up and chose not to respond to it. No need to throw fuel on the fire. I think we should just end this threadjack and get back to the actual topic here

i already figured out what mounts i'm gonna go with, feel free to threadjack :p

[danewilson77]

Do you guys think the ///M OEM Tranny mounts are any better that th ZHP tranny mounts? They seem to be nearly identical and made of same material. No?

ZHP

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/ES2100620/ES2100620/

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/ZHP.jpg

///M3

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/22322282340/ES41849/

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/M3.jpg

[MrMaico]

Do you guys think the ///M OEM Tranny mounts are any better that th ZHP tranny mounts? They seem to be nearly identical and made of same material. No?

ZHP

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/ES2100620/ES2100620/

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/ZHP.jpg

///M3

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/22322282340/ES41849/

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/M3.jpg

Looks seem to be identical, I wonder if the M3 ones might be made of a bit stiffer material? :dunno

[webster]

lol, i just asked my shop this same question. he said there is really no difference. i decided when the time comes to do the OE mounts.

[danewilson77]

lol, i just asked my shop this same question. he said there is really no difference. i decided when the time comes to do the OE mounts.

Thanks Webby....

[LivesNearCostco]

Webster, FYI I just removed the aluminum TME cups from my UUC black transmission mounts. They were okay with stock E46 motor mounts and I'd gotten pretty used to them, as mentioned earlier I only noticed the extra vibration like 5% of the time. But then I put in BimmerWorld solid rubber motor mounts and I noticed the vibration 80% of the time when idling below 800 RPM (traffic lights). And it was worse with the clutch engaged (pedal up) in neutral than with the clutch pedal down. Maybe the transmission mounts were pre-loaded from the motor mount replacement? After 5 days I reinstalled the UUC black mounts without the cups and did my best to eliminate preload on the transmissoin support brace. Much better... back to only noticing extra vibrations 5-10% of the time.

Why did I go through all this trouble? First I was afraid of money-shifting on track so I got the UUC mounts. Then I thought maybe they weren't stiff enough so I added the cups. Then I started tracking more and on one right right-hand turn, I couldn't downshift from 3rd-->2nd in mid-turn. Apparently the shifter gets hung up on the reverse gate if you're turning right hard enough. So I figured solid motor mounts might fix that. But the vibrations were driving me nuts.

Yesterday I ran into the same shifting problem in a tight right-hand turn! Apparently solid BW (not bolt-thorugh) motor mounts + UUC black transmission mounts (without cups) still allows some drivetrain motion. Next step is possibly putting the BimmerWorld transmission mounts (with their own enforcer cups) back in to see if I can learn to tolerate the extra vibes.

A faster BMW driver told me he had this same problem in his Z4 M coupe and solved it with bolt-through transmission mounts, but I'm not willing to do that in a street car. So I just need to learn to downshift before the turn instead of in the middle of the turn.


well this thread took off. thanks for all the responses, everyone. i think i decided to go with OEM M3 motor mounts and the UUC neoprene tranny mounts w/ the cup housing.

maintenance to get done before summer:

VANOS, VCG, Plugs, FCABs, Mounts - Motor/Tranny

[M0nk3y]

A faster BMW driver told me he had this same problem in his Z4 M coupe and solved it with bolt-through transmission mounts, but I'm not willing to do that in a street car. So I just need to learn to downshift before the turn instead of in the middle of the turn.

Yea, Z4M are notorious for 1-2 Grind and 3-2 denial. You have to go super hard mounts to solve the problem, because the bright BMW engineers decided to throw the regular Z4 transmission into a car with a S54 in it at the last moment. That means the whole transmission torques at WOT and you'll grind.

I've practiced the heart-beat method with my shifts now and I've been fine very since. It's pretty simple, you pause a heart-beat when you shift and you're fine. I don't know if this is something you should look into. Vid of me doing it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0Dl-ejS2g

[LivesNearCostco]

Nice driving. When I do AutoX I don't put the tires into the squeal/slip zone nearly that much. If I did, I'd probably drop 2 seconds right there (on a course that was 108 seconds for me). Dropping 2 seconds would have bumped me up from 5th to 3rd place in class at that event (9 people ran for times in that class that day).

I sometimes use the heartbeat pause when going from 1->2 and it seems to work fine. But the 3rd->2nd denial has only happened so far if shifting in the middle of a hard right turn.

[M0nk3y]

Nice driving. When I do AutoX I don't put the tires into the squeal/slip zone nearly that much. If I did, I'd probably drop 2 seconds right there (on a course that was 108 seconds for me). Dropping 2 seconds would have bumped me up from 5th to 3rd place in class at that event (9 people ran for times in that class that day).

I sometimes use the heartbeat pause when going from 1->2 and it seems to work fine. But the 3rd->2nd denial has only happened so far if shifting in the middle of a hard right turn.

Those tires squeal alot, so don't think it's anything more. They are Toyo T1Rs, not really meant to to be on heavier cars. Those aren't the RS3s I was talking to you about, those will be mounted this year. You you'll be able to compare the squeal I produce from those.

It's interesting that you get denial in right handed turns, that it torques that much. Like you mentioned before, it might just be best to downshift before that turn.

[zhp43867]

Lets see, you went straight to a Race Car example. That's a smart way to compare apples to apples. Duh!

First off, Race Car transmission mounts have straight through bolts. Assuming you're all too smart for this forum, I won't explain anymore on this. Vibration there is huge, but the trade-offs are worth it.

Hard-tracked cars with OEM mounts is asking for danger...and can involve with mount failure, but we're all too concerned with some vibration! Well then, go for it.

It isn't asking for danger in all BMWs, in some it is. Just a side note


Stainless Steel Brake Lines with brake fluid flush and aftermarket fluid. There has to be a downside to that, right? If so...then don't do it. I'll laugh as your go 100+ off a course because you boil your OEM fluid

Some stainless lines have fitment problems, corrosion issues, and/or are not DOT approved. Some brake fluid is even harsher on paint than others, and some fluid is harder to bleed properly than stock BMW fluid. Track fluid often costs more. And let's be frank, BMWs stock brakes are pretty strong on a car like the ZHP. Fresh rotors, intact brake ducts and a fresh (OE BMW) fluid flush and I doubt any sane driver will be flying off the track boiling fluid.

Exhaust. Lighter weight and awesome sound. That's a positive in my book.

I agree. However, most exhausts have some subjective downsides. They might be 1) louder, 2) drone, 3) be hard to fit, c) have corrosion issues, d) have reliability issues, e) have legality issues.

The exception to the rule usually occurs when you pay for a very expensive, well engineered part like Supersprint or a number of other high end and often painfully expensive brands. Just because you don't believe more sound is a downside doesn't mean other people agree.

Potential downside: yes

Stubby Antenna. Better aesthetics and same range, hrm...that one works too.

The range is most likely shorter, even if you don't notice a difference.

Potential downside: yes

Upgraded Pads, better stopping power...and same noise output as my OEMs (which sequel like a.....). Yep, check in that book.

OEM pads shouldn't squeal, unless the Z4 M is some exception to the majority of BMWs. Low dust pads have less stopping power- and higher braking force pads often have heat thresholds and noise issues. The exception again being if you pay for an expensive pad like the Performance Friction Z pads or other, similar brands that cost 2-3 times as much as OE pads per axle.

Potential downside: yes

Upgraded Transmission Mounts. Same vibration, if little more that will cause EXTREME DAMAGE to my car...and no 1-2 gear grind. Hrm...no gear grind is a positive in my book.

Same argument as saying Powerflex bushings have little to no downside. To you that may be true, to others it isn't. NVH increases proportionally in relation to the durometer of the poly used. ZHPs don't really have 1-2 grind issues and money shifting issues (E36 M3)

Potential downside: yes


I can go on and on, but I feel you get the point by now. I'm always wrong and you're right. Let me bow down to you.

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but I think he was unfairly ganged up on here. I responded to your examples in your post.

I think the rule still generally holds true, in a modified form.

There is no free lunch. If you want to upgrade a BMW part without a downside be prepared to pay more (often much more) than you would for the comparable stock or compromised aftermarket part.

Otherwise recognize that you probably sacrificed something that BMW was trying to accomplish when upgrading or replacing the part. Often whatever you lose isn't important to you, but it is to some. Different strokes for different folks.

Additionally, in some arenas technology moves on- like tires. Pilot Super Sports are a definitive upgrade from the also expensive Pilot Sport, no downside. However, in many areas of aftermarket modification (bushings, SSKs, brakes, etc.) technology is not progressing that rapidly for our cars.

Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to start an argument here, just trying to... level the playing field a little I guess. I also know this is a slightly old thread but I think it's a worthy discussion to have, please let me know what you think.

[M0nk3y]

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but I think he was unfairly ganged up on here. I responded to your examples in your post.

I think the rule still generally holds true, in a modified form.

There is no free lunch. If you want to upgrade a BMW part without a downside be prepared to pay more (often much more) than you would for the comparable stock or compromised aftermarket part.

Otherwise recognize that you probably sacrificed something that BMW was trying to accomplish when upgrading or replacing the part. Often whatever you lose isn't important to you, but it is to some. Different strokes for different folks.

Additionally, in some arenas technology moves on- like tires. Pilot Super Sports are a definitive upgrade from the also expensive Pilot Sport, no downside. However, in many areas of aftermarket modification (bushings, SSKs, brakes, etc.) technology is not progressing that rapidly for our cars.

Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to start an argument here, just trying to... level the playing field a little I guess. I also know this is a slightly old thread but I think it's a worthy discussion to have, please let me know what you think.

Good notes. Just to add to a couple:

Performance Z Rated pads are only $20 for complete front and rear, not too much.

The antenna only effects the AM band. I don't use it so it's meh for me.

As for flying off the track, Z4M Stock Pads and Fluid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O9EcV3I5av4

There are pros and cons to everything in life, sometimes it just is better to take a risk when you know the reward is greater. I guess that's the best way to phrase it.

[zhp43867]

Good notes. Just to add to a couple:

Performance Z Rated pads are only $20 for complete front and rear, not too much.

The antenna only effects the AM band. I don't use it so it's meh for me.

As for flying off the track, Z4M Stock Pads and Fluid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O9EcV3I5av4

There are pros and cons to everything in life, sometimes it just is better to take a risk when you know the reward is greater. I guess that's the best way to phrase it.

Yep I think we're mostly in agreement. Also, yikes on the brake video! Still think that's unlikely to happen on an update to date ZHP with just a decent driver (as the brakes are a bit overmatched for the car). That video makes me remember E46 M3 owners having fade problems too...

[Hornung418]

Holy hell, I thought the Focus was gonna get it! Good thing that gate was open!

[blablac]

Good notes. Just to add to a couple:

Performance Z Rated pads are only $20 for complete front and rear, not too much.

The antenna only effects the AM band. I don't use it so it's meh for me.

As for flying off the track, Z4M Stock Pads and Fluid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O9EcV3I5av4

There are pros and cons to everything in life, sometimes it just is better to take a risk when you know the reward is greater. I guess that's the best way to phrase it.


that is a very long straight, you would think the brakes would have cooled down by then, or the guy had some really old fluid ? Started braking way to late ?

[M0nk3y]

that is a very long straight, you would think the brakes would have cooled down by then, or the guy had some really old fluid ? Started braking way to late ?

The point is to late brake.

He had oem fluid and pads, the pads got so hot they actually melted the rubber lines and he lost all pressure, the left brake was on fire

Sent using mental telepathy

[Vas]

Don't mean to bump an old thread however rather do this then start a new one. Plenty of good information here.

This is my experience/rant with UUC version 2 transmission mounts in red that are isolated. Quality wise both the mounts and cups are nice.

As far as removing the factory mounts, the easiest way that made sense for me was to remove the 4 bolts that hold the center beam and then remove the 2 nuts that hold the mounts to the center beam. During this time, I had a jack underneath the trans supporting it. Then the center beam came out without any issues and I was able to use a box-end wrench to loosen the two 13mm nuts on the trans that hold the mounts. So removal of the factory mounts was simple.

Next I proceeded to install the UUC mounts. They provided new hardware ( nuts and washers ). First I slid the new mounts unto the trans and made those tight using a box-end wrench. Then slid the UUC cups over the mounts so the cups were facing towards the ground and would rest against the center beam. Then I slid the center beam over one side and it lined up. Then the problem came up of getting the other mount to line up with the hole in the center beam. I ended up having to pry on the mount enough to where I was able to get the stud through. Mostly this was because of the UUC mounts being very stiff. After that I bolted the center beam back to the chassis and made the four 13mm bolts tight. Next was the installation of the hardware for the bottom of the mounts. I also just used a wrench and made sure they were tight. So in the end I probably spent 45min to an hour with the removal and installation of these.

First impression was horrible. There was soo much vibration and noise that I honestly could not stand. So I removed the enforcer cups thinking that since they were bolted directly to the center beam. With them removed, the vibration and noise was less but still unbearable for me. So I got fed up and removed the UUC mounts and enforcer cups and installed the factory mounts.

After doing some research online and calling UUC, apparently I made them too tight and created more noise and vibration by doing so.

Can somebody please explain how in the world does it make sense that transmission mount bushings need to be torqued to a specific amount? It's either they are loose or tight but why 16 pound feet is the required amount does not make sense to me.

So now I do not know if I want to install the UUC mounts again and torque them with my torque wrench or just screw it since my factory mounts are still in good condition.

BTW I also think that I made factory mounts too tight as well since I have a small vibration from them as well.

Rant////

[Hornung418]

Since they are bolt through mounts, you can over tighten them and squish them. Take a roller and measure the normal length. Tighten til deformation occurs and then back off a quarter of a turn. Trans mounts are easy so I would try again and see if it helps.

From a GS3, this was sent.

[Vas]

That's the thing. They are not bolt-through mounts but the isolated ones.

[MrMaico]

That's the thing. They are not bolt-through mounts but the isolated ones.

In that case, I'd be surprised if loosening the torque on the nuts is going to make much, if any, difference.

[Hornung418]

That's the thing. They are not bolt-through mounts but the isolated ones.
Return them and buy the bolt through mounts. Those UUC mounts have notoriously exploded and failed under hard conditions.


In that case, I'd be surprised if loosening the torque on the nuts is going to make much, if any, difference.

Plus one.

From a GS3, this was sent.

[mjweimer]

Just to add a data point to this thread, I replaced the stock trans. mounts with the Rogue pieces and have been very pleased.

No real added vibration - in fact I do not think it would be noticeable if you were unaware of the change - and an improvement in shifter placement/feel during spirited driving.

I also swapped out the front shift carrier bushing with a Delrin piece and refreshed all the other hardware at the same time (since I was in there). This simple bushing really made a nice difference in the feel of the shifts.

[Vas]

Version one of the UUC mounts have had issues but I was not able to find any issues with the version 2.

I received the black version of the mounts today and will give those a try. Will use my torque wrench and go by the specs that UUC and others have recommended.

[Torxuvin]

Just to add a data point to this thread, I replaced the stock trans. mounts with the Rogue pieces and have been very pleased.

No real added vibration - in fact I do not think it would be noticeable if you were unaware of the change - and an improvement in shifter placement/feel during spirited driving.

I also swapped out the front shift carrier bushing with a Delrin piece and refreshed all the other hardware at the same time (since I was in there). This simple bushing really made a nice difference in the feel of the shifts.

+1 I had rogue (If I remember correctly. I know they were aftermarket) differential and tranny mounts in my M3. I never noticed any added discomfort.

[derbo]

I used Rouge mounts and they've been great :)

[Vas]

Have you guys been just making them as tight as possible or actually going with the specs ?

[Hornung418]

UUCs specs are wrong. Go with the OEM specs from the Bentley.

From a GS3, this was sent.

[MrMaico]

Torque specs from the Bimmertools guide shows 15.5 Ft/lb for both the crossmember to body and trans to rubber mount.

[Vas]

This weekend I decided to try the black version of the uuc trans mounts with the enforcer cups. Much less noise and vibration however imo still too much for a bone stock daily driver. So I removed them and put the OEM mounts back in.

Btw this time I torqued them to factory specs.

Any other options out there that are an improvement over stock but also don't provide extra vibration and noise ?

[danewilson77]

This weekend I decided to try the black version of the uuc trans mounts with the enforcer cups. Much less noise and vibration however imo still too much for a bone stock daily driver. So I removed them and put the OEM mounts back in.

Btw this time I torqued them to factory specs.

Any other options out there that are an improvement over stock but also don't provide extra vibration and noise ?

What are you trying to achieve and why is oem not good enough?

Sent from Williamsburg, VA USA

[Vas]

The OEM trans mounts are way to squishy even though they are brand new.

Basically trying to achieve the nice crisp feeling from the shifter that you get with the poly mounts without any added noise or vibrations.

Are the rogue mounts rubber or poly ?

[Hornung418]

This weekend I decided to try the black version of the uuc trans mounts with the enforcer cups. Much less noise and vibration however imo still too much for a bone stock daily driver. So I removed them and put the OEM mounts back in.

Btw this time I torqued them to factory specs.

Any other options out there that are an improvement over stock but also don't provide extra vibration and noise ?

You have to sacrafice a little NVH for performance. Don't see the point in your complaining. You haven't driven on any mount long enough to break them in. Hope you know what you're doing.

From a GS3, this was sent.

[Vas]

A little nvh is one thing. But when you feel it through the seat especially at 2000rpm, IMO that's a bit too much.

Any poly is not going to become softer. And will be harder during the colder climates.

[terraphantm]

Try the E46 M3 transmission mounts. They're significantly stiffer than the mounts found on all other BMWs, but still rubber so they'll have some degree of isolation.