Better to do one HPDE at Laguna Seca or 2 HPDEs at closer tracks?

[LivesNearCostco]

I just saw the CCA Golden Gate chapter is doing a 2-day HPDE Feb 10-11 (Fri/Sat) at Laguna Seca. Even though it's not peak season, it's $600 for 2 days (with instruction and lunches).

I've never driven Laguna and would like to, but for that price I could do four track days (without instruction, bring my own lunch) at local tracks, say 2 days at Buttonwillow for $320 plus 2 days at Streets of Willow for $260. Or instead of 2 days at SoW I could do one day at AutoClub Speedway and one day of AutoX practice. The local tracks are not as scenic nor as famous, but I can get there more easily and the nearby hotels are cheap. If I do AutoClub Speedway, I don't even need to get a hotel.

What do y'all think--2 days on scenic track vs. 4 days on local tracks? Instruction on new track or practice on my own on familiar tracks? Super8 and Motel 6 vs. Monterey Hyatt? Or save the money for the Mafia reunion at Dane's house?

[yura]

I'd definitely do the four track days and talk to experienced guys on the track to get good advice.

I do lots of track days on the bike, and have done numerous "school + track time" combos, and find that the schools are all but useless. Might be different in the auto world, but I have my doubts. The most useful schooling/advice I've received was from other guys on the track - not instructors.

Either way, you're still quite well off!

The closest track to me (Pacific Raceways) is 3.5 hours drive away. Portland International is about 6 hours. ORP (personal favourite) is 8 hours away. Thunderhill and Northern Cali is 16 hours - done that, too. Enjoy your short travel distances! :)

[Hornung418]

I would do Laguna...Hell I'd just like to experience the Corkscrew one time. I would just need a slow speed lap LOL

My advice isn't worth much as I don't have a car that's able to be tracked at the moment hehe.

[spencers]

How much HDPE experience do you already have?

If I faced that decision I'd want to hit Laguna Seca after I've gained a fair amount of seat time/experience. I think it'd make the trip more worthwhile.

With little to no experience, go with the local tracks. Laguna Seca will always be there...

[Hermes]

I think you have enough experience. Drive to NorCal and run Mazda Raceway. Just be careful in the 2-4 section as lots of noobs eat it there

Willow and Autoclub are nothing compared to Laguna

[Jon D]

I must have gotten lucky cause I found the instructor days the most valuable. Especially when I was doing on a bike. They found some little technique differences that made big differences.

Jon D. Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[LivesNearCostco]

Jon D. and Kerunt: How do they instruct you on a bike? Does the instructor sit behind you? In the car HPDEs the instructor sits next to you, except for race/karting schools in single-seaters--then I guess they give you a helmet radio or follow you on track then give classroom feedback.

Spencers: I have done 14 track days, 9 with instruction, 5 solo. Have done at least 2 days at each So. Cal track except for Chuckwalla (0 days) and WSIR (1 day). I am decent at driving the school line, but not good at driving close to the traction limit.

There will be other track days at Laguna Seca later this year, like TrackMasters Racing (Mar 30, Apr 8, Jun 16, Jun 26) or Speed Ventures (June 29-July 1). They will probably cost about the same ($300/day) without instruction but will have a lower chance of rain. I do like having an instructor the first time I run an unfamiliar track. The other thing is I hope to upgrade my springs later this year so that could be an argument for waiting--to drive LS with both more experience and a better suspension.

[Hermes]

Do you have a set of track wheel/tires? I would look into some lightweight wheels and Ventus R-S3's for track days to maximize grip and lower unsprung weight

[spencers]

Spencers: I have done 14 track days, 9 with instruction, 5 solo. Have done at least 2 days at each So. Cal track except for Chuckwalla (0 days) and WSIR (1 day). I am decent at driving the school line, but not good at driving close to the traction limit.
Ah! That's a fair amount of seat time. Go hit the corkscrew.

[az3579]

Since you've done a fair amount of track days, I would hit Laguna Seca.
I would want to master a track (hitting all the right apexes, braking/acceleration points, turn-in and track-out points) before heading over to another track, though. I guess that could be personal preference. The way I'd like to do it is do maybe 5 -10 days at a certain track then move on to another one and keep alternating between all the new and old ones.

So, I guess the correct answer is: do them ALL! :biggrin

[yura]

Jon D. and Kerunt: How do they instruct you on a bike? Does the instructor sit behind you?

No, riding with a passenger is immensely different from riding solo, so doing that with a bunch of noobs on a racetrack is the last thing anyone would want. Instructors ride their own bikes, and there is no verbal communication between them and the students during the session. Normally instructors either follow or lead individual students 1-on-1 during the sesion, rotating the students between sessions, or on a as-needed basis. In between sessions is classroom time, where they go over lines, braking zones, body positioning, eye sight, and the million other things you have to do on a bike. It can be quite useful for beginners, but I find that the more track days I do, the less value I get out of these 'schools.'

My favourite part of any bike school is having an instructor ride in front of me, and following his/her line and pace.

[Jon D]

As he said the lead or follow. I think like everything else it depends on your skill level and instructors. The more advanced you are the better the. Instructor needs to be or more private the session.

[derbo]

Laguna Seca is by far my favorite track so far that I've attended. :) The corkscrew is an amazing feeling and my brakes hate me after a good session.

I actually jumped into laguna after maybe 5 trackdays. Played alot of Gran Turismo and Forza helped me at least know the track layout before hand. Learning it at its limit is still jarring. :X Laguna isn't very forgiving if you mess up since the walls are fairly close to the track.


I believe I was in advanced solo at the time. (Probably would've been confortable in point-by)






My sig pic is me cutting turn 6 at laguna :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Ah yes, do them all! I have not mastered any track, yet and the most days I have on one is 4 days at Buttonwillow, but that's two days in each direction. I feel I could "master" Buttonwillow config 13CW (hit all the points consistently) with 2 or 3 more days going clockwise.

Since you've done a fair amount of track days, I would hit Laguna Seca.
I would want to master a track (hitting all the right apexes, braking/acceleration points, turn-in and track-out points) before heading over to another track, though. I guess that could be personal preference. The way I'd like to do it is do maybe 5 -10 days at a certain track then move on to another one and keep alternating between all the new and old ones.
So, I guess the correct answer is: do them ALL! :biggrin

Already there! D-Force 17x8.5" rims with Hankook R-S3 255/40/17 tires. Though if I had to do it all over again, I wonder if I should have gotten D-Force/Apex 17x9" rims to better support 255 width rubber.

Do you have a set of track wheel/tires? I would look into some lightweight wheels and Ventus R-S3's for track days to maximize grip and lower unsprung weight.

Some of the car race schools do that because you're in a single-seat Formula car. CCA A+ HPDE is like that too, the instructors drive on track with you then provide feedback in class. I still learn quite a bit from instruction. Someone on bf.com asked if I can diagnose all my own mistakes. After 6 track days I could self-diagnose about 20% of my mistakes. After 14 days I think I can self-diagnose about 50% of my mistakes and need and instructor to catch the other 50%.

No, riding with a passenger is immensely different from riding solo, so doing that with a bunch of noobs on a racetrack is the last thing anyone would want. Instructors ride their own bikes, and there is no verbal communication between them and the students during the session. Normally instructors either follow or lead individual students 1-on-1 during the sesion, rotating the students between sessions, or on a as-needed basis. In between sessions is classroom time, where they go over lines, braking zones, body positioning, eye sight, and the million other things you have to do on a bike. It can be quite useful for beginners, but I find that the more track days I do, the less value I get out of these 'schools.'

[derbo]

What times are you hitting at buttonwillow CW13? That is my favorite configuration and I'm only hitting 2:12 and wanting to go fasterrrrrr

[LivesNearCostco]

Don't remember, as my last 2 days there were 1CCW, which is almost exactly like 13CW except a little longer and going the opposite direction. Plus my last day there was wet. Maybe I did 2:20 in 13CW?

My last session at BW (1CCW, wet):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDnwJe35cOg

My last 13CW session at BW (dry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfAltajknlk

[LivesNearCostco]

I've been reminded that not only is the CCA San Diego chapter doing Chuckwalla in March, but the Central California chapter is doing one day at Buttonwillow on Friday, April 13th followed by SpeedVentures at the same track April 14-15. And the Los Angeles chapter will likely be at AutoClub Speedway May 4th.

I'm pretty sure about dong one (maybe two) days at Buttonwillow next weekend with Speedventures, followed by AutoX on Feb 4th with the San Diego CCA. Any of you So Cal folks planning to do the AutoX?

[LivesNearCostco]

Today at Buttonwillow 13CW my best time was 2:20.3, which was near the top of the Blue (low intermediate) group but near the bottom of the Purple (Intermediate) groups. In the advanced run groups, the slowest times were like 2:10. I need to work on braking at the limit, heel-toe downshift, and driving on the edge of the tires limit. I should be able to drop 5 seconds with better driving I think. Another guy in a ZHP ran a 2:12, 8 seconds faster than me (same time as Derbo). He's got R-comps but I have more expensive shocks and struts, camber plates, and the Shark Injector.

Edit 1: This also means my last visit to BW 13CW, my times were probably slower than 2:20, and Derbo is a hot shoe compared to me! Here are two laps from yesterday (Jan 28). You can see the Blue run group is pretty empty, started with 12 drivers and dropped to 10 or 11. The 2nd full lap in this video (my 3rd lap of this session) is about a 2:21, one second off my best lap of the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPhcT9X7NfU

Anyone here going to be at Buttonwillow tomorrow? I'm hoping my brother-in-law visits and I can take him for a HPDE ridealong in my car.


What times are you hitting at buttonwillow CW13? That is my favorite configuration and I'm only hitting 2:12 and wanting to go fasterrrrrr

[e3thekid]

Laguna for sure. that corkscrew.... nufff said

[LivesNearCostco]

Thanks for the tip... Just did 2 days at Buttonwillow then drove up to Sunnyvale, and planning to drive back South Wednesday. I think Laguna will have to wait until later in the year. Instead I'm hoping to 2 days at Chuckwalla in March with the CCA.

Derbo: yesterday at Buttonwillow I got down to 2:17.6, so I'm slowly creeping up on your time. Some of the best Honda S2000 and non-turbo Miata drivers were in the 2:03 to 2:07 range.

Edit: My fastest lap this past weekend is lap 5 (4th hot lap) in this video. Strange that it would be the penultimate hot lap of the last session, but that's how it turned out. It starts at 9:46 into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UogM7CXqCoI

[LivesNearCostco]

I went for quantity over quality, so to speak, with 5 HPDE days and one AutoX in the last 4 weeks at So. Cal tracks--2 days at Buttonwillow, 1 at Streets of Willow, 1 at Big Willow (WSIR), and 1 at Horse Thief Mile. Strangely enough, the Willow Springs race tracks are in Rosamond, while the NorCal Thunderhill track is in Willows. (Buttonwillow Raceway is next to Buttonwillow, so at least that's straightforward.) All the Willow talk makes me think of Alyson Hannigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Rosenberg) in BtVS.

Now my tracking budget is depleted until at least mid-March and I need at least 2 new track tires, maybe 4. I have to switch to ice skating and/or swimming until then. Maybe I can sneak in one AutoX test and tune to finish off the 2 surviving track tires.

[derbo]

Looks great in that video!

I am usually into 2nd gear before the little left before the turn 2? hairpin then flatout on the pedal.
I brake for cotton corners and going up the crest, i'm on the gas FLATOUT till near bustop.
"Bus Stop" I'm usually in 3rd gear and flying through that corner!
"Riverside" I'm usually hovering around 90mph?
The left kink before lost hills i'm hovering around 100mph
Sweeper looks like you are making it into one turn. I got a tip to aim for a power pole during the first corner till you see the 2nd corners apex in the sweeper to attack that.
Flat out through the esses and then hard brakes to 3rd gear on the sunset corner.



What brakes are you using? I'm running carbotech brake pads and they massively improve my braking ability to brake later and harder.



I can't wait for another buttonwillow trackday! I was looking at my alignment settings and saw that I was running 1.2 camber in the front and 1.8 in the rear. Now that I set up to -3 -2 for the car and added toe out in the front, it should handle much more neutral.

S2000s are very very fast out of the box. One of my friends races professionally and took out another friends bone stock S2000 with RS3s on it and ran a 2:06. LOL. He also races the N1 Concepts Redline Time Attack S2000 which I believe does 1:54 at BW CW13.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylS8CGEJpEY&feature=player_embedded

Not a great video, but it does help with lines a bit.

[LivesNearCostco]

Thanks for the tips. Sounds like you're going through the fast parts 5 to 10 mph faster than I am, as I'm probably doing 80-85 through Riverside and 90 at the left kink before Phil Hill/Magic Mountain. I am flat through most of the esses but am holding back a little on that last left onto the short straight before Sunset, as I've been told that's a popular place to lose it and spin into the wall. I often over-brake or under-brake going into Sunset. When I underbrake I either have to stretch out the turn or I go off. I've gone off there at least 3 times in my 6 days of driving at Buttonwillow.

I'm running Porterfield R4-S pads which are not quite a full track pad. I like them but can only compare them to street pads.

I might be back at Buttonwillow with NASA in late April. BMW CCA Central Coast has a track day there on Friday the 13th, followed by a SpeedVentures weekend April 14-15, but I think I will be visiting Silicon Valley gthat week.... with the family... in a minivan!

[derbo]

Friday BMW CCA CC BW then followed by saturday BW CW13 with speed ventures O_O I'm excited! lol. I might plan on that :]

[LivesNearCostco]

I didn't go to the CCA event at Buttonwillow but it was raining that day in Southern California so I imagine it was wet at BW. But I did go to Buttonwillow yesterday. Had fun but don't feel like I'm improving much--it's like my driving is at a plateau with only tiny improvements here and there at each track day. Here is my 4th/last session yesterday (NASA HPDE 2). Lead instructor followed me for half lap in session 3 and another half lap in session 4 and said I need to hit apexes more consistently, turn in earlier on some turns (like Sunrise after front straight), and get on the gas sooner exiting turns.

Oh and the new GC springs do feel better in the big fast turns. Not sure if I could tell the difference in the slow tight turns. I think one of my problems is I'm not consistently putting the car at (or even really close to) the edge of the tires' traction limits. Sometimes at the apex of Sunset or Sunrise or in the sweeper I got some tire squeal, and existing buttonhook I had to carefully feed on throttle because the back end got squirmy, but most of the other turns the tires are silent or nearly silent and I didn't feel like I was anywhere near to losing control, which probably means I need to learn to push harder.

Any and all feedback would be welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKoKtcmxy5Y

[derbo]

Nice video! How are you mounting the videocamera? I'm looking to mount something for reference to improve on my lines. :)


You definitely look like you got good lines now to work on your braking and maintaining the speed! :)

[LivesNearCostco]

I stuck the video camera upside down to the inside of the sunroof glass. It is easy to turn on and off or move around (suction cup) but it's a little too high so the rear view mirror blocks the center of the field of view. If I mount it on a plastic pipe bolted to the passenger headrest, the position is decent but I have to unbuckle to turn it on and off. I might go back to mounting it on my helmet. That seems to be the best compromise so far.

Yes my lines feel good most of the time but I cannot do an entire lap and hit all the apexes correctly. And I think some mental block or limit is holding me back from going faster in many places on the track (as opposed to an equipment limitation).

[derbo]

I'm going to order a GoPro2 soon. I'll try and get some video with harry laptimer and Gopro soon on CW13 :)


Mental block? Have you rode in anyone else's car?

[LivesNearCostco]

Yes but not many laps at Buttonwillow. I caught rides with BMW CCA instructors at Thunderhill and AutoClub Speedway (Roval and infield only course), a few laps at WSIR (big track and Horse Thief Mile) with XtremeSpeed instructors, and a few at Buttonwillow with a SpeedVentures instructor and one HPDE4/TT guy. However the HPDE4/TT guy drove me around 1CCW, which is 13CW done backwards without the sweeper. So maybe just 4 or 5 laps riding with someone good at Buttonwillow in 13CW.

I think my problem is in many corners I push the car to where I think the limit is instead of where the limit actually is. Or maybe I'm pushing the car to where the limit was on stock suspension but now with the coilovers and camber plates, it's no longer the limit.

[Hornung418]

Get out to a skid pad and really find out where the limits are. I think that would improve your lap times considerably!

[LivesNearCostco]

Yeah good idea. Not sure when I'll get the next shot at a skid pad. Hopefully I'll do AutoX on May 12 and again on May 20. The May 20th one might include a small skidpad. I volunteered at a BMW CCA track day last Friday and convinced an instructor to take me for a ride in my own car in the last "A" (advanced) session, but he was so respectful of driving someone else's car that he didn't push the limits on track. That was good for safety and respect, but perhaps less than ideal for learning.