Headers - sound

[Jon D]

Well after much deliberation I have decided to keep the ZHP. I just can't justify selling her with only 41K on the clock and she's in great shape. Anything I want is upwards of 50K more like 70.. and given I put less than 5K on the car a year.. just not worth it. So more performance here I come.

The next step for me is either doing nothing or putting on headers to compliment the exhaust/intake/software I have already done. If I do it I have decided on the Active Autowerks ones as they will also fine my software as part of the install. Should add about 15 RWHP and about the same amount of torque per the Active guys and the dyno tests.

Here's the question.. how much louder will the be both inside and outside the car given the rest of the exhaust will not change. I don't mind a little more aggressive sound just don't want to be silly loud.

Any and all input appreciated.

[M0nk3y]

What exhaust do you have now?

From my experience, it will be stupid loud. You have no cats, (and I assume no resonators) and an aftermarket exhaust...they are extremely loud at all RPMs and drone like none other. That's my warning.

Now, do they sound sickkk? Indeed they do, everything comes at a cost though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTmBlrhh8-U

[zhp43867]

The Active Autowerke muffler sounds pretty damn good with headers, but it is loud. Doesn't drone. Did you keep the stock 330 piping besides the muffler? If so weld in some cats with the headers and it won't be too bad.

[UdubBadger]

headers will make any aftermarket exhaust seem like a childs toy in terms of sound.

[zhp43867]

Besides the TSE3 that is.

[Jon D]

Currently have the Active Auto exhaust. They indicated if I put in the free flow cats I loose most of the benefit of headers vs no cats.

That's my big concern, the noise and drone is exactly my concern.

Jon D. Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[zhp43867]

I drove a supercharged 323 that definitely had the AA muffler and was supposed to have AA headers. It was loud, but I don't remember drone of any sort. It wasn't running cats, I know that because it smelled horrible. As a matter of fact I might have a video of the car, it wasn't running right but lemme look...

[M0nk3y]

Currently have the Active Auto exhaust. They indicated if I put in the free flow cats I loose most of the benefit of headers vs no cats.

That's my big concern, the noise and drone is exactly my concern.

Jon D. Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

The thing is, is that most mufflers are designed for the sound that comes out when you have OEM headers. Once you remove that, you change the complete sound characteristic profile of the system, and now that drone eliminator doesn't work anymore...because you're releasing different frequencies.

[zhp43867]

Do you want the video? It's not amazing but it'll give you a feel for it I suppose. It is with headers I'm 99% sure.

[az3579]

headers will make any aftermarket exhaust seem like a childs toy in terms of sound.

I suggest you listen to this man:


Besides the TSE3 that is.

^ Because this man speaks the truth. :biggrin

I can actually directly compare the TSE3 to an OEM exhaust with just headers, because I paid Kris a visit today. His exhaust is stock, but he has headers. I have stock headers but a TSE3 full catback. He says my exhaust is louder, and I agree.

BUT,
The OEM exhaust with headers adds a large amount of sound. When you put your foot down, you can HEAR it; it's almost as loud as my exhaust at WOT. When you're not pushing it, however, you had an added amount of sound but no drone at cruising speed. Kris says that below say 1000rpm, you will get some drone, but nobody cruises at 1k rpm anyway, so that's irrelevant. When we went out onto the highway, if you were to just cruise, it would be perfectly comfortable.

I don't know how it would be with your exhaust though, Jon.

[zhp43867]

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/fc64qs/4)

Excuse my obnoxious commentary, I swear I don't sound that young in person. Darn iPhone mic. :eeps

And no I'm not talking to myself, my friend is the one who films the back exhaust but I cut out the irrelevant stuff!

Btw I went to see this car for sale for next to nothing at a semi-local dealership, and what a weird car it was. UUC/Wilwood BBK, LTW5 Wheels, AA Supercharger, Manual Swap, AA muffler, but some trim was missing, alternator was busted, post cat 02s were out, some contacts in the supercharger box had corroded so it wouldn't go full throttle unless it was on open loop. Oh boy, glad I walked away from this one.

[UdubBadger]

I suggest you listen to this man:



^ Because this man speaks the truth. :biggrin

I can actually directly compare the TSE3 to an OEM exhaust with just headers, because I paid Kris a visit today. His exhaust is stock, but he has headers. I have stock headers but a TSE3 full catback. He says my exhaust is louder, and I agree.

BUT,
The OEM exhaust with headers adds a large amount of sound. When you put your foot down, you can HEAR it; it's almost as loud as my exhaust at WOT. When you're not pushing it, however, you had an added amount of sound but no drone at cruising speed. Kris says that below say 1000rpm, you will get some drone, but nobody cruises at 1k rpm anyway, so that's irrelevant. When we went out onto the highway, if you were to just cruise, it would be perfectly comfortable.

I don't know how it would be with your exhaust though, Jon.

was going off a general theory but I will give that thing a listen for sure now that you say that.

[UdubBadger]

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/fc64qs/4)


wow... :drool

[S85FTW]

my headers stock zhp exhaust driving:

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/krisgt30/330ci/?action=view&current=VID-20110925-00005.mp4

[zhp43867]

The Active Autowerke mufflers for the E46, and for the E36 M3 for that matter sound absolutely amazing in my opinion. If weight is not on your mind (they don't save as much weight as say, the Magnaflow), I can hardly think of another choice!

Edit SH330CI: Sounds pretty good! I can definitely hear some resemblance to the E46 M3 sound there, do you like the M3 sound? Do you like the rasp?

[S85FTW]

It definitely isnt as raspy as the M3, but it does scream when you get on it, especially from 5500rpms on. At highway maintaining speed, no added sound, the minute you get on the throttle you notice a difference. Cold starts are LOUD. 1-2k rpms a little drone.

[Jon D]

my headers stock zhp exhaust driving:

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/krisgt30/330ci/?action=view&current=VID-20110925-00005.mp4

My current set up makes at least this much sound.. so if that's what headers add would probably not notice much inside the car.


What exhaust do you have now?

From my experience, it will be stupid loud. You have no cats, (and I assume no resonators) and an aftermarket exhaust...they are extremely loud at all RPMs and drone like none other. That's my warning.

Now, do they sound sickkk? Indeed they do, everything comes at a cost though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTmBlrhh8-U

That has a raspier sound than the AA exhaust with stock headers and K&N. but would probably be very close to what I would end up with.


View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/fc64qs/4)

Excuse my obnoxious commentary, I swear I don't sound that young in person. Darn iPhone mic. :eeps

And no I'm not talking to myself, my friend is the one who films the back exhaust but I cut out the irrelevant stuff!

Btw I went to see this car for sale for next to nothing at a semi-local dealership, and what a weird car it was. UUC/Wilwood BBK, LTW5 Wheels, AA Supercharger, Manual Swap, AA muffler, but some trim was missing, alternator was busted, post cat 02s were out, some contacts in the supercharger box had corroded so it wouldn't go full throttle unless it was on open loop. Oh boy, glad I walked away from this one.

Thanks for the link as well.. gives an inside the car perspective.. now if all the doors and hood had been shut.. ooh well..

Thanks to all contributors.. trying to figure out if the extra HP from opening up the system are worth the extra noise. Don't commute in the car but it still needs to be reasonable to drive especially with the top down. Don't want to have the exhaust so load I can't hear the stereo. :)

[Jon D]

Oh and found this link which is full AA exhaust set up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGS-YyFl6kk&context=C3d4dfb6ADOEgsToPDskJPqiGvzK7_mX9wPLiEQkET

[Smolck]

I installed a set of Bimmerbrakes headers on a 330ci a few weeks ago. It has no resonators and a magnaflow. It was surprisingly quiet at idle and driving normal. Anything above 3 grand you start to hear it. And it is crazy loud IMO at WOT. But it does sound good.

What I can't stand about it is when you sit still idling it wreaks of exhaust smell, and if you get behind that car while driving, you will choke on the fumes. I don't think that is very nice to other drivers.

For a fine ZHP with only 41k miles, I would look elsewhere for power. You can get a AA tune, CAI and pulleys for less than the AA headers alone and they are much easier to install. Plus AA will make the tune for the specific mods. I bet you will get close to the same feel in the "butt dyno" AND your car won't smell like a 1970 Ford pickup.

[Jon D]

I installed a set of Bimmerbrakes headers on a 330ci a few weeks ago. It has no resonators and a magnaflow. It was surprisingly quiet at idle and driving normal. Anything above 3 grand you start to hear it. And it is crazy loud IMO at WOT. But it does sound good.

What I can't stand about it is when you sit still idling it wreaks of exhaust smell, and if you get behind that car while driving, you will choke on the fumes. I don't think that is very nice to other drivers.

For a fine ZHP with only 41k miles, I would look elsewhere for power. You can get a AA tune, CAI and pulleys for less than the AA headers alone and they are much easier to install. Plus AA will make the tune for the specific mods. I bet you will get close to the same feel in the "butt dyno" AND your car won't smell like a 1970 Ford pickup.

Already done everything except the pulleys.. so for me it's either do nothing else or headers and/or forced induction to the ZHP. The other option which is where I was 6 months ago is sell the car, pick up an Audi S5 vert or a used 997S vert but both of those options are north of 60K which is why I'm back to looking at ZHP options.

[Smolck]

Already done everything except the pulleys.. so for me it's either do nothing else or headers and/or forced induction to the ZHP. The other option which is where I was 6 months ago is sell the car, pick up an Audi S5 vert or a used 997S vert but both of those options are north of 60K which is why I'm back to looking at ZHP options.

I notice in your sig line you haven't listed any suspension mods. Why not spend your money where it REALLY counts and add a set of sway bars or coilovers? Straight line speed isn't what the ZHP is all about as you well know.

[mr hish]

i have headers installed on my zhp but i have installed on the zhp exaust and they pretty good very similar to an m3 sound

[Jon D]

I notice in your sig line you haven't listed any suspension mods. Why not spend your money where it REALLY counts and add a set of sway bars or coilovers? Straight line speed isn't what the ZHP is all about as you well know.

Around here in SFL we have so few curves I haven't felt the need yet to do suspension. However on 95 at times would like more HP/torque. I do have my suspension mods planed so when parts need replacing will upgrade rather than replace.

Jon D. Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[bullfrogs_M3]

Honestly, i'm almost afraid to get some headers now. I really enjoy the sound of my full TSE3 setup. It is subtle at low RPM's (in the neighborhood) and very stated at higher RPM's or under load. Adding headers sounds like it will really change the dynamic of that and add a lot more sound to it, which I don't really want.

Sigh........oh well, I guess i'll hold off on getting some for now, maybe one day.

[S85FTW]

I personally would only pair up my headers with a very tame exhaust (eg. Rogue Ikon). TSE3 and headers would be way too loud for a daily.

[Hornung418]

TSE3 is already at the track limit of 95 dB...So adding headers would be retarded-loud!

if you're gonna get headers I think you should try and replicate SuperSprint's setup as best as possible.

Looks like ebay has some SuperSprint catback parts for about $1300 so add an extra 100 for the ebay headers and you're set!

[az3579]

TSE3 is already at the track limit of 95 dB...So adding headers would be retarded-loud!


Oh no, please don't say that... Lime Rock's limit is 87dB...

Where did you get that figure from?


Sent from my iPhone 4S from Tapatalk

[Hornung418]

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/SAEJ1169_TSE3.gif

[M0nk3y]

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/SAEJ1169_TSE3.gif

Depends where exactly that measurement is taken. I think that's right next to the exhaust.

Most places, like SCCA, record at 100 feet away. I've heard alot of cars that barely went over out 95 dB limit at WOT and they ring ear drums.

[midlandtech]

What is typical cost and install time/process for headers?


~Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zhp43867]

I would have to disagree with those that call the TSE3 subtle. It sounds beautiful from the outside, but it is not quiet at all. It does not drone, but it'll set off alarms in a parking garage. Furthermore I really don't think it sounded very good inside the car, it sounded way better outside of the car, and I drive my car for me, not everyone else. I sold my TSE3. I'd recommend the Magnaflow or Borla, headers or not over the TSE3.

That video I posted was a much better sound than the TSE3 in the car.

Put it this way, your car will easily be the loudest in the average parking lot if you have the TSE3. A stock M3 is much quieter.

I know I won't get much love as most people with E46s love the TSE3, but here's my review:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=728507&highlight=

[az3579]

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/tse3/SAEJ1169_TSE3.gif

That page just says it meets the requirements, doesn't say that the decibel level is actually 95. I used this info in my purchase decision.
Thanks for that regardless, Justin.


Depends where exactly that measurement is taken. I think that's right next to the exhaust.

Most places, like SCCA, record at 100 feet away. I've heard alot of cars that barely went over out 95 dB limit at WOT and they ring ear drums.

At our local auto-x club, we take sound measurements at 75ft, and the limit is I believe 90dB. The lot is also right next to a building, so some sound reverberates as well.

At Lime Rock, I think they now measure at random places, no particular distance away. That is a big problem for those who are loud up close but not so loud from a distance.

I know a few people who have obnoxiously loud exhausts and they still don't even get close to the sound limit, so there doesn't seem to be much to worry about.


I would have to disagree with those that call the TSE3 subtle. It sounds beautiful from the outside, but it is not quiet at all. It does not drone, but it'll set off alarms in a parking garage. Furthermore I really don't think it sounded very good inside the car, it sounded way better outside of the car, and I drive my car for me, not everyone else. I sold my TSE3. I'd recommend the Magnaflow or Borla, headers or not over the TSE3.

That video I posted was a much better sound than the TSE3 in the car.

Put it this way, your car will easily be the loudest in the average parking lot if you have the TSE3. A stock M3 is much quieter.

I know I won't get much love as most people with E46s love the TSE3, but here's my review:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=728507&highlight=

Thanks for your review. I was getting hard pressed to find someone who didn't like the sound, inside and out, so it's nice to see some opposing views.

[zhp43867]

Well to be fair I've never heard another one, and what I think of mine is exactly opposite to what most people think of the exhaust, so maybe I really did get a defective one. For example, most think it is mellow down low and screams up top, mine was loud down low and fell silent near redline.

[S85FTW]

I uploaded a better video of what my car sounds like with the headers and the racing dynamics cold air intake, put the volume all the way up to get the full effect of what it sounds like inside the car. Had passenger window down. Rolled it up at 3:08 of the vid and tapped the gas with the window up at 3:13 so you can hear what it sounds like @6th gear on the highway. When cruising after that you cant tell its even there. Should be a good video for those of you on the fence about getting headers.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/krisgt30/th_c388589a.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/krisgt30/?action=view&current=c388589a.mp4)

[UdubBadger]

not bad

[Jon D]

Thanks for that last clip, not near as noisy inside as I thought it would be.. wonder how much louder it would be in the vert? Probably a bit, as everything else is more noticeable..

[S85FTW]

No problem, I am sure in a vert it will be louder but not by much, especially at cruising speeds on the highway you wont hear anything until you get on the gas vs stock. I too, was hesistant to get headers on my car until I realized that an M3 out of the factory essentially has headers (but cats placed further down the exhaust) and sounds pretty tame. Only really loud part of the headers is cold start and from a dead stop to 1500 rpms.

[derbo]

No problem, I am sure in a vert it will be louder but not by much, especially at cruising speeds on the highway you wont hear anything until you get on the gas vs stock. I too, was hesistant to get headers on my car until I realized that an M3 out of the factory essentially has headers (but cats placed further down the exhaust) and sounds pretty tame. Only really loud part of the headers is cold start and from a dead stop to 1500 rpms.


M3 with cats down further only applies to European cars. All US models have cats right on the exhaust manifold.

[UdubBadger]

I installed a set of Bimmerbrakes headers on a 330ci a few weeks ago. It has no resonators and a magnaflow. It was surprisingly quiet at idle and driving normal. Anything above 3 grand you start to hear it. And it is crazy loud IMO at WOT. But it does sound good.

What I can't stand about it is when you sit still idling it wreaks of exhaust smell, and if you get behind that car while driving, you will choke on the fumes. I don't think that is very nice to other drivers.

For a fine ZHP with only 41k miles, I would look elsewhere for power. You can get a AA tune, CAI and pulleys for less than the AA headers alone and they are much easier to install. Plus AA will make the tune for the specific mods. I bet you will get close to the same feel in the "butt dyno" AND your car won't smell like a 1970 Ford pickup.


I'm looking into the bimmerbrakes headers. How is the quality?

[danewilson77]

I'm looking into the bimmerbrakes headers. How is the quality?

He banned himself. Hit him up on Bimmerfest.

[webster]

He banned himself. Hit him up on Bimmerfest.

mafia don't mess around!

[danewilson77]

mafia don't mess around!

No....I mean...he literally banned himself. We did not. He is still considered a member here.

[Hornung418]

His self-righteous attitude got in the way of everything.

No matter, Headers are fine with the stock exhaust...Anything other than stock is going to result in some necessary fine tuning in order to keep the noise level you find acceptable in check.

[UdubBadger]

thanks DW, will do.


Justin I'm not worried bout sound.... I'm looking to justify spending $150 over ebay headers if they are a bit better quality made. I head the ebay ones sometimes need some muscle to make them fit and have a lot of rough edges.

[Hornung418]

Seth, you may want to check out this thread here: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14335035&highlight=headers#post14335035

BimmerBrakes old headers were seriously crap in a box. Anthony is working directly with the Chinese company for the redesign. They will be out in the summer if everything goes to plan. I have decided to wait for the first reviews of these to make my purchase. The only true quality headers are the Super Sprints and the Techniks (which are very hard to find).

[UdubBadger]

cool thanks thats exactly what I was looking to find out.