VANOS - Just seals, or also do rattle fix?

[Stu]

I don't have any VANOS rattle, but since I am taking a part the VANOS to do the seals, would it be worth it to do the rattle fix for an extra $60? I heard it happens more often on ZHP cars. What do you all think?

[Newjack]

If you have the money, and your already doing the new seals, you might as well. I don't think my VANOS rattles but I will be doing the anti rattle kit along with the seals as soon as I place my order. It certainly wont hurt anything.

[danewilson77]

Dhu eet.

Recognize it's $60 for the seal....but...the hidden costs are:

1. Impact gun
2. Compressor
3. Softjaw vice liners.

***1 and 2 can be combined if you buy a battery operated impact driver.

If you already have this stuff.....disregard.

If you don't have this stuff....make a trip up to my shop and we'll knock it out.

[kayger12]

I buck conventional wisdom on this:

If you're car hasn't developed the rattle yet, it most likely won't. I would save the money.

It seems ZHPs either do, or don't. I can't remember reading a case of someone who had a rattle develop 100k miles in...

[Hornung418]

I buck conventional wisdom on this:

If you're car hasn't developed the rattle yet, it most likely won't. I would save the money.

It seems ZHPs either do, or don't. I can't remember reading a case of someone who had a rattle develop 100k miles in...
+1

I would buy the seals and the rattle kit. But when you pull the pistons re-install the VANOS pistons on the cams and check for axial play. If you don't have any play, don't install the rattle kit, resell for face-value, and continue installation.

[johnrando]

I buck conventional wisdom on this:

If you're car hasn't developed the rattle yet, it most likely won't. I would save the money.

It seems ZHPs either do, or don't. I can't remember reading a case of someone who had a rattle develop 100k miles in...

Really, that would be cool. But what if you put new seals in, couldn't they develop the rattle?

[kayger12]

Really, that would be cool. But what if you put new seals in, couldn't they develop the rattle?

I don't think the seal change would do anything to induce the rattle.

I'm sure it's possible-- I'm just thinking that in all the cases where I've seen this discussed, people either have the rattle very early on in the life of the car (such as mine which had it clearly at 45k) or they don't get it at all (such as the many on here with 100k+ ZHPs with no rattle).

[echo46]

If you can afford it, do the rattle kit. I think it's worth it in the long run.

[johnrando]

OK. No rattle for me at 50K so I'm hoping that's a good sign. I'm thinking the seals need to be replaced though.

[kayger12]

OK. No rattle for me at 50K so I'm hoping that's a good sign. I'm thinking the seals need to be replaced though.

You're getting close to when the VCG fails, John. I'd just wait until you have to do that and then bang out the seals.

[johnrando]

You're getting close to when the VCG fails, John. I'd just wait until you have to do that and then bang out the seals.

OK, good advice.

[webster]

i'm coming up on 54k and i have a noticeable rattle. my plan is to buy the Dr Vanos kit, pay a shop for labor, and send old Vanos unit back for core refund. not the cheapest option, but simple and easy.

[echo46]

What Kager said, that's what I did. I didn't have the rattle but had some of the seal symptoms so I just went ahead and did the VCG, seals and anti rattle kit. Also, changed the oil.

[johnrando]

i'm coming up on 54k and i have a noticeable rattle. my plan is to buy the Dr Vanos kit, pay a shop for labor, and send old Vanos unit back for core refund. not the cheapest option, but simple and easy.

There was some question if Dr. V uses anti-rattle or not.

[danewilson77]

Really, that would be cool. But what if you put new seals in, couldn't they develop the rattle?

Nope.

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[danewilson77]

And I guess the broader question is why does the rattle developed in some cars and not in others?

When I had the old spacers out I took some measurements with my calipers.

INSIDE AND OUTSIDE DIA = SAME

THICKNESS = A FEW THOUSANDS THICKER ON THE NEW SPACERS

I guess the added thickness is what would make that axial play be near zero.

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[echo46]

When I replaced the seals on the e36,I really noticed how flat and brittle they had become, however, when I replaced the seals on the ZHP they seemed to be in pretty good shape. I attribute that to the age difference of the cars. I still am happy I did the beisan refresh on the ZHP though.

[danewilson77]

When I replaced the seals on the e36,I really noticed how flat and brittle they had become, however, when I replaced the seals on the ZHP they seemed to be in pretty good shape. I attribute that to the age difference of the cars. I still am happy I did the beisan refresh on the ZHP though.

Meant "spacers" above... Not seals.

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[webster]

There was some question if Dr. V uses anti-rattle or not.

from their website:


"Fully cleaned and rebuilt vanos unit with new seals and O-rings installed. In addition, we rebuild the internal bearings and reduce the tolerances to eliminate the 'marbles in a tin can' noises commonly found on the 'ZHP' package E46 models. The kit also includes a new vanos gasket and crush washers. Don't settle for half a rebuild, get the complete package with our dual vanos kit. "

i take that to mean they do the anti-rattle kit as well...

[danewilson77]

from their website:



i take that to mean they do the anti-rattle kit as well...

Yesireeeee

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[WOLFN8TR]

If you're car hasn't developed the rattle yet, it most likely won't. I would save the money.
It seems ZHPs either do, or don't. I can't remember reading a case of someone who had a rattle develop 100k miles in.
I'm just thinking that in all the cases where I've seen this discussed, people either have the rattle very early on in the life of the car (such as mine which had it clearly at 45k) or they don't get it at all (such as the many on here with 100k+ ZHPs with no rattle).

I have 101,488 miles on the ZHP with NO rattle. My VCG just started leaking up front by the VANOS. I'm to OCD not to do the seals beings I'm already in there. Not to mention my luck won't allow me to get away with not doing them either.

How is it all you guys have such LOW mileage ZHP's! Oh well....

:hawaiian

[webster]

just found out Dr. Vanos is based out of Austin, TX. nice. always happy to support local businesses.

[danewilson77]

I have 101,488 miles on the ZHP with NO rattle. My VCG just started leaking up front by the VANOS. I'm to OCD not to do the seals beings I'm already in there. Not to mention my luck won't allow me to get away with not doing them either.

How is it all you guys have such LOW mileage ZHP's! Oh well....

:hawaiian

So...are you skipping anti-rattle kit?

[WOLFN8TR]

Nope doing the whole sha bang.

[echo46]

Good luck, not that difficult, just take your time and follow the directions.

[danewilson77]

Nope doing the whole sha bang.

K

Do you have vernier calipers?

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[WOLFN8TR]

K
Do you have vernier calipers?
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Beings I've never heard of them probably not. I ordered the VCG and all the goodies from ECS on 11/27 and still have not received them yet. I guess I have some time to order the Vanos kit and the calipers. The Vanos orings I get from here correct? http://www.beisansystems.com/products

[danewilson77]

Beings I've never heard of them probably not. I ordered the VCG and all the goodies from ECS on 11/27 and still have not received them yet. I guess I have some time to order the Vanos kit and the calipers. The Vanos orings I get from here correct? http://www.beisansystems.com/products

No worries. I was just going to have you pull some measurements off your old spacers.

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[JohnnyGraphic]

I've put lust a little less than 500 miles post Vanos seals and I can definitely tell the difference. Prior to the seals, the low end was a little sluggish. The engine wouldn't come alive until about 4k-ish or so. I notice that the throttle response is so much better at low RPM's. Just more ooomph in the low end.

Just my 2 cents. Anyone doing a VCG should pay the extra $65 for the VANOS seals and just do it. It's seriously not that much harder. You've done most of the work by doing the VCG.

I was initially intimidated to do it, but glad I did. Almost opted for the full on Dr. Vanos thing. The vanos rattle on the other hand, probably could have done it, but I didn't have the rattle or the extra tools/vise grip/impact tool etc. I would be seriously pissed if I developed a rattle. Oh well. At least I know how to tear it all apart. :)

Johnny

[Stu]

Yeah, I'm excited to tear it all apart. The instructions are phenomenal, no worries there at all. This might be a spring/pre-summer project I'm thinking.

[WOLFN8TR]

I was just going to have you pull some measurements off your old spacers.

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Hey Dane I'm doing my Vanos rebuild now. I'm putting in the anti rattle kit what do you need measured?

[danewilson77]

Hey Dane I'm doing my Vanos rebuild now. I'm putting in the anti rattle kit what do you need measured?

The thickness of the old rings.

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[WOLFN8TR]

The thickness of the old rings.

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Old 7.5mm, Beisan 7.28mm

[kayger12]

Old 7.5mm, Beisan 7.28mm

Wasn't expecting that.

Do the Beisans have a larger diameter?

[WOLFN8TR]

Nope everything else is exactly the same.

[LivesNearCostco]

Isn't that the purpose, thinner rings reduce axial play so they don't rattle?

[danewilson77]

I still have my old seals. Will measure again tomorrow. I thought thicker seals would reduce axial play.

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[kayger12]

Yeah, I thought they would be thicker than stock.

[LivesNearCostco]

I just re-read the Beisan Systems double VANOS rattle fix instructions (http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/double_vanos_rattle_procedure.htm). There is a bearing sandwich made by two big washers on either side of the center ring. The two bearings and one center washer fit inside the ring. When the ring is too thick, the bearings (and presumably center washer) rattle about between the two big washers on either side of the ring. The Beisan rings are thinner to squeeze the bearing sandwich, giving them less axial play so less rattle.

If after assembly the piston bearings are too tight, you sand the (original) center washer to make it thinner so the bearings have room to turn. If after assembly with the new rings the bearings are still too loose, you sand the new Beisan rings to make them even thinner, squeezing the bearing-washer-bearing sandwich tighter to reduce axial play. I wonder if Beisan could have sold one thicker center washer instead of a thinner ring to fix the rattle?

[WOLFN8TR]

Thanks for the info that makes sense. I didn't have the rattle before doing this and I checked the axial play on the old ones before installing the kit. There was some play but not bad. Much better with the kit. My orings were shot, they were so dam hard! It's sad BMW won't address this problem.

I started last year and finished it this year....weird.

[nk_zhp]

I wonder if Beisan could have sold one thicker center washer instead of a thinner ring to fix the rattle?

I asked this very question from them a while ago and the answer made total sense. It turns out that the manufacturing tolerances of the middle washer are pretty tight, with essentially no variation between one car to another, while the the ring tolerances seem to be less precise which explains the difference it how much rattle one car has vs. another. As a result they take that variation out of the picture by replacing the part with more variation.

[kayger12]

I just re-read the Beisan Systems double VANOS rattle fix instructions (http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/double_vanos_rattle_procedure.htm). There is a bearing sandwich made by two big washers on either side of the center ring. The two bearings and one center washer fit inside the ring. When the ring is too thick, the bearings (and presumably center washer) rattle about between the two big washers on either side of the ring. The Beisan rings are thinner to squeeze the bearing sandwich, giving them less axial play so less rattle.

If after assembly the piston bearings are too tight, you sand the (original) center washer to make it thinner so the bearings have room to turn. If after assembly with the new rings the bearings are still too loose, you sand the new Beisan rings to make them even thinner, squeezing the bearing-washer-bearing sandwich tighter to reduce axial play. I wonder if Beisan could have sold one thicker center washer instead of a thinner ring to fix the rattle?

Great info. Thanks.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[WOLFN8TR]

I found out my torque wrench does not work on reverse threads. Luckily I didn't break the Vanos bolt.

[LivesNearCostco]

Oooohhh.. good to know. Thanks!


I asked this very question from them a while ago and the answer made total sense. It turns out that the manufacturing tolerances of the middle washer are pretty tight, with essentially no variation between one car to another, while the the ring tolerances seem to be less precise which explains the difference it how much rattle one car has vs. another. As a result they take that variation out of the picture by replacing the part with more variation.

[danewilson77]

Old 7.5mm, Beisan 7.28mm

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/2004%20Imola%20DSLR/VANOSMeasurements.jpg

[WOLFN8TR]

Pretty close to mine. I never had the rattle but the ZHP does run much better now.