Grinding Noise at Start up

[HokieZHP]

So recently I've noticed that on cold start ups, there's a grinding noise that lasts about a second or so right as the engine fires up. Any ideas?

There's also a ticking noise as the car is idling.

[danewilson77]

Maybe a pulley? Use two man method to try and isolate noise.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[M0nk3y]

Video would be helpful.

My friend here was getting a knocking noise at start-up...it was the clutch fan that stuck out a little after it sat awhile.

Here is his noise.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v323/kimokeo/?action=view&current=video-2011-09-11-12-01-00.mp4

[HokieZHP]

Alright I'll try and get a video of it for you guys. All I have is my phone though so hopefully it'll do.

[llll1l1ll]

Although this has probably already been addressed, if your car is a manual, it will not have a clutch fan.

[kayger12]

Could be the starter going bad.

Droid X. Tapatalk. Use it.

[echo46]

I agree with Dane, I would start with listening to each of the pulleys. The garden hose method is pretty effective just be very very careful.

[HokieZHP]

The starter going bad could definitely be possible since it's a grinding sound sort of like if you hold the starter on after the car starts.

[kayger12]

The starter going bad could definitely be possible since it's a grinding sound sort of like if you hold the starter on after the car starts.

Yep-- I remember someone on here-- maybe David (Mtnmn) having a problem where the starter was staying engaged for a second after the engine started.
Was giving him that kind of sound.

I'll do some digging and see if I can find the thread.

[kayger12]

Bingo.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?1067-Cold-Start-Noise

Edit: Ok-- I thought it was the starter, but the resolution wasn't in that thread. Pretty sure that was his issue, though.


I'll keep digging.

[kayger12]

PMd David.

[Mtnman]

Got ur pm keith. Sorry, but im no help here! I thought it was my starter, but the noise jjust went away and has not. Come back. Could still mean starter, but I have no resolution yet. Sorry hokie.

Edit....it could be a cold weather vs hot weather for my car. My old posts were in february. Now that cold weather is here again, ill let you know if it comes back.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

[kayger12]

Good deal, David.

Thanks for getting back so fast.

You da man.

[HokieZHP]

The noise on mine has just started showing up as it has gotten colder outside. I never heard it over the summer. I'm still trying to find time to get a video. The problem is that it only happens when the engine is cold, so in the mornings, which is when I'm normally rushing to class.

[HokieZHP]

Got a quick video of the ticking sound tonight. You can sort of make out the sound over the engine noise. It sounds like it's coming from under the engine cover and not from the pulleys... Yes it's an iphone video since it's all I have unless I can grab my gf's point and shoot.

I zoomed on the engine since I was kind of locating the noise and shooting the video so I was leaning in on the engine. You get the idea of the sound though. I tried to point it out also.

Any ideas?

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq109/maxx919/th_631ac596.jpg (http://s438.photobucket.com/albums/qq109/maxx919/?action=view&current=631ac596.mp4)

[echo46]

Did you refresh the vanos yet. Could be the vanos. Other possibilities include lifter chatter or even a worn out DISA valve. Listen closely to see if the noise is coming from the vanos cover area, if so, get the beisan anti rattle and seal kits. To check DISA, unplug DISA valve and see if the ticking noise goes away.

[HokieZHP]

I thought it might be the vanos but in the video I point out that the ticking sounds like it's coming from under the engine cover about halfway back which makes me think it isn't vanos-related.

[HokieZHP]

Any other ideas? Can you guys make out the sound in the video?

[llll1l1ll]

Although I haven't heard your video yet, I did read your recent posts in the oil thread. If you're getting a grinding noise at startup, I'm sure that red oil light coming on has something to do with it.

[HokieZHP]

Well, it's 45 degrees out this morning here in Blacksburg so I'll see if I'm getting a grinding noise still on start up when I go to class here in a few minutes. I'll report back

[danewilson77]

Word...good luck

[HokieZHP]

So when I started it up this morning, the grinding noise was still there, however it didn't last as long as before. It was only a blip instead of a second or so long grinding.

[danewilson77]

Mmmm...still not feeling it.

[llll1l1ll]

Is it sort of like a hissing/grinding metal noise? Somewhat high pitched?

[HokieZHP]

It sounds very similar to the sound that occurs when you hold the starter on after the engine has started.

From what I can see, after adding oil to my car, the sound has gone away. Granted it hasn't been as cold as it was when the sound was happening but for now it's gone/minimized.

[llll1l1ll]

I think it may have had something to do with your oil level. The only sound I could pick out in your video was the one I mentioned in my previous post.

My E30 would make a whirring-type sound when the starter solenoid wouldn't fully disengage after the engine turned over. It was frightening but would only last a second.

[GT172I]

:lurk This is relevant to my interests....

I've got almost the exact same problem you described (not the ticking part just the brief noise at startup). A high pitched noise almost like a squeal that does sound like you described holding the starter too long. It is intermittent like you've described too, only when the engine is cold but not every time.

I've changed all belts and pulleys, and then the tensioner thinking maybe it was the belt slipping on startup.

Took apart and cleaned the DISA and ICV. Both were dirty but functioning fine. Tightened up the DISA flapper while I had it apart too.

Found a crack in the upper intake boot that I thought might be the cause (cold stiff shrunken rubber allowed air to whistle in the crack when the engine shook on startup but softened and expanded when warm closing the crack more???). Replaced it but noise is still there....sometimes....

Tried firing it up briefly with all belts off (first start on cold morning) and it still did it so I'm thinking the only thing left that makes sense to me is something with the starter itself going along with that sound description. Haven't made a video or researched the starter much but that looks like the next course of action for me.

Let me know if you track it down as it seems like the same issue

[HokieZHP]

My upper intake boot has a slight crack where the vacuum line taps in but I don't think that's the cause.

I'll update if the sound gets more consistent.

[llll1l1ll]

Did you say it was just a brief squeal, Hokie?

[HokieZHP]

Yes it is very brief. A second or less. It happened again today. 60* outside and rainy so not very cold. Still stumped as to what it could be...

[GT172I]

It's about the same here, by cold I just mean has engine is at ambient temp (~60-80). Has never happened that I've noticed when engine is at/near operating temp, even 30 minutes after shutdown.

[GT172I]

Oh also, you should definitely repair/replace the cracked boot. Since the crack is after the MAF, the engine isn't accounting for the extra airflow, however minute, and will be running lean ie not at full potential. My mpg avg jumped up 2 mpg since swapping for a snazzy new boot a week ago.

[HokieZHP]

If I switch boots I will most likely get a silicone boot so see if it helps fix my smushed boot issue from my aFe intake. Anyone here have any experience with the silicone boots?

And yes it only happens when the engine is cold.

[llll1l1ll]

I think it might be your starter solenoid failing to disengage in time. It sounds a lot like a problem I had in my E30.

[GT172I]

I think it might be your starter solenoid failing to disengage in time. It sounds a lot like a problem I had in my E30.

I think this is exactly it unfortunately. Been researching a bit today and have found several instances where this was the case and was fixed by replacing the starter. Most unfortunate is the ridiculousness required to actually change the starter (~7 hrs if things go well). It's on the firewall side of the engine on top of the tranny but only partly accessible from the top, some from the bottom, and one bolt with ~2-3 feet of wobbly extensions and u-joints with an inverse torx socket (E12 it seems). :facepalm Not only that but there are two types of starter for our cars: ones with threaded mounting holes and some without. I haven't determined yet a way to find out which one without actual inspection (ie taking it all apart). There is a good DIY walkthrough on E46f that helped confirm the issue (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=732743)


I had my starter replaced while I was under warranty. My symptom was a loud squeal for about a second right at startup. It would only do it when the motor was cold and it was more prone to occurring if the ambient temp. was colder.




I've been lurking around here for too long without saying thanks - but this starter thread saved my bacon.

A real "thank you" because I was ready to start pulling the intake manifold to pull the starter out. But going at from beneath was the trick. Still a pain for sure but definitely the preferred method.

Just an FYI, my starter problems were not the typical ones. As a matter of fact, I can't find any record of anyone else running into it in an E46. In my case, the car would start fine but as I backed down the driveway (a decline) when I would get to the steepest part this really loud rattling racket started and varied with engine speed. It sounded like marbles in the oil pan. After sitting there for 30 minutes running through all of the variables, it finally hit me. The starter gear was hitting the flywheel. Soooo....when I finally got the starter out I had to confirm my suspicions and sure enough - the spring that holds the starter gear in place until the bendix throws it to the flywheel had broken. The gear would just slide back and forth on the shaft. Thats the first time I've ever seen that happen. But maybe some poor soul will come upon this thread with a random google search and find the answer to a similar problem. I say that because its a weird one in my book.

Thanks again for the post though OP. Great job and REALLY appreciated. :thumbup

I think this is actually somewhat common. I know a couple of other people who have had this but manifesting itself as a start up screech on cold days, basically the spring doesn't retract quickly enough.


I was just helping a friend do this on his 330Ci 6 speed. We definitely did not have to take off the manifold. Everything was pretty much the same as newtuner explains (thanks for the write up!). We got the new one in with the wires on it, but then realized that it didn't have threaded holes like the old one did!

Ugh this thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116232) isn't very encouraging about the job either "i am a tech for bmw and i will tell you that it is a HARD job. i had to do mine and i wanted to kill some one but it will cost you to have some one else do it."

[GT172I]

Well it looks like I'm going to have to tackle this after all. The noise is happening a lot more frequently now and I'm worried is on it's way out. Got a new bosch unit on the way and I'll start the job next week when I'll have a spare car for the week while mine is being dismantled in the garage. Hopefully being able to go slowly without having to worry about being done in one night will help immensely. I'll try to take a bunch of pictures to since that always helps when researching DIY's. Wish me luck :fingerscrossed

Oh and btw apparently you can barely see the back of the starter (where you would see nuts if your car had the un-threaded version, torx bolt goes straight into the thicker flange on the newer design) through the gap below the DISA around the intake boot and thankfully the BMW gods have blessed me with a threaded starter flange. Through my research I've discovered a photo of the BMW design engineer who came up with this starter design (from BF) : 2439

[danewilson77]

Good luck, and looking forward to reading your DIY here. Thanks for the update.

[echo46]

yea, i'm in for the diy and pics. good luck.

[HokieZHP]

Good luck! I'm SOL here at school as I don't have any of the tools or equipment I'd need to change the starter. Bimmerworld is only 25 mins away but I'm not sure if they would work on my car. I don't know if they're a shop or not. I don't want to be stuck with a bad starter but I hope it can hold out until winter break. THen again I don't know how bad the situation is...

[GT172I]

Well I got it done without too much fuss.

Info to be found http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?5371-DIY-Starter-Replacement-Not-as-horrible-as-it-seems

[LivesNearCostco]

HokieZHP: I can't help you if you need to replace the started, but I listened to your video and the ticking sounds like it might be a valve or lifter noise. Especially since you say it's coming from back towards the middle of the engine and not the front where the pulleys and VANOS are. I get lifter tick sometimes during AutoX, and I make it go away by overfilling the oil by 1/2 quart. That is fill the oil to the "full" mark on the dipstick then pour in another 1/3 to 1/2 quart. Then rev engine to 4,000 RPM and if it's lifter tick, it might go away.

[HokieZHP]

Thanks for the info! How can I get rid of the tick?

[danewilson77]

Thanks for the info! How can I get rid of the tick?

You mean aside of overfilling oil slightly, correct?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[HokieZHP]

Yes, besides that, like a permanent solution to the problem.

[LivesNearCostco]

Traditional folk medicine says using some oil or butter to smother the tick works, but according to this YouTube video, that is not the recommended solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wotB38WrRY

Try searching on E46fanatics or bf.com for "lifter tick" or "M54 lifter tick" though this is not limited to just the M54 engine. Did over-filling by 1/2 quart make your tick go away? The M54 has hydraulic lifters. Not sure how they work but has something to do with being filled with oil. If the pickup tube is temporarily dry, a lifter can start ticking. I suspect there are only two long-term fixes to keep the pickup tube submerged.
1) Replace the ticking lifter
2) Install M3 oil pan baffles to prevent oil pickup from going dry during high G corners.

On the startup grinding noise, if it's not your starter, check your secondary air pump. If engine is cold and weather is cold, it's supposed to run for 30-60 seconds, pumping air into the exhaust manifold to help burn off extra fuel and heat up the cats. Don't know if it can make a grinding noise, but if the pump goes bad, it makes weird throbbing noise. It's the mushroom shaped round plastic thing on the right (passenger) side of the engine bay, above the exhaust manifold. With car cold and ambient temp <45F, open hood, start car, then go to front and put hand on the pump to see if it's complaining. Only works if engine is cold.

[HokieZHP]

Once again thank you so much for the detailed response! I will be going home this coming weekend so I will diagnose it then. I don't have any oil with me at school that I can use.


The tick does happen all the time though, not just after high-g corners. I'll go talk to my mechanic when I get home and report back with my findings.

Thanks again for the info

[Tnhl1989]

Was there any updates on the findings of the ticking?

[PirateZHP]

I own that car now, and haven't heard this ticking noise... So I am hoping there was a permanent solution found!

[HokieZHP]

Well the starter was replaced and the Vanos and anti-rattle kit were done along with some other things and I had not heard it since so I'm assuming one of those got rid of it.

[Dave1027]

Any chance that grinding noise is caused dry lifters hitting the cam? It was mentioned that oil level had an effect. When I got my zhp and began using M1, I also switched my truck over to it. Now on cold mornings the truck makes that same noise! The ZHP doesn't do it but it's gets parked in the garage where it's stays relatively warm.

Could M1 oil be leaking down out of the lifters overnight and conventional doesn't do it?

I saw this posted on the Mobil OIL website:


Ask Mobil Ask Mobil
Would Thicker Oil Stop Lifter Noise?

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. We'll share the questions and their answers here.


Question:
Would Thicker Oil Stop Lifter Noise?
Can I use Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 synthetic oil in my ‘05 Mercedes-Benz ML 350? It has 78,000 miles and the manual recommends Mobil 1 0W-40, which is what I've been using for the last six years. I have noticed lately that the lifters are making a loud noise when it starts in the morning cold. It does go away after 10 to 15 minutes. I figure I might need a little thicker oil to keep the lifters coated with oil overnight until the next start up. And, by the way, I do I really need to use this 0W cold start viscosity in Los Angeles, California? Your response is deeply appreciated. Thank you.
-- Arbi Baniago, Lakewood,, Calif.

Answer:
In your area, there is no concern with moving to a 10W-40 viscosity grade oil. Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil is approved against MB 229.5 and MB 229.5 which is likely specified by your owner’s manual. Both Mobil 1 0W-40 and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 synthetic oil meet the ACEA specifications targeted for European vehicles - A3/B4 and A3/B3. Regarding the lifter noise, moving to a slightly higher viscosity oil may not solve this issue. We suggest you consult with your mechanic to ensure there are no underlying mechanical issues.