Camber Plates

[M0nk3y]

As the title says. I'm considering doing this as one of my next upgrades.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_106_176&products_id=150

Talking to fellow Z4M owners, dialing out the front camber really helps eliminate virtually all understeer. And with new tires, I want none at all...I HATE understeer.

I only have a couple concerns. One being what will my camber setting for DD when these are set to 0. Will it be too much for DDing and will I get too much wear on my DD tires?

I know this will put me to BSP, I'm not too concerned with it.

Anything is helpful, thanks

[bcleaver]

Hey Monkey, when you say 'set to 0' are you talking about 0 degrees of camber? Also, how many miles a year are you DDing? I used to run -2.5 deg on my DD with a 'track' setup and didn't notice much wear, although I only put about 16k on the car a year.

[Johnmadd]

Do it.

[mimalmo]

What are the OEM specs on F&R camber for the Z4M?

[M0nk3y]

Hey Monkey, when you say 'set to 0' are you talking about 0 degrees of camber? Also, how many miles a year are you DDing? I used to run -2.5 deg on my DD with a 'track' setup and didn't notice much wear, although I only put about 16k on the car a year.

Sorry, That's something I should of clarified.

I was thinking when the camber plates are at "0", I'd be at stock spec on camber. Then say I want to dial it out -2, just add -2 on the camber plates...
Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, would you set the camber plate to (say stock spec is -1) to -1 and then dial it out accordingly?

This year I put 8,000 miles on the car. But probably next year it will be more.

The only problem I've been reading is that with camber plates, dialing the camber in and out won't always be accurate and it will never be the same. Alot of people were telling me to just get camber plates, and dial it in and leave it. Would adjusting the camber in and out back and forth to stock specs be always off and inconsistent?


What are the OEM specs on F&R camber for the Z4M?

I'd gotta look that info up for you. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

To eliminate all understeer from the front and give the car a full oversteer nature requires -3-> -3.5* of front camber. If I'm going to get camber plates I'm going to max them out, go big or go home. I'd hate to get camber plates and just "compromise" to -2 because understeer will still be present.

I was thinking of getting unlimited tire alignment somewhere and just adjusting the specs prior and afterwards. I'll be mounting my RS3s day before the event and driving there...so at that point I can afford to drive on that camber.

I'm really afraid driving on -3-3.5 camber will chew the living crap out of my tires

[mimalmo]

AFAIK, when you install camber plates, 0 degrees is 0 degrees and 2 degrees is 2 degrees, not 2 degrees from OEM spec.

[bcleaver]

Sorry, That's something I should of clarified.

I was thinking when the camber plates are at "0", I'd be at stock spec on camber. Then say I want to dial it out -2, just add -2 on the camber plates...
Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, would you set the camber plate to (say stock spec is -1) to -1 and then dial it out accordingly?

This year I put 8,000 miles on the car. But probably next year it will be more.

The only problem I've been reading is that with camber plates, dialing the camber in and out won't always be accurate and it will never be the same. Alot of people were telling me to just get camber plates, and dial it in and leave it. Would adjusting the camber in and out back and forth to stock specs be always off and inconsistent?



I'd gotta look that info up for you. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

To eliminate all understeer from the front and give the car a full oversteer nature requires -3-> -3.5* of front camber. If I'm going to get camber plates I'm going to max them out, go big or go home. I'd hate to get camber plates and just "compromise" to -2 because understeer will still be present.

I was thinking of getting unlimited tire alignment somewhere and just adjusting the specs prior and afterwards. I'll be mounting my RS3s day before the event and driving there...so at that point I can afford to drive on that camber.

I'm really afraid driving on -3-3.5 camber will chew the living crap out of my tires

At 8k a year even running -3 to -3.5 deg will not destroy your tires. They will wear a little prematuraly on the inside, but from my experience it will be negligible. Going back and forth from a 'street' setup to a 'track' setup is totally doable as well. I've seen and done it many times, and it can be done with very good accuracy. The one thing to note though, is if you only adjust camber it will affect your toe. So your options are:

1. only adjust camber and be ok running toe that's not 'ideal' with either your street or track setup (can probably set to toe in for DD and when you add neg camber it will toe out (assuming where your tie rods connect to your hub here)). Not ideal, but if you get a 'track' alignment, moving your camber back to stock will probably not move your toe out enough to create issues while daily driving.

2. go to the shop during the alignment and have them do a 'track' setup and mark the location on your tire rods and your camber. Then have them adjust to a 'street' setup and mark those as well. Then just move them to their 'track' marks when racing and adjust to the 'street' setup when you're done. It's ususally just a few turns of the tie rod and a quick adjustment at the camber plates. No more than 15 min. tops each time you want to adjust.

[M0nk3y]

When you add neg camber you add Toe out. I'm going to set my DD to alittle toe-in, not too much but enough for it to work.

Good idea on the alignment shop. I got a guy I always take it too where they can do it for me.

As well, I don't want to pre-mature wear on the tires. They are expensive enough and the fact that I have a whole set of wheels for autocross and track make them that more expensive to replace tires

[murph]

Now that I'm at -4.0 on my DD, I actually change camber before/after events. (if I'm not being lazy) It moves from a bit of toe-out for autocross to a bit of toe-in on the street, which is great.

[blablac]

when you add negative camber with the plates, your toe goes out.

Install the plates and go get an alignement:
1. Set the camber at whatever setting you want for the street (-1.5 to 2 degrees)
2. Set the toe at Zero or very slighlty in.
3. Mark the camber plate location for this setting.

4. Have the tech set the camber at -3.5 (or whatever you like better) and verify how much toe out you now have (should be about 1/8).
5. Mark the plates

Now when you go to the track all you have to do is adjust your camber to marked settings and you are good to go.

You can call Vorshlag for more accurate numbers on toe and camber, they know their stuff really well.

[Hermes]

I was thinking of getting unlimited tire alignment somewhere and just adjusting the specs prior and afterwards.


i've never heard of this... Kyle, how much did they quote you/are you guessing (or do you have a hookup somewhere?)

[M0nk3y]

i've never heard of this... Kyle, how much did they quote you/are you guessing (or do you have a hookup somewhere?)

From what I've heard around the grapevine....NTB offers this. But I'm wary of doing this.

[LivesNearCostco]

I've seen several shops offering lifetime alignments, and expect these programs are designed for folks who might want a new alignment every 1-2 years because they got new tires or hit a curb, not the weekend track/Autox enthusiast. I suspect most lifetime alignment offers have restrictions such as:

Only align within stock range (i.e no -2.5 degrees of camber unless that's stock)
Only for lifetime of that specific car, not lifetime of the customer
Only good at that specific shop, not other shops in same chain
Maximum of 2 or 3 alignments per year
Doesn't apply to European RWD cars
Doesn't apply to tracked cars
Doesn't apply if you intentionally changed the settings yourself
Doesn't apply to aftermarket camber plates
etc.

But if you can find a shop that will give you as many alignments you want, as often as you want, for whatever settings you want, at one flat price, that would be a good deal!

On the camber plates, I've used Turner fixed and Ground Control Street adjustable plates. On the GC Street plates, the "zero" mark is "CL" or "Centerline" and that means stock camber, so -1 and -2 mean stock setting -1 or -2 degrees, respectively, though exact settings will depend on ride height. I have not tried the Vorshlag plates.

[Hermes]

Kyle, what did you end up getting?

I'm looking at either Vorshlag or TC Kline as what I will eventually get

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/DSC0296/1075158267_pMSfq-L.jpg
$439

http://www.bits2pix.com/photos/forsale_images/tckrplates.jpg
$550

Z stuff = TCKlineRacing.com (http://www.tcklineracing.com/index.cfm?Action=ViewCategory&Category=284)

I've been told that the TC's are a stronger quality product than Vorshlag. I know the Vorshlag ones have a choice spring perches ($0-35 extra), not sure what the deal is with the TC's.

[M3TA5IN]

Thanks monkey for posting this! I have been reading about camber forever trying to figure out what I am going to do up front and this thread just made the most sense to me!

[M0nk3y]

Kyle, what did you end up getting?

I'm looking at either Vorshlag or TC Kline as what I will eventually get

[IMG]http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/DSC0296/1075158267_pMSfq-L.jpg[/IMG
$439

[IMG]http://www.bits2pix.com/photos/forsale_images/tckrplates.jpg[/IMG
$550

Z stuff = TCKlineRacing.com (http://www.tcklineracing.com/index.cfm?Action=ViewCategory&Category=284)

I've been told that the TC's are a stronger quality product than Vorshlag. I know the Vorshlag ones have a choice spring perches ($0-35 extra), not sure what the deal is with the TC's.

TC is local, they are located an hour from where I live. I have multiple friends that have TC Kline set-ups and they love it. The whole being local thing is huge too. I could maybe haggle the price too since of these "connections"

I still haven't decided on a plate yet. I've been tossing it back and forth. I want to get them before the season though..because I have fresh RS3s sitting in the garage...I don't want to start to dial it out to -3.5 after 6months of running auto-x on RS3s...that wouldn't work out too well..haha


Thanks monkey for posting this! I have been reading about camber forever trying to figure out what I am going to do up front and this thread just made the most sense to me!

Glad you got some info out of it as well

[blablac]

just looking at the pics:

-Vorshlag will dissipate the load to the strut tower better (the spacer they use is quite a bit bigger than TCK)
-Vorshlag's bearing does look bigger as well.
-TCK has sliding caster adj. against 3 fixed settings for Vors.

Quality products either way based on reviews.

[murph]

The Vorshlag plates really only have two caster settings, but for competition use, it won't matter on an E46, you'll want it at stock caster and max camber, for about -3.5*.

I use the Vorshlag plates and couldn't be happier. Bigger bearing = lasts longer without clunking.