Continental DWS' and a dilemma...

[az3579]

So, my rear tires are dead. One is nearly bald completely, and the other rear is corded. Unfortunately, I won't have the cash until Friday to buy a set, and how easy it will be to survive 'till the next pay period ends depends on how much I spend on these tires.

I'm set on Continental DWS'. For once I wanted to get what I wanted instead of getting what's better for my wallet, because I've decided to make quality-driven decisions instead of cost-driven ones. Tires is the main thing that I don't want to skimp on.

So, I know what tire. The size is the issue I'm struggling with.

Ever since Tire Rack started charging tax, their prices are no longer feasible for my budget. With taxes and shipping costs, I'm paying easily $100 more for the tires than without any of those things. I'd diverted my attention to Tire Buyer, a ZHP Mafia affiliate.

Here are the sizes I was looking at (all prices in sets of 4 shipped):

225/35ZR-18 - not offered in this size (consider other brand??)
225/40ZR-18 - $617.72
235/35ZR-18 - $582.44
235/40ZR-18 - $676.44
245/35ZR-18 - not offered in this size (consider other brand??)
245/40ZR-18 - $714.88

OEM Sizes:
225/40ZR-18 Front
255/35ZR-18 Rear
$766.26

+ approximately $80 for mounting and balancing
+ approximately $120 for performance alignment

I'm thinking of going with a square setup. I'd love to have the stock setup of 225/40ZR-18 fronts and 255/35ZR-18's because it looks absolutely badass, but that would run me mid $700's, which is far too much money just for the tires. I would consider it, however, and isn't completely out of the running...

My beef is that I'd like to avoid going 225 all around if I can help it because it just looks a little too skinny for me, and I'd like more rubber on the road. I was thinking 235 all around or maybe even 245. The price sweet spot seems to be 235/35ZR-18's all around, which seem to be the cheapest. This does raise a couple of questions:

Why is the price difference so high between the 235/35's and the 235/40's? There isn't that much extra rubber there...

Would I be better off with a 35-series or 40-series profile tire? Does it make that big of a difference from a pothole perspective?



Things to keep in mind;
* I'd like to get at a minimum 35k out of these tires
* These will be track driven, approximately 3x a year
* These will be used year round, including in snow.
* These will not be autocrossed.
* I drive about 80-90% highway miles.
* I drive approximately 30-35k miles a year, depending on what's going on in my life.
* On the street, I do not drive aggressively. I get rolling softly, no wheel spin. Sometimes I go WOT on an on-ramp, but do not accelerate once on the highway. I almost always take exit ramp turns with some spirit, traffic permitting. No burnouts, no donuts, ever. I make damn sure that there is no wheelspin when driving on the street.
* I'm a cheap bastard, so I refuse to buy tires every 15-20k. Because of my driving habits, I will drive the tires 'till they reach the legal tread depth limit, so the tires must perform until then. I understand that winter performance is compromised with less tread depth, and don't care as long as I can safely drive in the rain or dry.
* I plan on rotating the tires every 2 or 3 autocrosses (I take my wheels off and switch on track wheels when autocrossing), or every 5k miles, if I get a squared setup.
* The car will be immediately aligned (all 4 wheels) at Kaizen Tuning in Acton, MA once the tires are mounted. Will be aligned within its breakin period of 500 miles.


So, input on what size you think is best, and answers to my questions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you see something here that directly conflicts with my choice of tire, please let me know and say which tire you think is better for the job.


Thanks...

[danewilson77]

Things to keep in mind;
* I'd like to get at a minimum 35k out of these tires


Not gonna happen. Well maybe. Isn't a 540 UTQG gonna be kind of hard....and not sticky for the track?

[az3579]

Not gonna happen. Well maybe. Isn't a 540 UTQG gonna be kind of hard....and not sticky for the track?

I can most definitely get 30k minimum out of tires. My current tires have a lower UTQG rating (400) and have over 30k on them. If my car didn't have a bad alignment for most of the time I had it (and if I didn't spend one of these past Saturdays powersliding around a course) then I would have seen close to 40 on this set. Just so happens that the two fronts are defective (they're very noisy - were replaced recently), the left rear has some tread on it (not a whole lot, but some), and the right rear is corded.

I've had much crappier tires on the track before in my E30 and they handled the track well. I'm not concerned about losing grip whatsoever because I know it'll be difficult to do. I leave the traction control in the 1/2 setting. My track events are driver schools, not competition events, so stickiness is not a priority; longevity is more important. :)

[M0nk3y]

I can most definitely get 30k minimum out of tires. My current tires have a lower UTQG rating (400) and have over 30k on them. If my car didn't have a bad alignment for most of the time I had it (and if I didn't spend one of these past Saturdays powersliding around a course) then I would have seen close to 40 on this set. Just so happens that the two fronts are defective (they're very noisy - were replaced recently), the left rear has some tread on it (not a whole lot, but some), and the right rear is corded.

I've had much crappier tires on the track before in my E30 and they handled the track well. I'm not concerned about losing grip whatsoever because I know it'll be difficult to do. I leave the traction control in the 1/2 setting. My track events are driver schools, not competition events, so stickiness is not a priority; longevity is more important. :)

Even though All-Season tires are good for long DDing, it's not really that easy to make them last on the track. Because they aren't made to heat cycle like that...you'll chew through the tires quicker.

When I ran all-season autocrossing last year on my E46. Every event I had tire chunks on the side rear fenders. Loosing grip is very easy on all-seasons. They drop off VERY quick. You probably never loose grip though because they are so loud you know when to take it easy.

You need to disable DSC completely..that's how you become faster. Spin the car, and you know exactly where that limit is then. You can push it to there then. Without that, you will never be able to drop time. Slightly off-topic but it caught my eye

[danewilson77]

Not gonna happen......safely.

Fixed.

[az3579]

Even though All-Season tires are good for long DDing, it's not really that easy to make them last on the track. Because they aren't made to heat cycle like that...you'll chew through the tires quicker.

They've performed fine with the last 4-5 sets of all-seasons I've ran at the track. They've lasted a while too. I'm not concerned with about their track longevity, especially considering I'm not going to do many track days with them. I expect 3, at the most, before having to replace them due to overall mileage...

I will be running the daily driving tires at the track, so all seasons will be on the track no matter what. I figured I'd put my money on the Conti DWS' as they seem to be the best overall "ultra" high-performance all-season tire available at the moment... :biggrin




When I ran all-season autocrossing last year on my E46. Every event I had tire chunks on the side rear fenders. Loosing grip is very easy on all-seasons. They drop off VERY quick. You probably never loose grip though because they are so loud you know when to take it easy.

These tires will not see auto-x. Track driving is a different animal, and the loss of grip is much more gradual and more easily controlled IMO. I have never, ever had issues with grip at the track with all-seasons. Any traction issues I had were completely my fault (understeer), which I have since corrected in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, summer tires aren't an option. I don't want to buy a set of winter wheels and a set of snows because that just adds to the expense, destroying the cost savings of summer tires (they are cheaper than all seasons). I wish it could just be easy and to only have to get summers! You San Diego folks have it really nice weather-wise... lol



You need to disable DSC completely..that's how you become faster. Spin the car, and you know exactly where that limit is then. You can push it to there then. Without that, you will never be able to drop time. Slightly off-topic but it caught my eye

Thanks for the advice, but I am comfortable with the limits of my vehicle on the track and am perfectly able to control it with DSC+DTC off. It is not the reason I leave the DSC off/DTC on. :)

[Washburn]

I think DWS is a wise choice - i know that a few random positive reviews/tests aren't always meaningful, but the DWS has been consistently getting stellar reviews AND tests for a pretty long time, so I assume there's good reason for that...and that they're very popular among BMW owners, whom i consider to be at least a bit more 'picky' and critical when it comes to buying things like tires ...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/nishang/TR2.pnghttp://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/nishang/TR.png

[Jon D]

FWIW. put some DSWs on the Audi Avant a week or so ago. Size 235/45ZR - 17 all around. They replace some Perrelli P6s.

Love the tires. Quieter, much more linear response, good grip etc. They are very nice all seasons. Initial reaction is they live up to reviews.

Jon D. Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[Jorge86]

I just bought two continentals 2154018. Would there be a problem of I run this ones in the front. ?

[az3579]

No problem, sir.


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[danewilson77]

I just bought two continentals 2154018. Would there be a problem of I run this ones in the front. ?

215's?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Marcus-SanDiego]

215's?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

Yep. 215/40-18.

[danewilson77]

Yep. 215/40-18.

OK. We're you with him, or did I miss something?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I just bought two continentals 2154018. Would there be a problem of I run this ones in the front. ?

Dane, he said it right here. See bold above.

[danewilson77]

Dane, he said it right here. See bold above.

Lol.... That's when I asked. Bit of an odd tire size, and with the 2 being near the 1, I thought maybe he may have hit the wrong one. Pretty rare is the 215/40-18 setup. Would be curious to learn the logic here. Is this for a winter setup?

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Marcus-SanDiego]

A winter setup for San Diego? Maybe to plow through all of the sunshine? :biggrin


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[danewilson77]

A winter setup for San Diego? Maybe to plow through all of the sunshine? :biggrin


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Lol... TT doesn't show profiles. Yeah, winter setup is not the reason.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[Jorge86]

I got them for 10 dollars a piece. They are 3 years old tires that were sitting at work.

[zhp43867]

You do not want the DWS if you are auto crossing, tracking, or just driving hard in general. They feel more feeble than Blizzak's WS series as far as dry handling and braking.

I'd recommend the Pirelli All Season, which is sort of a sleeper, under the radar tire I ran for 15k. Decent in the snow if you know how to handle your car, good in the rain, and dry grip rivaling more budget summer tires like the Sumitomo HTR ZIII and Hankook V12. Another good choice would be the RE970AS. The A/S Plus will get noisy as it wears based on tread design. Look at Tire Rack's most recent high performance all season shoot out for more information

Plain and simple the DWS does not belong in the highest performance all season category.

I think I come across as a negative nancy here, but to see what I'll be in for when I buy a tire I usually filter reviews by driving style- Spirited, then look lowest first ratings. I concur with these ratings 100%. These aren't low performance, consistent tires like a budget Sumitomo A/S tire or a snow tire, they are dangerously sloppy and feeble:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4356/screenshot20120102at833.png

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

[az3579]

You do not want the DWS if you are auto crossing, tracking, or just driving hard in general. They feel more feeble than Blizzak's WS series as far as dry handling and braking.

I'd recommend the Pirelli All Season, which is sort of a sleeper, under the radar tire I ran for 15k. Decent in the snow if you know how to handle your car, good in the rain, and dry grip rivaling more budget summer tires like the Sumitomo HTR ZIII and Hankook V12. Another good choice would be the RE970AS. The A/S Plus will get noisy as it wears based on tread design. Look at Tire Rack's most recent high performance all season shoot out for more information

Plain and simple the DWS does not belong in the highest performance all season category.

I think I come across as a negative nancy here, but to see what I'll be in for when I buy a tire I usually filter reviews by driving style- Spirited, then look lowest first ratings. I concur with these ratings 100%. These aren't low performance, consistent tires like a budget Sumitomo A/S tire or a snow tire, they are dangerously sloppy and feeble:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4356/screenshot20120102at833.png

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2522/screenshot20120102at834.png

I have to completely and wholly disagree with what you said about the DWS and the Pirelli's. I'm not sure which Pirelli in particular you were referring to, but I had a brand new set of Pirelli PZero Nero tires on the car when I got it. Wore out in about 30k miles, which I'm told is expected, but didn't have near the handling abilities with them as I have with my DWS' now. I don't think it's in my head, either; there is a particular turn that I can take at a certain speed with the DWS' that I couldn't take with the Pirelli's without squealing like a pig. I haven't noted any snow performance yet as it hasn't snowed really here yet.

In addition, the speed rating of the Pirelli's was pathetic; less than 130mph. If I wanted to go out to a track where 130+ was attainable, I wouldn't have felt safe. The DWS' are rated for 186mph.

(I track my daily driving tires)

One last thing; I think the handling issues people are referring to is car specific, because I get none of those problems those reviews are referring to. I would buy these again in a heartbeat.

I did notice that a couple of those reviews are with less than the recommended break-in miles on the tires. That's pretty premature of them to post reviews when the tires weren't even broken in yet, IMO.

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[nk_zhp]

Contis were never known as sticky tires. They are however good tires if you are not engaging in auto sport activity because of these reasons.

1. Better than average sidewall support
2. Among the similar spec tires in terms of width they are the smallest giving the slightly more stretched look which adds directional stability.
3. The continuous tread design produces a very pleasant and smooth ride.

[UdubBadger]

gotta pay to play... I think stock set up is the way to go, especially if you track 3x a yr. You won't get 35k miles out of them though, if you need to you should probably look at another set of tires. These are the BEST performance A/S out there though, hands down.

[kayger12]

These are the BEST performance A/S out there though, hands down.

Depends on what you're looking for. In street performance, the Kumho Ectsa 4x are rated essentially the same as the DWS by Tire Rack.

In dry track performance, the Kumhos spank the DWS in every category.

The Contis are better in wet track performance.

[Hornung418]

Depends on what you're looking for. In street performance, the Kumho Ectsa 4x are rated essentially the same as the DWS by Tire Rack.

In dry track performance, the Kumhos spank the DWS in every category.

The Contis are better in wet track performance.
Have a set of the Kumhos...Can't wait to get them mounted and balanced!!

[ryankokesh]

I'm a huge proponent of the dws's. I've used them in snow and they are some of the best all around AS tires I've ever had. Haven't used them on the track or anything like that though, so I can't speak to how they perform there.


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[kayger12]

Found the numbers from my pre-purchase research:

Dry Track--------Kumho 4x------------ContiDWS

Cornering-----------7.7-------------------7.4
Steering------------7.83------------------7.58
Braking-------------7.66------------------7.52
Predictability-------7.51------------------7.46
Overall-------------7.68------------------7.49

Slalom (Seconds)----5.19-----------------5.25
Lap (Seconds)------30.99----------------31.89

[kayger12]

I'm a huge proponent of the dws's. I've used them in snow and they are some of the best all around AS tires I've ever had.

This is what I'm waiting to see with the Kumhos. Zero data or info on them in the snow. This is the first winter since they became available.

[UdubBadger]

Depends on what you're looking for. In street performance, the Kumho Ectsa 4x are rated essentially the same as the DWS by Tire Rack.

In dry track performance, the Kumhos spank the DWS in every category.

The Contis are better in wet track performance.
IMO that is...
I always have to factor in the WINTER stats to the A/S category. OP might not care as much as I do.

Good call on those Kuhmos too - forgot about them.

[kayger12]

Yeah-- jury is still out on the Kumhos in the snow. Curious to see how they do. DWS have great snow reviews-- doubt the Kumhos would rate as well.

[zhp43867]

The DWS is very good in the snow I'll give them that, but it feels like a snow tire. I am talking about the Pirelli P Zero All Season, which is its name. It got 2nd behind the RE970AS in the most recent test. It did have lower speed ratings but they've been revised. The Pirelli has the fast track and slalom times of the test.

The DWS, in my own opinion, is good in the snow because it is basically a snow tire with a very high tread wear rating, from my experience. Steering feel is quite vague. It is not an engaging tire. It may be rated for 186mph but I certainly would not be comfortable going that speed on that tire.

The Dunlop Winter Sport 3D (debatably the best dry weather snow tire) has hire cornering limits, feels more playful and tracks way better than the DWS.

The DWS got 4th of four in the most recent Tire Rack test.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=147

[az3579]

Found the numbers from my pre-purchase research:

Dry Track--------Kumho 4x------------ContiDWS

Cornering-----------7.7-------------------7.4
Steering------------7.83------------------7.58
Braking-------------7.66------------------7.52
Predictability-------7.51------------------7.46
Overall-------------7.68------------------7.49

Slalom (Seconds)----5.19-----------------5.25
Lap (Seconds)------30.99----------------31.89

Good info.
Considering I will be going through a set of tires a year at the rate of driving I'm doing, I'll look into the Kumho's next year. So far, I've been underwhelmed with Kumho's on my E30 (Ecsta ASX was the last set I had).

[zhp43867]

FWIW Gary at Tire Rack told me that you cannot accurately compare the test result numbers, times, skidpad, etc. unless the tires are in the same test.

[Hornung418]

Kuhmo's feel awesome! I think the balancing had the most overall improvement on the feel. But Apparently I have a slight CAB wear, so that will need to be addressed when it gets worse. Overall, $386 after the rebate and $104 for the mounting and Road Force Balancing. Feels good, man.

[kayger12]

Good deal, bud.

Get on those CABs in a hurry. Even with slight wear on the CABs you're going to get feathering on the inside shoulder of your tires.

[Hornung418]

Thanks for the concern. I don't have any money :( But these were relatively cheap tires, so in 15k miles and three rotations, I will re-evaluate the condition and hopefully have more funds.

OEM ZHP arms and PowerFlex bushings will be the option when that time comes.

Back to the thread, I should have some snow reviews sometime this month :)

Courtesy of Gingerbread...

[az3579]

Good deal, bud.

Get on those CABs in a hurry. Even with slight wear on the CABs you're going to get feathering on the inside shoulder of your tires.

This.


Ask me how I know. :shifty
Let's just say, my front Pirelli's met an undesirable fate because of it.

[kayger12]

I don't have any money :(
Courtesy of Gingerbread...

Understood.

[digvancity]

I'm in exactly the same position as AZ. I use Nokians in the winter because I live in British Columbia and I'm an avid snowboarder. But they've got a LOT of drawbacks in any condition other than serious snow. That's I want an AS tire for my summer set so I can go a little later into the fall without mounting the gnarly Hakkas. Like AZ, I'm looking at the Khumos and the Contis. I'm also wondering if the extra cost of the stock staggered setup is worth it. What about square 245/40 if they're entirely for street use?

Here's how I think about it: the most I would spend is $950 for Contis in the staggered setup and the least I can spend is $815 for the Khumos in square (254/40) setup. I'm leaning toward the Khumos in the stock setup for $835. Seem like a good decision, since I don't need max snow performance?

Best,
Dave