Sway Bar Replacement? What Did You Choose?

[MsRN]

During my alignment yesterday, the mechanic called me to inform me that the front PS sway bar link is failing (which explains the suspension 'clunk' on bumps, I guess). I'm thinking now would be a good time to replace the FSB and links. My car has 76k miles, so I think I have a little time left before I replace the shocks and struts. I'm leaning towards UUC or Hotchkiss. Any thoughts?

[Hornung418]

Turner sways and powerflex bushings.

RootedDROIDXstatus. Come at me, bro.

[Len013091]

Hotchkiss all the way. I've had mine for a while now and couldn't be happier.

[TTI]

I got UUC Sway barbarian set:
27 mm front
24 mm rear

Drives like a tram ;)

[spencers]

Dang, wish I had the funds to change a sway bar when a link failed..

I'd get the Hotchkis.

[MsRN]

Priorities, darling!

:)

[bcleaver]

I went with the H&R 30 mm m3 bar. It fits and provides a lot of roll resistance.

[M0nk3y]

I went with the H&R 30 mm m3 bar. It fits and provides a lot of roll resistance.

IMO 30mm isn't recommended for DD use. That's way too stiff for Non-M chassis

[MsRN]

IMO 30mm isn't recommended for DD use. That's way too stiff for Non-M chassis

IYO what is okay for a DD? 27mm?

[M0nk3y]

IYO what is okay for a DD? 27mm?

I guess, I don't know what OEM spec is. Anything from 25-27 should be fine

Just for reference. M cars aftermarket sways are 27mm.

[Hornung418]

ZHP sways are 23.5mm stock. 328i ZSP is 24mm. That's all I have to say 'bout that.

RootedDROIDXstatus. Come at me, bro.

[TTI]

OEM Rear is 18 mm for 330 ZHP

[spencers]

ZHP sways are 23.5mm stock. 328i ZSP is 24mm. That's all I have to say 'bout that.
:headbang

[M0nk3y]

ZHP sways are 23.5mm stock. 328i ZSP is 24mm. That's all I have to say 'bout that.

RootedDROIDXstatus. Come at me, bro.

Could be that the zhpmafia has a stiffer chassis. Iirc the m only had a 25

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[Hornung418]

Yeah when the facelift occured in 9/01, the chassis was also stiffened...so its jut my way of making myself feel better ;)

Can't speak for the coupes.

RootedDROIDXstatus. Come at me, bro.

[bcleaver]

IMO 30mm isn't recommended for DD use. That's way too stiff for Non-M chassis

It really comes down to ride preference. A stiffer bar will reduce how independent the suspension is able to operate, but will add a great deal of roll resistance. So a 30mm bar will make the car 'flatter' so to speak over a 27mm or less bar. I don't see the relevance of the M vs non M chassis stiffness to this decision, as the sway bar affects roll resistance, not chassis stiffness.

If you want a slight 'upgrade' in reduced roll resistance from stock, then go with a 27. If you want more, go 30mm. There are plenty of people, running both non M's and M's, on 30mm front bars. I would try to drive both and see which you prefer. The other thing to note is most of these bars are adjustable, so a 27mm bar on full stiff is actually very close in roll resistance to a 30mm bar set to full soft. This also means if you ever want to go with less body roll you'll have the option with a 30mm bar, but not the case with a 27.

[SonOfWMB]

Back on topic, I just had the Racing Dynamics front and rear anti-sway bars installed. I like them so far.

[bcleaver]

Back on topic, I just had the Racing Dynamics front and rear anti-sway bars installed. I like them so far.

When picking a bar, the size is much more relevant than brand in terms of actually making a difference. At the end of the day it's a bent piece steel with some holes in the end, so not a lot can be done to provide variation outside of diameter and weight.

What size where the RD bars you had installed?

[murph]

Yep, the "M3" H&R 30mm works fine on non-M, though I agree it might be more than what's necessary for just street use. Felt a little goofy to me when running stock springs and the 30mm bar on full stiff.

For street use I like the H&R (and Turner are just rebranded H&R) bars because the bushings are lined with teflon, so they never squeak. For Racing purposes, I'll probably move to the Hotchkis bars at some point as they're hollow, and so lighter weight.

[quikryptonite]

I'm looking at this TMS setup:

TMS Non-M Sway Kit (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-103-turner-motorsport-e46-non-m-sway-bar-set.aspx)

I've heard that the "upgrade" to the 27mm bar up front is sufficient without worry about the rear sway bar. Should I just buy the front bar?

Is this a pretty easy DIY install? The BavAuto DIY Video (http://youtu.be/KwZfLWwB1uM) seems pretty straight forward.

[Newjack]

I'm looking at this TMS setup:

TMS Non-M Sway Kit (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-103-turner-motorsport-e46-non-m-sway-bar-set.aspx)

I've heard that the "upgrade" to the 27mm bar up front is sufficient without worry about the rear sway bar. Should I just buy the front bar?

Is this a pretty easy DIY install? The BavAuto DIY Video (http://youtu.be/KwZfLWwB1uM) seems pretty straight forward.

M0nk3y and Derbo posted on a suspension thread a little while back and gave some really great advice about sway bars and even not running a sway bar in the rear. I'll see if I can find the thread somewhere.

I can see m0nk3y looking at this thread so its only a matter of time before he hits you with some knowledge.

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[Newjack]

Found it.

Good discussion inside. (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?10789-Sway-Bar-Configurations-for-track&p=296556&highlight=sway#post296556)

[quikryptonite]

Found it.

Good discussion inside. (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?10789-Sway-Bar-Configurations-for-track&p=296556&highlight=sway#post296556)

I remember seeing that post before. I couldn't find it. Thank you sir. I'll check it out.

[PirateZHP]

First, I have Hotchkis front and rear sway bars. I think it feels AMAZING! However, I do not auto-x or race, so those guys may feel differently. I think if you are wanting to take on-ramps/off-ramps/quick turns, front and rear will feel great to you as well. Now, I do have the rear on the softest setting... so take that for what it's worth to you.

Second, the rear install was a PITA! But, the front is one of the easiest things you can do to the car! If you get both, do the rear first so that you get really pissed off first, then when you move to the front it will be happy days and smooth sailing.

All my opinion, of course... enjoy the sway(s) either way!

[M0nk3y]

I'm looking at this TMS setup:

TMS Non-M Sway Kit (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-103-turner-motorsport-e46-non-m-sway-bar-set.aspx)

I've heard that the "upgrade" to the 27mm bar up front is sufficient without worry about the rear sway bar. Should I just buy the front bar?

Is this a pretty easy DIY install? The BavAuto DIY Video (http://youtu.be/KwZfLWwB1uM) seems pretty straight forward.


Depends on what you want to achieve out of your car.

From my experience, and talking with TCK Racing, running a front bar and a stock rear (or no rear) helps the weight transfer to the rear wheels and helps with power down. If you add a stiffer bar in the rear, you're forcing weight to get transferred to the front wheels, which will promote more understeer.

Typically, adding a front bar on RWD cars increases understeer. But with our suspension geometry, you can gain grip up front and still benefit from adding weight transfer to the rear for power. However, there is a law of diminishing returns when you start to do this. You can only go so stiff up front before you start adding more understeer. When that happens you either gotta lighten up the bar, or add more camber and change suspension geometry (like going 0 toe or even toe out...etc).

Makes sense?

As for install, the front is easy. Just gotta drop the skid panel and everything is right there.

[quikryptonite]

Cool, thanks for the info. So for my purposes it sounds like I would be better off going with this:

H&R E46 Sway Bar (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-202-hr-front-sway-bar-for-e46.aspx)

Is there much of a difference between this and say the Hotchkis?

[PirateZHP]

Cool, thanks for the info. So for my purposes it sounds like I would be better off going with this:

H&R E46 Sway Bar (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-202-hr-front-sway-bar-for-e46.aspx)

Is there much of a difference between this and say the Hotchkis?

Only real difference is that the Hotchkis bar is three-way adjustable.

[quikryptonite]

Only real difference is that the Hotchkis bar is three-way adjustable.

And that is more for serious drivers who are auto-xing and such?

[PirateZHP]

Eh... just more adjustments to see what fits best with your driving. I have mine on the middle setting and love it.

[PirateZHP]

Thought you may be interested in this...

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=961186

[quikryptonite]

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

[quikryptonite]

For anyone interested, ECS has a pretty good price on H&R sway bars right now for our cars:

H&R front/rear sway bar E46 330i (http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-330i-M54_3.0L/News/BMW_E46_330_HR_SwayBar_330i_330ci_2001_2002_2003_2 004_2005_2006/)

[johnrando]

Resurrecting this thread as I'm considering a front sway bar. It sounds like I only need a front, and 27mm is the right choice, and I need the bushings (which many of the kits include). Any issues with these on lowered cars? Finally, would I need adjustable end links since I'm lowered? This is just for DD and some spirited turns when available. :)

[sillieidiot]

yeah you'll need adjustable endlinks for sure unless your strut as adjustable endlink brackets like i do on my ASTs. there's no issues with it on lowered cars as far as i can tell. i have the turner sways on my car for reference.

[quikryptonite]

I just upgraded to the H&R 27mm front sway bar with new OEM sway bar links. I adore it. My question is this:

Is it OK if I have one side in the most aggressive position and one side set in the softer position? (The sway bar links are not in the same hole on each side.) Will this cause any problems? Does each side need to be the same as the other side?

PS How difficult is it to replace the rear sway bar links? I'd like to leave the stock sway bar in back there.

[Sockethead]

I have UUC front bar with stock links and HR lowered springs. n
No clearance or other issues.
It's ok if if you have the links in different holes on the bar. UUC bars have 3 holes per side. I believe mine are on the center hole

[bcleaver]

I just upgraded to the H&R 27mm front sway bar with new OEM sway bar links. I adore it. My question is this:

Is it OK if I have one side in the most aggressive position and one side set in the softer position? (The sway bar links are not in the same hole on each side.) Will this cause any problems? Does each side need to be the same as the other side?

PS How difficult is it to replace the rear sway bar links? I'd like to leave the stock sway bar in back there.

It's no problem to have the bar on different stiffness setting on each side--very common actually to get more flexibility in stiffness settings. The entire bar acts as a single 'spring' so to speak, and sides do not matter.

[quikryptonite]

Thanks guys. I'll drive it a bit and see how it feels and adjust as necessary.

[Smilez]

I got eibach , h&r and hotchkis. :)

[DenzZHP]

Depends on what you want to achieve out of your car.

From my experience, and talking with TCK Racing, running a front bar and a stock rear (or no rear) helps the weight transfer to the rear wheels and helps with power down. If you add a stiffer bar in the rear, you're forcing weight to get transferred to the front wheels, which will promote more understeer.

Typically, adding a front bar on RWD cars increases understeer. But with our suspension geometry, you can gain grip up front and still benefit from adding weight transfer to the rear for power. However, there is a law of diminishing returns when you start to do this. You can only go so stiff up front before you start adding more understeer. When that happens you either gotta lighten up the bar, or add more camber and change suspension geometry (like going 0 toe or even toe out...etc).

Makes sense?

As for install, the front is easy. Just gotta drop the skid panel and everything is right there.

This is an important post regarding understeer when adding sway bars. I have Hotchkis sway bars front and rear and am experiencing understeer at the front. Not a big fan of having the understeer as I wish the car would rotate better. What I need to do is get adjustable front end links, as the front currently are not adjustable, then really play with the alignment. I am thinking probably adding some more negative camber might help with the understeer.

Hope this helps.

[M0nk3y]

This is an important post regarding understeer when adding sway bars. I have Hotchkis sway bars front and rear and am experiencing understeer at the front. Not a big fan of having the understeer as I wish the car would rotate better. What I need to do is get adjustable front end links, as the front currently are not adjustable, then really play with the alignment. I am thinking probably adding some more negative camber might help with the understeer.

Hope this helps.
With a BMW, even with a front bar you need a ton of camber up front. To really dial out the understeer completely you need around -3+ AT LEAST.

Understeer is a number of factors.

Camber
Rake
Sway bar size
Dampers
Spring rates
Ride height
Tires/Wheels


You see, a simple problem can turn into a complicated solution.

I had to deal with push for almost a whole season until I got it fixed, and now that I switched tires I almost had to start over and try and figure out a solution because the dynamics of the car changed

[DenzZHP]

With a BMW, even with a front bar you need a ton of camber up front. To really dial out the understeer completely you need around -3+ AT LEAST.

Understeer is a number of factors.

Camber
Rake
Sway bar size
Dampers
Spring rates
Ride height
Tires/Wheels


You see, a simple problem can turn into a complicated solution.

I had to deal with push for almost a whole season until I got it fixed, and now that I switched tires I almost had to start over and try and figure out a solution because the dynamics of the car changed

These are great points. I have the ST V1 coilovers with Rogue RSMs and really need to find a good balance with these with the say bar adjustment and the alignment.

[ELCID86]

bump

[stephenkirsh]

How does rake impact under steer? I've z4m bushings and it pushed the front wheels forward a bit (I'm guessing that means increased rake?).

[M0nk3y]

How does rake impact under steer? I've z4m bushings and it pushed the front wheels forward a bit (I'm guessing that means increased rake?).

Pure thinking caster.

Rake is the height difference between front/rear (so the rear ride height will be higher than front)

Typical rake is like 0.5"-0.75"

There is a law of diminishing returns when you do too muck rake and you sacrifice rear grip.



Caster (pushing the wheel up in the wheel well) is good for BMW. Typically rule of thumb is to run as much caster as possible as long as it doesn't effect your camber settings. Caster will help increase turn in response and help the wheel gain dynamic camber in turns.

Good?


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[stephenkirsh]

Oops, yes thanks.

That said, I'm running a 245/45/17 on rear and 245/40/17 on front. So I have changed rake, though it's from tires and not suspension.

Would that have much impact?

[M0nk3y]

Oops, yes thanks.

That said, I'm running a 245/45/17 on rear and 245/40/17 on front. So I have changed rake, though it's from tires and not suspension.

Would that have much impact?

That should be much of a difference.

If anything you might see the front take a set a bit better on turn in and the rear might want to rotate a bit easier, however this is assuming you were at pretty neutral rake to begin with.

Tire changeout shouldn't cause anything negative


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[terraphantm]

Caster (pushing the wheel up in the wheel well) is good for BMW. Typically rule of thumb is to run as much caster as possible as long as it doesn't effect your camber settings. Caster will help increase turn in response and help the wheel gain dynamic camber in turns.

I'm under the inpression that more caster results in a little less turn in response, increased steering effort, and increased longitudinal stability.

Interestingly, BMW reduced caster on the CSL (via offset strut mount hole), though it's still more relative to the non-M

[M0nk3y]

I'm under the inpression that more caster results in a little less turn in response, increased steering effort, and increased longitudinal stability.

Interestingly, BMW reduced caster on the CSL (via offset strut mount hole), though it's still more relative to the non-M

Interesting. That's no what I've been told (and ran) for my car.

Yes, it does increase steering effort. And the longitudinal stability comes from the fact that you're gaining dynamic camber from the caster.

I haven't experienced a reduced turn in though.


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[stephenkirsh]

Turn in felt so much better once I got the z4m bushings installed. But I'm wondering how much of that was because of the castor change or the fact that the previous bushings were completely shot. Maybe a bit of both :)

[terraphantm]

Turn in felt so much better once I got the z4m bushings installed. But I'm wondering how much of that was because of the castor change or the fact that the previous bushings were completely shot. Maybe a bit of both :)

I think a lot of it has to do with the z4m bushings not being fluid filled

[derbo]

I think a lot of it has to do with the z4m bushings not being fluid filled

This is the biggest change IMO.

[BMWCurves]

For anyone that is running the Turner Motorsport Non-M front sway bar with no other significant suspension changes, how do you like it? Did you get new endlinks as well? If so, were they OEM or adjustable?

It's on sale for $197 right now here (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-224300-e46-turner-front-sway-bar-27mm.aspx?utm_source=nl_20151130&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cm15e46frontbar)

Alternatively, UUC's front 27mm Swaybarbarian sway bar is $175 here (http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/swaybarbarian-sway-bar-set-for-1999-2005-e46-330-328-325-323-all-variants-except-xi-p54.aspx). Anyone using that? I assume there's little difference between the two.

[slater]

For anyone that is running the Turner Motorsport Non-M front sway bar with no other significant suspension changes, how do you like it? Did you get new endlinks as well? If so, were they OEM or adjustable?

It's on sale for $197 right now here (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-224300-e46-turner-front-sway-bar-27mm.aspx?utm_source=nl_20151130&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cm15e46frontbar)

Alternatively, UUC's front 27mm Swaybarbarian sway bar is $175 here (http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/swaybarbarian-sway-bar-set-for-1999-2005-e46-330-328-325-323-all-variants-except-xi-p54.aspx). Anyone using that? I assume there's little difference between the two.

i bought a used 26mm M3 front swaybar on ebay for $40. :)

on an otherwise stock ZHP suspension, i did like the flatter front end and more positive steering feel.

peter

[Sockethead]

I have the UUC bars but can't really say what they changed because I did springs, shocks and sway bars at the same time.
My suspension is really stiff... To the point of being annoying but I think that's mostly the Bilsteins

[slater]

I have the UUC bars but can't really say what they changed because I did springs, shocks and sway bars at the same time.
My suspension is really stiff... To the point of being annoying but I think that's mostly the Bilsteins

bilsteins do not have a lot of travel up front with lowering springs... how low is your car up front?

peter

[BMWCurves]

i bought a used 26mm M3 front swaybar on ebay for $40. :)

on an otherwise stock ZHP suspension, i did like the flatter front end and more positive steering feel.

peter

Hmm...I've heard of a lot of people swapping the stock sway bar for the M3 bar. There's no other mounting issues, correct, just a direct swap? I know the rear M3 sway bar won't fit on our cars without some modification.

[Sockethead]

bilsteins do not have a lot of travel up front with lowering springs... how low is your car up front?

peter

The whole suspension is pretty brutal. Using H&R sport springs

[danewilson77]

Bump. Because racecar.

Sent from an S6 Edge

[Sockethead]

The whole suspension is pretty brutal. Using H&R sport springs

Now that I swapped the Bilsteins for konis and RE RSM, the suspension is really nice. I don't think the UUC bars have really affected ride quality.

[BMWCurves]

Now that I swapped the Bilsteins for konis and RE RSM, the suspension is really nice. I don't think the UUC bars have really affected ride quality.

Do you have UUC front and back, or just one end?

[Sockethead]

Front and back. The back has their adjustable end links.
The front bar has OEM end links but the bar itself has 3 holes on the end of each side for adjustability

[bcleaver]

Hmm...I've heard of a lot of people swapping the stock sway bar for the M3 bar. There's no other mounting issues, correct, just a direct swap? I know the rear M3 sway bar won't fit on our cars without some modification.

Correct, M3 bar in the front is a direct swap.

[Dual]

Newbie, so please forgive the ignorance. Is replacement of the front bar something that can be done with the car up on Rhino ramps? I'm not much of a wrencher but reading here makes me think I could take this on. (Looking at H&R 27mm)

[slater]

Newbie, so please forgive the ignorance. Is replacement of the front bar something that can be done with the car up on Rhino ramps? I'm not much of a wrencher but reading here makes me think I could take this on. (Looking at H&R 27mm)

it is very simple, but you want the suspension drooping (front end up, wheels off) to do it.

i would recommend looking at ebay, you can find an OEM M3 front swaybar (26mm) for cheap. i got one for $45 shipped!

in that light, i also got a OEM 20mm rear 'vert bar for $60 shipped on ebay too. :)

[Dual]

Very helpful! Thank you.

[san]

it is very simple, but you want the suspension drooping (front end up, wheels off) to do it.

i would recommend looking at ebay, you can find an OEM M3 front swaybar (26mm) for cheap. i got one for $45 shipped!

in that light, i also got a OEM 20mm rear 'vert bar for $60 shipped on ebay too. :)

Are the seat bar end links direct swap between m3 and Zhp?


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[slater]

Are the seat bar end links direct swap between m3 and Zhp?


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yep.

[san]

yep.

Awesome, thanks!


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[Dual]

More on the used M3 concept: presumably the inner diameters of replacement bushings change with bar size. Do the outer diameters: do the swaybard mounts need to be properly sized?

FWIW I've found that eBay sellers rarely know what size a bar is: they're just "M3" to them, and no one seems to want to drag out a caliper and find out what they have.