Hesitation during acceleration

[cparker]

I just discovered today that during acceleration (through all gears) I am getting some intermittent hesitation in the 2000-3000rpm neighborhood. Kinda like the car jerks as it speeds up.

I just bought the car and I have not done a "tune up" yet, I have new spark plugs and filters already on order. Is there anything I should be worried about? The car has 92k miles.

[RITmusic2k]

If it's specifically from 2800-3000 it's very likely a software issue. Several forum members have corrected this problem by getting DME updates. I suffer from this as well, though I haven't yet had the chance to rectify it. Maybe this weekend while we're at the Crevier museum I can have them take a look for me.


The other possibility is that it's a VANOS issue. I'd try to get a software update first, since that'd be the cheaper solution and if it takes care of the problem, you'll never have to worry about it again.

[danewilson77]

Do you have a SES light?

Your issue could be vanos. With that mileage, I would say it's suspect. My car has 125k, and I have a bit o the jerk......i am sure due to vanos. No codes.

www.beisansystems.com

[cparker]

SES? Is that the check engine light? I have no fault lights on. I had a pre-purchase inspection done and codes were checked, I was told it had not fault codes although I'm kinda pissed that they did not discover this issue during the pre purchase inspection... but then again it took me a few days to notice it.

Do I have to get a DME (?) update through the dealer or how does that work?

[danewilson77]

You have a DME...or ECU. That's the cars computer

I would hinge bets that your vanos needs rebuilt.

[cparker]

Gotcha. The acronym threw me off. The vanos repair looks pretty straight forward. I don't really know if mine rattles, but if I've already got it apart I may as well install the rattle kit.

I will order the materials to rebuild it so they're on the way. I'm going to be replacing the spark plugs tonight and the fuel filter as soon as it arrives. I'd rather take one step at a time so I know for sure what fixed it. Hopefully the vanos kit will be here for next weekend.

[kpro]

Vanos for sure, my car is reallly really bad about the hesitation. It just keeps getting worse. Im pretty sure a geo metro can take my car in a race at this point. Mine is the worst with a/c on and between 2500-3000 RPMs.

[cparker]

That's good to know because I was a little dissapointed by the car's power output so hopefully rebuilding the vanos will help.

[mimalmo]

Rev that bish to 4k RPM, dump the clutch, upshift at redline, rinse, repeat. Follow those instructions and you'll never find yourself below 3k RPM.

[VA//M3]

That's good to know because I was a little dissapointed by the car's power output so hopefully rebuilding the vanos will help.

It will.

It made a massive difference on my car and a new DISA valve really brought the engine back up to life.

Also,

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=405052&d=1306759598

Taking the vanos solenoids out allows you to clean all the passages in the vanos body. Also BMW sells a vanos piston and seal kit pictured below. for about 40 dollars.

One person reported that the new vanos piston spring was longer then the older one that came out. so replacing the vanos pistons is a good idea.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/h/r/236.png

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BN53&mospid=47713&btnr=11_2170&hg=11&fg=15

Part number 3 and 4.

2 x 11361703713
2 x 11367560298

Also these parts can break upon removal and it is good to order them

Parts 9, 10, and 17 two of each and the sealing gasket partnumber 19

[cparker]

What's a DISA valve?

[cparker]

If it's specifically from 2800-3000 it's very likely a software issue. Several forum members have corrected this problem by getting DME updates. I suffer from this as well, though I haven't yet had the chance to rectify it. Maybe this weekend while we're at the Crevier museum I can have them take a look for me.


The other possibility is that it's a VANOS issue. I'd try to get a software update first, since that'd be the cheaper solution and if it takes care of the problem, you'll never have to worry about it again.

I've done some reading on this and I've found that the dealership actually needs your DME to send out and is only done on a customer request basis. What does it cost and how long will they have the DME?

[VA//M3]

What's a DISA valve?

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/p/u/199.png

Part number 7

11617544805

at a cool 200 dollars

[VA//M3]

I've done some reading on this and I've found that the dealership actually needs your DME to send out and is only done on a customer request basis. What does it cost and how long will they have the DME?


Or you can do it yourself

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1628787

[cparker]

What is the function of the DISA valve and what are the sypmtoms of it's failure?

[mimalmo]

I've done some reading on this and I've found that the dealership actually needs your DME to send out and is only done on a customer request basis. What does it cost and how long will they have the DME?

You're talking about the 4k RPM dip that is exclusive to the ZHP. That's the only one that requires the DME to be shipped to NJ.


Or you can do it yourself

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1628787

Since he's talking about the 4k RPM dip, that cannot be fixed by a standard DME flash. So no, he cannot do it himself.

[RITmusic2k]

yeah, the 2800-3000rpm dip is cured* by a standard DME update which can be done within an hour at any BMW service department.


* - if it's a software flaw only; if there's a VANOS issue as well, that'll also need to be addressed.

[VA//M3]

You're talking about the 4k RPM dip that is exclusive to the ZHP. That's the only one that requires the DME to be shipped to NJ.



Since he's talking about the 4k RPM dip, that cannot be fixed by a standard DME flash. So no, he cannot do it himself.

I am willing to put down $100 dollars down that it can be done by simply updating the DME AND you can do it by yourself! WINKFP and dis is all that is needed. The fact that you have to ship it out to NC must be due to some red tape or just so that the dealership doesn't mess it up since the ms45.1 DME is sensitive. as long as you bypass the DME relay everything will be fine.

Service Measure
Engine Electrical B12 209 05 04/06/2005
Subject
M54B30 MS45.1; Engine Power Drops at 4000 RPM

Vehicle
E46, E60 with M54B30 and manual transmission.

Complaint
Customer may complain of an engine power drop at approximately 4000 rpm during aggressive acceleration.

Cause
Ignition timing retardation due to unfavorable tolerances of DISA valve flap shaft. Vibrations of a DISA valve are interpreted by the knock sensor system as detonation combustion.

Measure
On a customer complaint basis, replace DISA valve with the improved part (PN 11 61 7 544 805).
After DISA replacement, connect vehicle to DIS/GT1 and from DME identification page retrieve the programmed and basic DME part numbers.
Reprogram DME with the latest available DTS CD! SSS CIP software version. DME programming should last for at least 20 minutes and should result in both programmed and basic control unit number changes. Reprogramming of DME clears the long-term knock sensors adaptations. If the knock adaptation values are not cleared, the vehicle will still exhibit the power lack complaint, even with the improved DISA valve installed.

Important:
In the event the DME programming takes only a short period of time (approximately 5 minutes), and the basic control unit part number has not been changed, the adaptation clearing process has not been accomplished.

In such a case, contact Technical Hotline — Drive train via a PuMA case, requesting authorization for DME shipment to Engineering Department for reprogramming. For the PuMA case title use the following: MS45.1 DME KNOCK ADAPTATION RESET”.

^^ thats when the dealership can't figure it out or doesnt want to deal with it. so yes, anyone can do it.

[mimalmo]

I am willing to put down $100 dollars down that it can be done by simply updating the dme.

If that was the case (again, only speaking about the 4k RPM dip here), why would BMW NA specifically state that the DME is to be shipped to NJ? Think about it for a moment - they have to remove the DME, package it, ship it overnight, get it returned back to them in a couple days and go through a re-installation process of the DME (total PITA if you've ever seen it done). Not to mention, they give the owner a loaner car during this period (at least they did when the car was under warranty).

If it was as easy as a DME flash at the dealership, why wouldn't they do it that way instead of all the hassle I described above? The answer is that the knock adaptation fix for the 4k RPM dip is not something that can be flashed by the GT1 at your local dealer or by someone with a laptop running some diagnostic software.

[VA//M3]

If that was the case (again, only speaking about the 4k RPM dip here), why would BMW NA specifically state that the DME is to be shipped to NJ? Think about it for a moment - they have to remove the DME, package it, ship it overnight, get it returned back to them in a couple days and go through a re-installation process of the DME (total PITA if you've ever seen it done). Not to mention, they give the owner a loaner car during this period (at least they did when the car was under warranty).

If it was as easy as a DME flash at the dealership, why wouldn't they do it that way instead of all the hassle I described above? The answer is that the knock adaptation fix for the 4k RPM dip is not something that can be flashed by the GT1 at your local dealer or by someone with a laptop running some diagnostic software.

I'm sorry but, You're incorrect my friend.

You use WINKFP to update the DME. Then use DIS to clear ALL of the adaptations. done.

The DME is actually very easy to remove. 4 allen bolts, a plastic cover. 5 ecu connectors and unclipping the DME from it's plastic shroud iirc.

redtape and the dealership not wanting to deal with is likely the answer. dealerships do not know how to use WINKFP. Since it is BMW factory software.

But I can provide closure.

I'll pull up DW77's software version on his sharkinjector thread. and show a screen cap of WINKFP with the EXACT same version number. If needed.

[mimalmo]

You really need to read up more on the 4k RPM dip. It's not as simple as clearing the adaptations and you're done.

The software version has ZERO to do with the 4k RPM dip so, screen captures are meaningless.

[VA//M3]

You really need to read up more on the 4k RPM dip. It's not as simple as clearing the adaptations and you're done.

The software version has ZERO to do with the 4k RPM dip so, screen captures are meaningless.

I respectfully disagree with you. You keep putting words into my mouth--I never once said clearing adaptations by itself took care of the problem...

Show me concrete solid proof backing up your claims; as I have.

I'm not continuing this debate until you do so. It's going nowhere.

What you need to fix the dip is.

Latest MS45.1 Software version THEN clear adaptations.
Updated DISA valve part number.

[mimalmo]

I don't have "prove" anything. It's all there. Search the various forums, read up on the SIB's and PuMA cases that have happened for the last 6 years. Not once has the 4k RPM dip been fixed in any other way than removal of the DME and shipping it to NJ.

[VA//M3]

I don't have "prove" anything. It's all there. Search the various forums, read up on the SIB's and PuMA cases that have happened for the last 6 years. Not once has the 4k RPM dip been fixed in any other way than removal of the DME and shipping it to NJ.

That was 6 yrs ago. Now there is a new way. That is all I'm saying.

[mimalmo]

For the LAST 6 years. Not 6 years ago. There's a difference.

[kayger12]

Ok boys, that's enough.

Go to your neutral corners and agree to disagree.

Thanks.

[VA//M3]

For the LAST 6 years. Not 6 years ago. There's a difference.

That's irrelevant at this point. less then 6 months ago not many people were aware or knew how to update their e46's by themselves. Just 3 months ago people started flashing euro DME flashes unto their US cars. for the last 6 years people had no clue how to do it. and didn't know it was even possible.

Shipping the DME to BMW in NJ is no different then flashing your DME at home in under 30 minutes nowdays

[kayger12]

VA-- I'm going to assume you missed my post.

[mimalmo]

We're plenty civil here Keith. No name calling or insults.

What IS relevant though is that from 2005 all the way up to and including right now today, in order to have the 4k RPM dip fixed, the DME has to be shipped to NJ. Never in all those years (nor today) has that changed.

[VA//M3]

We're plenty civil here Keith. No name calling or insults.

What IS relevant though is that from 2005 all the way up to and including right now today, in order to have the 4k RPM dip fixed, the DME has to be shipped to NJ. Never in all those years (nor today) has that changed.

OK, looks like I need a ZHP experiencing the dip, a new updated DISA valve, and 30 minutes to update the DME and clear the adaptations to put this matter to rest.

I know for a fact it will fix the dip.

[kayger12]

Ok-- gents, this is the last time I'm going to address this.

When I say enough is enough, that means, strangely-- ENOUGH.

Not post up again and get the last word in.

If you don't agree, feel free to PM me, but we are not going to do this here.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

As long as you guys stick to the issues, without resorting to direct attacks, I've got no problem. Keep it civil and life is good.

Thanks, guys.


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

[mimalmo]

Thanks Marcus.

[mimalmo]

OK, looks like I need a ZHP experiencing the dip, a new updated DISA valve, and 30 minutes to update the DME and clear the adaptations to put this matter to rest.

I know for a fact it will fix the dip.

If you can, I suggest documenting your experiences by getting dyno graphs of the 4k RPM dip before and after.

FWIW, I'd love to see it work. It would help out a TON of ZHP owners out there that didn't get theirs fixed under warranty and now BMW NA wants big money to fix it. I'm just saying in the dozens upon dozens of documented cases out there, your method has never proven effective long-term.

[VA//M3]

As long as you guys stick to the issues, without resorting to direct attacks, I've got no problem. Keep it civil and life is good.

Thanks, guys.


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

Thanks!

http://archer.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/like_a_boss.png

:guns2

[VA//M3]

If you can, I suggest documenting your experiences by getting dyno graphs of the 4k RPM dip before and after.

FWIW, I'd love to see it work. It would help out a TON of ZHP owners out there that didn't get theirs fixed under warranty and now BMW NA wants big money to fix it. I'm just saying in the dozens upon dozens of documented cases out there, your method has never proven effective long-term.

Can you describe my method? Has anyone ever tried updating their own ZHP, installed their own DISA valve, and reset the adaptions and failed to fix the issue?

No one ever has. Since not a whole lot of people have the knowledge to do so on their own.

All the posts I've seen where they say they had it updated whether by the dealer or indy; don't show proof that they really did so.--They don't even list their previous and new software versions-- The just claimed "i had it updated"

What if the dealer missed a step? or their firmware database was just to old? No one has ever taken that into consideration

No one has said I got my zhp updated and this is the software number and its still suffering from the 4k dip. As far as I'm concerned they might still be running their old version.

additionally, how many of those posts failed to mention they did not replace their DISA valve with the new updated and revised part?

It's impossible to know for sure.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Guys, for the record, I wasn't overruling keith's request. I just didn't realize that he had followed up again. I also didn't realize that he had essentially shut the discussion down -- so that cooler heads could prevail.

You now see the limitations of my iPad. It is not the best tool for site moderation. :biggrin


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

[mimalmo]

By saying "your method", I was referring to not shipping the DME to NJ.

[VA//M3]

Not only that but doing it yourself. With proper instruction and knowing how to use WINKFP and DIS.

[VA//M3]

Guys, for the record, I wasn't overruling keith's request. I just didn't realize that he had followed up again. I also didn't realize that he had essentially shut the discussion down -- so that cooler heads could prevail.

You now see the limitations of my iPad. It is not the best tool for site moderation. :biggrin


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

I see.

Maybe using logmein through your ipad to log into your desktop would be better. Works like a charm

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I see.

Maybe using logmein through your ipad to log into your desktop would be better. Works like a charm

Will have to look into that. Thanks!


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

[VA//M3]

If anyone sees this thread and wants to get technical about this and is willing to dyno the car before and after the update and lives near me. PM me.

All you need is the updated DISA valve, set up an appointment at a dyno chassis and I've got the rest.

[cparker]

I almost lost my lunch when I just ordered all the parts for the VENOS. On top of the $120 for the seal kit and rattle kit, the parts from BMW were over $200.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I have to admit, I'd love to get to the bottom of this issue once and for all. This issue has been unresolved for some time. You know it's bad when our own members haven't figured it out definitively.

Thanks, guys, for trying -- even if passionately -- to get to the bottom of it.


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

[VA//M3]

I almost lost my lunch when I just ordered all the parts for the VENOS. On top of the $120 for the seal kit and rattle kit, the parts from BMW were over $200.

wait what? why so much? does that also include a VCG?

[kayger12]

Interesting info that I had bookmarked from a post on E46f:

"The ONLY way to get rid of a slight dip @ 4k rpm is to remove the stock dual resonance intake manifold. The intake runners switch over at 4k rpm and there will ALWAYS be a slight dip in power at this point. All 330s do this, not just the ZHPs. The ZHPs did have a software problem that caused the DME to "hear" the DISA valve making noise during the intake runner transition which was mistaken for knock causing the DME to pull significant timing. This was the power dip those of us that experienced this with our ZHPs felt. I had the problem. I had my DME sent to NJ and my problem was solved. Have you put your car on a dyno since getting your 4k rpm dip fixed? I can guarantee you that even after the "4k rpm fix" there is still going to be a slight dip at 4000 rpm - I challenge you to provide a dyno of a stock 330 that doesn't have a slight dip at 4000 rpm."

[VA//M3]

Interesting info that I had bookmarked from a post on E46f:

"The ONLY way to get rid of a slight dip @ 4k rpm is to remove the stock dual resonance intake manifold. The intake runners switch over at 4k rpm and there will ALWAYS be a slight dip in power at this point. All 330s do this, not just the ZHPs. The ZHPs did have a software problem that caused the DME to "hear" the DISA valve making noise during the intake runner transition which was mistaken for knock causing the DME to pull significant timing. This was the power dip those of us that experienced this with our ZHPs felt. I had the problem. I had my DME sent to NJ and my problem was solved. Have you put your car on a dyno since getting your 4k rpm dip fixed? I can guarantee you that even after the "4k rpm fix" there is still going to be a slight dip at 4000 rpm - I challenge you to provide a dyno of a stock 330 that doesn't have a slight dip at 4000 rpm."

You are right on the money.


The dip is normal on a dyno graph. But the retarded ignition timing is not.

The dip is there because the flap opens between 3750rpm and 4k rpm altering the velocity of the air inside the intake plenum for high rpm high HP numbers. Let's say your DISA valve fails in the stuck closed position at all times past 4k rpm the car is going to feel gutless since it can't fill the chambers with air fast enough thus creating a bottleneck in the engine.

The ignition retard can be seen on the graph at 4k and up because the flap is open and it rattles loose inside the intake causing the knock sensors to retard the timing.

Like I said.

A new DISA updated part number and software update is the answer to this.

With that said there is always going to be that slight feel of power loose at above 4k rpm since our engine develop peak Tq at 3500 RPM. But your still putting down 205-215 hp and 200-205 tq to the wheels from 4k all the way to redline

Take this M54B30 graph. Now the graph below has schrick cams along with a few other goodies but is a good example of how the power and tq curves should look on a healthy M54b30

If you notice. Power and tq begin to take a big hit past 6k rpm (which is the stock rev limit) There is no reason to rev past 6k on our engine unless you are trying to stay in gear for the upcoming corner and are wanting to squeeze everylast tenth of a second out of your time. If your straight line racing shifting at 6k or even 5750k will yield better results.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=345505&stc=1&d=1264013325

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I see. So, even with the dme reprog, there will be a slight dip -- unless you do what that post says to do.


iPad. Tapatalk. Bi-winning.

[danewilson77]

So.......this is my deal. I don't know all there is regarding this issue. I am not saying either one of you do either. But what I will offer is my experience.

My experience with the Shark is a bit different than most, because of my lack of research. I had to mail my dme to Jim Conforti, who not only uploaded the Shark software, but also uploaded the latest BMW software update (2008?). The dip I experienced before hand, @ or around 4k rpm's, is gone.

DW out.

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!

[VA//M3]

So.......this is my deal. I don't know all there is regarding this issue. I am not saying either one of you do either. But what I will offer is my experience.

My experience with the Shark is a bit different than most, because of my lack of research. I had to mail my dme to Jim Conforti, who not only uploaded the Shark software, but also uploaded the latest BMW software update (2008?). The dip I experienced before hand, @ or around 4k rpm's, is gone.

DW out.

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!


The dip shown in the graph above is undescernible in the butt dyno. I'll try to find a graph that suffers from the knock adaptation retard timing 4k dip issue.

[VA//M3]

Take this one for example

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38901

That kind of dyno graph is one that will be definitely felt as a hesitation or miss on the street. and look at the lack luster power.

[bcleaver]

Great thread guys. I haven't spent much time noticing if I have much hesitation around that rpm, but if I do I'll be following the outcome of this debate closely.

Is the pulling of timing around 4k due to a faulty disa valve and old tune common among zhps? Like all of them? Like i said, I haven't noticed a hesitation, but I've also never driven another 330 that doesn't have the problem so just might not be aware it's there.

[cparker]

Fantastic discussion you guys.

[cparker]

wait what? why so much? does that also include a VCG?

Yeah, VCG and grommets plus a few probably-should-have-in-case-I-break-it parts.

[Hornung418]

Awesome discussion, gents! So where does this leave me with a 328i with a B30 intake manifold and DISA?

[danewilson77]

Awesome discussion, gents! So where does this leave me with a 328i with a B30 intake manifold and DISA?

"Special"

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!

[bmrhead]

I have a similar issue but my car only has 21k miles and it does it exactly at 4000 rpm. Mike Miller from Bimmer Mag told me its the DME update. The one and only dealer in Hawaii sucks!!! I'm waiting to remap the DME with the DINAN upgrade and hope that it'll solve the issue.

[cparker]

I wanted to provide an update for anyone looking to resolve the 3200 RPM hesitation which is typically attirubuted to the VANOS seals. I rebuilt my VANOS and replaced the oxygen sensors but still had the hesitation. A recent DME update completely resolved the probelm.

[danewilson77]

i wanted to provide an update for anyone looking to resolve the 3200 rpm hesitation which is typically attirubuted to the vanos seals. I rebuilt my vanos and replaced the oxygen sensors but still had the hesitation. A recent dme update completely resolved the probelm.

dme update at the dealer correct?

[JHiggy]

Hey guys, I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere; looked but didn't find.

What was your process/experience sending the DME (aside from Dane w/ Shark)?

Specifically, I'm interested in how much $$ damage and time I'll be without my ride.

Thanks in advance.

[danewilson77]

Hey guys, I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere; looked but didn't find.

What was your process/experience sending the DME (aside from Dane w/ Shark)?

Specifically, I'm interested in how much $$ damage and time I'll be without my ride.

Thanks in advance.

Well...I think it has to be shipped to Jersey.......I bet your looking at 10 days...

[aurelius]

FWIW: i got the DME in my car reflashed (apparently had never been in its prior owner(s) hands) for $100 bucks and 1.5 hours of updating time at a certified BMW shop.

Above quote from this related thread:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?3665-Vanos-didn-t-solve-it/page8

[JHiggy]

Thanks guys. At the recent Tech Session in San Diego, I asked the tech if my software should be updated. He reported that my software was last updated/representative of a 2005 version. Not sure if this is the same thing as the DME reflash as I'm wondering if more needs to be/could be done in-house per the posted thread above; separate from sending to NJ. The tech didn't seem to indicate a need to update the software based upon his review but I've now found a few posts from some of the mafia indicating multiple updates (flashing?). Aplogies if my question/concern is too elementary. I'll just contact an indy (Euro Auto Spot in SD) to see if they can update post 2005 version.

[wsmeyer]

I had my DME reprogrammed under warranty in Fall 2007 and it took 3 1/2 weeks! You'd think they would be in a rush but no, they shipped it ground both ways to NJ. Whatever, I had a 335i rental on their dime so it was a nice change. Sadly my 4k dip returned after 500 or so miles. It doesn't do it every time but if I floor it just at the right time I can get it to do it on cue.

Does anyone know when they came out with the newer designed DISA valve?

William.

[aurelius]

At the recent Tech Session in San Diego, I asked the tech if my software should be updated. He reported that my software was last updated/representative of a 2005 version.

Did you get a printout? The latest BMW software version is 7561520. IIRC, it dates back to 2005.

Assuming you're planning to install performance software, this has been addressed elsewhere but for clarification:

Get the latest BMW software prior to installing performance software (not vice versa). You do not need to go to a dealer for this. An indie shop equipped with autologic can do this for you. Note: not all indie shops are so equipped.



Does anyone know when they came out with the newer designed DISA valve?


It was given a new part number as of April, 2004. Part # 11617544805.


(http://s1125.photobucket.com/albums/l584/aurelius3/Random%20BMW%20Pics/?action=view&current=BMWE46330iIntakemanifoldsystem.jpg)

[cparker]

My dme update was done at and indie shop. I'll look at the paperwork when i get home, they gave me the printout.

[danewilson77]

I think the newest BMW software came out in 2008.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[aurelius]

My dme update was done at and indie shop. I'll look at the paperwork when i get home, they gave me the printout.

How much did the shop charge for the update?

[danewilson77]

Usually about an hours worth of labor.

HTC Thunderbolt+TT

[cparker]

The hit me with 2 hours.

BTW: I looked hard for a 4200rpm flat spot and can't find one.