Manual power dip and Dinan Software Flash

[Stu]

If I get the manual power dip fixed by flashing the DME, and then get Dinan Stage II software, will that overwrite the power dip fix entirely? Or vis-versa?

[Sockethead]

If I get the manual power dip fixed by flashing the DME, and then get Dinan Stage II software, will that overwrite the power dip fix entirely? Or vis-versa?
I'm going to take a guess here and say that the Dinan software will not overwrite. as far as I know, the power dip flash reprograms the anti-knock sensor. I'll be talking to a Dinan dealer next week about some other stuff, I'll get you a definitive answer then if no one else knows for sure.

[Sockethead]

The Dinan dealer said that they flash the DME with the latest BMW firmware before they flash it with the Dinan firmware. I'm not sure whether all Dinan dealers do it this way. Since the firmware has to be flashed by a Dinan dealer, I would call which ever dealer your where thinking of taking your car to and ask them.

[mimalmo]

The Dinan software does NOT fix the 4k dip.

If it was as simple as a reflash, why would BMWNA still require DME's to be shipped to NJ to address the 4k dip? They like quick and easy. Removing DME's and overnighting them to NJ and back to the dealer to be re-installed in not quick and easy. They do this because they have to.

[Sockethead]

Thanks for the clarification Mimalmo,

When I had mine done at the dealer in the summer of 2008, they said that BMWNA was allowing them to flash at the dealer. Ironically though they fried my DME when they flashed it. They had my car for a month while they got a new DME from BMWNA.

So it sounds like the thing to do would be to take that car to the Dealer and see if they will flash for you then get the Dinan software done.

Here's the body of the original service bulletin JIC someone wants to see it...

BMW Service Bulletin

S I B 12 17 05
Engine Electrical SystemsSeptember 2005
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.M. B12 209 05 dated4/6/2005

SUBJECT
M54B30 MS45.1; Engine Power Drops at 4000 RPM
MODELE46, E60, E85 with M54B30 engine and manual transmission only

SITUATION
The customer may complain of an engine power drop at approximately 4000 RPM during aggressive acceleration.

CAUSE
Ignition timing retardation shift due to unfavorable knock adaptations in the 4000 - 5000 RPM range.

CORRECTION
On a customer complaint basis, perform the procedure described below.

PROCEDURE1.
Verify the complaint. This situation can vary from a slight surge to a noticeable drop in power during hard acceleration.

2. Do not replace any parts!

3. Submit a PuMA case requesting authorization for DME shipment to Engineering Department for reprogramming. For the PuMA case title please use the following: "MS45.1 DME KNOCK ADAPTATION RESET".

4. Reinstall the DME.5. For E60 only: Reprogram the vehicle using CIP 19.1 (Target Data Status E060-05-09-530), or higher.

WARRANTYCovered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
For the appropriate labor operations please refer to the KSD system.

[danewilson77]

I think the "flash" that Jim did on mine fixed the power dip.

[mimalmo]

Thanks for the clarification Mimalmo,

When I had mine done at the dealer in the summer of 2008, they said that BMWNA was allowing them to flash at the dealer. Ironically though they fried my DME when they flashed it. They had my car for a month while they got a new DME from BMWNA.

So it sounds like the thing to do would be to take that car to the Dealer and see if they will flash for you then get the Dinan software done.

Here's the body of the original service bulletin JIC someone wants to see it...

BMW Service Bulletin

S I B 12 17 05Engine Electrical SystemsSeptember 2005Technical ServiceThis Service Information bulletin supersedes S.M. B12 209 05 dated4/6/2005.SUBJECTM54B30 MS45.1; Engine Power Drops at 4000 RPMMODELE46, E60, E85 with M54B30 engine and manual transmission onlySITUATIONThe customer may complain of an engine power drop at approximately 4000 RPM during aggressive acceleration.CAUSEIgnition timing retardation shift due to unfavorable knock adaptations in the 4000 - 5000 RPM range.CORRECTIONOn a customer complaint basis, perform the procedure described below.PROCEDURE1. Verify the complaint. This situation can vary from a slight surge to a noticeable drop in power during hard acceleration.2. Do not replace any parts!3. Submit a PuMA case requesting authorization for DME shipment to Engineering Department for reprogramming. For the PuMA case title please use the following: "MS45.1 DME KNOCK ADAPTATION RESET".4. Reinstall the DME.5. For E60 only: Reprogram the vehicle using CIP 19.1 (Target Data Status E060-05-09-530), or higher.WARRANTYCovered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.For the appropriate labor operations please refer to the KSD system.


I think the "flash" that Jim did on mine fixed the power dip.

No, see above.

[Sockethead]

Geeze Mimalmo, you really want to get your point across :eyetwitch

Also, it's interesting to note that the bullitin says that only manual trans cars are affected.

[mimalmo]

Haha, just trying to make sure everyone understands.

The 4k dip is related to the knock adaptation. When Dinan, Conforti, AA, etc "tune" a car, they are not making changes to the knock adaptation.

[danewilson77]

Crystal clear.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Haha, just trying to make sure everyone understands.

The 4k dip is related to the knock adaptation. When Dinan, Conforti, AA, etc "tune" a car, they are not making changes to the knock adaptation.

Eli getting all clear and stuff. Haha. All good, Eli.

[Stu]

Soooo...moral of the story is...

1. Dinan software does not overwrite anything in the DME related to knock sensors

2. Ask them if they'll do the DME programming there before flashing the Dinan software

3. ????

4. Profit!

[Sockethead]

Soooo...moral of the story is...

1. Dinan software does not overwrite anything in the DME related to knock sensors

2. Ask them if they'll do the DME programming there before flashing the Dinan software

3. ????

4. Profit!

I would try the dealer first. You can use the service bullitin I referenced earlier if they don't know what you are talking about.
Your car is a manual trans, yes?

[Stu]

I would try the dealer first. You can use the service bullitin I referenced earlier if they don't know what you are talking about.
Your car is a manual trans, yes?

Yup. I never noticed it all too often until I swapped out my previous performance-killing air box. The other day, around 4200-ish RPM it seemed to hesitate and then kicked back up again. It did it a few times, so I figure that's what the problem is.

[az3579]

Haha, just trying to make sure everyone understands.

The 4k dip is related to the knock adaptation. When Dinan, Conforti, AA, etc "tune" a car, they are not making changes to the knock adaptation.

You can't deny, however, that things like the Shark Injector or other performance software have an effect on the dip. If I was to accelerate from a standstill, right now, I would not notice any power loss since applying the Shark, though it was as clear as day previous to the software update. I know that if I dyno the car, I will see the dip, but what matters is that I don't feel it.

So, if it doesn't alter the knock settings, why do I not feel this dip anymore? Interesting thing to think about if BMW says that it's knock-related settings in the DME.

For reference, my DME was never sent in to BMW.

[Sockethead]

I believe the adaptions are adjusted to take into account cam noise or other errata that the DME interpreted as engine knock.

Other things that may affect the power around this range is the DISA valve in the manifiold and a non functioning VANOS.

When I got my DME fixed I still felt a surge around 4k RPM. It seemed start as a flutter then a surge. I had it back to the dealer several times for them to check and just ended up living with it for two years until about a month ago when I replaced the VANOS. Now I have strong power through out the whole range.

I had checked the DISA valve and it was functioning fine

[CERF04ZHP]

My 4k power dip seems to be more pronounced when the weather is warmer... now that the spring is here and we're pretty much consistently above 50 degrees or so, it's very obvious. It almost feels like a fuel-cutoff situation. I can remember over the winter when it's cold out, that it's barely noticeable.

[kyfdx]

Took my car in today for this problem..... Since it's just a software update, it's not covered by the CPO warranty...

They wanted $525 total.... remove the DME and send it to NJ for update..

I said... hmmm... that seems like a lot... Okay, $140 for diagnostics, if I don't fix it.. So, net cost to fix vs. not fixing is $385....

That's a lot for a car under warranty, especially when it's related to engine performance. So.. I okayed the repair (since I'm driving their car)...." Oh...we found a nail in your rear tire.. in the sidewall... can't patch it..." They want $440 for a new 255/35-18 Potenza.. mounting and balancing included...lol.

Not a good day.

[mimalmo]

You should ask for a goodwill repair on the DME update.

[danewilson77]

Damn....that's no good bro.

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!

[Stu]

Took my car in today for this problem..... Since it's just a software update, it's not covered by the CPO warranty...

They wanted $525 total.... remove the DME and send it to NJ for update..

I said... hmmm... that seems like a lot... Okay, $140 for diagnostics, if I don't fix it.. So, net cost to fix vs. not fixing is $385....

That's a lot for a car under warranty, especially when it's related to engine performance. So.. I okayed the repair (since I'm driving their car)...." Oh...we found a nail in your rear tire.. in the sidewall... can't patch it..." They want $440 for a new 255/35-18 Potenza.. mounting and balancing included...lol.

Not a good day.

They still need to send it to NJ? How do they not have the software by now?

Shoot, I think even we can do this ourselves if someone has a hold of it. Actually, check with some of the people going to the Mafia meet.

[danewilson77]

They still need to send it to NJ? How do they not have the software by now?

Shoot, I think even we can do this ourselves if someone has a hold of it. Actually, check with some of the people going to the Mafia meet.

Oh boy....not this again...lol

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!

[Sockethead]

You should ask for a goodwill repair on the DME update.

Definitely!

[Sockethead]

They still need to send it to NJ? How do they not have the software by now?

Shoot, I think even we can do this ourselves if someone has a hold of it. Actually, check with some of the people going to the Mafia meet.

The dealer fried my DME when they tried to do it themselves... took them a month get another one properly programmed from BMWNA.... just sayin...

[danewilson77]

The dealer fried my DME when they tried to do it themselves... took them a month get another one properly programmed from BMWNA.... just sayin...

So who do we trust more...us...or them? Hehe..

Droid + Tapatalk = FTW!

[Jon D]

You should ask for a goodwill repair on the DME update.

This

[JohnnyGraphic]

I would also push for a goodwill repair. I've heard in other magazines, that BMW is holding some of their information very closely. They don't want that information to be 'public'. They are even withholding that info from the dealerships. There are many instances of having issues referred back to BMW NA to have the problem fixed by the mother ship.

Johnny

[Katu]

Has anyone had any luck of getting the dealership to address this issue with their car out of warranty?

[jam149]

My 4k power dip seems to be more pronounced when the weather is warmer... now that the spring is here and we're pretty much consistently above 50 degrees or so, it's very obvious. It almost feels like a fuel-cutoff situation. I can remember over the winter when it's cold out, that it's barely noticeable.

I just had my car to the dyno - I hadn't researched anything on the dip I was feeling in power before then. So I went in armed with an OBDII reader while it ran the dyno run.

HUGE dip starting right at 4k rpm and usually done by 5k rpm. Related to your original note - the one time, we ran back-to-back runs instead of waiting for the intake runners to cool a bit. In the back to back run, the flat spot lasted all the way up until 5700 rpm. So MUCH more drastic (it was interesting to note that when warm, the ECU changed the AFR quite a bit richer than it was when cool). So, over that whole rev range - power was down approximately 20hp vs where it would be with a smooth curve.

Using the logging of the OBDII reader, I could see the ignition timing jump from around 18-20deg BTDC all the way down to 7d BTDC in the 4k-5k range. This does seem to follow the knock sensor problems explained in the SIB 12 17 05, and the timing drop corresponded exactly to the dyno curve drop.

Now, I have had my ECU flashed with a performance chip (evosport did the upgrade). I have no idea how great their s/w is (I did it long before conforti came out with their shark for the ZHP...and I do not remember whether Dinan was available then). So now I have to consider whether to reflash it back to stock before sending it in or not.

However, my question to the others out there is....do I go ahead and just replace the DISA valve too? The original SIB 12 209 05 listed that as a culprit (and I suppose BMW in order to save money simply changed the knock S/W to ignore the DISA noises so they don't have to replace them). So if one does the DISA change - and not the S/W will the ECU re-adapt over time and NOT retard the ignition?

I also read in a few places that there is a replacement exhaust cam sensor (mine's the original from 2003 I'm sure) - and that should also help with the problem. But information on that is much more scarce.

Thanks!

[Sockethead]

I'm not sure if there was a re-design of the disa valve. At the very least you should remove it and inspect it. Since the shaft is a known weak point.

I'm thinking the the redesign of the cam sensor was more for reliability than anything else. Again, not sure if it could fail without throwing at least a soft code... That's how my intake cam sensor went...