ZHP values rising. At what point do you just get an M3 ?

[Quantico]

Hello , scott from wisconsin here. I have been car shopping since before the covid car curse. I have an old e36 but it rusty and an automatic so not that interesting. So i met someone with a ZHP and was impressed. Seems a great car and great value....but when prices started to almost double in the last 18 months.. at least on the bmw and porsche 996 that interested me I just stopped and wondered if the bubble will continue ?? Or will values drop back to what I considered more normal..
So I am in need of a fun car and have funds available but am not willing to pay crazy levels of money.
So at what point does getting a M3 instead start to make more sense? I think the ZHP would bd awesome for my needs, but the M3 is more a standard car that people understand. I think the M3 value might be easier to figure out in a year or two to purchase, and might bd easier to figure out if I sell it in 15 years when I am too old to have fun anymore.
Your opinions would be appreciated. In no way am I saying a ZHP is not awesome by itself.

[BADCLOWN]

all car prices are going up, clean/well sorted/taken care of M3s are going for stupid money. and they were going for stupid money before the used car market got...……….stupid. prices will go down when the dealerships start getting more inventory back.

I don't think ZHP prices will sink as I believe the prices have steadily been going up, same goes for the M3 market. But both are appreciating in value.

[san]

A low mileage well sorted zhp and a not well taken care of SMG M3 are in the same ball park price wise. If purchase budget and maintenance budget allows and you don’t need 4 doors then I would get the M3. IMO now seems like a good time to get on the M3 train before even the bad examples start to command high prices.
But if you plan on driving lots, then don’t bother paying a premium and getting a low mileage example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[t.er]

Can't really be compared, IMO. I know there are those $25K ZHPs on BaT but I'd say those don't count, they are outliers. A decently sorted ZHP will be ~$10-15K at most, for that price you'd be looking at an SMG M3 that needs a some work. After said work is done, you're no longer into the car for $15K, more like $20K+. And you'd have to spend even more money to do a manual swap

[BMWCurves]

Rovert will tell you if he were getting back into the E46 game (ignoring his M3), he' likely go for a ZHP over an M3.

[Galapolis]

My buddy got a manual M3 convertible 2 years ago for $12k with 100k miles. Let's just say he should've listened to my advice on getting a ZHP for that money instead.

[Rovert]

Rovert will tell you if he were getting back into the E46 game (ignoring his M3), he' likely go for a ZHP over an M3.

This.....99%. LOL

Your $15K ZHP to run it is probably an $18k ZHP in a few years in regards to running it. While a $15k M3 will balloon into a $30k+ M3 due to added maintenance. To some it's a drop in the bucket to have that clout while others would rather sell their kidney and donate 3 fingers/toes to have that ///M clout. I could do without out. But now that I've gone all in, she's a keeper. LOL

[t.er]

This.....99%. LOL

Your $15K ZHP to run it is probably an $18k ZHP in a few years in regards to running it. While a $15k M3 will balloon into a $30k+ M3 due to added maintenance. To some it's a drop in the bucket to have that clout while others would rather sell their kidney and donate 3 fingers/toes to have that ///M clout. I could do without out. But now that I've gone all in, she's a keeper. LOL

I'd never sell that Estoril beauty:wub best colour, hands-down

[cakM3]

I'd never sell that Estoril beauty:wub best colour, hands-down
I agree here. Trevor you should keep your M3 forever :thumbsup

For discussion sake, I say why not have both? I wouldn't have it any other way and am glad I happen to have a ZHP and M3, both of which are 2004 6MT models ;)

[Reasoned1]

Lucky bastard…

[cakM3]

Lucky bastard…

Thanks! Just take a look at my project thread for TiAg M3 Project thread and Mystic Blue ZHP project thread (links below in my sig)... I'm in the process of rescuing/restoring my Mystic Blue ZHP.... :)

[GeorgeH]

IMO it comes down to mainly 2 things.

1. Do you want to DIY maintenance and repairs... if so then the M3 is not that more expensive compared to a ZHP IF it even is. At the same purchase price the M3 will likely need more "work" but the dollar investment for parts is probably on par with what you would put into a ZHP at the same level of needed maintenance. If you are paying someone to work on the car the M3 will be considerably more expensive

2. Do you want more than 2 doors? At this point I see no reason to buy a ZHP coupe, but if you want a sedan there's only one option...

[BMWCurves]

IMO it comes down to mainly 2 things.

1. Do you want to DIY maintenance and repairs... if so then the M3 is not that more expensive compared to a ZHP IF it even is. At the same purchase price the M3 will likely need more "work" but the dollar investment for parts is probably on par with what you would put into a ZHP at the same level of needed maintenance. If you are paying someone to work on the car the M3 will be considerably more expensive

2. Do you want more than 2 doors? At this point I see no reason to buy a ZHP coupe, but if you want a sedan there's only one option...

*Sad coupe noises*

[t.er]

*Sad coupe noises*

hahahaha..... but the coupes just have that much of a sexier look!

[GeorgeH]

*Sad coupe noises*


hahahaha..... but the coupes just have that much of a sexier look!

I mean if you spend $12k on a ZHP coupe and $15k on a M3 (and they are in similar condition) if you DIY the maintenance/repairs the delta when the cars are "sorted" is so much higher.

M3s get a bad rap of being more expensive because the labor is MUCH higher for some items, but overall parts costs compared between the two is not that different.

Don't get me wrong though they are still both different driving experienced with their own pluses and minuses but when you question is I'm spending X why don't I buy a M3 then it seems like a financial question and not an emotional one.

[t.er]

I mean if you spend $12k on a ZHP coupe and $15k on a M3 (and they are in similar condition) if you DIY the maintenance/repairs the delta when the cars are "sorted" is so much higher.

M3s get a bad rap of being more expensive because the labor is MUCH higher for some items, but overall parts costs compared between the two is not that different.

Don't get me wrong though they are still both different driving experienced with their own pluses and minuses but when you question is I'm spending X why don't I buy a M3 then it seems like a financial question and not an emotional one.

The thing is, it is (or was) financial. I guess perhaps with ZHP prices being as insane as they are right now, that may be somewhat true. For what I'm using my car for an M3 would be more suitable. But I bought my ZHP for $6.2K USD back in 2015 and there's no way I'd get an M3 in the same condition as mine for even double that price. For sure, labour is much higher (rod bearings being a good example, and not needing to be done on the ZHPs) but it's still a pretty involved job and not something that even some of the most avid DIY-ers would want to tackle.

[Rovert]

Also fixing the RACP if it hasn’t been done/done properly, redoing the VANOS bits that can cause the engine to grenade itself, adjusting valves then just having a high strung engine that will wear faster than an M54.

Driver mod is far more enjoyable to be a beast driver in a ZHP than having an ///M badge and scared to explode your car or lose control and crash. The M bites and she can bite you hard. Hopefully anyone that does get one gets excited to get more driver training in drifting and rear end control. When you can get at peace with it, the M3 is extremely rewarding but that comes at a higher price and a higher consequence.

Yeah I see long long term the M can potentially be of great resale value. If you want to purchase a pavement princess. But if you want to drive that thing and experience it in every situation imaginable, don’t bet on resale.

[GeorgeH]

The thing is, it is (or was) financial. I guess perhaps with ZHP prices being as insane as they are right now, that may be somewhat true. For what I'm using my car for an M3 would be more suitable. But I bought my ZHP for $6.2K USD back in 2015 and there's no way I'd get an M3 in the same condition as mine for even double that price. For sure, labour is much higher (rod bearings being a good example, and not needing to be done on the ZHPs) but it's still a pretty involved job and not something that even some of the most avid DIY-ers would want to tackle.

In 2017 I bought my 2003 Alpine/Black 6MT M3 with 130k for $8k, we both aren't finding either of those cars in those conditions for those prices anymore so I'm not sure that's a valid comaprison.

Every M54 with 125K+ has had an oil pan gasket or will need one in the future. At that point the costs are exactly the same as a S54, adding bearings is less than $1k if paying a shop or as cheap as a couple hundred if DIY. I've literally done 100+ (maybe 200+ as I worked for BMW during the recalls) and really anyone who can get the pan off can do bearings.


Also fixing the RACP if it hasn’t been done/done properly, redoing the VANOS bits that can cause the engine to grenade itself, adjusting valves then just having a high strung engine that will wear faster than an M54.

RACP - both cars would benefit from diff and subframe bushings at these ages so dropping the subframe is a wash. Plates are a couple hundred and a mobile welder could install for less than $500 for a DIY install, again costs of M3 over ZHP less than $1000 for this repair.

BUT, the ZHP is going to need a CCV overhaul or M56 conversion which the M3 doesn't. The B30 will also need coolant pipes under the intake, and potentially a DISA valve. Cooling systems are much more failure prone and catastrophic with the M54. NA power is pretty much maxed out on the B30, there is some to be gained but the same money spent on a S54 gains more power. The ZHP doesn't have a LSD (but likely the M3s is tired at this mileage so that's a wash). Clutches for the 420g are cheaper (but the S6-37 does shift better IMO). Vanos, most ppl are overhauling there M54 vanos, the price and work to do a S54 is not THAT much more at that point too as well as the potential for a complete valve cover replacement on the M54 vs the metal S54.




Driver mod is far more enjoyable to be a beast driver in a ZHP than having an ///M badge and scared to explode your car or lose control and crash. The M bites and she can bite you hard. Hopefully anyone that does get one gets excited to get more driver training in drifting and rear end control. When you can get at peace with it, the M3 is extremely rewarding but that comes at a higher price and a higher consequence.

Yeah I see long long term the M can potentially be of great resale value. If you want to purchase a pavement princess. But if you want to drive that thing and experience it in every situation imaginable, don’t bet on resale.

The original question was in reference to value. I tracked my basic bolt on ZHP a decent amount and it was a great car, I recommend anyone who wants to get into HPDE's to buy a B30 E46. With that said nowadays when you are in faster run groups it's very easy to get stuck behind someone in the corners but not have enough HP to go around them on the straights. There are so many big power HPDE capable cars that it's hard to show up in an 'A' run group with a 3400lbs, 200whp car and not be giving point by's left and right. I traded the ZHP for a gutted touring with a B25 and it was a hoot, but a tracks like CoTA I can't pass anyone on the straights and get stuck behind cars in the corners, the touring now has a S54 in it.

****Edit... I don't mean to imply one car is better than the other, I'm just saying that when the purchase prices are similar that the operating costs are not that far a part for a DIY mechanic. I think the debate over ZHP vs M3 will never be settled, but let's be honest all of these cars are primarily an emotional decision so value is in the holder of the keys... which is why I drive a touring haha

https://live.staticflickr.com/4916/45351431245_0f2573cf3b_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c6xWun)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49052713902_1e7dd679c2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hJBYSA)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51217073432_a73394311c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m2STyd)

[cakM3]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51217073432_a73394311c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m2STyd)

I like your touring George! :thumbsup

[t.er]

In 2017 I bought my 2003 Alpine/Black 6MT M3 with 130k for $8k, we both aren't finding either of those cars in those conditions for those prices anymore so I'm not sure that's a valid comaprison.

You just got real lucky with your purchase and I don't think the price you paid is a good example for ZHP vs M3 prices even back in the day - you could barely find an SMG M3 vert for that much back then. Back in 2015, $7K got you this bucket of bolts (https://jalopnik.com/how-to-buy-and-sell-a-bmw-e46-m3-for-profit-without-rea-1638078752). If the price difference wasn't as significant as it was, I probably would've considered an M3.

Definitely jealous of your find though. Alpine white 6MT is a beautiful colour - I don't know what crack the seller was on to price it like that, but all the more power to you lol

[GeorgeH]

I like your touring George! :thumbsup

Thanks! It doesn't have the velocity stacks anymore and it's all one color... I need to update my journal thread, maybe tonight. :)


You just got real lucky with your purchase and I don't think the price you paid is a good example for ZHP vs M3 prices even back in the day - you could barely find an SMG M3 vert for that much back then. Back in 2015, $7K got you this bucket of bolts (https://jalopnik.com/how-to-buy-and-sell-a-bmw-e46-m3-for-profit-without-rea-1638078752). If the price difference wasn't as significant as it was, I probably would've considered an M3.

Definitely jealous of your find though. Alpine white 6MT is a beautiful colour - I don't know what crack the seller was on to price it like that, but all the more power to you lol

Fair, it was a trade in at the dealer I worked at because it was misdiagnosed as needing a transmission (by the owner, the pivot pin was broken and intermittently it would grind when pushing in the clutch). I did the RACP, bearings, vanos, clutch and some other "minor" things and sold it with around 140k (iirc) for $16k 3yrs ago and it took a little bit.

Also I did have a SMG Imola M3 before that, the previous owner tried to change the clutch himself. The SMG wouldn't adapt and he thought it had a bad hydraulic unit. I bought it for $4500 iirc and it turned out the clutch was damaged and wouldn't disengage. I 6MT swapped it and kept it for a couple years and when I sold it, it had similar miles and condition to the alpine car with RB and Vanos done and I had to work to sell that one for $12k. You aren't going to find that deal either.

But I do see SMG cars misdiagnosed all the time, deals are out there if you know what to look for, just not as prevalent as they were. (*Side note, I've converted maybe 10 or so M3s from SMG to 6MT, and the majority of them were misdiagnosed as needing a hydraulic unit and they all could have been fixed for less than $500 in parts. Misdiagnosed by their owners or other shops, I generally like to diagnose them before I swap to learn more about the failure modes whether the customer specifically asked for it or not). 3yrs ago I could go buy an M3 coupe for $5-6 within a week or two of searching, convertible SMG were even cheaper. And when looking for a donor, I could buy a wrecked M3 off of CL or FB for $3-4k.

SMG verts can still be found for $8-9k right now. The S54 touring I am building the customers donor car was a 90k SMG vert he bought off a used car lot for less than $10 (it did have a salvaged title, but had been repaired, albeit not perfectly).

Either way the days of those cars being priced like that are over and not valid to compare to today's market as your $6,200 ZHP then isn't that now just like all of my M3s are worth more now too.

[GeorgeH]

Back in 2015, $7K got you this bucket of bolts (https://jalopnik.com/how-to-buy-and-sell-a-bmw-e46-m3-for-profit-without-rea-1638078752).

I read that article years ago and just glanced through it again. IMO that car wasn't worth $7k then and probably isn't worth it now unless it had really low mileage (which I didn't see stated in the article but may have missed).

[Galapolis]

My buddy bought a 2006 manual M3 vert for $12k with about 100k miles about 2 years ago. Enthusiast owned and maintained with good service records. I think GeorgeH is the exception here, because that M3 has been a very expensive car for my buddy to own. We both do mostly DIY stuff with occasional visits to a local Indy for stuff we can't do. Labor costs are actually no different. Wouldn't make sense for them to be since the chassis and the way parts attach to it are mostly the same (the engine is a different matter). It's actually the parts that are more expensive because so many of them are M-specific. In many cases, they are double the price compared to my 330i. For example M3 Lemförder control arms are $240 a piece vs. my $110 a piece Lemförder control arms. Dampers are also more expensive.

Not to mention that the S54 also requires much more involved preventative maintenance than the M54. Rod bearings are obviously the big thing everyone talks about, but my friend also didn't replace his timing chain guides preventatively which led to him almost grenading his engine when they failed. They need to be replaced by the fixed Beisan aftermarket part, and that's anything but an easy job. Fixing the VANOS on the S54 is also a matter of spending triple digits as opposed to a measly $60 on the M54. Sure, the M54 needs an upgraded DISA valve, but that's a walk in the park compared to the S54 stuff I listed. And that doesn't even include the periodic valve adjustments yet, or more mundane stuff like gas mileage/fuel costs.

All in all, pretty much every step of his journey has cost my friend double what I pay for my 330i. And yes, my friend did pay a shop for stuff like rod bearings but you can't reasonably expect the average enthusiast to be able to do that so it's pretty much always gonna be an upfront cost when purchasing a M3. I'm glad that the M3 worked out for GeorgeH, but I don't want people reading this in the future to think that they will automatically have the same experience. If you are outside the US, road taxes and insurance can also be prohibitively expensive for a M3.

[GeorgeH]

First, I am only replying because I find this a healthy conversation about the running costs and values of our cars. Secondly, I certainly am not the best at understanding the E46 market, but I try to follow it at length. I have multiple S54/ZHP donor cars that will some day get turned into ZHP/S54 touring or S54 sedans, etc so I am needing to be aware of my costs vs the price of these cars as I will eventually sell and my labor is worth something in that regards. I realize everyone including myself have their own opinion of value but with that said I think we should compare real world numbers.


My buddy bought a 2006 manual M3 vert for $12k with about 100k miles about 2 years ago. Enthusiast owned and maintained with good service records. I think GeorgeH is the exception here, because that M3 has been a very expensive car for my buddy to own. We both do mostly DIY stuff with occasional visits to a local Indy for stuff we can't do. Labor costs are actually no different. Wouldn't make sense for them to be since the chassis and the way parts attach to it are mostly the same (the engine is a different matter). It's actually the parts that are more expensive because so many of them are M-specific. In many cases, they are double the price compared to my 330i. For example M3 Lemförder control arms are $240 a piece vs. my $110 a piece Lemförder control arms. Dampers are also more expensive.

FCPEuro for DIY pricing:
ZHP: $413.83 control arms and bushings, Lemforder
M3: $569.96 control arms and bushings, Lemforder *Note this kit uses Lemforder control arm bushings that come pre-pressed into the brackets, you can buy BMW bushings for less and press them into the original brackets.

Labor would be the same for both of these cars at my shop.




Not to mention that the S54 also requires much more involved preventative maintenance than the M54. Rod bearings are obviously the big thing everyone talks about,

Oil Pan gskt for a M54 in my Shop: $910.08
S54 rod bearings: $2044.63

Both of those jobs use all BMW parts incl a steering coupler and aftermarket engine mounts. IF you DIY'd those and bought from FCP it could be as cheap as:
Oil Pan gskt for a M54: $36.50 for comparable parts in the S54 kit to do just the pan gasket on this one.
S54 rod bearings: $361.97 https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-s54-connecting-rod-bearing-kit-1124783440kt1



but my friend also didn't replace his timing chain guides preventatively which led to him almost grenading his engine when they failed. They need to be replaced by the fixed Beisan aftermarket part, and that's anything but an easy job. Fixing the VANOS on the S54 is also a matter of spending triple digits as opposed to a measly $60 on the M54.

The vanos issue on the S54 is not from chain guides failing, but multiple other reasons. 1. The high pressure oil pump in the vanos breaks and part of it can fall into the timing chain and cause severe engine damage (simply put). 2. The cam sprocket bolts and become loose and back out.

M54 Vanos at my shop: $846.88, but depending on mileage I'd recommend a new valve cover which would change the total to $1330.70
S54 Vanos at my shop: $2001.08 (note this includes valve adjustment)

Both these jobs have a decent sized parts list so instead of listing the FCP pricing (which is overall cheaper than what I charge) here is the parts costs with no labor for those jobs (w/o tax):
M54 Vanos w/o valve cover: $259.30, w/valve cover: $706.33
S54 Vanos: $973.17



Sure, the M54 needs an upgraded DISA valve, but that's a walk in the park compared to the S54 stuff I listed.

DISA on FCPEuro: $351.49 https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/330i/?year=2004&m=20&e=180&t=6&b=5&d=589&v=&keywords=11617544805

$510.82 installed at my shop

CCVV kit on FCPEuro: $198.13 https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-cold-climate-pcv-breather-system-comprehensive-m54b30coldkit

$496.76 installed at my shop, but I didn't use their exact parts list as we don't need the cold weather kit down south and there are some misc parts that include that I don't feel are necessary, but it was any easy parts kit to select.



And that doesn't even include the periodic valve adjustments yet,

You can buy a valve adjustment kit from FCP for about $76, if you are like some people and will reuse the valve cover gaskets then the only cost is the valve shims if you need more from the kit they are $3.09 BMW brand (each) on FCP https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/M3/?year=2005&m=20&e=196&t=6&b=9&d=600&v=&keywords=11347832285

I charge $745.24 for a valve adjustment, but that also gets you new gaskets.



or more mundane stuff like gas mileage/fuel costs.

My M3s will usually do 25+mpg on the hwy and a couple less than my ZHP in town.



All in all, pretty much every step of his journey has cost my friend double what I pay for my 330i. And yes, my friend did pay a shop for stuff like rod bearings but you can't reasonably expect the average enthusiast to be able to do that so it's pretty much always gonna be an upfront cost when purchasing a M3.

I don't expect the average enthusiast to be able to do rod bearings, but that's because of the intimidation or work space situation more than anything. A lot of my clients are avid DIYers and I am often blown away by the go get itness of these guys doing jobs in poor work environments with inferior equipment that I wouldn't want to do, lol. But really if you can successfully swap an engine, you can do rod bearings, it's just a very scary job on the surface (I used that as an example because I see a decent amount of engine swaps on this site).



I'm glad that the M3 worked out for GeorgeH, but I don't want people reading this in the future to think that they will automatically have the same experience. If you are outside the US, road taxes and insurance can also be prohibitively expensive for a M3.

I agree, as I originally stated if you are paying someone to do the work there is a difference, if you are DIYing it's not that much:



IMO it comes down to mainly 2 things.

1. Do you want to DIY maintenance and repairs... if so then the M3 is not that more expensive compared to a ZHP IF it even is. At the same purchase price the M3 will likely need more "work" but the dollar investment for parts is probably on par with what you would put into a ZHP at the same level of needed maintenance. If you are paying someone to work on the car the M3 will be considerably more expensive


***Note I thought this was an interesting exercise to compare so common repairs between the two cars. If anyone has some other jobs to compare I'd be happy to estimate them or look up the parts pricing.

[Galapolis]

You seem to be very locked onto your specific experience, so I just want to offer my specific experience to show the other side of the story. I don't mean to discredit you at all, just want to continue the conversation like you said.



FCPEuro for DIY pricing:
ZHP: $413.83 control arms and bushings, Lemforder
M3: $569.96 control arms and bushings, Lemforder *Note this kit uses Lemforder control arm bushings that come pre-pressed into the brackets, you can buy BMW bushings for less and press them into the original brackets.


I just went with the standard control arms which are about $110 a piece. I haven't had any issues or wear with them in the last 50k miles. Yes, the MSport arms more expensive, but at least you have the TRW option for $292 if you need to save a buck. The M3 doesn't have any cheaper options unfortunately.



Oil Pan gskt for a M54 in my Shop: $910.08
S54 rod bearings: $2044.63

Both of those jobs use all BMW parts incl a steering coupler and aftermarket engine mounts. IF you DIY'd those and bought from FCP it could be as cheap as:
Oil Pan gskt for a M54: $36.50 for comparable parts in the S54 kit to do just the pan gasket on this one.
S54 rod bearings: $361.97 https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-s54-connecting-rod-bearing-kit-1124783440kt1


I consider oil pan gasket and rod bearings two different jobs. On my car it has cost me $0 as it has not required a new oil pan gasket or had any leaks in that area since I bought it 4 years ago. I've since put over 50k miles on it. The oil pan gasket is something I've seen a lot of people (including on this forum) do themselves. Rod bearings, not so much. So the real world situation will often (not always of course), end up being a $37 cost for the 330i owner and a $2k cost for the M3 owner (if I go off your shop pricing). I'll admit, you could turn that $37 cost into a $237 cost because typically a DIYer would also do the oil pump when replacing the oil pan gasket on a 330i. Still, cheaper than the M3 cost.



The vanos issue on the S54 is not from chain guides failing, but multiple other reasons.


I don't understand, where do I say that the VANOS and timing chain guides are connected?



M54 Vanos at my shop: $846.88, but depending on mileage I'd recommend a new valve cover which would change the total to $1330.70
S54 Vanos at my shop: $2001.08 (note this includes valve adjustment)


VANOS was $60 for me because it is a very easy job on the M54. Everyone will be different, but just from seeing other builds, it seems like most enthusiasts have no problems doing it on the M54. The S54 procedure is significantly more complicated (http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/s54_vanos_procedure.htm), which is probably why, for example, people sell refurbished S54 VANOS kits on E46Fanatics where all the hard work is already done. Even after returning the core, these units are in the region of $1000.

So like I previously stated, I'm viewing the situation form a very pragmatic perspective. What will end up happening is that in many cases (not always), the 330i owner will be left with a $60 bill and an afternoon of DIYing, whereas that same enthusiast might likely choose this $750-1350 option (https://www.e46fanatics.com/threads/s54-bulletproofed-vanos-units-cryo-treated-exhaust-hubs.1099412/#post-16918911) as a middle ground between DIY and bringing their car to a shop. Luckily my buddy's M3 has had the VANOS resolved by the previous owner, so he saved himself that hassle.

You might not be aware of this, but the S54 has an issue with timing chain guides breaking because they are plastic and become brittle over time. This is what happened to my friend's M3. This can cause engine failure if the timing chain slips. Apparently it is a common issue. I did not know about this either as it's not really talked about often like rod bearings are. Luckily a solution is provided by Beisan (https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/main-forum/e46-2001-2006/636-beisan-s54-exhaust-upper-chain-guide-solution). I actually offered my friend to help him do this job as a DIY, but he refused and brought it to a shop instead. I can understand his hesitation with timing-related items, that is something many people prefer not to mess with. I admit, that cost is definitely on him since he could've had the job done for free.



DISA on FCPEuro: $351.49 https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/330i/?year=2004&m=20&e=180&t=6&b=5&d=589&v=&keywords=11617544805
$510.82 installed at my shop
CCVV kit on FCPEuro: $198.13 https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-cold-climate-pcv-breather-system-comprehensive-m54b30coldkit


DISA is a $70 repair and again, very easy and quick to do yourself: https://germanautosolutions.com/store/bmw-m54-30l-disa-repair-and-upgrade-kit/ You see people ordering/installing these kits all the time.

I have not had to replace the CCV yet. It's less of an issue if you warm up your engine fully every drive. Unfortunately even 15 minutes of driving is not enough to fully warm up the oil. Something to keep in mind.



You can buy a valve adjustment kit from FCP for about $76, if you are like some people and will reuse the valve cover gaskets then the only cost is the valve shims if you need more from the kit they are $3.09 BMW brand (each) on FCP https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/M3/?year=2005&m=20&e=196&t=6&b=9&d=600&v=&keywords=11347832285

I charge $745.24 for a valve adjustment, but that also gets you new gaskets.


Valve adjustments are definitely not something that the average enthusiast can/would do themselves. And since it's a recurring cost too, it will really add up over time. This alone puts the M3 out of my personal budget. I had to push my friend to get his done. It's definitely more affordable to replace the CCV every 100k or so. Especially versus a valve adjustment every 30k miles.



My M3s will usually do 25+mpg on the hwy and a couple less than my ZHP in town.


My friend gets about 24mpg hwy. My 330i sits at 30mpg hwy and currently 26mpg average with about 20mpg around town. I've been able to confirm the mileage as the furthest I've ever driven on a tank was 468 miles before the light came on. This was 99% highway of course (roadtrip to Nashville).

Most importantly it doesn't use that much gas either when pushed harder, probably due to the low revving engine. The M3 can become quite thirsty in performance situations. 5mpg is also definitely a significant difference for hwy.

Overall I just don't agree on a 330i and M3 being comparable. Again, I'm not discrediting your experience, and like you said, I'm not an E46 market expert either, but I do consider your case to be a lucky one. It's also a different dynamic because you are clearly a very experienced mechanic who runs his own shop and business, which can not be said of most E46 owners, regardless of which model they own. You can argue about the prices and it's very much possible to spend more on keeping a ZHP running than a M3 if you go all out on the restoration process, but I do stand by my opinion that on average, the M3 is a far greater investment in money, time and effort than a 330i or ZHP. I guess it comes down to whether or not you are willing to take the risk. The M3 driving experience is certainly sublime and a league above the ZHP, but as I said, that does come with its price.

Also some fun facts that I think you might appreciate that also highlight how different experiences can be: I frequent the German forums a lot and over there, the M54 rod bearings are considered a big issue as well since they need to be replaced on many cars by the time they hit 150k miles. I've heard various explanations as to why this is the case, from different gas/oil quality to oil change intervals to Autobahn use. Either way it seems like US M54s are safe from rod bearing issues. Also, engine rebuilds are far more common in Germany and I've read that many M3 owners opt to rebuild their engines every 40k miles, which usually includes stuff like piston rings, timing chain (including all guides), VANOS, bearings etc.

[Reasoned1]

Any hopes I had of getting an M3 have been dispelled.

[Will]

Many good points and perspectives shared already. Just adding my experience owning both as a DIYer.

The cliff notes: m3's slightly more expensive. But no need to be scared off for cost or complexity.

For the DIYer, I think the price difference stems mostly from parts prices, with some from running costs. Labor prices will vary, and thanks to GeorgeH for posting some data points.

And although the m3 parts prices are expensive, we're not talking Porsche prices (maybe Charlie can speak to that comparison since he own all three). Also, most of these parts are long lasting (maybe 100k mile items, like FCA and dampers) so it amortizes out (it hurts less).

In terms of DIY difficulty / involvement, I don't think it's much different between zhp and m3. I've DIY'd extensively for both.

Prior to doing rod bearings, my DIY experience was limited to suspension, oil change, cooling system, OPG, and VANOS - the "external stuff".
Rod bearings were daunting, but the hardest part of the rod bearings was getting over the fear that I screwed something up. Other than that, if someone can do a OPG, then it's "just" 12 more bolts (and a 3-step tightening sequence that must be adhered to). Many DIY guides exist, especially when m3f was still around. I used one by a member named SYT_Shadow (or something like that), but the TIS is always better.

I think replacing the clutch and flywheel was more of a PITA - I'm doing everything on jack stands.

Sure, the VANOS procedure for the m3 is more involved, but it's just more steps, not like it requires machining. Still very DIY-able. The most daunting thing was to have the cams properly timed and the crank pinned at TDC. Again, follow the steps in the DIYs. Many people have the timing bridge and the crank pin for loan (if someone needs to borrow one, hit me up).

Both of these items are basically once and done things (rod bearings maybe every 100-150k miles, depending on your usage and risk tolerance).

The valve adjustment is more time consuming than difficult. The consensus seems to be use a OE BMW VCG (some suspect it's viton) and you can reuse without leaks. I just get a Victor Reinz or Elring and no leaks. Surprisingly my valve lash was within spec the last two times I've checked, let's see what it is next time. It was expensive to buy the BMW shim kit (~$250 back in the day), but it was later discovered by forum members that there's a Wiseco kit with all of the shims in the proper size, it's like $50. Take precautions to prevent dropping a shim. Be diligent, that's all.


For the m3, IMO, it basically comes down to a couple things that I think are essentials:

VANOS + rattle kit + chain guide,
Rod bearings,
RACP ("subframe") reinforcement.



For the ZHP, IMO, it's:

DISA,
VANOS + rattle kit,
CCV / m56 VC,
Cooling system
RACP (if driven hard, but for regular highway cruisers it's probably not necessary).



The rest are maintenance items or timed out d/t mileage (e.g. dampers, fluids, etc), for both cars.

Again, most of the cost difference is parts prices (for the DIYer), and things are more DIY-able than people seem to think. If paying someone for the work, it's probably a different story.

As for running costs, my registration is about $20/yr difference between the two. Insurance is definitely more expensive in the m3.

Fuel consumption difference:
Mixed use: 18-19.5 mpg for the m3, and 19-20 mpg for the zhp. Similar useage. Not a significant difference for me.
All highway, it's a bigger difference, but it's not earth shattering. When I go from socal to portland, it's 1000 miles, I'm averaging 27-30 mpg in the zhp and 24-26 mpg in the m3. But again, I do this drive maybe once a year. So it's really negligible. We're not talking Rovert with his diesel mileage!

What I notice / appreciate about each:

ZHP:
- As I'm getting older, ZHP is more comfortable. Both for daily use and for long drives. The springs rates are lower, the damper valving is more supple, and the exhause noise is lower. The m3 is not uncomfortable, but the zhp is slightly more comfortable.
- The ZHP is a great car, without any real complaints.
- Great looks. The subtle difference from a non-zhp is dramatic, to me. I think it's one of the best looking cars.

M3:
- The extra 100 hp in the m3 is wonderful to have.
- The car as a whole feels more eager to go or turn.
- The noise of the s54 running to 8k rpm is glorious. Its induction noise, intoxicating. It's unique.

Basically, I think the m3 is as DIY-able as the m54 cars. Now, whether someone DIYs their m3 is a different question.

I just wish my zhp was a sedan rather than coupe, then I wouldn't be thinking about selling it.

[Rovert]

M3:
- The car as a whole feels more eager to go or turn.


I wish I could find an M3 that had better turn-in than my ZHP Sedan without fold down seats. I feel the S54 partial-iron block weights the front down a bit and turns the vehicle into a high-speed GT car vs the ZHP feeling like a go kart. The slow steering rack of the M3 is huge difference compared to how quick the ZHP ratio is. I swapped to an expensive ZHP rack on my M but it still didn’t work as much as I hoped. The ratio is about half that of the ZHP because of different tie rod lengths.

I’ve driven countless E46Ms, but none have felt as nimble like my old ZHP. That’s probably the one thing that makes me miss my ZHP the most. The closest feeling BMW I’ve driven is an E82 135i.

One thing that is noticeable with the extra S54 power is the ability to make larger steering adjustment via throttle. It’s a riot being the stereotypical M driver at times!

The E90D I have feels faster to turn-in than my M3 but still slower than the ZHP. I just installed Bilstein coilovers tonight and can’t wait to get it properly aligned and ride height dialed in to hopefully get it closer to ZHP go-kartness.

[cakM3]

I wish I could find an M3 that had better turn-in than my ZHP Sedan without fold down seats. I feel the S54 partial-iron block weights the front down a bit and turns the vehicle into a high-speed GT car vs the ZHP feeling like a go kart. The slow steering rack of the M3 is huge difference compared to how quick the ZHP ratio is. I swapped to an expensive ZHP rack on my M but it still didn’t work as much as I hoped. The ratio is about half that of the ZHP because of different tie rod lengths.

I’ve driven countless E46Ms, but none have felt as nimble like my old ZHP. That’s probably the one thing that makes me miss my ZHP the most. The closest feeling BMW I’ve driven is an E82 135i.

One thing that is noticeable with the extra S54 power is the ability to make larger steering adjustment via throttle. It’s a riot being the stereotypical M driver at times!

The E90D I have feels faster to turn-in than my M3 but still slower than the ZHP. I just installed Bilstein coilovers tonight and can’t wait to get it properly aligned and ride height dialed in to hopefully get it closer to ZHP go-kartness.

Thanks Trevor :thumbsup

After reading your comment above, I'm glad I got myself another ZHP although the one I got needs a lot of love... I'm still glad to have another ZHP in my stable. Especially after reading this comment :)

[Will]

I wish I could find an M3 that had better turn-in than my ZHP Sedan without fold down seats. I feel the S54 partial-iron block weights the front down a bit and turns the vehicle into a high-speed GT car vs the ZHP feeling like a go kart. The slow steering rack of the M3 is huge difference compared to how quick the ZHP ratio is. I swapped to an expensive ZHP rack on my M but it still didn’t work as much as I hoped. The ratio is about half that of the ZHP because of different tie rod lengths.

I’ve driven countless E46Ms, but none have felt as nimble like my old ZHP. That’s probably the one thing that makes me miss my ZHP the most. The closest feeling BMW I’ve driven is an E82 135i.

One thing that is noticeable with the extra S54 power is the ability to make larger steering adjustment via throttle. It’s a riot being the stereotypical M driver at times!

The E90D I have feels faster to turn-in than my M3 but still slower than the ZHP. I just installed Bilstein coilovers tonight and can’t wait to get it properly aligned and ride height dialed in to hopefully get it closer to ZHP go-kartness.


I didn't notice that crisp turn in in the ZHP until I changed sway bars (27mm fr / Cic rear). Prior to that change it also felt to me like a swift GT car, but now it feels much more dart-y.

No arguments about that extra ~200lbs over the front axle, though. I wish those revs, hp, and noise were without that weight penalty, especially up front. This weight comparison reminds me of the e39 530i vs e39 m5, albeit one has a rack and pinion and the other with recirc ball steering.

I don't think anyone can go wrong with either car, as both are fantastic. M3 will be more expensive, without a doubt. Whether someone thinks that marginal cost is worth the marginal utility is a value judgement, and up to each person. But DIYer shouldn't be scared away from an m3.

And just to add, if my zhp were a sedan rather than a coupe I probably wouldn't consider selling it. But as a coupe, the two cars feel redundant to me... one should go (don't know which one). If the zhp wasn't such a good car this decision would be easier. I was thinking of replacing one of them with a F30 or F31 diesel.

[t.er]

Ha, when I swapped to the 30 mm front bar, turn-in was insanely sharp!



And just to add, if my zhp were a sedan rather than a coupe I probably wouldn't consider selling it. But as a coupe, the two cars feel redundant to me... one should go (don't know which one). If the zhp wasn't such a good car this decision would be easier.

No contest man... keep the M3. It's Imola right? And a manual, just such a great combo. Your ZHP being auto makes it no contest. 6MT M3 + F31 touring diesel would be such a great combo!

[Will]

Ha, when I swapped to the 30 mm front bar, turn-in was insanely sharp!



No contest man... keep the M3. It's Imola right? And a manual, just such a great combo. Your ZHP being auto makes it no contest. 6MT M3 + F31 touring diesel would be such a great combo!

LOL. I can't imagine using a 30mm! When I first got the 27mm bar I was thinking I should swap it out for the m3's 26mm just to dial it back a tad. Then I got lazy and got used to it. Lol.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way. I'll prob hold off on buying anything though, the market's nuts.

[ItsRichieRich]

My lady recently went down memory lane and showed me pictures of the E46 M3 I bought years ago. Flew up to San Francisco and drove the car back down to San Diego. As I was laying in bed last night, I went down another rabbit hole of looking at M3s for sale. Found this one on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/544355276989366/?ref=saved&referral_code=null

Might consider taking a look at it and see if I can put my ZHP for sale if it checks out. Downside, I have a garage full of parts waiting to get installed on the ZHP.

[sillieidiot]

My lady recently went down memory lane and showed me pictures of the E46 M3 I bought years ago. Flew up to San Francisco and drove the car back down to San Diego. As I was laying in bed last night, I went down another rabbit hole of looking at M3s for sale. Found this one on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/544355276989366/?ref=saved&referral_code=null

Might consider taking a look at it and see if I can put my ZHP for sale if it checks out. Downside, I have a garage full of parts waiting to get installed on the ZHP.

That's ok, you could sell all the parts lol You could probably reuse some parts on the M3. That's what I'm doing to my friend's M3. Been selling all of his parts first. I took some of the parts that could be used in my car. Then will list his M3 soonish.

[RamTheJam]

This thread starter holds little water. It's like asking, do I want a 6 banger or 8?. To each his own. IMO .. It depends if you are a collector or just wanna feel cool guy?

[BH93]

Can't really compare the ZHP to the M3...

I've owned both a sedan ZHP and a sedan ZHP with S54 swap at the same time.
Totally different driving experiences.

The ZHP was the better commuter/daily and the S54 was more of a fun toy.
If I had to do it again I'd probably keep the ZHP as a daily and use the S54 for weekend purposes only.

Unfortunately, I daily the S54 now.

[Rovert]

Unfortunately, I daily the S54 now.

Haha. Unfortunately all your daily tasks are a potential dramatic ///M theatre.

I do like that it can also be tame. When I bought it and drove my mom to places she had no clue. She just thought it was a coupe version of my ZHP with two extra exhaust pipes. Haha!

I did launch it once with her on a back road when she wasn’t expecting it. I thought after she screamed bloody murder that I would be disowned. [emoji23] But she accepted the M into the family because it looks nice. LOL

[BMWCurves]

I did launch it once with her on a back road when she wasn’t expecting it. I thought after she screamed bloody murder that I would be disowned. [emoji23] But she accepted the M into the family because it looks nice. LOL

Trevor's mom: "I like that car. It's a nice blue. Just a very nice looking Toyota!"

[ZHPizza]

Trevor's mom: "I like that car. It's a nice blue. Just a very nice looking Toyota!"Mom's a savage

[Rovert]

Mom's a savage

She is savage. LOL. She wants to dump the Toyota Sienna now because it uses petrol. She’s on the diesel train now and wants to one up dad and I with an EV. [emoji23][emoji23]