Oil pan gasket!!! Need the famiglia's counsel...

[papa_g]

The day of reckoning is upon me as I prepare to do the OPG, as well as a bunch of other things while I am there (motor/tranny mounts, end-links, tie rods, steering coupler, tranny drain/fill). I am contemplating whether to do the job at home, or take it to a DIY garage, where I can get the car on a lift and work comfortably from my feet. Maybe this is a no-brainer, but there are some things I am considering.
- How much time can a first time OPG DIYer save by doing this on a lift? I think I can bust this out in a day, or a weekend from the garage, but if it can be done in like 4 hours from a lift, well...
- DIY garage rate is between $25 and $40 per hour. If I am there for 8+ hours, could come out pretty expensive...
- There's also the question of letting the RTV on the new gasket cure for a few hours before adding oil. Would this be a concern for you?
- Random question: I heard the bolts on the subframe need to be replaced after removal. How important is this?

Basically, I am happy to spend an extra couple hundred if it is safe and MUCH easier to have it on a lift. Thanks for the help!

[DeathTrap]

I just did it last week on the ground, in my driveway.

You probably won't save much more time doing it on the lift if it's your first time. I'd reckon I could shave off maybe 2 hours? I wasn't under the car that long. Most of the time was spent cleaning the gunk off of the engine, subframe, rack, etc. My total time was about 12 hours going at a very leisurely pace. (Replaced mounts, pan gasket, all P/S lines and fluid, oil pump o-rings, that plastic oil pump piston, pickup tube o-ring)

You could take your time doing it on the ground with no fees ticking away in the background. You could wait for the gasket to cure a bit overnight, fill with oil in the morning and make sure no leaks are present. I wouldn't worry about that too much. It would have a decent cure after you re-assemble the car.

I didn't replace my bolts. Seems fine so far. I don't believe they are torque to yield.

Also, if you are removing the steering rack and subframe completely from the car, just that alone makes the job cake!

[papa_g]

Ok, yeah I kinda figured my logic on this could be echoed by someone else. I really don't like working on my back under the car. I don't think I am claustrophobic, but I just really don't like squirming around down there, reaching for tools, realizing I forgot to grab something, slide out, slide back under, damn it I don't have enough leverage from this angle, oh God something fell in my eye but my hands are covered in oil so I can't get it out.

I didn't replace my bolts. Seems fine so far. I don't believe they are torque to yield.
ok, I will visually inspect them and make the call on the spot. Some blue thread lock should be enough, right?
Also, what was your method for cleaning the underside? Just rags, or were you able to do some proper deep cleaning?

[papa_g]

Just found another interesting problem. The RTV sealant I plan on using is VersaChem Mega Grey. It just happens to be laying around at my house, and the temperature specs are more than enough for the oil pan, so why not? Decided to take a look at the technical data sheet for this product:
http://www.itwconsumer.com/userfiles/files/techdata-sheet/VC%20Tech%20Data/99939%20TDS.pdf
Quoting the sheet: "Chemical Solvent Resistance: automotive fluids (motor oil, antifreeze mixtures and transmission fluid) Mega Grey will handle synthetic oils; but NOT IF FRICTION MODIFIERS (ADDITIVES) ARE ADDED TO THE OIL."
Well, just so happens I want to put in some liquimoly ceratec ceramic coating additive to the oil after the OPG. Has anyone ever heard of this being a problem? I will see if I can find the technical data sheets for some name brands, and see if they say the same thing.

[Sockethead]

You have an engine support bar for the job, yes? you're going to need that. You only use the sealant on a couple of corners/seams.... don't put it on the whole gasket. There are a couple of bolts for the oil pan that you get to through the bell housing. I missed one when I did mine... took a minute to figure out why the oil pan wouldn't come off. I didn't take the steering rack off, I just bungeed it out of the way.... saved a lot of time.

I know what you mean about the lift. My wife has a friend that's offered me his lift at his shop and even the service manager at the BMW dealership has offered me the lift. I hate working on the ground but I'm so paranoid that something will go wrong and I wont be able to finish the job. Plus, no matter how any tools I bring with me, there is always something I need that I don't have. I hate having to borrow tools and get stuff out of an unfamiliar tool box...Wastes time and then you have to try and remember which drawer you got their tools out of.

The one time I used her buddy's lift, I did Kristen's SSK in the M2. I brought a whole bag of my tools but still ended up having to use his tools. Then, I ran into an issue with one of the bushings that was slightly too big. That took a long time to work out. He had to leave to pick up his kids so he had to show me how to lockup his shop when I was done... Perfect example... even on a brand new car.

I will say it was a joy to be able to do that job on a lift. It took me 6 hrs to install the SSK in my e46 laying on the ground fighting one of the frozen pins that hold the shifter carrier on the transmission.

[GeorgeH]

I have done way more than 50 E36/E46 Oil pan gaskets (basically the same suspension/engine layout) and I can do one in under 2hrs if I hustle. If I take my time and clean items in an OCD manner I'm looking at 3-4 hrs minimum. Factor in the other items you want to do as well and then add a cushion for unforeseen issues like Sockethead mentioned and it could get expensive. So with that said if I was in your position I'd do it at home on the ground... but for me I'm so spoiled I'd have a hard time laying on the ground to do that job.

*Also, if you have a engine hoist you can use that in place of the engine support bar (if you don't have that).

[papa_g]

You have an engine support bar for the job, yes? you're going to need that. You only use the sealant on a couple of corners/seams.... don't put it on the whole gasket. There are a couple of bolts for the oil pan that you get to through the bell housing. I missed one when I did mine... took a minute to figure out why the oil pan wouldn't come off. I didn't take the steering rack off, I just bungeed it out of the way.... saved a lot of time.



... then add a cushion for unforeseen issues like Sockethead mentioned and it could get expensive. So with that said if I was in your position I'd do it at home on the ground... but for me I'm so spoiled I'd have a hard time laying on the ground to do that job.

*Also, if you have a engine hoist you can use that in place of the engine support bar (if you don't have that).

Yup, I actually do have an engine hoist at home. Plan on using that, unless the engine support bar is much more convenient?
Thanks for your input on this. Man the lift sounds so convenient...
About the RTV, yes it goes on the seams of the block, kinda like when you do a VCG. So despite that warning in the technical data sheet should I be good? I checked Permatex's tech data sheet for an analogous product, and it did not say anything about friction modifying additives. Still, I think I should be fine...
@sockethead, what do you mean when you said you just bungeed the steering rack out of the way?

[GeorgeH]

I use Hylomar or Permatex UltraGray. Letting them set up longer can't be a bad thing, but I wouldn't sweat it to much.

[Sockethead]

Yup, I actually do have an engine hoist at home. Plan on using that, unless the engine support bar is much more convenient?

@sockethead, what do you mean when you said you just bungeed the steering rack out of the way?

The engine support bar is more convenient because you don't have the framework and wheels of the hoist under the car and getting in the way. It can be had for $60 with a coupon at Harbor Freight.

The steering rack bolts to the cross member and you be taking the cross member out, leaving the rack to dangle unless you some rubber straps or bungee cords to keep it out of your way

[GeorgeH]

If you are taking the tie rods loose, you might as well take the p/s hoses loose and just completely removing the front subframe and rack as an assembly.

[papa_g]

The engine support bar is more convenient because you don't have the framework and wheels of the hoist under the car and getting in the way. It can be had for $60 with a coupon at Harbor Freight.

The steering rack bolts to the cross member and you be taking the cross member out, leaving the rack to dangle unless you some rubber straps or bungee cords to keep it out of your way
Ah ok now I can visualize that. Thanks

If you are taking the tie rods loose, you might as well take the p/s hoses loose and just completely removing the front subframe and rack as an assembly.
Would that involve spilling ATF from the p/s system? It took me a while to get it all buttoned up and not leaking, so I really don't want to do that again. Also i hate the smell of ATF.

[GeorgeH]

Ah ok now I can visualize that. Thanks

Would that involve spilling ATF from the p/s system? It took me a while to get it all buttoned up and not leaking, so I really don't want to do that again. Also i hate the smell of ATF.

Yes it would require breaking into the ATF system, but that may be we better to have it out of the way than dangling and have to reach around it.

[papa_g]

All good suggestions. Thank you!

[papa_g]

Ok, so I have a procedure mapped out for the upcoming project. But I would like to get your advice on the order in which I do things. Here's what I am thinking:
- While oil is draining, I undo the end links and tie rods, since I will be replacing them.
- Put drain plug back in, and begin process of getting to the oil pan
- During said process, I will probably remove the steering giubo and position the new one in its place.
- I would also completely remove the sway bar and put it off to the side, and install the new end links on it separately.
- With subframe down, I will replace engine mounts ( i need to figure out a way to torque them properly from the top)
- Remove oil pan, clean, put it back into place with new gasket and RTV.
- Replace tranny mounts
- bolt everything back up, put on new tie rods, refill oil
- tranny drain and fill

Does this sound like a good plan? would you do anything differently?

[GeorgeH]

My order of operations would be:
With steering wheel straight ahead, take key out to lock column
Release top nuts of eng mounts via the engine bay
Release oil filter cap to allow oil to drain
Raise car
Drain oil
Remove sway bar completely
Disconnect Steering coupler from steering shaft and lower control arms from body, lower subframe
Install drain plug in pan and replace pan gasket. *doing this as early in the repair will give the glue the most time to setup if that is a concern.
Replace steering coupler on Rack
Replace engine mounts (they are keyed on the bottom side to the subframe)
Reinstall subframe
Replace tie rods
Replace end links and Install sway bar/end links
Repl trans mounts
Lower car
Repl oil filter
Add oil
Tighten top Eng mount nuts

[papa_g]

decided to go with the engine support bar. The crane we have has a hook which is too fat to fit into the engine lift point.

Tighten top Eng mount nuts
Do you guys have a way of torquing the passenger side nut properly? Even with a long attachment and U-joint, I can't seem to tighten the top nut enough. Do you tighten from the bottom or top?

[DeathTrap]

I couldn't find my u-joint so I took the bracket off of the engine, hit it with the impact set on '1' or low and called it a day. Eventually I'll torque it properly. It has been fine so far.

[GeorgeH]

This is what I use and works perfectly for both sides, 16mm swivel socket with a 2' extension.

34143

[papa_g]

Well, I did it. Took 3 days (with regular work and activities). Thanks for the help!

[johnrando]

Way to go

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[GeorgeH]

:like