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View Full Version : what the $*#@ is wrong with my front end?



KevinC
02-20-2018, 10:26 PM
I should have posted this ages ago as this problem started last year, but I've had a lot going on and dealing with headaches like this hasn't been at the top of my list. This is gonna be a long one, grab a beer...

My car: 2005 coupé, 93k miles at the time. Steering is SPOT ON - car tracking straight as an arrow (as it always had), steering feel tight and crisp. Then I curbed the LF wheel pulling into a parking space one day - pretty decent rash, and banged the curb pretty hard. Enough that the car was now pulling to one side. So I take it to my trusted alignment shop (not my BMW mechanic). They pull me outside to show me that the FCABs were shot (they had been replaced at 55k, so not surprising as we all know that stock FCABs don't last particularly long). I thank them and take it to my indy mechanic to have them replaced. He's a dealership veteran, a BMW master mechanic, and very familiar with the older cars such as the E46. He installs poly bushings, which I wouldn't have otherwise wanted, tells me that he always does due to the better longevity, and assures me that I won't sense any undue NVH. So I let him proceed. Here's where things start to get weird.

He installs them and aligns the car. I get it back, and it still pulls and wanders a bit. And sometimes doesn't pull at all. Just generally flaky behavior up front. I decide to return to my alignment shop, which I trust implicitly, and have them check the alignment and realign if necessary. Their printout confirms it's out of spec and they perform another alignment, printout confirming now within spec. But same problems persist.

I return to my mechanic and express my frustration. His #1 guy (there's only one other guy besides him lol) drives it and decides that he's pretty certain that it's a tire problem that's causing the behavior. Suggests that I take it to Discount Tire for road force balancing, which will confirm if there's a bad bead or other issue up there someplace. I follow his advice, and Discount does the road force balancing, no charge - I love those fuckers, have been a customer for decades. They assure me that the tires check out fine.

So... I blow it off and basically drive my Golf R exclusively for the next several months, not wanting to hassle with the damn thing. Then my buddy moves out from Florida and needs a car while he's in town half the month while he's on call. He's a former mechanic and M4 owner and immediately laments how crappy the driving experience is due to the issue, recalling how perfect it had been initially (I originally found the car in Miami and he test drove and handled the sales transaction for me back in 2012. But I digress.)

Fast forward to this week. He now has the car in Vegas (where he has just bought a house), but his M4 has just arrived from Florida, so I've actually put it up for sale (posted here in the appropriate section here). I decided I wanted to sort out the front end before selling. I had him take it to a local Vegas shop today with solid reviews. Their analysis after driving it: they think it's the steering rack, because the guy flipped a Youee™ in it, and it didn't re-center as it should have. Then he went on to explain they could replace it with a rebuilt rack, or do a new one. Then he explained that they had one customer they had to get 3 rebuilds in for, because the first 2 had issues with worn parts! What the hell. In other words, they were sourcing "used" racks that were merely "cleaned up", not truly rebuilt units. Said he could do a new OEM rack and have it out the door including labor for "under a grand". So we discussed that (me and my pal) and mutually decided that throwing that kind of money at a problem, when it's a freaking guess, was not a prudent plan. And I lost a lot of confidence over the whole "rebuilt rack" scenario they described. Was this just some ploy to try to get me to spring for a new one? I dunno. So... on to another shop for another opinion. These guys drove it, and they seem to think the FCABs are the culprit, which given the timeline, would make a lot of sense. They say that they used to install poly all the time, but found that they do NOT fare well in the desert heat of Vegas, which is the same or worse in Phoenix. Only fly in that ointment is that they were brand new when this started, so not really time for them to "break down" in the heat. They want to put it on the lift and have a look (duh - why did the first shop not even suggest doing that?). All their bays were occupado today so they asked him to come back in a few days and they will have a "free" look for further diagnosis.

What do y'all make of all this? Any and all suggestions and stories of firsthand experience most appreciated. I want to get this sorted so that I can either sell the car in good working order, or if I'm gonna keep it, be happy to drive it again.

ZHPizza
02-21-2018, 04:10 AM
Sounds like ghosts 2 me

SaltyNC
02-21-2018, 05:48 AM
What do y'all make of all this? Any and all suggestions and stories of firsthand experience most appreciated. I want to get this sorted so that I can either sell the car in good working order, or if I'm gonna keep it, be happy to drive it again.

I'm fairly new to the ZHP, but I've been doing a suspension refresh on my son's ZHP. The steering rack explanation doesn't seem likely to me. It seems impossible curbing a wheel could bend the steering rack. It's beefy, and I think the threaded portion of the tie rod would give before the steering rack would bend in most cases. The rack could maybe lose a tooth or two, though, but you would know if that was the problem. I wonder if you have a bent tie rod or if the inner tie rod ball joint failed on the side you curbed. You can get a good alignment with a bent tie rod, but then it's going to drive like crap. You may also notice that if you turn one way, the car wants to keep turning in more and more, but if you turn the other way, it resists turning. That also sounds like the explanation from the guy that said it didn't return to center after doing a u-turn. When I first replaced my tie rods and just eyeballed it until I could get it into a shop, that's exactly how the car drove. I then used the string method and aligned the front with my back tires, and then it drove fine. I still haven't gotten it into a shop for a proper alignment, because I decided to replace the end links and FCABs before I take it in, and it's driving great and tracking true.

Good luck with your car.

Salty

san
02-21-2018, 05:55 AM
I’m thinking tie rods too. I changed them on mine sometime last year and the difference in steering feel was night and day. I’m guessing here but I think the tie rods would go first before the steering rack if any damage was caused due to curbing...


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Newjack
02-21-2018, 05:59 AM
I'll echo the previous answers and say tie rods too. I doubt the steering rack is the issue, but it will help to narrow it down by replacing the smaller more inexpensive items first.

I didn't notice a difference when I had my tie rods replaced, I did it because they had seized too many times, and a blowtorch can only loosen them so much before they were going to fail.

slater
02-21-2018, 07:57 AM
hey kevin... bummer. my thoughts:

- have you tried swapping the front wheels to the back, and vice-versa, just to test? i've had tires do weird things before, and you could've damaged the tire when you curbed it

- reinstalling OEM bushings to return to a 'stock' state would be a good idea

- i highly doubt it's the rack

- you've checked the tie rods for play? i mean, i assume the myriad alignment shops would've picked up on a damaged one, but i wouldn't rule it out

- check the wheel bearing on the side you whacked

- can you post up the alignment sheet here?

KevinC
02-21-2018, 10:31 AM
My buddy is back at the Vegas shop today, here's his texted update just received....

"I had them put the car on the rack since no work today.

Leaking return line from power steering on boot of rack. On time will find its way to new bushings.

Bushings are fine. I got under with him and no signs of anything bent. On any corner of car. Pulled down the plastic shield and had a good look. The rod ends, control arms, etc

You can see visibly the alignment is OFF!!! Right front just a little normal tow in. Left side past neutral and towed out! Definitely makes a car handle shitty. Had two guys look and found no reason it would go out of alignment from something damaged.

More later when I get my phone charged."

SaltyNC
02-21-2018, 01:59 PM
You can see visibly the alignment is OFF!!! Right front just a little normal tow in. Left side past neutral and towed out! Definitely makes a car handle shitty. Had two guys look and found no reason it would go out of alignment from something damaged.

Interesting. Do you suppose they aligned it and then forgot to tighten the adjustment nut on the tie rod?

Salty

KevinC
02-21-2018, 03:09 PM
Interesting. Do you suppose they aligned it and then forgot to tighten the adjustment nut on the tie rod?


No, because it was aligned 3 different times - when the poly FCABs were installed, again by my highly trusted alignment shop, then one more time by the quality guy that my indy mechanic subs out to.

I'm thinking about buying a couple of tie rods (Meyle's are $60 a side at ECS) and sending him to the trusted old school suspension guy that was recommended by the Vegas shop for alignment. The parts are cheap enough to just toss em in there, in case something is amiss there. They can also sniff around for potential other causes, being as they are suspension guys. Does that sound like a reasonable next step?

SaltyNC
02-21-2018, 04:13 PM
No, because it was aligned 3 different times - when the poly FCABs were installed, again by my highly trusted alignment shop, then one more time by the quality guy that my indy mechanic subs out to.

I'm thinking about buying a couple of tie rods (Meyle's are $60 a side at ECS) and sending him to the trusted old school suspension guy that was recommended by the Vegas shop for alignment. The parts are cheap enough to just toss em in there, in case something is amiss there. They can also sniff around for potential other causes, being as they are suspension guys. Does that sound like a reasonable next step?

Man, that's a tough call. If the tie rod isn't bent, even if the ball joint in the inner tie rod was worn, it shouldn't cause enough slop to go so far out of alignment that it is visible from a prior proper alignment. The only other thing I can think of is if one of the control arms is slipping inside the poly bushing. Would that cause the control arm to pivot and change the toe alignment? The way the steering rack mounts, it would be highly unlikely the entire rack is shifting in any way.

Good luck, man. I'm out of ideas.

Salty

KevinC
02-21-2018, 07:13 PM
Tie rods (inner & outer) are cheap enough that I'd just as soon replace them when this shop does the alignment, can't hurt. Certainly not a big expense considering the other knucklers wanted a grand to replace the steering rack in a "shot in the dark" attempt to "maybe" solve the problem. Now it seems that nobody thinks that is the issue at all. I'll order the Febi-Bilstein pieces tonight. Will update once this all sorts out, thanks for everyone's input!

slater
02-21-2018, 07:14 PM
Man, that's a tough call. If the tie rod isn't bent, even if the ball joint in the inner tie rod was worn, it shouldn't cause enough slop to go so far out of alignment that it is visible from a prior proper alignment. The only other thing I can think of is if one of the control arms is slipping inside the poly bushing. Would that cause the control arm to pivot and change the toe alignment? The way the steering rack mounts, it would be highly unlikely the entire rack is shifting in any way.

Good luck, man. I'm out of ideas.

Salty

agreed on the tie rod analysis. but for the poly bushing to allow to that much toe change, it would have to have a LOT of play in it - and that would make for some shimmy in the wheel.

as i said above, i think going back to OEM bushings for a baseline is a good idea too. no idea what poly bushings were used, so no idea of fitment or quality.

KevinC
03-09-2018, 05:04 PM
UPDATE! My car is still with my buddy in Vegas. Last week I ordered new tie rod assemblies from ECS. Yesterday he took it to an old-school alignment guy who was recommended by the BMW shop he last visited. Tie rods replaced on both sides, re-aligned, and.... she drives like a dream again. There was no obvious damage/bend detectable on the old tie rods, but.. whatever. He's done some extensive test driving and he says all the pull and bad behavior is gone. It's getting detailed today, and I'm going to list it for sale in the next couple of days, here and on Craigslist. I want to try to sell it from his place since he's in Vegas (Henderson) and I'm now way out in the sticks (75 miles SE of Tucson) where nobody is going to venture to see it.

The ZHP will be replaced by a new Suzuki V-Strom 650, and my Golf R will remain as my 4-wheel transportation. SO much nice area to ride & explore down here, and tons of perfect weather.. and so much safer than in a more urban/suburban environment, so I decided to buy my first bike in 35 years (no, I'm not 35 years old and this is my first - I had one 35 years ago that I sold in '83). I'm taking a 3-day class next weekend that includes 10 hours of seat time. That will qualify me for the motorcycle endorsement to my license without further testing. Getting super excited to do some serious riding.

Newjack
03-09-2018, 06:21 PM
UPDATE! My car is still with my buddy in Vegas. Last week I ordered new tie rod assemblies from ECS. Yesterday he took it to an old-school alignment guy who was recommended by the BMW shop he last visited. Tie rods replaced on both sides, re-aligned, and.... she drives like a dream again. There was no obvious damage/bend detectable on the old tie rods, but.. whatever. He's done some extensive test driving and he says all the pull and bad behavior is gone. It's getting detailed today, and I'm going to list it for sale in the next couple of days, here and on Craigslist. I want to try to sell it from his place since he's in Vegas (Henderson) and I'm now way out in the sticks (75 miles SE of Tucson) where nobody is going to venture to see it.

The ZHP will be replaced by a new Suzuki V-Strom 650, and my Golf R will remain as my 4-wheel transportation. SO much nice area to ride & explore down here, and tons of perfect weather.. and so much safer than in a more urban/suburban environment, so I decided to buy my first bike in 35 years (no, I'm not 35 years old and this is my first - I had one 35 years ago that I sold in '83). I'm taking a 3-day class next weekend that includes 10 hours of seat time. That will qualify me for the motorcycle endorsement to my license without further testing. Getting super excited to do some serious riding.Thanks for reporting back, I'm glad you got everything fixed on the ZHP and it was easy

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ZHPizza
03-09-2018, 08:09 PM
Awesome. Is it the MSF course? I can't remember how extensive that was.

joeybananaz18
03-09-2018, 09:00 PM
Awesome. New owner is going to get a great riding car.

KevinC
03-09-2018, 09:22 PM
Awesome. Is it the MSF course? I can't remember how extensive that was.

Yes, MSF curriculum, by a local school. According to the local Suzuki dealer, it's a great course...

https://motorcycletraining.com/courses/basic-rider-course/

ZHPizza
03-10-2018, 04:29 AM
Yes, MSF curriculum, by a local school. According to the local Suzuki dealer, it's a great course...

https://motorcycletraining.com/courses/basic-rider-course/It really is. You'll learn some pretty cool stuff by the end of the course.

Well enjoy the new ride and we'll see you back here in a few years when you're looking to get back into a zhp!

SaltyNC
03-10-2018, 05:34 AM
Glad you got it sorted, Kevin. Good luck with your sale and hope you enjoy the new ride.

Salty

ELCID86
03-10-2018, 03:36 PM
^ditto. I was just in LV this week on vacation and had lunch with relatives in Henderson.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/9b1c6266613f3c831a494646d2bd1baa.jpg

johnrando
03-10-2018, 04:56 PM
Good stuff

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