Will a ZHP ever become a valuable classic car?

[dpark]

Was watching one of those Mecum car auctions on cable TV and got to wondering if a ZHP will ever have classic car value.

After browsing through some of the recent threads about folks being in accidents and having to decide between taking the insurance money, fixing with a salvage title or buying it back and parting it out, I was wondering if time will change the value of the ZHP.

The E30 M3s are now commanding prices in the $50-80k range for nice specimens.

Obviously ZHPs aren't M3s, but was curious what other people think? Will the ZHP forever be overshadowed by the M3s and relegated to value in the under $10K range for forever? Or will they become collectible?

Thoughts?

[az3579]

Voted "continue to decline". They're not special editions (not a limited production run), have no special pedigree (like the E30 M3 had) or anything special about them, and they're just based on regular 330's. Not much is different about them than a run-of-the-mill 330i.

[BMWCurves]

I believe an average ZHP will not garner any special treatment or pricing and they will continue to decline and then level out.

On the other hand, I would wager a clean 330i sedan ZHP with a 6MT, low miles (<60k), ZCW and/or ZPP, and a favorable color combination will command a pretty penny in a decade. I don't think it'll skyrocket like E30 M3s have, but I think they'll be worth something. The trouble is, good luck finding one, because ZHPs are such good daily drivers that few will park them away and maintain them at a low mileage; it's just not a sound investment.

I base this belief solely on the stupid amounts of money people are ponying up for old cars nowadays, that in reality aren't that great of cars in the first place. There was a 1964 Mini that just sold for $50k on BaT. Sure, it was 1 of 4,000, but even so, it had the smaller engine and had body rust. Unless there is sentimental value I'm missing there, there is no rational reason to be paying that kind of money for a Mini.

[JPMo]

I don't think it will ever reach M3 status, but I think the ZHP will definitely have a slight bump in value. Its a m sport car with actual performance differences, regardless of how minor, and has some enthusiast appeal.

I also believe that "good" NA cars will increase in value generally speaking as we enter the era of forced induction and electric cars. All I can say is after driving a Hyundai Sonata rental in South Florida for the past 2 weeks, I'm ready to go home and take my ZHP out.

[slater]

i think ZHP Tourings will be highly collectable.

[BMWCurves]

i think ZHP Tourings will be highly collectable.

What makes you say that? Tourings are just soccer mom cars with a BMW badge slapped on them.

[anandoc]

What makes you say that? Tourings are just soccer mom cars with a BMW badge slapped on them.

+1

Tourings are for people living in the boonies who need to haul lumber and maple syrup!

[slater]

What makes you say that? Tourings are just soccer mom cars with a BMW badge slapped on them.

ha, good recall on that one! :)

i LOL'd.



+1

Tourings are for people living in the boonies who need to haul lumber and maple syrup!

LOL. well, you can fit maple syrup in your sedan, right? Tourings is good fer:

- lumber (oh yeeeeeah)
- plants... heck, trees
- appliances (ovens in particular)
- engines
- transmissions
- at least 8 tires
- many 40lb bags of wood pellets
- engine hoists... plus lots of extra room for other stuff
- any items of furniture from ikea
- awww heck... i guess, families and luggage, too!

[ELCID86]

i think ZHP Tourings will be highly collectable.

[emoji23][emoji109]


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - anonymous E46 fanatic

[Ron///Man]

As an owner of both E30 M3's and ZHP's, I can tell you that the meteoric E30 M3 values have ripped the soul from them. People are afraid to drive them... some of my fellow racers decided to return them back to street cars leaving very few of us to use them as they were intended - on the race track. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that they are worth a king's ransom, but I think I was happier driving them to within an inch of their life and enjoying every moment of it. I love driving my ZHP. It's a great driver and it brings plenty of smiles to my face, and that's the way I'd like it to stay. I don't know what I'd replace it with if it followed the E30 M3.

[bimmerteknik]

I think there will always be a niche group of buyers who are willing to pay more for a ZHP, how much more? IDK.

At some point a younger generation will discover/value it and turn the ZHP into the hipster equivalent of a performance car. They’ll say “oh you didn’t know???” And sound educated of a small lapse in time where BMW marketing responded to the demand of enthusiast for a 4 door sports sedan when there was none.

Oh wait haha we might already be there. 🤣

But seriously, owners control the market right?


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[joeybananaz18]

I think prices will plateau and start to rise a bit for rarer colors and go up a bit more for lower miles. I think as BMWs become more "digital", demand for their more "analog" cars will increase, if you catch my drift. Take a look at what BMW has turned into. There's no such thing as a naturally aspirated straight 6 sedan anymore- and that was their wheelhouse. Everything is turbocharged, manuals are going the way of the dodo bird and while some of them are striking (i.e. new 5er), none of them are pretty cars. Design-wise Id say cars the period from 1996 (birth of the z3) to 2006 (end of the e46) will always be in demand. I might even shorten that to 2003 (last year for the e39). Performance-wise that decade a filled with great drivers.
I think the ZHP is a gem. Not just because its it looks and drives great, but because it was from a time when the company was great.

[dpark]

Great responses. Thanks.

I love my ZHP. It is my daily driver and I want nothing else. I have driven more recent 3-series and they do nothing for me. To "electronic" for my tastes and very little "feel" for the driver. I do like the modern infotainment systems, but it isn't enough to make me want to switch to something newer. I installed bluetooth and an ipod interface so I have basic technology covered. And I mount my iphone on the windshield for Waze. Really nothing else I need.

However at some point I wonder if financially it is just smarter to get a new car. This year in PDX you could get a brand new 320i for $199/month on a 24 month lease. I think it was also like $2.5K down. But even still, that is a pretty small monthly nut for a car that all you have to do is put gas in it. The warranty covers everything else from a maintenance perspective and you probably won't even need to buy tires before the lease is over.

At what point does the pleasure of driving a ZHP get outweighed by ongoing costs? Certainly my heated seats won't last forever and I really use them in the winter. My window lifts will eventually go (still on my original motors there after 14 years) etc. etc.

Short of major issues, I will probably drive mine until the motor needs to be rebuilt/replaced. Already did the whole cooling system thing. Would be nice if there would be a better ROI for dropping in a new motor at 250K miles. Well, I guess I will cross that bridge when I get to it...

[joeybananaz18]

M54s don't really cost as much as the M3s s54, so you could potentially find a low-milage parts car and just swap in the motor. You'd probably get your money back and if you decide you don't want to part ways with it, you'll at least have a added some more years to the cars life.
in regards to newer BMWs, although newer, replacing a ZHP with a 320i <i think> is one step forwards two steps backwards. You get an updated design but probably lose so much of the drive and feel that you've become used to. If i didn't get the ZHP i would have gone with a 2006 330i. Some on here actually talked me into the ZHP citing the light<er>weight feel of it. But when it's time to upgrade my zhp, if i want to say with a BMW ill go find one of those, or if i want to venture out grab an AR Giulia, which apparently gives a similar feel to the ZHP.

[Oli77]

Was dreaming I guess. Don't even have a zhp and was thinking all you guys would be driving $50k cars well maintained soon. Call me an optimist {today}.

[johnrando]

With so many E46s out there, and the ZHP performance bump not that much, not sure there us enough in the package, although wonderful, to really send this car into the rarified air for pricing. Hoping they do keep some good value for current owners though.

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[holyc0w]

I think prices will plateau and start to rise a bit for rarer colors and go up a bit more for lower miles. I think as BMWs become more "digital", demand for their more "analog" cars will increase, if you catch my drift. Take a look at what BMW has turned into. There's no such thing as a naturally aspirated straight 6 sedan anymore- and that was their wheelhouse. Everything is turbocharged, manuals are going the way of the dodo bird and while some of them are striking (i.e. new 5er), none of them are pretty cars. Design-wise Id say cars the period from 1996 (birth of the z3) to 2006 (end of the e46) will always be in demand. I might even shorten that to 2003 (last year for the e39). Performance-wise that decade a filled with great drivers.
I think the ZHP is a gem. Not just because its it looks and drives great, but because it was from a time when the company was great.

Thinking the same

It won't skyrocket, but I think it might benefit from an increase in demand for a more pure or "classic" driving experience. When all the new cars will be electric, hydrogen, or turbo 2 cylinders there might be a niche for these cars.

[daytona90t]

I think my ZHP is already my modern classic car. I bought my ZHP five years ago and at the time it was replacing my 1991 Alfa 164 as my daily driver. Getting into a rear drive inline 6 with 50/50 weight distribution was like stepping forward multiple generations in automotive handling and dynamics from the Alfa. This in a car that was in absolutely stock form and bettered the Alfa in ever aspect, when I had rebuilt and lowered the entire Alfa suspension with a B&G, Koni, Eibach set up, was the most exciting aspect of the car. The ZHP really is just about close to perfection in stock form. Of course over the years I have also rebuilt the entire ZHP suspension and even added a few M3 goodies and thicker sway bars.

At 110,000 miles I am fortunate enough to have been able to retire the ZHP from daily driver duties and keep it as my project and car show car. I replaced it with a 2013 X1 35i M-Sport. While the X1 is a blast to drive with the 300 horse N55 and X-drive that keeps it firmly planted and is arguably a much better, more modern, and more utilitarian daily driver, it is just not as enjoyable to drive as the ZHP. Honestly, I don't really care what the eventual value of the car is $0 or $100,000 as long as parts, support, and a great community continue to be available I plan on keeping it for my own enjoyment.

[slater]

However at some point I wonder if financially it is just smarter to get a new car. This year in PDX you could get a brand new 320i for $199/month on a 24 month lease. I think it was also like $2.5K down. But even still, that is a pretty small monthly nut for a car that all you have to do is put gas in it. The warranty covers everything else from a maintenance perspective and you probably won't even need to buy tires before the lease is over.

At what point does the pleasure of driving a ZHP get outweighed by ongoing costs? Certainly my heated seats won't last forever and I really use them in the winter. My window lifts will eventually go (still on my original motors there after 14 years) etc. etc.

i see where you're coming from here, but really, window regulator + motors are so cheap and easy to replace - heck, buy some spares now to hang onto - that it's not really worth mentioning. same with seats - people are parting out E46s all the time... find a good spare set. heck, find some M3 seats! 5 bolts, an electrical connector and 10min of your time and you can swap a seat.

the new vs old car debate: i've been down this road a lot, trying to gauge ongoing costs of keeping an older car vs payments for a newer car. it's always dependent on which car you own and how well it's been maintained, but for me, owning an E46 is always cheaper in the long run. and would it be as nice to own and drive - both short- and long-term - that new 320i? no. well, no in my opinion. :) smiles per mile, for me, always outweighs cost savings.

if you're part of a 2-car household, like i am, then the answer most likely lies in you driving the older car, and your wife/s.o. driving the new(er) car. i love the ZHPs' balance of the chassis and the balance of power/reliability. you can add modern conveniences (BT, NAV, etc) and there you go. i live in a harsh climate and drive mine year-round and it just delivers.... every day. have i had issues? sure. new cars have issues too. but i know my car inside and out (literally have R&R'd almost every bolt/nut on it over the last year - and i know that type of vehicle ownership is not for everyone... but it's just how i roll, bruh!), and i would drive it anywhere. as for the new(er) car, we're still considering a 2018 VW Golf Alltrack 6-speed for my wife. for a modern car, it's actually pretty nice. it has decent driving dynamics, even compared to the E46. it still feels a little cheaper, notably in the suspension, which seems odd compared to a 13-year old E46. but would i rather drive my ZHP(T) and deal with old car upkeep, or a new Golf Alltrack and have a warranty and a $500/month car payment? for me, ZHP(T). for my wife - leaning towards Golf Alltrack. ;)

every car is a compromise; you just need to find your balance.




(frig. i should trademark that.)

[dpark]

I get the whole "compromise" thing on the old vs. new car. I still love my ZHP and after 14 years, finally gave her a pair of winter shoes (which really make a difference even over the Conti DSWs which I had before).

If I knew the car would only cost say $1000/year in maintenance and it remained reliable, I would keep it forever. My concern is that while it has been trouble free for the past 6 years (2012 was a bad year for many things needing replacement), I'm not gonna be happy if the car starts costing $3K+ a year to maintain.

I've already done the whole cooling thing so at my mileage rate probably good for another 9 years (didn't do it until the car was 13 years old and the expansion tank still looked good), but in that same timeframe probably doing to need a new clutch and rebuild/replace the motor as the major costs.

I just hope the little stuff (FCABs, RTABs, window regulators, zenon headlights etc.) don't start to make it a bigger pain that it is worth.

I've seen the Mango thread about what needs to be done to keep an E46 humming along, and everything has been done except the CCV and the throttle body intake boots (my indy mechanic says I don't have a vacuum leak so don't bother until it does since nothing fatal will happen).

I guess we all keep our ZHPs because we love them, even though they are nothing more than a sink hole over time (hopefully a small one).

[Vas]

Probably not.

Low mileage examples will still fetch a nice amount but higher mileage cars are worthless imo. Current owners either will keep them forever or sell them for rock bottom prices to move into something new and fresh.

I was always a firm believer that these cars are meant to be driven and more miles = smiles.

Cars that sit eventually get sold.

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[3ZHP]

I don’t think the value of the ZHP will be anything crazy but, will always carry a significant following. I would put it in a class like the Studebaker Hawk. It’s a cool car but, not a huge following.


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[nextelbuddy]

if I had known what i was going to do with my car, i would have never started with a 165k mile chasis for my project and went and sourced a low mile chassis. i have a very unique car, clean carfax no accidents just high miles overall despite literally everything being replaced with full S54 and M3 mechanical conversion but still my car will never be a collector car or fetch good money.

i've actually devalued my car since it doesn't have the original ZHP engine and transmission or exhaust. my vcar will never be worth as much as a clean low miles ZHP nor will it ever be worth as much as a mid to high miles M3 because it doesnt have the WBS Vin.

i will just end up keeping my car for fun and giving it to my son one day unless i change my mind for a touring project.

ZHP enthusiasts only care about one thing.. clean carfax and low miles.

[Sockethead]

To me, the e46 is the European equivalent of a Chevy. They're everywhere and tons of OEM and after market parts are available. I imagine it's the most common BMW on the road....

[cornercarver]

Voted "continue to decline". They're not special editions (not a limited production run), have no special pedigree (like the E30 M3 had) or anything special about them, and they're just based on regular 330's. Not much is different about them than a run-of-the-mill 330i.


To me, the e46 is the European equivalent of a Chevy. They're everywhere and tons of OEM and after market parts are available. I imagine it's the most common BMW on the road....
I think these two statements pretty much sum it up. Don't get me wrong - I love the car - but I don't see anything particularly unique about the ZHP that would give it 'collector' status.

[BADCLOWN]

In as few words as I can put it: absolutely not

[joeybananaz18]

if I had known what i was going to do with my car, i would have never started with a 165k mile chasis for my project and went and sourced a low mile chassis.

But if you had started with a low milage car, wouldn't you have devalued it even more after the swap?

[nextelbuddy]

But if you had started with a low milage car, wouldn't you have devalued it even more after the swap?

Probably but it would have forced me to find a very low/matching mileage s54 swap instead. A low mileage zhp with a low/matching mileage s54 would/should fetch the same or more than one with a stock m54.

[joeybananaz18]

Probably but it would have forced me to find a very low/matching mileage s54 swap instead. A low mileage zhp with a low/matching mileage s54 would/should fetch the same or more than one with a stock m54.

ahhhh now i got you. yeah that makes sense.

[Sailor]

Interesting discussion, guys. I come to the table from a very different perspective compared to most of you. The ZHP option was unknown to me up until 5 months ago. After 13 years of driving older 3 and 5 series cars I thought I wanted an M, and had been looking for the right one for the past couple of years The ones I drove would have been very enticing in my youth but were a little too close to track-ready for my current tastes. I needed a car that could on occasion be driven 500 or more miles in a day and not wear me out, and the M didn't fit that description. After driving an old buddy's ZHP i was hooked - a quantum jump from my '96 328i, a bit more civilized than the M, but firmer and a touch quicker than the base 330i - it seemed to be just what I wanted. In 2 months I found one and am still looking forward to getting in it each day. Looking back over 50+ years of owning/driving sports and performance cars it is easy to judge which has been the best - though this Z-car is not the fastest or the most valuable, it is hands down the most satisfying, comfortable, and reliable of the bunch. I did not buy it as an investment - that's a little too iffy a place to park money, especially at my age. I bought it to drive and enjoy, and am tickled to play with it a little on back roads while still seeing 30+ mpg on the highway. I understand the motivation to modify the car - did plenty of that on other vehicles many years ago (did you know the valve clearance on the Duntov cam in the full-house 327 Chevvies was .030"? - it sounded like a threshing machine at idle.) But with grandkids now, extra bucks tend to go for non-automotive things, and I agree that the stock ZHP is pretty close to what I want and need. It will most likely be driven another 135k in the years to come, will receive whatever maintenance is appropriate, and won't be worth much at that point. But the return on investment will be obvious to the undertaker who has to remove the smile from my face. The ZHP is not rare enough to be collectible and will likely be superseded by mechanical and electronic improvements, but will always be remembered as one of the better machines BMW has produced.

[Sockethead]

I think most of us feel the same way... I stumbled across mine in a similar manner... wasn't looking for a ZHP but once I saw and drove it, it was mine...
I can relate to the Chevy. I drag raced Fords back in the late seventies and eighties