ZHP engine shutting down while driving/stopped - Faulty DME?

[brettbimmer]

Hey Gents,
Been chasing a weird one in my 2004 ZHP lately. She's a garage queen, and very well kept. I was about an hour into a three hour drive when at about 60MPH the engine completely shut down. Triwd to restart and it will crank & crank (like. a bad fuel pump, which is operating normally). When this happened, temp gauge went from normal to pegged, and car would not restart until about 15 mins later when something reset and temp gauge came back to where it should be. Turned around and drove the hour or so home with the car doing the same thing - randomly shutting down while driving, unable to restart for a period of time. Probably happened 12 times over the next hour. I have been searching thr web trying to read about possible problems, but have not seen anything concrete except that this seems to be pointing to a DME problem.

Here's what I know:
Car is not running hot or overheating. Fuel pump is working perfectly. Swapped the battery just to see if it was a low-power issue, and it made no difference. No dash lights on normally, yet I would get some sometimes after this happens until it resets, then occasionally thereafter a few would stay on until I restart. Engine grounds and battery terminals are all tight - even tried a hard reset disconnecting the battery for a period before reinstalling. Car will run flawlessly up to temperature and usually beyond, then it will randomly shut off. This happens under load or sitting at idle not moving. Ironically never sets a check engine light, but scans reveal CAN BUS errors.

So any ideas Mafiosos? Think I am on the right track pointing to a bad DME/ECU? Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom & experience.

Here are a few pics. Temp needle pegged is after shutdown. Next is after sitting when I can restart it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170623/f9b17075697125635b7eaf84b6c5eead.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170623/ebcd078805254b67c2e478a3f20bb218.jpg

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[az3579]

Makes me wonder if the car is designed to shut the motor off automatically in an extreme overheat situation. If so, perhaps you have a faulty coolant temp sensor that is tripping it?

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[brettbimmer]

Makes me wonder if the car is designed to shut the motor off automatically in an extreme overheat situation. If so, perhaps you have a faulty coolant temp sensor that is tripping it?

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Thanks BP. Possible, but wouldn't I see a spike in the temp gauge before it shut itself down, esp. with your special coding work eliminating the traditional factory dampening of the gauge? Temp. is 100% normal, engine shuts down, needle pegs. Here is the one article that I can find on this:

http://autotechdiagnostics.com/?p=213

[brettbimmer]

Screenshot from the scan of the system:
30371]30366

[az3579]

Thanks BP. Possible, but wouldn't I see a spike in the temp gauge before it shut itself down, esp. with your special coding work eliminating the traditional factory dampening of the gauge? Temp. is 100% normal, engine shuts down, needle pegs. Here is the one article that I can find on this:

http://autotechdiagnostics.com/?p=213


My friend confirmed that the car is NOT designed to shut down on an overheat situation so I guess there goes my theory.

I think you need a proper scan with ISTA-D to try to get more detail. Those errors seem incredibly vague.

[slater]

it definitely seems heat-related because you said it runs fine all the way up to temp, and beyond - then it dies. is the DME overheating? maybe pull the DME cover temporarily to monitor (and check the wiring at the DME while you're in there).

[Hornung418]

When you code a car, the temp needle will move to the red when it's complete. That's my only experience with the needle and makes me think it could be DME related.

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[brettbimmer]

it definitely seems heat-related because you said it runs fine all the way up to temp, and beyond - then it dies. is the DME overheating? maybe pull the DME cover temporarily to monitor (and check the wiring at the DME while you're in there).
Thanks. Interestingly all cooling system components were preventatively replaced less than 10K miles ago. I did not change any sensors, but everything else was swapped.

When you code a car, the temp needle will move to the red when it's complete. That's my only experience with the needle and makes me think it could be DME related.

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Thanks man. Thinking that my next best approach is to pull the DME and ship it off to BBA-Reman up in Mass for a bench test for $100. They tell me that if it is faulty and they can repair it, cost is $530. Full replacement with rebuilt unit is likely $900 or so. They ended up being my source for ABS module replacement on my old X5 too. Good folks there.

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[ELCID86]

Brett, sorry for your troubles. Not sure what Terraphntm is up to this summer (he's in Med school), but he seems to be a wiz with DME and other electronics. Maybe he'd take a look.

Do you think it's worth trying to replace the temp sensors just in case? Maybe not...

[brettbimmer]

Brett, sorry for your troubles. Not sure what Terraphntm is up to this summer (he's in Med school), but he seems to be a wiz with DME and other electronics. Maybe he'd take a look.

Do you think it's worth trying to replace the temp sensors just in case? Maybe not...
Thank you Sir. Hmmm...maybe I need to track down Tony before shipping any components off for investigation. Suppose I could swap some sensors, but I really think this a computer problem, esp. given what BP was able to confirm for me that they will not auto-stop if overheating is detected.

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[anandoc]

Thank you Sir. Hmmm...maybe I need to track down Tony before shipping any components off for investigation. Suppose I could swap some sensors, but I really think this a computer problem, esp. given what BP was able to confirm for me that they will not auto-stop if overheating is detected.

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The DME itself has a small fan to keep it cool. Are you able to check whether that is still functional?

Here is a video which shows you how to replace it...maybe you can verify that it is still functional and the DME itself is not overheating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MsbyUBfGMw

[brettbimmer]

The DME itself has a small fan to keep it cool. Are you able to check whether that is still functional?

Here is a video which shows you how to replace it...maybe you can verify that it is still functional and the DME itself is not overheating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MsbyUBfGMw
Wow that's huge, Thanks! Didn't know that we had a special cooling fan for the DME. Definitely sounds like it may be causing some trouble here given my symptoms, particularly happening once warmed up. I'll check it and report back.

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[ELCID86]

Never knew we had one of those. TMYK.

[brettbimmer]

Never knew we had one of those. TMYK.
Me either.

The plot thickens. Pulled DME out of slot underhood, and set it where it would not overheat. No change. Also looked over the circuit board inside the DME, and didn't see anything drastically wrong/out of place.

Pulled out the hidden fan to check, and all seems well. No change.

Removed the Pedalbox as a precaution. No change.

Guess next step is to send in DME for diagnosis. Not a fan of hunting mystery electrical problems.

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[thinkpad240]

This might be old news but there was recall for BMW E9x years 2007-2001 and reported by USAToday in year 2013 at https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/driveon/2013/02/16/bmw-recall-cars-cables/1924627/#

A few months ago, I received a letter for my BMW e90 that says : "battery cable terminal located behind the glove box in the above-referenced vehicle could be damaged over time due to vibration and high current loads. A damaged battery terminal could lead to an improper power supply. As a result, the door locks may not function properly or the vehicle may not start. In rare cases, an improper power supply could lead to the failure of the electrical system while driving." The fix it by replacing the part(fuse\wire).

When I had my E46 328ci, the engine would turn off all of a sudden after all the red lights flash on the dashboard, after I came to a complete stop while braking. One time, I was in a stop and go freeway jam and the engine just cuts off. I had to quickly turn my emergency lights on, go to Park, and restart the engine real quick. This happened intermittently(not more than 7 times total) after I had the car at year 6, and a few times at year 15. Also, later in the car's life, the engine would start but the turn signals on the outside would not flash or the air condition, or radio would not work even though the interior lights say it does. I had to turn the engine off and restart the car's engine and checked to make sure the exterior signals flash. This was a "minor " inconvenience to me as the car ages and I did not bother telling my indy shop about it as I thought this is what happens to old cars . In this heat I live in, the plastic brittles and any of the electrical wires under the hood could function inconsistently. My engine code reader never pull up on error codes on this issue.

I think BMW should have a done a battery terminal recall for my E46 too , I don't know if they did as I never remember receiving this same notice . Anyways, what I am trying to say in this post , it could be any of the electrical components that has gone bad (aside from DME if that is what does not need fixing), so how can you know what needs replacing and also the big issue is how to do you deal with the safety issue when that car engine goes out unexpectedly while on the road?

[brettbimmer]

This might be old news but there was recall for BMW E9x years 2007-2001 and reported by USAToday in year 2013 at https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/driveon/2013/02/16/bmw-recall-cars-cables/1924627/#

A few months ago, I received a letter for my BMW e90 that says : "battery cable terminal located behind the glove box in the above-referenced vehicle could be damaged over time due to vibration and high current loads. A damaged battery terminal could lead to an improper power supply. As a result, the door locks may not function properly or the vehicle may not start. In rare cases, an improper power supply could lead to the failure of the electrical system while driving." The fix it by replacing the part(fuse\wire).

When I had my E46 328ci, the engine would turn off all of a sudden after all the red lights flash on the dashboard, after I came to a complete stop while braking. One time, I was in a stop and go freeway jam and the engine just cuts off. I had to quickly turn my emergency lights on, go to Park, and restart the engine real quick. This happened intermittently(not more than 7 times total) after I had the car at year 6, and a few times at year 15. Also, later in the car's life, the engine would start but the turn signals on the outside would not flash or the air condition, or radio would not work even though the interior lights say it does. I had to turn the engine off and restart the car's engine and checked to make sure the exterior signals flash. This was a "minor " inconvenience to me as the car ages and I did not bother telling my indy shop about it as I thought this is what happens to old cars . In this heat I live in, the plastic brittles and any of the electrical wires under the hood could function inconsistently. My engine code reader never pull up on error codes on this issue.

I think BMW should have a done a battery terminal recall for my E46 too , I don't know if they did as I never remember receiving this same notice . Anyways, what I am trying to say in this post , it could be any of the electrical components that has gone bad (aside from DME if that is what does not need fixing), so how can you know what needs replacing and also the big issue is how to do you deal with the safety issue when that car engine goes out unexpectedly while on the road?
Thanks very much. You are right - my concern as any modern vehicle ages is the electrical system issues. Either you have to be a Master Tech or be able to afford lots of tech time. If not a DME/EWS problem, I will certainly start digging into the harness. Strangley, car won't allow for a quick restart, so I can't really drive anywhere at present if I hope to make it home. Odd part is that it is that my zhp lives in the garage and I only drive infrequently. My E36 with 318K Mi (Not a typo) seems more reliable, if you can deal with the interior imploding in around you while you drive.

Well, I have pulled the DME & EWS tonight to be sent out & checked. Will certainly report back with the findings.

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[anandoc]

Any updates on your issue?

[brettbimmer]

Any updates on your issue?Well I spent some time today putting in a new-used ECU (coded to the original VIN, EWS, & Key) as I sent the original out for testing and was informed it had a bad processor and could not be fixed. Sadly after installing, still getting the temp gauge pegged to hot (with ignition on and engine off), and car not starting. I think something's up with either immobilizer or ECU. Hopefully I can make some headway this week when I can talk to BBA-REMAN. Great folks there who may have some ideas.

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[johnrando]

Hmmm, so a bit of progress. Hope they find the fix. Now that this has gotten eyes on it I'll move it to the mechanical section.

[Aeternalis]

Perhaps something affected both the DME and the IKE (instrument cluster). I noticed that one of your screenshorts was of a PASoft scan of the IKE module listing out some errors.

Have you been able to rule out any problems with the cluster itself so far?

[ZHP_Brandon]

I actually just diagnosed and solved an almost identical problem on my ZHP

#1: have you taken your car to your local bmw dealership for the Airbag recall(s) ?
#2: do you have BMWScanner handy to know what you're up against?
#3: what codes come up consistently if you ARE scanning it regularly?


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[brettbimmer]

Hmmm, so a bit of progress. Hope they find the fix. Now that this has gotten eyes on it I'll move it to the mechanical section.

Thanks JR. They want me to test things that are known good so far, so I am still keeping an eye out for other ideas.


Perhaps something affected both the DME and the IKE (instrument cluster). I noticed that one of your screenshorts was of a PASoft scan of the IKE module listing out some errors.

Have you been able to rule out any problems with the cluster itself so far?
Well, if I do the cluster test, all seems normal, but I haven't gone further other than clearing the faults which have not returned. Is there something else that I should be doing to test it?

I actually just diagnosed and solved an almost identical problem on my ZHP

#1: have you taken your car to your local bmw dealership for the Airbag recall(s) ?
#2: do you have BMWScanner handy to know what you're up against?
#3: what codes come up consistently if you ARE scanning it regularly?


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Oh really? Same issues I am seeing? I thought that I was turning into the black sheep.

1. I keep getting hate (love?) mail/email/automated calls about getting the driver's side replaced, but short of towing the car to them for this, it would be helpful to be able to drive it in there. Pass. side was done roughly 2 years ago.
2 & 3. I have the PA Soft software. Faults seem to jump around a bit as up on the original posting, but never a CEL which is really a bit odd. Car currently pegs full hot, I hear an electrical "click" under the hood, and then it cranks but will not start. Almost like a fuel pump, but before sending the DME in, the car started and ran for 15 minutes without issue.

Do you suspect it is a grounding issue, or I guess I should ask what you found to be the source of the problem for your car?