Opinions on Poly VS OEM and check my suspension refresh list please

[Kimber]

I've been planning to refresh my suspension on my '06 auto vert I got last year with roughly 95k miles. I plan on keeping this car for a long time (10+ years) and don't see myself tracking it ever. I only drive in the summer months, and about 5k a year. Just spirited driving. I'm trying to get the best handling I can get out of the car without losing too much ride quality (aren't we all :) )

I'm also planning on going to a square wheel setup in the future (maybe end of summer after my DWS wear out, fronts are good, but rear's are getting close). Not sure if I will try to find 2 stock wheels, or go with something like the APEX wheels with Michelin PSS. (Probably the 18" Apex)

I got in as a tester for the new YCW/Mfactory coilovers. You can see the actual pictures of them on page 3 of this thread (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?18122-YCW-Reference-Series-Coilovers-(Round-2-Testing)-From-1020/page3).

I am going to rent the tools from elcid86 and I have a mechanic friend that owes me a favor and he is helping me do the install of everything (he has a lift!! :) )

In a couple days I'm having him check out tie rods and front ball joints to make sure everything is good and I don't need to replace anything there.

I also have sourced a OEM front sway bar from a M3 vert (so it's 27mm).

Here is my list (I linked them all to help anyone in the future as well):

Powerflex Rear Diff Rear Bushing : PFR5-4626 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Rear-Diff-Rear-Bushing-PFR5-4626.html)

Powerflex Rear Diff Front Bushings : PFR5-4625x2 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Rear-Diff-Front-Bushings-PFR5-4625.html)

Powerflex Rear Subframe Rear Inserts - PFR5-4613 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Rear-Subframe-Front-Inserts-PFR5-4613.html)

Powerflex Rear Subframe Front Inserts - PFR5-4614 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Rear-Subframe-Front-Inserts-PFR5-4614.html)

Powerflex Front Sway Bar Bushings : PFF5-4602-27x2 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Front-Sway-Bar-Bushings-PFF5-4602-27.html)

Powerflex Rear Sway Bar Bushings : PFR5-504-20x2 (http://www.bimmerworld.com/Powerflex-Sway-Bar-Bushings-PFR5-504-20.html)

BimmerWorld Rear Trailing Arm Bearing Kit (http://www.bimmerworld.com/E46-E36-3-Series-and-Z4-Rear-Trailing-Arm-Bearing-Kit.html)

OEM BMW front reinforcement plates (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-upper-strut-mount-reinforcement-pate-e46-51717036781)

ECS "vert specific" rear shock mount reinforcement plate set (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/heavy-duty-rear-shock-mount-reinforcement-plate-set/002478ecs02kt/)

Lemforder Rear sway bar links (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-swaybar-link-rear-e46-oem-33551094619)

Lemforder M3 Rear trailing arm ball joints (4 of them) (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-trailing-arm-ball-joint-e36-e46-33326775551)

Lemforder M3 engine mounts (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-engine-mount-lemforder-11812228298l)

OEM M3 trans mounts (says manual, but I'm assuming the auto is the same) (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-manual-transmission-mount-e46-m3-genuine-bmw-22322282340oe)

FCAB OEM Z4M bushings (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-suspension-control-arm-bushing-z4-31107838575)

I have the Powerflex rear subframe inserts in my list to save a couple bucks over the AKG set (https://www.akgmotorsport.com/product/rear-subframe-bushing-set-for-bmw-e46-polyurethane-95a/) that would have been quite a bit more. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with these Powerflex inserts and if they are worth the savings of roughly $100 over the AKG set. The Powerflex street version is 70A compared to the AKG set which is 95A. (powerflex does have the race version which would be 95A as well)

The differential bushings were my other question. ECS sells a nice set (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/complete-performance-polyurethane-differential-bushing-set/002447ecs02kt/) and would be 88A compared to 80A for the powerflex street version I have in my list. ECS is a little cheaper. Does anyone have any experience with either of these brands or recommend using something different?

And I am pretty sure I was going to go with the OEM Z4M FCAB's, but was looking for people's opinions as well on this area.

So I hope you guys can chime in on what you have, and what you like or dislike about the parts, etc.

Also if you see anything you think I am missing please let me know. I want a complete list so there is no delay in getting everything installed at one time.

Thanks in advance guys!

[sillieidiot]

i was too lazy to read, so I just skimmed really fast. But do you have sway bar endlinks on your list? or is it included with the coils? You might need that. I saw that you listed rear, but not front. I would recommend some adjustable endlinks in case they don't fit with your coils.

[Kimber]

i was too lazy to read, so I just skimmed really fast. But do you have sway bar endlinks on your list? or is it included with the coils? You might need that. I saw that you listed rear, but not front. I would recommend some adjustable endlinks in case they don't fit with your coils.

Yes the coilovers came with adjustable endlinks, so that's why I didn't put them on the list, but good catch! :)

[ryankokesh]

I went with AKG over power flex, but I can't imagine there's a noticeable quality difference. I'd be comfortable going either route.

[Karl Lazlo]

I went with AKG over power flex, but I can't imagine there's a noticeable quality difference. I'd be comfortable going either route.

Same. Did AKG 95A diff and subframe, and FCABs on a recent refresh of my 03 ZSP. Deciding factor for me was that while the PF FCABs lasted longer than the OE, they ate themselves in a shorter dwell time (~60k) than what I had hoped. Overall, I am very happy with how the car tracks and responds to throttle adjustments.

The added bits I have installed: RE RTABs, RE strut brace, RE RSMs, M3 rear control arm bushings, M3 motor and trans mounts, OE F upper strut mount with plates, PF sway bar bushings, OE end links, Bilstein HD with stock (sport) springs. All on ET35 18x8.5 shod with Mich PSS 255 section width squared.

No noise from the suspension, but may be a little "harsh" for some people, but I have commuted to NYC with this car plenty of times, doesn't bother me... It does tramline more than my ZHP that has a more "tame" suspension and staggered wheels/tire. But, I attribute the tram-lining of the ZSP to the square setup, slightly wider track and stiffer sidewalls of the PSS compared to the softer Connie ECDWs on the ZHP.

[KevinC]

My indy put some kind of poly bushings in my FCABs a couple of months ago, and I HATE them with a passion. Steering is twitchy on-center now, after being perfection before with stock bearings (at least before they were shot).

[ryankokesh]

My indy put some kind of poly bushings in my FCABs a couple of months ago, and I HATE them with a passion. Steering is twitchy on-center now, after being perfection before with stock bearings (at least before they were shot).

That's interesting to hear, I haven't experienced anything similar. Just out of curiosity, did he show you the alignment sheet afterwards?

[Kimber]

Same. Did AKG 95A diff and subframe, and FCABs on a recent refresh of my 03 ZSP. Deciding factor for me was that while the PF FCABs lasted longer than the OE, they ate themselves in a shorter dwell time (~60k) than what I had hoped. Overall, I am very happy with how the car tracks and responds to throttle adjustments.

The added bits I have installed: RE RTABs, RE strut brace, RE RSMs, M3 rear control arm bushings, M3 motor and trans mounts, OE F upper strut mount with plates, PF sway bar bushings, OE end links, Bilstein HD with stock (sport) springs. All on ET35 18x8.5 shod with Mich PSS 255 section width squared.

No noise from the suspension, but may be a little "harsh" for some people, but I have commuted to NYC with this car plenty of times, doesn't bother me... It does tramline more than my ZHP that has a more "tame" suspension and staggered wheels/tire. But, I attribute the tram-lining of the ZSP to the square setup, slightly wider track and stiffer sidewalls of the PSS compared to the softer Connie ECDWs on the ZHP.

Seems pretty close to what I have planned. :) When you say "harsh" what are you describing?

I'm not a racer, and doubt I will ever track my car, I just want the best handling I can get without having to kill the ride quality. (I lifted my 4runner and although it looks bad ass and can climb over anything, the on road ride quality is no where near the stock ride. I wouldn't change it because it's my hunting/winter truck, but for my car, I'm hoping to have a nice quality ride.)

Do you get any rubbing with your tires? That is actually about the same square set up with PSS's I was thinking of switching to later this year. I like the wider look of tires. :)

[Sockethead]

Same. Did AKG 95A diff and subframe, and FCABs on a recent refresh of my 03 ZSP. Deciding factor for me was that while the PF FCABs lasted longer than the OE, they ate themselves in a shorter dwell time (~60k) than what I had hoped. Overall, I am very happy with how the car tracks and responds to throttle adjustments.

The added bits I have installed: RE RTABs, RE strut brace, RE RSMs, M3 rear control arm bushings, M3 motor and trans mounts, OE F upper strut mount with plates, PF sway bar bushings, OE end links, Bilstein HD with stock (sport) springs. All on ET35 18x8.5 shod with Mich PSS 255 section width squared.

No noise from the suspension, but may be a little "harsh" for some people, but I have commuted to NYC with this car plenty of times, doesn't bother me... It does tramline more than my ZHP that has a more "tame" suspension and staggered wheels/tire. But, I attribute the tram-lining of the ZSP to the square setup, slightly wider track and stiffer sidewalls of the PSS compared to the softer Connie ECDWs on the ZHP.

Did the poly diff bushings tighten up the drive line slop you get when shifting hard?

[slater]

Did the poly diff bushings tighten up the drive line slop you get when shifting hard?

that and stiffer trans mounts. mine is smooth - power on when you hit the gas, power off when you release. no delay or slop.

[Karl Lazlo]

Did the poly diff bushings tighten up the drive line slop you get when shifting hard?

Oh my, yes. Check your giubo and CSB coupled with diff and subframe mounts - It really is smooth as glass.

[Karl Lazlo]

Seems pretty close to what I have planned. :) When you say "harsh" what are you describing?

You end up feeling everything. Tighter and tauter. Maybe BP can compare, as he drove the car..


I'm not a racer, and doubt I will ever track my car, I just want the best handling I can get without having to kill the ride quality. (I lifted my 4runner and although it looks bad ass and can climb over anything, the on road ride quality is no where near the stock ride. I wouldn't change it because it's my hunting/winter truck, but for my car, I'm hoping to have a nice quality ride.)

The good news is... Most of the ride stiffness is from the dampers and not the bushings, so I think you will be fine. The 95A bushings should feel right at home, without the NVH typical with hard poly bushings.


Do you get any rubbing with your tires? That is actually about the same square set up with PSS's I was thinking of switching to later this year. I like the wider look of tires. :)

I loooooove my square set up. I get some rubbing in the rear when hitting decent sized undulations on the road and if I have heavy things in the trunk - tools, water, ammo, dead hookers, etc. Much more to do with the offset (ET35) than the width, as 255 is stock. On stockers or ET38, not so much.

Gratuitous photo:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr216/Karl_Lazlo/Public/2016-08-28%2021.58.13_zpssgciugrl.jpg (http://s485.photobucket.com/user/Karl_Lazlo/media/Public/2016-08-28%2021.58.13_zpssgciugrl.jpg.html)

[KevinC]

That's interesting to hear, I haven't experienced anything similar. Just out of curiosity, did he show you the alignment sheet afterwards?

No, though he did align it. Allegedly. I need to get off my ass and go talk to him about it - not at all pleased with how it drives. If it's as simple as a botched (or forgotten) alignment, I want it fixed ASAP.

[Vas]

I have some experience with poly bushings since I had the same mindset of using them for the same reasons as you which were longevity and an upgrade over the stock rubber bits.

My advice is ignore the poly and go for rubber bits from the M3/z4m. Use the z4m fcab, m3 engine mounts and trans mounts and z4m rtab ( or splurge for the bimmerworld rtab kit)

I ditched the poly in the fcab since they squeaked and I had to grease them to keep the noise down. Poly in the trans mounts was a nightmare on a street car with the noise from the gearbox.

If you don't plan to track the car and just want to upgrade while keeping the OE feel, go with rubber.

Also the poly and the z4m fcab feel exactly the same.

[BMWCurves]

I haven't driven anyone's car with poly bushings, so I can't speak about how the NVH, ride quality, or performance is with those. I can say I really like where my car is, suspension-wise using rubber bushings. I refreshed my suspension with the goal of getting a factory/OEM+ feeling i.e. still relatively comfortable with improved handling. To do so I used Koni Yellow shocks, kept the stock springs (necessary for where I live), Z4M RTABs with poly Vorshlag limiters, and Z4M FCABs. The Z4M rubber is solid rather than fluid filled like the stock ZHP bushings so they'll last longer and are a little stiffer. The Z4M FCABs increase the caster which I quite like how it feels on turn in. Additionally, I switched to from the heavy 135s (~50 lbs with the tire!) to a square setup using APEX ARC8s 17x8.5" ET40 shod in 245/40R17 Continental ExtremeContact DW tires. I shed some more unsprung weight with the BMW Performance brake rotors which shed about 3 lbs on each corner in the front and another pound or so on each rear.

The change was pretty significant. The car rides much better than before and is much more planted while providing even better steering feel that before. Bumps on one of my favorite roads used to upset and unbalance my car, but now they swallow the bumps and beg the car to be driven harder. I really like it and I could tell the difference in the reduced unsprung weight since I did the suspension refresh first followed by the wheels about six months later. The wheels are what really made my car feel like I can steer it with the throttle when I have traction control turned off. Poly might still be the way to go, but know if you take the more factory route, it's still a great setup.

Some helpful threads from when I did my refresh and was considering APEX wheel sizes:

Suspension thread: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?16182-Help-with-Suspension-Refresh-at-50k-miles-10-years
APEX thread: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?16922-Apex-ARC8-17-quot-vs-18-quot-Offset-and-Tire-Size-Questions

[Kimber]

I have some experience with poly bushings since I had the same mindset of using them for the same reasons as you which were longevity and an upgrade over the stock rubber bits.

My advice is ignore the poly and go for rubber bits from the M3/z4m. Use the z4m fcab, m3 engine mounts and trans mounts and z4m rtab ( or splurge for the bimmerworld rtab kit)

I ditched the poly in the fcab since they squeaked and I had to grease them to keep the noise down. Poly in the trans mounts was a nightmare on a street car with the noise from the gearbox.

If you don't plan to track the car and just want to upgrade while keeping the OE feel, go with rubber.

Also the poly and the z4m fcab feel exactly the same.

Thanks Vas, I plan on doing the OEM Z4M FCAB bushings and just use my old carrier's and press the new ones in. OEM M3 rubber stuff for the other things you said as well and have decided to splurge a little on the Bimmerworld RTAB for sure.

Your not saying to use factory rubber on the sway bar bushings as well are you?

More of my questions/concerns were on the poly differential mounts and subframe mount "inserts". I put 2 poly options for both locations linked in my first post. I was hoping to hear people's experiences with those area's.

Thanks!

[Kimber]

I haven't driven anyone's car with poly bushings, so I can't speak about how the NVH, ride quality, or performance is with those. I can say I really like where my car is, suspension-wise using rubber bushings. I refreshed my suspension with the goal of getting a factory/OEM+ feeling i.e. still relatively comfortable with improved handling. To do so I used Koni Yellow shocks, kept the stock springs (necessary for where I live), Z4M RTABs with poly Vorshlag limiters, and Z4M FCABs. The Z4M rubber is solid rather than fluid filled like the stock ZHP bushings so they'll last longer and are a little stiffer. The Z4M FCABs increase the caster which I quite like how it feels on turn in. Additionally, I switched to from the heavy 135s (~50 lbs with the tire!) to a square setup using APEX ARC8s 17x8.5" ET40 shod in 245/40R17 Continental ExtremeContact DW tires. I shed some more unsprung weight with the BMW Performance brake rotors which shed about 3 lbs on each corner in the front and another pound or so on each rear.

The change was pretty significant. The car rides much better than before and is much more planted while providing even better steering feel that before. Bumps on one of my favorite roads used to upset and unbalance my car, but now they swallow the bumps and beg the car to be driven harder. I really like it and I could tell the difference in the reduced unsprung weight since I did the suspension refresh first followed by the wheels about six months later. The wheels are what really made my car feel like I can steer it with the throttle when I have traction control turned off. Poly might still be the way to go, but know if you take the more factory route, it's still a great setup.

Some helpful threads from when I did my refresh and was considering APEX wheel sizes:

Suspension thread: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?16182-Help-with-Suspension-Refresh-at-50k-miles-10-years
APEX thread: http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?16922-Apex-ARC8-17-quot-vs-18-quot-Offset-and-Tire-Size-Questions


Thanks for the thoughts! I actually used your thread as a starting point along with some awesome incite from Slater! I'm probably dumb for throwing this all on at the same time, and would be better served the forum if I did one thing at a time and then responded with how it changed the car, but to be honest, I don't have that kind of time at the garage. My mechanic buddy owes me a big favor, and is doing this whole install for me (with my help) to square us up basically. (well he said he will help me install the cooling system refresh in the spring when I get that stuff ready...next project...LOL)

[slater]

I have some experience with poly bushings since I had the same mindset of using them for the same reasons as you which were longevity and an upgrade over the stock rubber bits.

My advice is ignore the poly and go for rubber bits from the M3/z4m. Use the z4m fcab, m3 engine mounts and trans mounts and z4m rtab ( or splurge for the bimmerworld rtab kit)

I ditched the poly in the fcab since they squeaked and I had to grease them to keep the noise down. Poly in the trans mounts was a nightmare on a street car with the noise from the gearbox.

If you don't plan to track the car and just want to upgrade while keeping the OE feel, go with rubber.

Also the poly and the z4m fcab feel exactly the same.

vas, did you even read his post? he's already planning on using everything you stated. the only place poly is going is the swaybar bushings, and rear subframe mounts and diff mounts - where it belongs.

not sure how your poly FCABs squeaked, what kind of lube were you using? i've installed about 6 sets of poly FCABs on various E46's and have never had any squeaking. i use a small amount of PFTE lube to guide the busing into the carrier and then the bushing onto the control arm. that's it.

[ryankokesh]

I've never had any squeaking either... Only lubed when installed, too.

[Vas]

vas, did you even read his post? he's already planning on using everything you stated. the only place poly is going is the swaybar bushings, and rear subframe mounts and diff mounts - where it belongs.

not sure how your poly FCABs squeaked, what kind of lube were you using? i've installed about 6 sets of poly FCABs on various E46's and have never had any squeaking. i use a small amount of PFTE lube to guide the busing into the carrier and then the bushing onto the control arm. that's it.

Nope. I just saw the title and shared my experience.

As far as the noise, I had contacted AKG when I had the first set. The customer service was great and they had informed me to clean and lube them again. Then after a certain period of time, the noise came back and they sent out another set of the fcab. I installed those based on their advice and lubed them with the supplied lube. The issue returned shortly so I ditched them and went with the Z4M fcab.

The issue from what I could tell was the inserts that go into the outer portion of the bushing and slide on the end of the control arm have excessive play and this resulted in the bushing having movement forward and back.

[slater]

Nope. I just saw the title and shared my experience.

dummy.



As far as the noise, I had contacted AKG when I had the first set. The customer service was great and they had informed me to clean and lube them again. Then after a certain period of time, the noise came back and they sent out another set of the fcab. I installed those based on their advice and lubed them with the supplied lube. The issue returned shortly so I ditched them and went with the Z4M fcab.

The issue from what I could tell was the inserts that go into the outer portion of the bushing and slide on the end of the control arm have excessive play and this resulted in the bushing having movement forward and back.

here's the funny part - i bought those bushings from you, remember? i have had them installed on my sedan for about 18 months now, with zero issues. ;) maybe you've got weird control arms?

[Vas]

dummy.




here's the funny part - i bought those bushings from you, remember? i have had them installed on my sedan for about 18 months now, with zero issues. ;) maybe you've got weird control arms?

LOL.

Well glad to hear you don't have any noise or issues with them. Maybe the end of the control arms is different. I never did measure the thickness of the aluminium.

[Sockethead]

Oh my, yes. Check your giubo and CSB coupled with diff and subframe mounts - It really is smooth as glass.

Ok great! What's CSB?

[slater]

LOL.

Well glad to hear you don't have any noise or issues with them. Maybe the end of the control arms is different. I never did measure the thickness of the aluminium.

must be the beefier Canadian ZAM Arms.. ;)



Ok great! What's CSB?

Carrier Support Bearing. the one in the middle of the driveshaft.

[holyc0w]

I've had the AKG 95A FCABs installed a few months ago. I haven't heard anything yet. :fingerscrossed Was it noticeable with the windows closed?

[Sockethead]

Carrier Support Bearing. the one in the middle of the driveshaft.
Ok thanks

[Kimber]

Just got back from getting the front ball joints and tie rods checked. All good, but front brake lines are not in the best shape, so going to replace those right away. ATE the way to go from what I hear?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-brake-hose-front-e46-e36-34326766966oe

While up on the lift I did notice there was a rectangular hole (maybe 1" x 3" or so) in what looked like a flywheel casing. Looks like some kind of cover should be on there but I can't find the part anywhere.

Does anyone know what that is called exactly or have a part number for me?

[Karl Lazlo]

The hole is for the factory brake cooling ducts.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part?id=BL93-USA-06-2002-E46-BMW-M3&mg=41&sg=10&diagId=41_1098&q=51712695664

[BMWCurves]

You might consider stainless steel brake lines as a replacement. I got my set from Turner Motorsport, they were StopTech branded.

[Kimber]

You might consider stainless steel brake lines as a replacement. I got my set from Turner Motorsport, they were StopTech branded.

Slater jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ATE are already stainless (just not showing it). They run like $50 for the pair up front, which is all that was cracking on my car (rears were in good shape).

Although I did find these at ECS (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/exact-fit-stainless-steel-brake-lines-front/ecs51002kt/) for $60 for the pair, but I would lose the lifetime warranty you get from FCPEuro.


But if you all think I should do all 4 corners, ECS also has this kit (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/exact-fit-stainless-steel-brake-lines-complete-kit/e46exkit/) for the whole car for $100 compared to $125 for the stoptech kit (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-stoptech-parts/stainless-steel-brake-line-set/plbe46m3dcoat/)

Should I be changing/flushing the brake fluid at this point as well?

[Kimber]

The hole is for the factory brake cooling ducts.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part?id=BL93-USA-06-2002-E46-BMW-M3&mg=41&sg=10&diagId=41_1098&q=51712695664

No, this is in the middle of the car like before the axle. My mechanic said it was a inspection port or something, but should have some kind of cover on it, I just couldn't find anything in my searches.

[Karl Lazlo]

Oh, that's the door/cover to access the oil drain.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=BU53-USA---E85-BMW-Z4+3.0si&diagId=51_4957

[BMWCurves]

Slater jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ATE are already stainless (just not showing it). They run like $50 for the pair up front, which is all that was cracking on my car (rears were in good shape).

Although I did find these at ECS (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/exact-fit-stainless-steel-brake-lines-front/ecs51002kt/) for $60 for the pair, but I would lose the lifetime warranty you get from FCPEuro.


But if you all think I should do all 4 corners, ECS also has this kit (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/exact-fit-stainless-steel-brake-lines-complete-kit/e46exkit/) for the whole car for $100 compared to $125 for the stoptech kit (https://www.ecstuning.com/b-stoptech-parts/stainless-steel-brake-line-set/plbe46m3dcoat/)

Should I be changing/flushing the brake fluid at this point as well?

I'm not sure they're stainless steel braided lines. That's the OEM part number listed, just made by ATE, and if it's an OE line like BMW, the lines are not stainless steel braided, they only have the cording.

You will want to bleed the brake system at a minimum, but might as well flush it fully since you're already there.

[Kimber]

Oh, that's the door/cover to access the oil drain.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=BU53-USA---E85-BMW-Z4+3.0si&diagId=51_4957

Karl, you are awesome, but that's not it either. This had like a metal wheel with teeth on it inside the housing. The cover must slip on or something, because there was no screw holes or anything that I could see.

[Kimber]

BMW Curves, that's what I was thinking on flushing the whole system. I'm already that far, might as well get fresh fluid in there. What is everyone using for fluid? I admit i didn't search the forum yet, just thought i would ask you guys. :)

What do you think the difference is between the ECS kit and the Powerstop kit? Is stainless pretty much the same?

And what about this full kit from FCPEuro (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-stainless-steel-braided-brake-hose-kit-e46-technafit-bmw1700), it's a little cheaper at $66.

And BimmerWorld has their kit (http://www.bimmerworld.com/E46-V2-Stainless-Steel-Brake-Line-Kit.html) as well for $120. LOL Is there really any difference between all these?

[Kimber]

So does anyone else have any real world experience with my questions in my OP?


I have the Powerflex rear subframe inserts in my list to save a couple bucks over the AKG set that would have been quite a bit more. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with these Powerflex inserts and if they are worth the savings of roughly $100 over the AKG set. The Powerflex street version is 70A compared to the AKG set which is 95A. (powerflex does have the race version which would be 95A as well)

The differential bushings were my other question. ECS sells a nice set and would be 88A compared to 80A for the powerflex street version I have in my list. ECS is a little cheaper. Does anyone have any experience with either of these brands or recommend using something different?


And if I am going to do brake lines and fluid flush, what do you guys recommend from the above info I posted.

I'd really like to get a little more input before I order everything, but I was hoping to make the order soon so I can get this project completed. :)

So come on guys, what's everyone's experience and thoughts? Appreciate it as always!

[sillieidiot]

BMW Curves, that's what I was thinking on flushing the whole system. I'm already that far, might as well get fresh fluid in there. What is everyone using for fluid? I admit i didn't search the forum yet, just thought i would ask you guys. :)

What do you think the difference is between the ECS kit and the Powerstop kit? Is stainless pretty much the same?

And what about this full kit from FCPEuro (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-stainless-steel-braided-brake-hose-kit-e46-technafit-bmw1700), it's a little cheaper at $66.

And BimmerWorld has their kit (http://www.bimmerworld.com/E46-V2-Stainless-Steel-Brake-Line-Kit.html) as well for $120. LOL Is there really any difference between all these?

I run Motul RBF600. But you don't really need something with that high of a boiling point if you're just DDing. I'd just go with some OE ones and it should be fine. Or any DOT4. ATE gold is another good one.

They are more or less the same. Most of them are made to DOT specs. I think Stoptech/Bimmerworld (from your list) are like the only ones that are DOT approved. I have Stoptechs. But I just sold off a set of Bimmerworld recently that looked just as good.

[ZHPizza]

I believe you'll want DOT4 LV (low viscosity) to work with the DSC system. Pentosin is the OEM for BMW.

Pentosin DOT 4 LV Brake Fluid (1 Liter) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0070Y9CE4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_2hhNybDEBFBR9

[Kimber]

I run Motul RBF600. But you don't really need something with that high of a boiling point if you're just DDing. I'd just go with some OE ones and it should be fine. Or any DOT4. ATE gold is another good one.

They are more or less the same. Most of them are made to DOT specs. I think Stoptech/Bimmerworld (from your list) are like the only ones that are DOT approved. I have Stoptechs. But I just sold off a set of Bimmerworld recently that looked just as good.

Thanks!

I've used the ATE typ 200 in my truck before as it was highly recommended as a great fluid without breaking the bank on cost.

To flush our system, will 1 liter be enough?

I did see that the FCPEuro ones are made in USA and are DOT certified. For the price on a set of 4 (almost half what the others want) and the fact that they are lifetime warranty, I might go with those and see how they are. I sort of figured braided lines are all pretty much the same, but just wanted to make sure.

[Kimber]

I believe you'll want DOT4 LV (low viscosity) to work with the DSC system. Pentosin is the OEM for BMW.

Pentosin DOT 4 LV Brake Fluid (1 Liter) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0070Y9CE4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_2hhNybDEBFBR9

Thanks! I have read that many people use the regular viscosity without any problems to our systems. I've been trying to read up on flushing the brake fluid now, and that is where I think I read that from many people.

Also, I think people say we have to flush and then go drive and make the ABS come on a couple times, and then go back and bleed some more to get the old fluid out of the that system. I didn't get that far researching it yet, but can anyone confirm that is the proper way to flush everything? Is the panic stop necessary? :)

[ZHPizza]

Thanks! I have read that many people use the regular viscosity without any problems to our systems. I've been trying to read up on flushing the brake fluid now, and that is where I think I read that from many people.

Also, I think people say we have to flush and then go drive and make the ABS come on a couple times, and then go back and bleed some more to get the old fluid out of the that system. I didn't get that far researching it yet, but can anyone confirm that is the proper way to flush everything? Is the panic stop necessary? :)
The dealer has a method for flushing the ABS system, but I'm not sure if we can access it.

[sillieidiot]

Thanks!

I've used the ATE typ 200 in my truck before as it was highly recommended as a great fluid without breaking the bank on cost.

To flush our system, will 1 liter be enough?

I did see that the FCPEuro ones are made in USA and are DOT certified. For the price on a set of 4 (almost half what the others want) and the fact that they are lifetime warranty, I might go with those and see how they are. I sort of figured braided lines are all pretty much the same, but just wanted to make sure.

I don't remember how much I used. But I do remember buying 2 bottles just in case. Plus you will have a bottle to top off later if you need to.

Yeah those are probably fine. I believe they are from Goodridge which is a pretty good supplier. I think they can take only like 3000 psi. And the more expensive ones are like 4500 psi. Which makes no difference for normal driving. I doubt it ever goes that much for normal driving.


Thanks! I have read that many people use the regular viscosity without any problems to our systems. I've been trying to read up on flushing the brake fluid now, and that is where I think I read that from many people.

Also, I think people say we have to flush and then go drive and make the ABS come on a couple times, and then go back and bleed some more to get the old fluid out of the that system. I didn't get that far researching it yet, but can anyone confirm that is the proper way to flush everything? Is the panic stop necessary? :)

Not really. But if you want to be thorough then yes. Especially if you don't have the programs to do it. I was able to do the ABS procedure through ISTA/D. I replaced all my lines including the clutch and had to do the procedure because I kept getting the DSC + brake light after the flush.

[Kimber]

I don't remember how much I used. But I do remember buying 2 bottles just in case. Plus you will have a bottle to top off later if you need to.

Yeah those are probably fine. I believe they are from Goodridge which is a pretty good supplier. I think they can take only like 3000 psi. And the more expensive ones are like 4500 psi. Which makes no difference for normal driving. I doubt it ever goes that much for normal driving.



Not really. But if you want to be thorough then yes. Especially if you don't have the programs to do it. I was able to do the ABS procedure through ISTA/D. I replaced all my lines including the clutch and had to do the procedure because I kept getting the DSC + brake light after the flush.

I actually found the place that makes them called technafit (http://www.technafitstore.com/BMW-Brake-Line-Kit-p/bmw-1700.htm) I think i will give them a try since they look like good quality and very good price for the full set.

Thanks for the info on the ABS as well, that should be fun. :(

[Kimber]

Well got things moving on the install today, and the front is all done, along with new stainless brake lines, plus the engine and trans mounts are done. Wasn't too bad at all.

Problem is that we got to the passenger rear and while pressing in the M3 top ball joint, the trailing arm cracked where the ball joint goes. So pissed! Already had the bimmerworld RTAB installed as well so now that has to come out again. My buddy said he has never seen anything like it. He was so pissed. And he was using a ball joint pressing tool, we weren't even using home made stuff.

Does anyone know if the M3 trailing arm is the same as ours? I am not buying a new one for $600, I have to find a used one at the junk yard I guess, but that would give me more options if the M3 is the same as ours.

So frustrated!

[anandoc]

Well got things moving on the install today, and the front is all done, along with new stainless brake lines, plus the engine and trans mounts are done. Wasn't too bad at all.

Problem is that we got to the passenger rear and while pressing in the M3 top ball joint, the trailing arm cracked where the ball joint goes. So pissed! Already had the bimmerworld RTAB installed as well so now that has to come out again. My buddy said he has never seen anything like it. He was so pissed. And he was using a ball joint pressing tool, we weren't even using home made stuff.

Does anyone know if the M3 trailing arm is the same as ours? I am not buying a new one for $600, I have to find a used one at the junk yard I guess, but that would give me more options if the M3 is the same as ours.

So frustrated!

Sorry to hear about the trailing arm. Pretty sure M3 trailing arms are not compatible with the non-M cars.

Part# for M3 trailing arm: 33322229685/86
Part# for E46 sedan trailing arm: 33326774779/80

[Karl Lazlo]

Oh, man, that sucks. Trailing arms are not interchangeable b/t the "regular" E46 and the M3. The trailing arms are interchangeable among the 330ci, 330i and the xi cars (sedan, touring). You may have luck with Ebay.

[ELCID86]

That does suck. Hope you get it sorted quickly.

[Kimber]

Thanks guys, I wasn't sure so I'm glad I asked the experts! LOL I saw the part numbers being different, but I thought maybe it was because they came with the M3 ball joints instead of the way our's are set up.

No matter, I am going to look on ebay, and my mechanic is going to check some local junk yards. He is also checking with this welder that has done work for him a lot in the past that can weld cast. It didn't break apart, just cracked right where the upper ball joint goes.

Do you guys think welding it would be alright? (if the guy says it can be done) I would think it would be WAY cheaper than any of the other options.

Thanks!

PS The front coilovers do look sexy though! LOL

[slater]

Problem is that we got to the passenger rear and while pressing in the M3 top ball joint, the trailing arm cracked where the ball joint goes. So pissed! Already had the bimmerworld RTAB installed as well so now that has to come out again. My buddy said he has never seen anything like it. He was so pissed. And he was using a ball joint pressing tool, we weren't even using home made stuff.

Does anyone know if the M3 trailing arm is the same as ours? I am not buying a new one for $600, I have to find a used one at the junk yard I guess, but that would give me more options if the M3 is the same as ours.

So frustrated!

that sucks, bryan! sorry to hear. can't believe the trailing arm cracked, that is a substantial and robust piece. do you have a pic of the crack?

i guess welding could work, the problem is that now maybe the hole diameter is a little bigger and maybe the ball joint won't be as secure in there - i dunno, you'll just have to try...

as others mentioned, the M3 trailing arm is not the same part number. the differences are at the hub itself, if i remember correctly. and it has the "///M" casting on it, LOL. ;)

[Kimber]

I didn't take any pictures, I was so pissed we just put it back together so we could get it off the lift for later this week. I will ask him to snap a picture on Monday. It cracked towards the inside of the car, if that makes sense. It was almost like the M3 ball joint was too big for it. It was going, slowly, and then BAM, loud pop and the ball joint went in. Initially we thought it was all good, but then we looked and saw the crack. He felt really bad because he said he has never seen that happen before.

[Karl Lazlo]

PS The front coilovers do look sexy though! LOL

Well... make with the pictures! I have my pants off waiting for photos of sexy coilovers!

[Kimber]

Well... make with the pictures! I have my pants off waiting for photos of sexy coilovers!

Sorry it will be another couple days, as I can't get lift time again until Saturday. But I did find a used trailing arm at a local yard, so I'll be picking that up this week and we should be able to finish up this Saturday.

We are taking the other trailing arm off the car to make sure that this doesn't happen again when pressing in the new M3 ball joints!!

Subframe "inserts" and all 3 diff bushings is all we really have left then to complete the whole refresh! Hopefully be able to get it right on the alignment machine later that day.

Anyone have some recommendations for alignment things I should be asking for. Certain numbers, etc.?

Thanks!

[anandoc]

Anyone have some recommendations for alignment things I should be asking for. Certain numbers, etc.?

Thanks!

Glad to hear you found a trailing arm at a local yard.

Here is a thread around ZHP alignment specs and pics you might want to check out:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?321-BMW-330-ZHP-alignment-and-data-Pics

[ELCID86]

Hunter machine with latest updates. Make sure they use sport suspension.

[Kimber]

Glad to hear you found a trailing arm at a local yard.

Here is a thread around ZHP alignment specs and pics you might want to check out:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?321-BMW-330-ZHP-alignment-and-data-Pics

Thanks for the link that will help for sure!

[Kimber]

Back at it this morning, let's keep our fingers crossed i don't break anything else! LOL Pictures will be coming later, I won't forget today. :)

[Kimber]

Next time I say I want to do something like this, you guys just tell me not to. LOL What a pain in my ass! 20+ hours later (and $1500 in labor, which he owed me, but still) and we finally got everything done. Alignment shop was closed by the time we got everything completed, so that will have to wait until later this coming week.

We ended up dropping the exhaust and then took the diff completely out. Lowered the subframe enough to get the poly inserts in the rear, but the fronts weren't as easy. We were getting tired, so we snipped the top insert so we could put it around the bolt and into place, rather than disconnecting the parking brake cable and dropping the sub frame completely. My stock subframe bushings were in like brand new shape, so I think the inserts will work out great. My diff bushings were also like brand new, so I felt dumb replacing them, but we did it anyway. :)

I don't know how you guys got these bushings done without taking everything out. No way we could get tools in there straight enough to pull/push the stuff in.

I have some questions but I am super beat so I will post those tomorrow. Here's some pictures for you guys!!

Thanks for everyone's help and advise!!

29198291992920029201292022920329204292052920629207 29208

[slater]

excellent!!

how does it feel? :)

[Karl Lazlo]

Good stuff! Thanks for the pics! :-)

[ELCID86]

Nice work. Glad the tool came in handy. You can do the large rear diff bushing without removing the subframe but not the other two forward ones.

[Sockethead]

Looks good. You guys did a lot of work It's good that you did the rear diff bushing because that will fail eventually. That bushing has been bad in the three cars I've done diff swaps on. It's a bad design.

[Kimber]

Thanks guys! It was ALOT of work, way more than I thought, but hopefully it will all be worth it! LOL We'll see this week after I get to the alignment shop, as I haven't even driven the car yet.

So some of my concerns and questions:

After we had pressed in one of the M3 ball joints in the lower position, we weren't watching and the control arm cut the rubber on the outside. We put some sealant on it, but I am worried now. Do you guys think it will be OK?

I have never had coilovers, so maybe this is normal (and it hasn't been to alignment shop yet), but there is like no travel in the suspension. I mean you try to push down on the car and it seems like it doesn't even move. Is this right?

The rear springs were way shorter than the stock ones. I forgot to take a picture side by side, but again maybe they are supposed to be that way, but they just look super short.

The alignment shop I'm going to is the guy my mechanic friend uses all the time and he says he is really good and has newer equipment (he wasn't sure which brand) but I also wanted to make sure I am up to speed on things I should be making sure that I am watching out for. I have that thread you guys posted and will read over that again and take it with me, but what else should I be making sure is done correctly?

I seem to remember reading a while ago about people saying things about loading different things before tightening them, and to be honest we didn't do any of that while installing anything. My mechanic didn't say we needed to do anything, so I let it go. I just wanted to make sure I am doing this all correctly. :)

Appreciate feedback guys! Thanks!

[Kimber]

excellent!!

how does it feel? :)


We'll see this week after I get to the alignment shop, as I haven't even driven the car yet. :)

[Kimber]

Nice work. Glad the tool came in handy. You can do the large rear diff bushing without removing the subframe but not the other two forward ones.

Yes thanks again, Monday it's on it's way back to you. :)

[sillieidiot]

Thanks guys! It was ALOT of work, way more than I thought, but hopefully it will all be worth it! LOL We'll see this week after I get to the alignment shop, as I haven't even driven the car yet.

It's worth it lol


I have never had coilovers, so maybe this is normal (and it hasn't been to alignment shop yet), but there is like no travel in the suspension. I mean you try to push down on the car and it seems like it doesn't even move. Is this right?

yeah that's normal. But you might want to check to see if it's on full stiff and change it back to full soft for the mean time if it hasn't already been done. It'll loosen up a little more as you drive it.


The rear springs were way shorter than the stock ones. I forgot to take a picture side by side, but again maybe they are supposed to be that way, but they just look super short.

Yeah that's normal too. It just depends on the coilover manufacturer to spec them. We have less height clearance in the rear so a shorter spring helps. The spring rate is probably going to be higher than your stock ones anyways.


The alignment shop I'm going to is the guy my mechanic friend uses all the time and he says he is really good and has newer equipment (he wasn't sure which brand) but I also wanted to make sure I am up to speed on things I should be making sure that I am watching out for. I have that thread you guys posted and will read over that again and take it with me, but what else should I be making sure is done correctly?

There's not much to watch out for really. You can try to make them go for a completely symmetrical setup so that the measurements mirror each other if you want. Because most places, all they do is try to get you within spec (be in the green). It doesn't mean that you will have say like exactly -2 deg camber on each side. You could be at like -1.5 left, -.8 right (just an example, not actual values) and it'll still be within spec.

The other thing, is to make sure they actually weigh down the car. Some places don't even do that.


I seem to remember reading a while ago about people saying things about loading different things before tightening them, and to be honest we didn't do any of that while installing anything. My mechanic didn't say we needed to do anything, so I let it go. I just wanted to make sure I am doing this all correctly. :)

Appreciate feedback guys! Thanks!

You don't really need to do that. That's mainly for like sway bars. But I don't think you replaced the sway bars?

If the car drive's straight enough (sometimes when you replace to many things, it might not lol), I highly recommend that you drive around for a bit so that everything settles in first before you do an alignment. Usually your car will get lower a bit and it won't be as stiff. Then next figure out the height you want to be on your coilovers. Then after that, go in for an alignment. Otherwise if you get an alignment now, everything will change in like 100 miles and you'll be out of spec.

[Kimber]

It's worth it lol



yeah that's normal. But you might want to check to see if it's on full stiff and change it back to full soft for the mean time if it hasn't already been done. It'll loosen up a little more as you drive it.



Yeah that's normal too. It just depends on the coilover manufacturer to spec them. We have less height clearance in the rear so a shorter spring helps. The spring rate is probably going to be higher than your stock ones anyways.



There's not much to watch out for really. You can try to make them go for a completely symmetrical setup so that the measurements mirror each other if you want. Because most places, all they do is try to get you within spec (be in the green). It doesn't mean that you will have say like exactly -2 deg camber on each side. You could be at like -1.5 left, -.8 right (just an example, not actual values) and it'll still be within spec.

The other thing, is to make sure they actually weigh down the car. Some places don't even do that.



You don't really need to do that. That's mainly for like sway bars. But I don't think you replaced the sway bars?

If the car drive's straight enough (sometimes when you replace to many things, it might not lol), I highly recommend that you drive around for a bit so that everything settles in first before you do an alignment. Usually your car will get lower a bit and it won't be as stiff. Then next figure out the height you want to be on your coilovers. Then after that, go in for an alignment. Otherwise if you get an alignment now, everything will change in like 100 miles and you'll be out of spec.

Thanks buddy! Yeah I have them on full soft, there are 7 adjustment levels, and I emailed YCW to make sure clockwise was to make them harder and they confirmed that is correct.

I also emailed YCW about the rear springs and their reply was that although the spring is going to be shorter than stock, they are designing/making the adjustable mount with longer threads so we have more adjustability. I'm waiting to find out how long it will be until they send me the new pair of mounts.

And thanks on the alignment info, so I want them to try to make both sides as equal as they can, correct? That's is the kind of info I was looking for from you experts! I would not have known to ask for that. LOL

And what do you mean weigh the car?

I'm actually thinking that I am going to go get the car and drive it (hopefully it's not too badly off on alignment) for a couple days and try to put a 100 or so miles on it. Then take it to the alignment shop. I've spent my budget on this project (and then some) already, and I know this alignment is going to probably be $150 with all the time they will have in it, so the last thing I want to do is have to pay to do it again shortly after. Again this is the info I am looking for from you guys, as I would have never thought about that. :)

And I did swap my stock 23.5mm front sway bar for a stock M3 vert bar which is 27mm. The rear I left alone as I have the 20mm (because I am vert). So was there something we should have done with that since I swapped it out. I did put powerflex bushings on both front and rear bars as well as new links (stock rear and the YCW came with adjustable links for front)

YCW did say that since I upgraded my front bar that "this is technically the same as increasing your spring rates, so you may need to actually stiffen the damping slightly on the dampers." I have no idea what that means, so I emailed them for clarification, but maybe you guys know. LOL

Thanks so much!

[John in VA]

I seem to remember reading a while ago about people saying things about loading different things before tightening them, and to be honest we didn't do any of that while installing anything. My mechanic didn't say we needed to do anything, so I let it go. I just wanted to make sure I am doing this all correctly.


You don't really need to do that. That's mainly for like sway bars. But I don't think you replaced the sway bars?

I thought having the suspension loaded was also suggested for control arms, upper thrust rods, etc.

[Sockethead]

Control arm bushings and trailing arm bushings

[sillieidiot]

Thanks buddy! Yeah I have them on full soft, there are 7 adjustment levels, and I emailed YCW to make sure clockwise was to make them harder and they confirmed that is correct.

I also emailed YCW about the rear springs and their reply was that although the spring is going to be shorter than stock, they are designing/making the adjustable mount with longer threads so we have more adjustability. I'm waiting to find out how long it will be until they send me the new pair of mounts.

Yeah that's what the shorter spring is for. You don't really need a longer mount tbh. You'll probably be at the lower end of the mount lol

And thanks on the alignment info, so I want them to try to make both sides as equal as they can, correct? That's is the kind of info I was looking for from you experts! I would not have known to ask for that. LOL

And what do you mean weigh the car?

If you want, you don't really need to though. As long as it's in the green then you should be good. I like to have mines a little more symmetrical. But I also do have a custom alignment spec so it's easier to make them do it since they have no "in spec" range to go for lol

For weighing down the car, I mean like the sandbags/ballast or whatever they use to get the car at the correct weight when doing the alignment. It's probably in the alignment thread or something. There's different ballasting specs for a vert. It's not that critical though. A majority of places don't even do this.

I'm actually thinking that I am going to go get the car and drive it (hopefully it's not too badly off on alignment) for a couple days and try to put a 100 or so miles on it. Then take it to the alignment shop. I've spent my budget on this project (and then some) already, and I know this alignment is going to probably be $150 with all the time they will have in it, so the last thing I want to do is have to pay to do it again shortly after. Again this is the info I am looking for from you guys, as I would have never thought about that. :)

Yeah that would be good. Make sure you adjust the height to what you want before you align it. It should sit a little lower after that 100 or so miles.

And I did swap my stock 23.5mm front sway bar for a stock M3 vert bar which is 27mm. The rear I left alone as I have the 20mm (because I am vert). So was there something we should have done with that since I swapped it out. I did put powerflex bushings on both front and rear bars as well as new links (stock rear and the YCW came with adjustable links for front)

Ah I didn't see that. Well generally you want to attach the endlinks when with the car down on ramps or something. But it should be ok if you didn't do it. Just listen for any clunking noises. If you hear that, it could be the sways hitting the control arm.

YCW did say that since I upgraded my front bar that "this is technically the same as increasing your spring rates, so you may need to actually stiffen the damping slightly on the dampers." I have no idea what that means, so I emailed them for clarification, but maybe you guys know. LOL

Yep, that's exactly what it does. But I think they meant to adjust the rebound. Isn't the YCW a 1-way adjustable suspension? Since it's stiffer, it's going to feel bouncier so you're going to want to stiffen it up to stop that. Just don't go too much, and then end up losing traction over bumps. Stiffer != better lol

Thanks so much!

Answers in bold


I thought having the suspension loaded was also suggested for control arms, upper thrust rods, etc.


Control arm bushings and trailing arm bushings

it depends on the car and the bushings used. The control arm bushings don't really need to be pre-loaded on the E46. On the front it only goes in one way and there's not much movement. It's the same with the rear. The RTABs you would need to, especially if you're lowered. But he has the bimmerworld ones that can basically articulate in any direction already so there's no need. If you use poly bushings, generally you don't have to deal with pre-load either.

[Kimber]

I am taking the car for a drive today that should put 100+ miles on it. I picked it up yesterday from garage and it is so stiff I got a headache driving home! I'm really hoping that it's just that we don't have anything adjusted for proper length, etc. yet. (YCW did email me that the rear shocks are also adjustable for length which we didn't realize when we were installing them and just left them where they were when shipped. YCW has been great with all my emails and questions by the way!) I'm not a track guy, so I didn't want the ride to suffer, just wanted the best handling I could get for spirited driving. I'm hoping i didn't make a mistake with buying this stuff. :)

I have appointment at 8AM Wednesday at the alignment shop and we are going to adjust everything for proper height and then do the alignment.

Sillieidiot, thanks so much for your info!! I have the rear spring adjustment collar (that is mounted on the arm with the spring above it) pretty much at the top of the threads right now and the rear sits too low. I think that is the point of YCW sending me (and future E46 customers) the revised rear spring perch with more threads so the collar can be raised further away from the arm to give additional height of the rear end. Am I correct on that?

As per the sway bars, the rear is stock, so there isn't much adjustment I can do there, but I will try to check when I am in for the alignment that everything is clearing nicely. For the front, YCW sent these super beefy adjustable links with ball joints (or whatever they are called), so when doing the alignment I'll make sure to check them as well and adjust as needed so everything clears. You can see pics in this thread (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?18122-YCW-Reference-Series-Coilovers-(Round-2-Testing)-From-1020/page3).

And for the weighing down for alignment, so like should I sit in the car while he is doing it? Also I am planning, in the spring, to install a new stereo system with a couple amps in the driver side rear compartment and a 18" subwoofer in a custom fiberglass enclosure where the spare tire would go. So should I make sure we put a little weight in the trunk to compensate for that future equipment? Would that be a good idea?

And for your comments about rebound, you lost me there. There is a knob on each shock with 7 click adjustments for softer to harder, is that what you are saying?

Again thanks for all your help, I am clueless to this suspension stuff, but learning a ton, and hopefully this will help other people reading as well. :)

[slater]

it depends on the car and the bushings used. The control arm bushings don't really need to be pre-loaded on the E46. On the front it only goes in one way and there's not much movement. It's the same with the rear. The RTABs you would need to, especially if you're lowered. But he has the bimmerworld ones that can basically articulate in any direction already so there's no need. If you use poly bushings, generally you don't have to deal with pre-load either.

agreed on the poly and the spherical ones, but any rubber bushing (aside from the front control arm bushing) needs to be pre-loaded. otherwise it will wear prematurely.



I am taking the car for a drive today that should put 100+ miles on it. I picked it up yesterday from garage and it is so stiff I got a headache driving home! I'm really hoping that it's just that we don't have anything adjusted for proper length, etc. yet.

interesting. the spring rates that YCW/MFactory are using are not much stiffer than stock, but there IS a lot of adjustability in the system, so if you don't have things setup correctly (like front spring preload, rear shock length, damper settings!), it will not be pleasant. this is the downside to a highly-adjustable system - if you don't set it up correctly, it can be really awful.

[Kimber]

what did you guys think about that M3 ball joint question where after we installed it the bottom arm came up and cut the rubber outside. We put some sealant on it, but will that be OK?

[MFactory]

With all of the solid bushings that you put in, this will also be one of the reasons why it feels a lot harder/stiffer than stock, as they don't absorb any of the bumps/movement that your oem bushings do, instead transferring it directly to your butt dyno :p

[Kimber]

With all of the solid bushings that you put in, this will also be one of the reasons why it feels a lot harder/stiffer than stock, as they don't absorb any of the bumps/movement that your oem bushings do, instead transferring it directly to your butt dyno :p

It wasn't so much the butt but the balls! LOL I needed a kidney belt driving it with our "fantastic" roads in PA! LOL Just no travel, hard as a rock.

Alignment this morning and then we will see. LOL I sure hope your wrong about the solid bushings, and that it is just that when we installed your coilovers we just didn't have things adjusted correctly for length, etc. I put about 150 miles on now, so in to the alignment shop she goes. LOL Fingers crossed!

Thanks for your quick responses to my emails MFactory, much appreciated!

[sillieidiot]

I am taking the car for a drive today that should put 100+ miles on it. I picked it up yesterday from garage and it is so stiff I got a headache driving home! I'm really hoping that it's just that we don't have anything adjusted for proper length, etc. yet. (YCW did email me that the rear shocks are also adjustable for length which we didn't realize when we were installing them and just left them where they were when shipped. YCW has been great with all my emails and questions by the way!) I'm not a track guy, so I didn't want the ride to suffer, just wanted the best handling I could get for spirited driving. I'm hoping i didn't make a mistake with buying this stuff. :)

I have appointment at 8AM Wednesday at the alignment shop and we are going to adjust everything for proper height and then do the alignment.

Sillieidiot, thanks so much for your info!! I have the rear spring adjustment collar (that is mounted on the arm with the spring above it) pretty much at the top of the threads right now and the rear sits too low. I think that is the point of YCW sending me (and future E46 customers) the revised rear spring perch with more threads so the collar can be raised further away from the arm to give additional height of the rear end. Am I correct on that?

Hmm. Their mount must be smaller than normal for it to be at the top of the threads. Or their springs are considerably smaller. My rear spring is like 5.5" and it's sitting near the bottom of the mount. Do you still have the spring pads? Try putting one of them back in. That should give you the equivalent of like 3 threads in height.

As per the sway bars, the rear is stock, so there isn't much adjustment I can do there, but I will try to check when I am in for the alignment that everything is clearing nicely. For the front, YCW sent these super beefy adjustable links with ball joints (or whatever they are called), so when doing the alignment I'll make sure to check them as well and adjust as needed so everything clears. You can see pics in this thread (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?18122-YCW-Reference-Series-Coilovers-(Round-2-Testing)-From-1020/page3).

Yeah it should be fine for the rear unless you're too low. But you don't really get a clunking noise when that happens. The endlinks just break lol Yeah those links look super beefy.

And for the weighing down for alignment, so like should I sit in the car while he is doing it? Also I am planning, in the spring, to install a new stereo system with a couple amps in the driver side rear compartment and a 18" subwoofer in a custom fiberglass enclosure where the spare tire would go. So should I make sure we put a little weight in the trunk to compensate for that future equipment? Would that be a good idea?

Don't worry about it. You don't have to ballast the car. It's just if you want to follow everything to a T. Just get an alignment when you have a normal tank of gas and they should be able to do the rest if they are a good shop. You should ask them about anything that you're interested in too.

And for your comments about rebound, you lost me there. There is a knob on each shock with 7 click adjustments for softer to harder, is that what you are saying?

I skimmed that thread. It does state that it is only rebound adjustable like I thought. That adjustment in simple terms is basically adjusting the rate that it takes for the shocks to go from compressed to fully extended. But yeah that is what I was talking about.

Again thanks for all your help, I am clueless to this suspension stuff, but learning a ton, and hopefully this will help other people reading as well. :)

in bold again


agreed on the poly and the spherical ones, but any rubber bushing (aside from the front control arm bushing) needs to be pre-loaded. otherwise it will wear prematurely.

interesting. the spring rates that YCW/MFactory are using are not much stiffer than stock, but there IS a lot of adjustability in the system, so if you don't have things setup correctly (like front spring preload, rear shock length, damper settings!), it will not be pleasant. this is the downside to a highly-adjustable system - if you don't set it up correctly, it can be really awful.

Yeah that's basically what I said. The two people pointed out control arms bushings. I'm pretty sure you can't pre-load the rear control arm bushing either. If you were replacing them with adjustable ones, then it's even more pointless because the other end is free spinning.

It's not the spring rate really. The suspension uses spherical mounts for their top mounts. That transfers a lot of NVH. The spring rates are fine as long as the dampers are correctly valved for them. He also replaced like all his bushings with polys which has more NVH than stock too.

But I agree that he needs to dial things in. But overall, his setup should be stiffer than stock.

[slater]

It wasn't so much the butt but the balls! LOL I needed a kidney belt driving it with our "fantastic" roads in PA! LOL Just no travel, hard as a rock.

the diff mounts and other bushings won't account for no travel... that's all spring, shock and swaybar.

hope you get it sorted out, man.... did you go with the YCW/MFactory spring rates? (4K/12K) those should not be crazy stiff (about 50% stiffer than stock up front, and 10% softer than stock under max compression... roughly 80% stiffer than stock at 1" compression). if i remember correctly the bilstein PSS are around 4.4F/6.7R (average rate - they are progressive), so stiffer up front than the YCWs but much softer in the rear (and too soft in the rear in my opinion).

what are your damper settings at? sorry if i missed that.



Yeah that's basically what I said. The two people pointed out control arms bushings. I'm pretty sure you can't pre-load the rear control arm bushing either.

you can, like any conventional control arm bushing (and our rear control arm bushings - the rubber ones - are conventional). leave the bolts loose, compress the suspension to normal ride height, then tighten the bolts to spec.



It's not the spring rate really. The suspension uses spherical mounts for their top mounts. That transfers a lot of NVH. The spring rates are fine as long as the dampers are correctly valved for them. He also replaced like all his bushings with polys which has more NVH than stock too.

But I agree that he needs to dial things in. But overall, his setup should be stiffer than stock.

the NVH will be a little higher but those mounts won't make it feel like the suspension has no travel - they are not in the suspension.

i agree about the valving, i think that is the X factor at this point. that and rear shock length (remember he said it was adjustable), spring preload on the front coilovers and preload on the swaybar endlinks. lots of tweaking to do. OK..... many X factors. ;)

[MFactory]

Do you feel the stiffness in the front or the rear?

If the front, the fact that you went up by around 4mm for your swaybar is a significant hike that you will need to dial out.

For the rear, our dampers are inverted in the rear, so "clockwise" is actually "anti-clockwise" if you're adjusting it looking downwards.

Also, as our valving is digressive, you will feel the bumps a bit more at lower speeds, but at the same time, is far more planted.

[Kimber]

Do you feel the stiffness in the front or the rear?

If the front, the fact that you went up by around 4mm for your swaybar is a significant hike that you will need to dial out.

For the rear, our dampers are inverted in the rear, so "clockwise" is actually "anti-clockwise" if you're adjusting it looking downwards.

Also, as our valving is digressive, you will feel the bumps a bit more at lower speeds, but at the same time, is far more planted.

Now you have me confused on the dampening adjustment. LOL The rear when mounted have a S - H printed on the mount. I was assuming that you turn towards the S for softest, which would be like you are loosening a screw (counter clockwise). Is that not correct?

And to be certain I wasn't missing a part, there is no bump stop that should be installed on the rear, correct? The alignment guy thought there should be something.

[Kimber]

OK guys, I am finally back from alignment shop. COMPLETELY disappointed and ready to break. I have spent roughly 5 hours there and the car is horrible. We spent about 3 or so hours messing with height adjustment and I don't feel at all comfortable that it was done correctly. The ride quality is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE!! And my bill was $575!!!

So let me start by saying the reason the ride was so harsh after install was because I was not aware the rear shocks were length adjustable and I assumed that since these were specifically for a E46 that they would be somewhere in the range from the factory. TOTALLY wrong. YCW must make these very short for shipping reasons or something. The springs were basically totally compressed so there was basically no movement at all in the rear. No wonder my balls hurt so bad after 100 mile drive. :)

After adjusting the spring perch to about 1/2" from the top and then lengthening the rear shock we got some movement, but I think it is still too low in the rear. Now as I said before, YCW has already said they are going to redo the perch with one that has more threads so the collar can be moved higher, thus raising the back end and I assume allowing the shock to be extended longer as well. Will this improve ride quality? Because as it sits now, it is WAY too stiff/harsh and this was with the dampers turned all the way towards the "S" which should be soft. I did turn them the total opposite direction and it was still way harsh but seemed to be a tad less. (which confused me because they should have been on the 7th setting now and harder)

And as you can see from the alignment picture, he said he only saw that we have one adjustment bolt at the bottom, and he could not get it any better than that. He said that is not good for the tires and that I would have to get aftermarket camber bolts or adjustable control arms to get it to be in spec. ????? More money, for real?

Now on to the front. Again super harsh ride. When we installed these before, we did lengthen them to about 19" I believe. (but don't hold me to that number) Again, YCW must make them as short as possible for some reason. You would think they would come at least close to the proper length. But anyway, just frustrated with the whole thing. The alignment guy did not extend the shocks any longer than we had them from install, from what I could see he dropped the collar(under the front spring) down a bit. I have no idea about this stuff, but he said that's what we needed to do (not lengthen the shock).

I'll have to email YCW about a new front link as well, as he said he tried to take the mounting nut off the bottom and it just spun. Like the nylon is spinning or something he said. He could not tighten or loosen it. He said it literally needs to be cut off. He even tried with a lock pliers on the other side, and it was the nut that was spinning. So not exactly sure what the deal is with that, but I will let YCW chime in.

So YCW, and all you other guys, I really hope you can help me figure out what is going on here. When i bought these shocks, I just wanted great handling without sacrificing ride quality. I took this car to the mechanic that helped me install everything and let him drive it, and he said his dirt track race car rides better than my car now. I laughed, but was crying inside. :) I have almost $3,500 invested in this project with parts and labor (and thats my mechanic buddy hooking me up on labor rate) and that isn't even adding in the YCW shocks to that total. I am beyond frustrated and super disappointed at this point. I am hoping it is just something that you guys see that is done wrong and can be adjusted. PLEASE, I hope that's what it is.

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate your expertise and help. Thank you guys!

As a side note, the car corners awesome, but it did great with that before any of this. Here are all the pictures I took today with a better camera (I had to make them smaller because they were too big file size):


29240
29241292422924329244292452924629247292482924929250 29251292522925329254292552925629257292582925929260 29261292622926329264

The below picture is how the car sat before I did anything to it.

29266

[sillieidiot]

you can, like any conventional control arm bushing (and our rear control arm bushings - the rubber ones - are conventional). leave the bolts loose, compress the suspension to normal ride height, then tighten the bolts to spec.

Those bushings only travel in the vertical axis anyways. I don't see the point in that at all. The only reason I would see to preload that one is for torsional load. But it sits in a slot that doesn't allow for much twisting motion.


the NVH will be a little higher but those mounts won't make it feel like the suspension has no travel - they are not in the suspension.

i agree about the valving, i think that is the X factor at this point. that and rear shock length (remember he said it was adjustable), spring preload on the front coilovers and preload on the swaybar endlinks. lots of tweaking to do. OK..... many X factors. ;)

Yeah, well he does say that it's stiffer overall. That's why I pointed out the mounts. Most of it will definitely be the suspension though.

[sillieidiot]

Your post is way too long lol I'm too lazy to read right now so I'll answer what I can remember LOL

Why did you get charged $575? Was it because of all the adjustments that you did? That's why I told you to DIY those lol Save money, and you could still drive around while figuring out everything before the alignment.

For the rebound adjustment. Like I told you, it doesn't do anything to make it feel softer. All it's going to adjust is how bouncy your car feels. I believe in that other thread you linked, Mfactory says that they don't touch the damping at all. So it should feel pretty much the same compression throughout the whole range when you adjust it. In which you already noticed as you played around with it. The reason why it felt a little better as you went harder was because you made it less bouncy.

The front height adjustment. For these types of coilovers, you need to lengthen the shocks using that bottom collar, not the one on bottom of the springs. He must not be used to or seen these types of coilovers before.

For the endlinks, did the guy not use an allen wrench to keep the nut from spinning the shaft? You can't hold the back. Hmm there's no facepalm smiley on this forum apparently. It would go good here. I wouldn't go back to that guy lol

Ok, that's all I remember lol I remember you saying something about adjustment bolt in the rear. Well technically he's right in that you adjust 1 bolt for the camber. But he still needs to adjust toe. Toe is more important than camber for tire wear.

Raising the height overall will help improve the quality because you will be increasing the suspension travel. But you can only go so much.

[Kimber]

Your post is way too long lol I'm too lazy to read right now so I'll answer what I can remember LOL

Why did you get charged $575? Was it because of all the adjustments that you did? That's why I told you to DIY those lol Save money, and you could still drive around while figuring out everything before the alignment.

For the rebound adjustment. Like I told you, it doesn't do anything to make it feel softer. All it's going to adjust is how bouncy your car feels. I believe in that other thread you linked, Mfactory says that they don't touch the damping at all. So it should feel pretty much the same compression throughout the whole range when you adjust it. In which you already noticed as you played around with it. The reason why it felt a little better as you went harder was because you made it less bouncy.

The front height adjustment. For these types of coilovers, you need to lengthen the shocks using that bottom collar, not the one on bottom of the springs. He must not be used to or seen these types of coilovers before.

For the endlinks, did the guy not use an allen wrench to keep the nut from spinning the shaft? You can't hold the back. Hmm there's no facepalm smiley on this forum apparently. It would go good here. I wouldn't go back to that guy lol

Ok, that's all I remember lol I remember you saying something about adjustment bolt in the rear. Well technically he's right in that you adjust 1 bolt for the camber. But he still needs to adjust toe. Toe is more important than camber for tire wear.

Raising the height overall will help improve the quality because you will be increasing the suspension travel. But you can only go so much.

Yeah please read the whole thing when you have time, I appreciate your thoughts.

Yeah I drove it like you said, but I do not have a garage or a lift so my mechanic said this guy is good alignment guy so just let him do the adjustments and then the alignment. He was told it would be like $150-200, and I was good with that (but not 575). But like you said this guy either doesn't know these type or is screwing me over, because it took him 3.5 hours to adjust ride height and it's all messed up and not done correctly.

Slater had some thoughts that he emailed me and the jist was that everything is way too short. The shock probably is compressed in the assembly and can't even do it's job. I happen to still have my old ones here still (rears are both basically blown) , so I went out and measured them and the rear stock springs are like 4" taller than the ones from YCW. And the stock front are like 23" long. I am pretty sure that when we installed them we put them at about 19" with the lower collar. (and today jerk off wouldn't move that one, he said he can do it with the top collar)

So I know YCW said they will design and send a new rear perch with more threads so the collar can go up higher, but I just can't see it working when the factory is 4" taller spring. Or what am I missing?

To be honest there was no instrauctions or guidelines for install, and I don't understand why YCW wouldn't put the shocks at least close to where they should be. This could all have been avoided if you ask me. Just saying.

[MFactory]

They charged you $575 for alignment? Alignment should only take 1hr max, and that's the old fashioned (and best) way with strings and corner weights.

I also have to apologise for the lack of install instructions on the initial test sets; the reason for this is because we needed to wait on feedback from our testers before we can put together the complete instructions for the production sets.

Our dampers are rebound only adjustment (compression does change very slightly, but not significantly) and only affects low speed damping, so changing them only really affects how "bouncy" your car will be as sillieidiot mentioned above and not the actual stiffness (for comparison purposes though, we try to keep the rebound/compression ratio as close to 1:1.1 as possible at max. damper speeds, which comes on very quickly due to the digressive valving)

For the rear adjustment, I have to apologise; I forgot that the E46 fitment uses an inline adjustment knob instead of at the end of the rod (like it is with our E9X fitments). As long as you follow the S-H marking, you are fine.

For the actual shock length (not damper length, as that remains static), these are set the way they are to fit the packaging. When installing, generally you should adjust the mount so that the shock length is the same as (or as close as) the oem shock length. You would then mount the shock/damper while at full droop, pre-load the spring slightly (just so that it doesn't move. You don't need too much pre-load), then do final adjustment from there depending on how much travel and height you require. All of the dampers have bump stops (they are underneath the rod boots). We made the rears adjustable via the mounts to avoid the conflicts associated with adjusting via the spring perch (e.g reduced spring stroke). The reason for offering the longer thread on the rear is so that you can actually lengthen the shock length more to adjust the ride height that way vs the conventional spring perch method, and thus compensate for the increased length and not have the spring mounted loose.

Obviously, this is just the general way to setup the dampers, but are fully adjustable depending on your requirements.

As for the spring lengths, these are shorter than stock, yes, but because they are also stiffer, they won't compress as much as the oem springs under weight. If we made them the same length as the oem springs, you would be riding higher than oem.

If you give me the permission, I can give your contact details to our other E46 tester (albeit his is an M3) who has successfully installed and using the coilovers. Stiffer, yes (as expected), but definitely not uncomfortable.

[Kimber]

For the endlinks, did the guy not use an allen wrench to keep the nut from spinning the shaft? You can't hold the back. Hmm there's no facepalm smiley on this forum apparently. It would go good here. I wouldn't go back to that guy lol

Ok, that's all I remember lol I remember you saying something about adjustment bolt in the rear. Well technically he's right in that you adjust 1 bolt for the camber. But he still needs to adjust toe. Toe is more important than camber for tire wear.

Raising the height overall will help improve the quality because you will be increasing the suspension travel. But you can only go so much.

I forgot to write in, yes he tried the allen first, and then even the lock pliers just because he couldn't understand why the nut would just spin and not come on or off. It's like the internals are bad and just spin around.

And for the alignment, if shocks are all too short (thus the car is too low) will that help get the toe to where it should be? (allowing our one adjustment bolt in the rear to get it to where it should be)

And are you saying that we don't care much for what the camber is in the rear, we want the toe to be right no matter what? And that toe should be .12 per side if I remember correctly from the screen (but he said that the machine doesn't actually register that small on the screen, just in 5's so it would either be .10 or .15 on the screen, but he tries to get the middle)

And my rear camber is not the same per side according the screen shot above. Does that matter?

How about the front camber, he said for daily driving that having it around -.50 is better overall. But I noticed that most of the guys in the alignment thread have theirs at like -1.00.

Thanks!

[sillieidiot]

Yeah please read the whole thing when you have time, I appreciate your thoughts.

Yeah I drove it like you said, but I do not have a garage or a lift so my mechanic said this guy is good alignment guy so just let him do the adjustments and then the alignment. He was told it would be like $150-200, and I was good with that (but not 575). But like you said this guy either doesn't know these type or is screwing me over, because it took him 3.5 hours to adjust ride height and it's all messed up and not done correctly.

Slater had some thoughts that he emailed me and the jist was that everything is way too short. The shock probably is compressed in the assembly and can't even do it's job. I happen to still have my old ones here still (rears are both basically blown) , so I went out and measured them and the rear stock springs are like 4" taller than the ones from YCW. And the stock front are like 23" long. I am pretty sure that when we installed them we put them at about 19" with the lower collar. (and today jerk off wouldn't move that one, he said he can do it with the top collar)

So I know YCW said they will design and send a new rear perch with more threads so the collar can go up higher, but I just can't see it working when the factory is 4" taller spring. Or what am I missing?

To be honest there was no instrauctions or guidelines for install, and I don't understand why YCW wouldn't put the shocks at least close to where they should be. This could all have been avoided if you ask me. Just saying.

Well I wen't back and read the whole thing. But I guess I didn't really miss anything lol

So do you have tools? Like jacks and stands? That's all you really need to adjust the suspension. And obviously the wrenches that were provided. You should find a way to do that, because you will probably be doing a lot of adjustments before you will find something that you're comfortable with. It's basically trial an error since not everyone drives the same roads and stuff as you.

Yeah don't mind about the springs being shorter and stuff. They are different spring rates so it doesn't matter all that much. Plus the springs you have are also sitting on the mount. You have to include the height of the mount too.


I forgot to write in, yes he tried the allen first, and then even the lock pliers just because he couldn't understand why the nut would just spin and not come on or off. It's like the internals are bad and just spin around.

And for the alignment, if shocks are all too short (thus the car is too low) will that help get the toe to where it should be? (allowing our one adjustment bolt in the rear to get it to where it should be)

And are you saying that we don't care much for what the camber is in the rear, we want the toe to be right no matter what? And that toe should be .12 per side if I remember correctly from the screen (but he said that the machine doesn't actually register that small on the screen, just in 5's so it would either be .10 or .15 on the screen, but he tries to get the middle)

And my rear camber is not the same per side according the screen shot above. Does that matter?

How about the front camber, he said for daily driving that having it around -.50 is better overall. But I noticed that most of the guys in the alignment thread have theirs at like -1.00.

Thanks!

Yeah that doesn't make sense to me lol But ok, let's just say it's bad somehow. I guess he stripped the threads so whatever. You'll need a new endlink regardless.

To adjust toe in the rear, he actually has to loosen like all the bolts near the RTABs and move that. The only one where there is only a single bolt is the camber because it uses an offset bolt. Adjusting the camber will adjust the toe a bit, but you need to do the ones by the RTAB.

Making the car higher will make it easier to get the toe/camber to where it should be.

When I last saw your alignment sheet. He didn't even adjust the rear toe at all.

No it doesn't matter, as long as it's within spec then it's fine.

For the camber, it's really preference tbh. Having more means you have better turning, but less grip on the straights. I would just stick to trying to get as close to stock specs as possible.


BTW, chill lol Woosah woosah :rofl We'll get this fixed, one step at a time.

[sillieidiot]

They charged you $575 for alignment? Alignment should only take 1hr max, and that's the old fashioned (and best) way with strings and corner weights.


I think he was charged the labor for adjusting the height and stuff. Comes out to like $164ish / hour. Which is a lot imo, that's like what a tuning shop would charge.

Do you know what spring rates you gave him?

[MFactory]

Yeah, he mentioned in the email. His alignment guy charged him 3.5hrs to adjust the height, and still wasn't done right :(

I believe they were the same 4K/12K, but I'll need to double verify.

I think the issue though is with the shock length i.e too short, thus reducing overall height and compressing the spring too much, not allowing any travel

[Kimber]

Update!!

After talking with YCW multiple times to make sure I have everything correct the car is going back in on Monday and the shop is going to make everything right for no charge. They are going to fit it in between cars and whatnot, so I told them to keep it all week if need be.

The consensus was that the shocks were just not long enough, so everything was compressed, giving the harsh ride. (probably hitting the bump stops all the time) The shop is going to lengthen everything properly now as YCW explained and hopefully we will be in business then!! :)

YCW has been great with communication and explaining everything to me, as I have no clue on this stuff. (now I do though! LOL) I really appreciate the customer service and thank Michael at YCW immensely!!

So I will keep you guys updated as I get any new info. Thanks for everyone's thoughts and help!

[BMWCurves]

Glad to hear YCW was responsive and the shop is being accommodating! Hopefully it's all smooth sailing from there on

[ELCID86]

Keep us posted Bryan.

[Kimber]

Guys, if I would change to a square setup using my stock rears and finding another set of rears (I might have a local guy), would I need to redo the alignment then?

My rear tires (DWS's) are almost shot, and I have been thinking about going square for a while, just not sure what size tire. I like the wider look, so that's why I was thinking of going rear wheels on all 4 corners with stock rear size tire. (I know a lot of you change wheels, but I love the look of our 135's and will deal with the weight of them :) )

Would it be best to stay with 255/35/18 then if I go to Michelin PPS's? (all summer driving, never driven in winter)

No rubbing or anything with that stock rear size?

What are your thoughts and experience guys?

Costco has a sale going on thru this weekend and I should be able to get the PPS's in the 255/35/18 size for about $825 mounted/balanced and out the door.

The 235/40/18 PPS's would be about $100 less (just for reference) but that $100 isn't a big deal to me as I want the best handling and ride, as well as the wider look. Unless you guys say it's the better size, then great, $100 savings! LOL

What is everyone's thoughts? Thanks!

[Kimber]

Well I got bad news guys, the shop called me tonight and left a VM. They have done all the adjustments that YCW said to do, and he said that he can not see any way that these springs will work. He said they are fully compressed and can not support the weight of the car or something like that. The ride is no better. I have emailed YCW and asked for a phone number for someone there that we can call and see if there is still something the shop is doing wrong, but at this point, I am believing him as he had multiple people in the shop look at it. (all said the same thing, no way that will work)

I'll be patiently waiting for YCW to get back to me and keep you guys updated. I'm sure YCW will make this right, but the car is undriveable again now. (for how long, who knows at this point) Very frustrating. :(

[MFactory]

Replied to your email.

We will get this worked out :)

[sillieidiot]

Guys, if I would change to a square setup using my stock rears and finding another set of rears (I might have a local guy), would I need to redo the alignment then?

My rear tires (DWS's) are almost shot, and I have been thinking about going square for a while, just not sure what size tire. I like the wider look, so that's why I was thinking of going rear wheels on all 4 corners with stock rear size tire. (I know a lot of you change wheels, but I love the look of our 135's and will deal with the weight of them :) )

Would it be best to stay with 255/35/18 then if I go to Michelin PPS's? (all summer driving, never driven in winter)

No rubbing or anything with that stock rear size?

What are your thoughts and experience guys?

Costco has a sale going on thru this weekend and I should be able to get the PPS's in the 255/35/18 size for about $825 mounted/balanced and out the door.

The 235/40/18 PPS's would be about $100 less (just for reference) but that $100 isn't a big deal to me as I want the best handling and ride, as well as the wider look. Unless you guys say it's the better size, then great, $100 savings! LOL

What is everyone's thoughts? Thanks!

You probably have this all figured out. But usually you should have an alignment. If I knew that you had bad tires to begin with, I would have recommended against the alignment until you got new tires. You probably won't notice the difference driving though.

Michelin PPS? Never heard of them. If you meant PSS then yeah stay with them. They are great for summer/wet driving.

Not sure about the rubbing, I don't remember. Mine used to rub but I also have really aggressive wheels so it doesn't really help you.


Well I got bad news guys, the shop called me tonight and left a VM. They have done all the adjustments that YCW said to do, and he said that he can not see any way that these springs will work. He said they are fully compressed and can not support the weight of the car or something like that. The ride is no better. I have emailed YCW and asked for a phone number for someone there that we can call and see if there is still something the shop is doing wrong, but at this point, I am believing him as he had multiple people in the shop look at it. (all said the same thing, no way that will work)

I'll be patiently waiting for YCW to get back to me and keep you guys updated. I'm sure YCW will make this right, but the car is undriveable again now. (for how long, who knows at this point) Very frustrating. :(

Yeah that is weird. The spring rates on those coils are roughly double the stock rates I think. So it should work. But they are pretty low spring rates though, I don't think I know of anyone who runs a 4k spring up front. Usually it's like 6k at least.

Well at least you are getting support from YCW, so I'm sure it'll get fixed.

[Kimber]

You probably have this all figured out. But usually you should have an alignment. If I knew that you had bad tires to begin with, I would have recommended against the alignment until you got new tires. You probably won't notice the difference driving though.

Michelin PPS? Never heard of them. If you meant PSS then yeah stay with them. They are great for summer/wet driving.

Not sure about the rubbing, I don't remember. Mine used to rub but I also have really aggressive wheels so it doesn't really help you.

Yeah that's what I meant and kept typing the PPS. LOL give me a break I was stressing. LOL I ended up waiting on it, because I first want to get the suspension all figured out. And although my DWS's are getting low in the rear (lot's left on the fronts), they are not shot. I should get another 5k at least out of them and that will get me thru the summer. So that gives me a while to get them. And I talked to Slater and he said since I don't track the car (and never plan to) I should probably stay with the staggered set up.

Yeah that is weird. The spring rates on those coils are roughly double the stock rates I think. So it should work. But they are pretty low spring rates though, I don't think I know of anyone who runs a 4k spring up front. Usually it's like 6k at least.

Well at least you are getting support from YCW, so I'm sure it'll get fixed.

I am in PA and we are getting slammed with a blizzard (where I am we could get 30" over 18 hours), so this will have to wait for a day or two, but yes, YCW is going to make sure everything is perfect. They have told me to send some measurements and some extra pictures so we can get to the bottom of what needs to be done. Although it sucks the car is at the stage it's at right now, I am confident in YCW's customer service and that they stand behind their product. It will get fixed, that's all I want. :)

[ELCID86]

Glad they are sticking with you... lots of is watching...

[Kimber]

So I haven't got an alignment done yet, but am loving the new tires. The rear rubbing is worrying me though. The YCW coilovers have been redone and are on their way back to the USA. So in a couple weeks i can get those back on and get the full alignment. I'm not planning on going super low on the ride hieght, i want a nice ride quality.

Do you guys think the 12mm spacers in the rear will work out once i get the alignment and the coilover installed? (my rear shocks are completely shot right now)

I'm wondering how some people install 12mm and have no problems, and I am rubbing. Could it be the brand new Michelin's as they have so much tread being new?

[Asiah119]

I didn't read every post in the thread but here is my set up and my 2 cents.

Aluminum rtab from Turner
Custom made delrin diff bushings and subframe bushings
Turner camber arm.
Monoball for everything else that moves.
Subframe reinforcement kit.

Front is delrin lca bushings and lemforder lca
Monoball camber plates.

Is there more noise, yes. Is it really noticeable, no.
I absolutely would so delrin/solid over rubber if given the chance again. The car is a little more twitchy on the highway than before but tweaking the alignment is going to help that. When I was getting the car corner balanced every minor adjustment immediately showed on the scales. The improvement in weight transfer from going solid is spectacular.

On alignment. The stock alignment looks like it's planning for some deflection under load. With delrin and solid bushings that's not going to happen so you have to set it up differently. I'm still figuring out what's going to work best, but 0 toe on the front isn't going to be it. I don't have my alignment numbers in front of me but I want to say front camber is - 2 and rear is - 1.5. Aggressive setup for stock seems to be -3 front - 2.5 rear. I have spent that last two days throwing my car at very tight turns on mountain roads and I'm not having trouble traction.

[Kimber]

I've got the YCW set back with the new swift springs now. Right now it is too low up front and too high in the rear. Very bouncy the way it sits, but we ran out of time on the lift to adjust it any more. Finalizing install and height adjustment this Tuesday and alignment after that. But here is a pic of how she is now.

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[sillieidiot]

So everything is fixed (other than little adjustments)? Lol every time I load this on my phone. It's like we've been writing novels to each other lol

[slater]

I've got the YCW set back with the new swift springs now. Right now it is too low up front and too high in the rear. Very bouncy the way it sits, but we ran out of time on the lift to adjust it any more. Finalizing install and height adjustment this Tuesday and alignment after that. But here is a pic of how she is now.

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good to hear, man. why not jack the front up and adjust right in the driveway? you don't need the lift for it. :cheers

sweet T4R in the background!

[Kimber]

good to hear, man. why not jack the front up and adjust right in the driveway? you don't need the lift for it. :cheers

sweet T4R in the background!

Because I have to put the reinforcement plates in the front anyway (forgot them at home last time) and also I don't have the tools to really do anything at my house. :)

[Kimber]

So everything is fixed (other than little adjustments)? Lol every time I load this on my phone. It's like we've been writing novels to each other lol

Well we will see when I get it adjusted and all. It's very bouncy right now, but I am hoping its just because its not adjusted level, etc. YCW didn't do anything to the fronts except put the new Swift springs on them. The rears are longer threads for the dampers, and longer threads on the spring perch, and new Swift springs. I'll have some pictures when I get some time. YCW wants to see pictures of it on the ground and level and see how much the springs are compressing. I'll do this when I get it aligned so I can get under it and actually see the springs. The last set of springs were fully compressed by the car, so hopefully these are the right ones this time. :)

[slater]

Because I have to put the reinforcement plates in the front anyway (forgot them at home last time) and also I don't have the tools to really do anything at my house. :)

that's a bummer about the reinforcement plates, but all you need is a jack and the supplied adjustment wrenches from YCW.



Well we will see when I get it adjusted and all. It's very bouncy right now, but I am hoping its just because its not adjusted level, etc. YCW didn't do anything to the fronts except put the new Swift springs on them. The rears are longer threads for the dampers, and longer threads on the spring perch, and new Swift springs. I'll have some pictures when I get some time. YCW wants to see pictures of it on the ground and level and see how much the springs are compressing. I'll do this when I get it aligned so I can get under it and actually see the springs. The last set of springs were fully compressed by the car, so hopefully these are the right ones this time. :)

all of this is a huge bummer. because really, you're doing real-world testing for them. and i know you kinda signed up for that, but you'd think they would have figured out what spring rates and lengths to use that would NOT coil-bind. crazy.

best case scenario, the bounciness could be because you have the dampers fully soft, or you've got the front ride height adjusted wrong - i.e., you've lowered the car with the perches right under the spring (and not shortened the shock body itself), thus negating a lot of your front suspension travel (if you have any left at that height).

worst case, the damping totally does not match the spring rates. and that's not going to get any better. but again, see the comment above about them figuring out the correct spring rates and lengths....

sorry man. you're being a real trooper here. i hope it has a happy ending! :cheers

[Kimber]

that's a bummer about the reinforcement plates, but all you need is a jack and the supplied adjustment wrenches from YCW.




all of this is a huge bummer. because really, you're doing real-world testing for them. and i know you kinda signed up for that, but you'd think they would have figured out what spring rates and lengths to use that would NOT coil-bind. crazy.

best case scenario, the bounciness could be because you have the dampers fully soft, or you've got the front ride height adjusted wrong - i.e., you've lowered the car with the perches right under the spring (and not shortened the shock body itself), thus negating a lot of your front suspension travel (if you have any left at that height).

worst case, the damping totally does not match the spring rates. and that's not going to get any better. but again, see the comment above about them figuring out the correct spring rates and lengths....

sorry man. you're being a real trooper here. i hope it has a happy ending! :cheers

Thanks Slater, yes it has been a LONG road since last June, but I do have to say YCW has been responsive to my emails and have been working with me to try to get this set working properly. I am the first "street" car is what I am being told. And yes I know to adjust the perches with the spanner wrench, its just that I really don't have the area or tools to do it easily, and since there is quite a lot of adjustment needed (plus the reinforcement plates) it will be much easier to do on Tuesday on the lift with wheels off.

I think some of the issue is that I didn't think I would be doing THIS MUCH fitment testing, I was thinking it would be more of a throw them on and tell us how the ride is kind of deal. So yes this has been trying to say the least, since I needed new shocks since last summer. But we are working thru it and hopefully it will benefit all that come behind me with a great product that is bolt on ready.

Not to mention I am no suspension expert, so YCW has had to really spell things out for me. The shops around here wanted extremely high labor rates to install something they do not know about, and most of them wouldn't even do the install because I didn't buy them there nor have they ever heard of YCW. I can now understand why, as these have been on and off the car multiple times with swapping parts, etc.

My mechanic has a lot of experience, but he also is not a suspension expert. When he installs something it is already to go, and doesn't have near the adjustments these do. Plus after the first time with these and saying that something wasn't right (springs/etc.) and going back and forth with YCW, he will only do exactly as they say at this point.

So this last time I had email instructions from YCW and I took some of them literally and was confused on height adjustment, plus we ran out of time. When we mounted them I read an earlier email to leave 50mm screwed into the front bottom base. In the last email YCW said it was actually 40mm, so there is about 10mm I can gain in height on the front but that is as long as the damper can be. Also, I only screwed the spring perch up until the spring was not moving around, my mistake as I read the email literally and didn't use common sense to raise that perch to raise the front height.

The rear damper has to be screwed in some more to lower the rear, we just ran out of time, but we have a feeling the rear spring is not the correct size anyway. YCW said that the spring should fit in without any real compression (when on the lift) when the damper is fairly close to the correct ride height. As it sits now the spring is being compressed quite a bit (on the lift) and the spring perch collar is as low as it can go to the control arm. (and we have to lower the height yet even more, so it will get even more compressed) YCW said he might have to send a shorter spring then, but we want to see what is going to happen when we screw in the damper some more to shorten it, thus lowering the car, and is it going to coil bind like the first springs they sent. It is really hard to see the spring with the car on the ground and thru the factory wheels. So my plan is to get the alignment done after we get the height corrected, and while on the rack I should be able to get some good pictures with the weight of the car on the suspension/etc. At least that is the plan unless anyone has a better idea. :)

I just wanted a setup that would ride fantastic and still handle as good or better than stock. I didn't realize the long road I was in for, but I am still optimistic this will all work out and I will end up with a great set of coilovers (and have helped future people).

As always i appreciate all of you guys chiming in with anything else I might be missing.

The sad thing is that with all the things I have refreshed/upgraded on the suspension, when I had the stock shocks back on, the car handled amazing, even with both rear shocks blown. I almost wish I just would have went with something everyone else was using for coilovers last year and I'd be driving around happy as a clam for the past year. :)

[slater]

I just wanted a setup that would ride fantastic and still handle as good or better than stock. I didn't realize the long road I was in for, but I am still optimistic this will all work out and I will end up with a great set of coilovers (and have helped future people).

i certainly hope so, for your sake! i am curious to see what happens. i wish i was closer so i could help you with the tuning.



The sad thing is that with all the things I have refreshed/upgraded on the suspension, when I had the stock shocks back on, the car handled amazing, even with both rear shocks blown. I almost wish I just would have went with something everyone else was using for coilovers last year and I'd be driving around happy as a clam for the past year. :)

the grass is always greener, man... :)

you could always sell the setup, or ask YCW for a refund (certainly based on your issues they may be sympathetic), and go for a tried-and-true spring/shock setup, like koni yellows and eibach pro-kits, or the bilstein B12 kit. certainly less hassle in the long run and much less 'fiddly.'

:cheers

[Kimber]

Made the height changes this AM and unfortunately I am pretty positive the new Swift rear springs are too tall. The spring perch collars are spun all the way down to the control arms at this point. The attached pictures are with the car on the alignment rack, so the cars weight is on the springs. They are pretty close together, and the rear end still needs to drop by about a half inch. But I didn't want to go any lower and cause spring bind ( I need to drive this car). Our other concern was that if we keep screwing in the damper's lower mount to make it shorter (thus lowering the car), what travel are we going to have on the damper itself. The car is pretty bouncy right now as it sits. So I have to email YCW with all of this and see what he has to say and what to do next.

I've attached the alignment printout, and the right rear lower control arm is maxed at this point. The 3 bolts are hitting the far end of their slots. The tech said nothing more he could do. He said an easy fix would be to try to drill the slots a little longer so that he can get the adjustment more. Then everything should fall right in line he said. So I got to talk to my mechanic and see what his thoughts are on helping me do that. (this was the control arm that snapped when we were pressing in the M3 ball joints and we had to get another one from the junk yard)

This alignment shop seems pretty knowledgeable and I bought a 3 year unlimited alignment package as I am tired of paying for alignments all the time after all of these changes and whatnot. :)

The camber plates/adjustments are pretty much maxed out as well, so not sure if that is a problem. I'll get pictures of them later and add that to this post for you guys to see. As well as some pictures of how the car sits height wise now. I think the front is pretty good, the rear just needs to come down a half inch to level it out. Rear is still raked a bit.

Love the input guys, so give me all your thoughts please. :)

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[Kimber]

This is with the car on the lift and you can see the spring perch collars spun all the way down to the control arm. Also the length of the rear damper (this was where we left it at)

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[Kimber]

this is the rear spring with car's full weight
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And this is the front with car's full weight

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[slater]

3068130682

OK... this isn't right. see how the spring is both flexing sideways at the top, and not seated correctly in the upper perch? and it looks waaaay too big for that upper perch........you need to use a barrel- or 'beehive'-type spring in the rear, OR use articulating spring perches (like GC's 'weight jacks') and tapered upper perches if you're going to use normal springs.

i went back and found the pics you sent me of the original kit... these original springs are the correct shape:

[Kimber]

Yup, back to the drawing board I guess Slater. I sort of wondered if these new Swift springs were going to be OK at the top becasue they looked nothing like the stock ones, but as I said I am no suspension expert, just installing what is sent to me. :(

The black ones in your photo are indeed the ones that fit better in the top area the first time around from YCW, but those are the ones that were fully compressed when they were installed on the car, thus the swap for the Swift springs.

I'm so frustrated with this all. Thanks for all your input buddy! I wished I lived down the street from you instead of in Pennsylvania! LOL

[Kimber]

Here is how she sits now

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[Kimber]

And here is the top of the front, notice how the adjustments are pretty much maxed out. (on the passenger side he actually had to loosen the 3 shock bolts and made sure it was slid as far back in the fender slots as it could go) Is that OK?

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[slater]

And here is the top of the front, notice how the adjustments are pretty much maxed out. (on the passenger side he actually had to loosen the 3 shock bolts and made sure it was slid as far back in the fender slots as it could go) Is that OK?

3068930690

wow, i'm surprised - you got -1.0 degree of camber in the front with that? i would have thought you'd get less camber at those settings. if you raised the front up you'd gain some more, but still... something doesn't seem right.

and of course, the rear height issue is due to the wrong springs.

bummer, man.

[sillieidiot]

This is with the car on the lift and you can see the spring perch collars spun all the way down to the control arm. Also the length of the rear damper (this was where we left it at)

[ATTACH]30679[/ATTACH[ATTACH]30680[/ATTACH[ATTACH]30681[/ATTACH[ATTACH]30682[/ATTACH

You can use the swift springs fine. But they should have like a cup or adapter so that it fits in the top. It does look like it is a bit too tall. That could also be because you don't have that adapter and are using the rubber pads that are thicker. Do you know the length of the swift springs? For my rear, I ran 5.5" for Hyperco and 5" for Swift springs. The fronts are 6".


And here is the top of the front, notice how the adjustments are pretty much maxed out. (on the passenger side he actually had to loosen the 3 shock bolts and made sure it was slid as far back in the fender slots as it could go) Is that OK?

[ATTACH]30689[/ATTACH[ATTACH]30690[/ATTACH

Yes that is fine if you are going for as little negative camber as possible. You have the reinforcement plates on right? I thought I saw it, but it wasn't on the other side so iono.

[Kimber]

You can use the swift springs fine. But they should have like a cup or adapter so that it fits in the top. It does look like it is a bit too tall. That could also be because you don't have that adapter and are using the rubber pads that are thicker. Do you know the length of the swift springs? For my rear, I ran 5.5" for Hyperco and 5" for Swift springs. The fronts are 6".



Yes that is fine if you are going for as little negative camber as possible. You have the reinforcement plates on right? I thought I saw it, but it wasn't on the other side so iono.

The rear stock springs are about 9"-10" and the first set of springs YCW sent were about 5.5-6" (but these are the ones that were completely compressed under weight of car) and the Swift springs are about 7" and say 120 on them(I didn't take exact measurement but I attached photo of swift next to the first set YCW sent).

The first set from YCW were similar in style to the stock and fit the rubber pad at the top nicely. The Swift top are the same as bottom and way bigger and the rubber pad just sits on top. Nothing else was sent with the Swift springs.

I do have the reinforcement plates installed on top of the dampers on the fronts and also have the ECS (custom for vert) installed for the rears. (these are C shaped and go on the studs before you put the nuts on the top) The alignment tech told me he has the fronts completely maxed for adjustment on the passenger side and that is how the alignment sheet shows them. I can go no more than that on passenger side and just a bit more on the driver side.

The picture with the Swift rear springs also shows the perches that they sent with longer thread this time for more adjustment. (the old ones were shorter threads) These collars are completely spun down to basically the lower control arm so we could get the Swift spring in without being compressed too much.

Whats your thoughts?

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[sillieidiot]

Yeah it doesn't matter about the stock springs. The YCW springs are at a good height. They fully compressed because they were too soft for the car. I don't think they took into account that your car is a vert, so it's even heavier in the rear then the normal coupe.

Yeah it sounds like the rear springs are too long. It should be the same size as the YCW springs were originally. I do have a question for you that I didn't see when I scrolled back up. Did they give you new swift springs all around? Front and rear? Or just the rear? Is there anyway, you could have mixed up the front/rears?

The 120 on the Swifts means that they are 12k springs. Which is like 672lbs/in. A lot higher than what they spec'd originally. Based on that alone, it does sound like they could be the correct rear springs. They should have came with adapters for the tops. Ask them for it when you get the new springs. Also, now that you're running a way higher spring rate than before, you need to ask them about re-valving the dampers to match it. I highly doubt that it's valved correctly.

Honestly, since you have to take everything off to send them to get re-valved. I would just get a refund and go with something else. Something tried and true. Let someone else test it. At least someone more local to them.

[Kimber]

Yeah it doesn't matter about the stock springs. The YCW springs are at a good height. They fully compressed because they were too soft for the car. I don't think they took into account that your car is a vert, so it's even heavier in the rear then the normal coupe.

Yeah it sounds like the rear springs are too long. It should be the same size as the YCW springs were originally. I do have a question for you that I didn't see when I scrolled back up. Did they give you new swift springs all around? Front and rear? Or just the rear? Is there anyway, you could have mixed up the front/rears?

The 120 on the Swifts means that they are 12k springs. Which is like 672lbs/in. A lot higher than what they spec'd originally. Based on that alone, it does sound like they could be the correct rear springs. They should have came with adapters for the tops. Ask them for it when you get the new springs. Also, now that you're running a way higher spring rate than before, you need to ask them about re-valving the dampers to match it. I highly doubt that it's valved correctly.

Honestly, since you have to take everything off to send them to get re-valved. I would just get a refund and go with something else. Something tried and true. Let someone else test it. At least someone more local to them.

Thanks for the input, let me answer your questions:

You would think they would have this worked out for the correct springs which is why it's frustrating. They did send all new swift springs because the original fronts coil bind as well under weight. I sent them everything back and they installed the springs and made sure everything was good to go (no damage from the first springs). I just installed it the way they sent it.

No adapters for the tops came with the swift's, that's why we were like "these are different, guess they just sit in there and hope for the best". LOL

I have no idea about the re-valving, but I can ask them.

And your right, I am almost to the point of sending it back and just moving on. I don't want to do that unless I have to, because I said I would review these for them, etc, but this is just getting a bit out of what I thought I would have to do. They don't seem to understand that it takes labor money every time they change something, not to mention it comes from Taiwan or wherever and takes a long time to get back and forth.

I am just a lowly street car (no racing here) that wants a stock ride quality with the best performance I can get, and I made them aware of that from the very beginning.

[sillieidiot]

Ok I went back to look at the YCW thread. To see what they spec'd for the spring rates and they did 4k/12k so that they could keep the 2.5:1 ratio. I guess you don't need re-valving. I thought that they went with a different rate initially. So basically you just need shorter rear springs + the adapters for the top. In their thread, they actually show the top adapters on the springs, but for like a e92 or something. Basically you need that for an E46 and you should be good. Probably go with a 5" spring because Swift doesn't make them in .5" lengths. I don't know if 6" would work. On my car, a 6" spring would allow for no adjustment on my AST collars so I had to go with the 5".




Putting this back here so that we can reference it easier lol:
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?19378-YCW-Reference-Series-Coilovers-Official-Pre-Order-List&highlight=mfactory

[Kimber]

Ok I went back to look at the YCW thread. To see what they spec'd for the spring rates and they did 4k/12k so that they could keep the 2.5:1 ratio. I guess you don't need re-valving. I thought that they went with a different rate initially. So basically you just need shorter rear springs + the adapters for the top. In their thread, they actually show the top adapters on the springs, but for like a e92 or something. Basically you need that for an E46 and you should be good. Probably go with a 5" spring because Swift doesn't make them in .5" lengths. I don't know if 6" would work. On my car, a 6" spring would allow for no adjustment on my AST collars so I had to go with the 5".




Putting this back here so that we can reference it easier lol:
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?19378-YCW-Reference-Series-Coilovers-Official-Pre-Order-List&highlight=mfactory


Thanks for checking that info, I don't know anything about spring rates and valving, so I really appreciate the input.

YCW did email me back and they said a couple things:

For the maxed out camber in the front, they said we should be able to get -4deg, and said the installer should have tried to swap the top plates from left/right. So what they put them on wrong before they shipped them and I am supposed to know that?? Frustrates me.

They said shortening the rear damper (via the lower mount) more is not going to affect the stroke as that is independent of that adjustment. So I guess my thought of having reduced travel was wrong. (again I am no suspension expert)

As per them using Swift linear springs in the rear (compared to most companies using barrel/progressive springs) they said they are one of the few companies that do this and its because it offers far increased performance over regular springs. To quote "Also, as your setup is now fully linear springs, these will not be as comfy as a stock setup that uses barrel/progressive springs; that's impossible. A linear spring will produce it's rated load throughout 100% of the spring stroke, whereas a barrel/progressive spring is softer initially, then gets harder as the spring compresses. Either you want performance, or you want comfort"


My main concerns are:

Front dampers need to be uninstalled (AGAIN) and the top plates need to be swapped right/left to allow for proper adjustability.

Since they are saying they can send me shorter Swift springs for the rear (I have to email them about the spring top piece), that will hopefully allow me to go lower without coil bind so I can level the car out to roughly stock height. But it seems they are saying that these are never going to ride as comfortably as stock. Quote "Our coilovers will perform better in a performance situation than both the oem and most coilovers on the market , and are basically tamed-down track coilovers for a street car. You would be paying $3k+ for a similar setup from Penske or Bilstein, not $1k. If you are wanting "stock" quality/comfort, then unfortunately, these coilovers are not for you". When I first ordered these I specifically asked that these would be comfortable, as I DO NOT track this car, nor will I ever. (spirited driving yes) I just wanted the best ride I could get along with as good or better performance/handling over stock setup.

I really want to make these work, as they do look to be really great quality, and YCW has been trying to make it right, but in the end am I going to end up with a harsh ride that I never wanted. It's not like I am lowering the car and should expect a harsher ride. I'm just looking to be around stock height levels. (I'm in PA and our roads SUCK LOL)


I really appreciate all the input, look forward to hearing back everyone's thoughts on the above. Thanks guys!

[sillieidiot]

Thanks for checking that info, I don't know anything about spring rates and valving, so I really appreciate the input.

YCW did email me back and they said a couple things:

For the maxed out camber in the front, they said we should be able to get -4deg, and said the installer should have tried to swap the top plates from left/right. So what they put them on wrong before they shipped them and I am supposed to know that?? Frustrates me.

Were you trying to go max negative camber? I thought that you were trying to get as little as possible. Because that's what it looks like you guys were doing. Since in the pictures, the adjustments were going away from the engine. If you wanted more negative, you would go towards the engine.

They said shortening the rear damper (via the lower mount) more is not going to affect the stroke as that is independent of that adjustment. So I guess my thought of having reduced travel was wrong. (again I am no suspension expert)

As per them using Swift linear springs in the rear (compared to most companies using barrel/progressive springs) they said they are one of the few companies that do this and its because it offers far increased performance over regular springs. To quote "Also, as your setup is now fully linear springs, these will not be as comfy as a stock setup that uses barrel/progressive springs; that's impossible. A linear spring will produce it's rated load throughout 100% of the spring stroke, whereas a barrel/progressive spring is softer initially, then gets harder as the spring compresses. Either you want performance, or you want comfort"

Um no. Plenty of companies use linear springs for their coilovers. In fact, nearly all of them. If they kept their barrel/progressive springs, then they would have joined one of the few to do that. Not the other way around.

But yes, they would be a little bit harder than the setup before which is correct. However, if they were matched up correctly with dampers that were designed well, it would also be comfy. The biggest advantage of linear springs is that it's way more predictable when you're throwing it around the curves since it's the same rate all the time.

My main concerns are:

Front dampers need to be uninstalled (AGAIN) and the top plates need to be swapped right/left to allow for proper adjustability.

see above. What were you trying to do? more negative or less?

Since they are saying they can send me shorter Swift springs for the rear (I have to email them about the spring top piece), that will hopefully allow me to go lower without coil bind so I can level the car out to roughly stock height. But it seems they are saying that these are never going to ride as comfortably as stock. Quote "Our coilovers will perform better in a performance situation than both the oem and most coilovers on the market , and are basically tamed-down track coilovers for a street car. You would be paying $3k+ for a similar setup from Penske or Bilstein, not $1k. If you are wanting "stock" quality/comfort, then unfortunately, these coilovers are not for you". When I first ordered these I specifically asked that these would be comfortable, as I DO NOT track this car, nor will I ever. (spirited driving yes) I just wanted the best ride I could get along with as good or better performance/handling over stock setup.

I really want to make these work, as they do look to be really great quality, and YCW has been trying to make it right, but in the end am I going to end up with a harsh ride that I never wanted. It's not like I am lowering the car and should expect a harsher ride. I'm just looking to be around stock height levels. (I'm in PA and our roads SUCK LOL)


I really appreciate all the input, look forward to hearing back everyone's thoughts on the above. Thanks guys!

Honestly, I feel like they are at the point where they don't even want to work with you anymore lol It seems like they are trying to convince to you that's how it is now instead of try to fix the shortcomings. I'm still in the camp of just getting a refund and going with something else. I'm pretty sure you would be fine with the normal setup that everyone recommend on here. Let someone else figure out test their coils.

[Kimber]

Honestly, I feel like they are at the point where they don't even want to work with you anymore lol It seems like they are trying to convince to you that's how it is now instead of try to fix the shortcomings. I'm still in the camp of just getting a refund and going with something else. I'm pretty sure you would be fine with the normal setup that everyone recommend on here. Let someone else figure out test their coils.

I hope that's not the case, but we will see what their reply email is hopefully today. I've put too much time and money into this to give up now, when hopefully we are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. :) And like I said I'm not that type of person to go back on what I said I would do, it's just getting frustrating.

Thanks for your replies and here are the answers to your questions:

I think what the alignment tech meant was that they were maxed (passenger side for sure) and he was already at almost -1deg as you can see in the alignment printout (which is pretty much stock setting). I was going for basically stock numbers to start with, and if someone on here said to adjust something then I can take it back and do that. (I bought a package so I can adjust multiple times if need be) I just thought it weird that it was -1deg and could only get more neg from there as you are saying. I mean I guess some people like that look of riding on 1" of the inside of the tire, but that's not me. LOL

I'm glad you said that about the ride as well. They keep trying to make it sound like no matter what, the ride is going to be no where near factory quality. Which is not what they said when I ordered them a year ago. I specifically wanted a nice ride quality, and whatever performance gains I could get by going to a high quality coilover setup. I am fine with a little stiffer ride to gain performance, but the way it is now is just horrible and no where near factory quality.

Thanks!

[sillieidiot]

Oh yeah. Then it's fine. At the height that you are at, it's normal to only get -1 deg as the minimum camber. My minimum camber is a lot higher than yours. But I wouldn't go with stock settings though. Just something close to it. You can check the alignment thread for settings that other people have tried. I run a specific setting for my car. And since you have the unlimited alignment thing, after you get your suspension sorted out. you should try to find the alignment settings that you would like.