Engine sucked in water but not hydrolocked - still worth fixing?

[bloodspatteranalyst]

Hey all,

I haven't posted in a while, my interest in working on my ZHP has tapered off this last year due to starting a new job that is very demanding.

We had a pretty bad storm in the Bay Area this past weekend and I drove it through a foot-deep puddle at ~35mph. My car barely made it through the puddle, and stalled itself. Smoke out the tailpipe, car was in "limp" mode, and a CEL. Tried to drive it back home but the engine would stall every time I tried to go up an incline. Car still starts but stalls itself after a few seconds.

Took a look at the airbox myself - damp filter, water droplets in the airbox, MAF sensors, and upper intake boot. Didn't check the rest of the car, towed it to my mechanic.

My mechanic said there was water in the spark plug wells, water presence on the oil dipstick (chocolate milk-colored oil), and he said when he changed the oil, water dripped out of the oil pan for the first few seconds before oil started coming out. He ran a compression test on all 6 cylinders, readings came out something like 120, 110, 110, 100, 120, 110. Keep note though, the compression test was done on a cold engine (hadn't been started in 2 days), because we couldn't get the engine running for more than a few seconds before it shut itself off. Mechanic said my car is not hydrolocked - otherwise, the engine wouldn't have started at all.

They suggest removing the entire intake manifold and clear it of water and carbon build up ($700 job). There are no guarantees that it will work, but what do you guys think? Is every indicator pointing towards a dead engine? Or do you think cleaning out the intake manifold of carbon build up and moisture will bring this back to life?

Thanks for your input at this very desperate time.

[KevinC]

Key question - how many miles on the motor? If it's sub-100k, I t think it's worth a shot. If it's 150k+, I think I'd try to find a lower mileage known working motor from a boneyard. Anywhere in between, tougher call.

[bloodspatteranalyst]

Key question - how many miles on the motor? If it's sub-100k, I t think it's worth a shot. If it's 150k+, I think I'd try to find a lower mileage known working motor from a boneyard. Anywhere in between, tougher call.

Haha, you're gonna like this one - 205,000 miles on this motor.

That said, it was performing GREAT up until this incident. Key items had been serviced - VANOS, oil filter housing gasket.

[az3579]

Dario just bought a ZSP with the same issue - a water damaged motor. Runs, but has bottom end damage.

I don't think it's worth fixing, IMO, assuming there is damage. Find out what the damage actually is before making a call.

[wstr75]

Some links to ponder:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/decarbonizing-an-engine-with-water-myth-or-fact.793344/

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=339470

Both threads have some references to concerns about blocking the catalytic converters. Years ago I had a catalytic converter go bad on a V-6 Pontiac. It struggled to run at idle and would shut off when trying to rev the engine. According to the links above there is a lot of good that can happen with controlled water addition regarding decarbonizing rings, combustion chambers, etc., but some say be careful as the mass outpouring of carbon waste is tough on the downstream cats.

[bloodspatteranalyst]

Some links to ponder:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/decarbonizing-an-engine-with-water-myth-or-fact.793344/

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=339470

Both threads have some references to concerns about blocking the catalytic converters. Years ago I had a catalytic converter go bad on a V-6 Pontiac. It struggled to run at idle and would shut off when trying to rev the engine. According to the links above there is a lot of good that can happen with controlled water addition regarding decarbonizing rings, combustion chambers, etc., but some say be careful as the mass outpouring of carbon waste is tough on the downstream cats.

Interesting info, but not sure I'm getting the point. Are those links suggesting that the (controlled) water intake was good for the car?

[bloodspatteranalyst]

Dario just bought a ZSP with the same issue - a water damaged motor. Runs, but has bottom end damage.

I don't think it's worth fixing, IMO, assuming there is damage. Find out what the damage actually is before making a call.

That last part is the hard part - finding out what the damage actually is without incurring too many labor hours tearing the whole thing apart. Surely there has to be some indicator already that the engine is toast?

[wstr75]

The links were to give information to possible scenarios that happened to your engine and downstream components. Yes, the links were written by folks contemplating cleaning out their engine with water and the respondents gave the pros and cons to what could happen. Since your engine sucked in an undetermined amount of water, any of those scenarios may apply. I feel your pain.

Here are some other links from folks experiencing sucked in water in their E46s.
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2211411-BMW-E46-Huge-amounts-of-blue-smoke-after-deep-water
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113222
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1042358
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1006979
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1552532-Waterdamage-Hydrolocked-Engine-Will-it-Survive

[ZacharyMikel]

The hard part is that a new motor installed is going to be WAAAY more than $700. I just checked eBay... non-ZHP M54b30 motors are like $1200-1500. Not to mention paying someone to install it, figuring out the DME stuff (idk how any of that works), etc.

[az3579]

Some links to ponder:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/decarbonizing-an-engine-with-water-myth-or-fact.793344/

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=339470

Both threads have some references to concerns about blocking the catalytic converters. Years ago I had a catalytic converter go bad on a V-6 Pontiac. It struggled to run at idle and would shut off when trying to rev the engine. According to the links above there is a lot of good that can happen with controlled water addition regarding decarbonizing rings, combustion chambers, etc., but some say be careful as the mass outpouring of carbon waste is tough on the downstream cats.

I would think any water ingress into the system would quickly evaporate once it reached the engine, before it ever made it to the cat... that's what sounds logical to me, at least.


With regards to engine damage - if the motor sounds normal when you start it then you probably don't have engine damage...

[Karl Lazlo]

Cold water and rapid cooling crack the cat element(s)?

[Johnmadd]

:dunno

[wstr75]

Saw this in a search tonight: see the product comments half way down the page by the guy who ran through water. Sounds like a similar water puddle event to what happened to your car:
http://www.amazon.com/Orion-SENSOR-METER-13621432356-5WK9605/product-reviews/B005L8F09M

Maybe the MAF sensor got a film of stuff on it when the water was being ingested. Sensors are sensitive to stuff on their surface. Here is a video showing how to clean a MAF sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi0tXPWwxiI

[az3579]

Maybe the MAF sensor got a film of stuff on it when the water was being ingested. Sensors are sensitive to stuff on their surface. Here is a video showing how to clean a MAF sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi0tXPWwxiI

Our hot film mass air sensors cannot be cleaned.

[wstr75]

The youtube link is of an E46 MAF being cleaned. Are our ZHP MAFs different than those on other E46 models?

[az3579]

The youtube link is of an E46 MAF being cleaned. Are our ZHP MAFs different than those on other E46 models?

Those efforts in the video are fruitless. I cringed watching it...
It's a known fact that you cannot clean a hot film MAF and expect good results. If anything, "cleaning" them offers no improvement, and many times makes it worse.

All E46's use hot film MAFs.

The kind of MAF that can be cleaned is a hot-wire MAF, such as the one that E36's use.

[wstr75]

Thanks for the information about E46 and E36 MAFs.

[bloodspatteranalyst]

I thought MAF sensors on the E46 sensors could be cleaned. I was going to ask my mechanic to give that a try but now I won't even ask.

Car is sitting at the shop. They have drained the engine and left the caps/plugs off to let it air out as best as possible.

Shop said that removing the intake manifold is necessary for draining it of the moisture/water that was sucked in, due to the way the manifold is designed. I'm guessing there is some part of the manifold where water can build up and not evaporate easily. Is that true? I tried looking for a diagram of the manifold but was unable to find one.

[GotZHP]

Sorry to hear about your car. I am currently staying in ktown and commuting to Irvine. That storm was ridiculous. I was driving and it started hailing. Saw on car on the side of the road presumably hydrolocked.

realoem.com has a parts diagram of the intake manifold

[az3579]

I thought MAF sensors on the E46 sensors could be cleaned. I was going to ask my mechanic to give that a try but now I won't even ask.

You could ask, but he should know it's a hot film MAF and give the same answer. If anything, the car should still run with a bad MAF, so it is unlikely this is causing any of your running issues.




Shop said that removing the intake manifold is necessary for draining it of the moisture/water that was sucked in, due to the way the manifold is designed. I'm guessing there is some part of the manifold where water can build up and not evaporate easily. Is that true? I tried looking for a diagram of the manifold but was unable to find one.

The intake manifold has many passages. I'd agree with what you were told, and it certainly can't hurt taking it off to let things dry out a bit.

[KIRIEIW]

Depending how brave you are, there's lots of e46's coming to the local Pick n Pulls in our area OP. You could get a M54B30 for around $300 give or take but its a shot in the dark because who knows why the car ended up there in the first place. Personally I'd find a part out on Craigslist if it came to that point, best of luck OP.

[az3579]

Depending how brave you are, there's lots of e46's coming to the local Pick n Pulls in our area OP. You could get a M54B30 for around $300 give or take but its a shot in the dark because who knows why the car ended up there in the first place. Personally I'd find a part out on Craigslist if it came to that point, best of luck OP.

The car been sold.