Square setup and Brakes for track days

[Guillaumenl]

Good Day, I would like some feedaback from track day user on good option for sone brakes and square setup. Before I get flammed I did read a lot on it but everyone has different goals and criterias so its hard to really find the answer I'm looking for. Also take into consideration I have an ls3 engine and m3 rear end (not sure about trailing arm /spindle and suspension) to make things a little more complicated.

My plan is to get Apex ARC-8 17x9 et42 on RS-3 255/40r17. I think I will need a spacer up front and camber plates with -2.5f,-2r to make them fit in without rolling the fenders. I want the 17" mainly for keeping the rubber cost down. The Apex site says the wheel will clear 355mm bbk

I currently have stock brake with pss suspension, my first project will be to instal ptoper ducting and upgrade lines/fluid and pads (not sure which one yet). I will be running two set of pads up front (street/track), so ease of pad replacement is a factor.

I currently have ST-40 on my other car (dsm) and I like them, but i dont like the replacement ring cost (brembo rings are even worst).... I would like to keep the cost of consumable as low as possible.

Idially i would like to fit 355x32mm 1 pieces rotors that are cheap to replace, i dont care about the additional weight compared to 2 pieces rotors. Might use rotors made for other cars with the proper offset if it only needs machinig for the hub and i cand find callipers that will fit.

I dont like the m3 csl "upgrade" as the rotors are expensive and are drilled (prone to cracking) and not the greatest on pad wear.

The porsche brembo option isnt the greatest because if you want the larger rotors(345mm) your stock with the m3 csl again...

6 piston 135i brakes. Not the greatest option from what i have read.

It seems the best option would be the z06 6 pot with oem like rotors but then it prob doesnt clear the 17"

I guess im back with the ST, if i go that rte I would want the larger version made for the m3/z4m (355x32mm)

http://www.bimmerworld.com/StopTech-Big-Brake-Kit-Front-MZ406-355X32-ST40.html

Would these be hard to fit?

Thanks for your feedback, don't hesitate to highlight other options I have not mentioned.

[Guillaumenl]

Also anyone has experience with that kit?

http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/super-performance-brake-kit---wilwood-superlite-four-wheel--e46-2001-2006-330ici-only-p533.aspx

[slater]

i think your wheel choice is great. light, decently affordable for a track wheel (let's not mention the CAD/USD exchange rate right now or we'll get depressed ;)). and i'm surprised a 355 will fit under the 17" ARC-8's, that is impressive.

since the LS3 engine is around the same weight as the M54B30 (415lbs for the LS3, 375lbs for the M54B30 - that's taken from the internet, so take it with a grain of salt ;)), and the mass is centered further back than the M54B30 (V8 vs I6), weight distribution is probably about the same. so you should be considering upgrading the rears as well - what are you ideas for that? because, really, in that light - the 135i brembo setup, front and rear, seems like the best option for cost/performance balance, and you've got more options for rotors.

[UdubBadger]

We were just taking about this somewhere. If you do the 135i brakes you will cook the Pistons if you don't use stock pads so either upgrade them right away or skip them.

I ran the 996s on my m3 and they were a decent upgrade over stock but the rotors were like you said CSL sized.

If you're going all out, I'd do Z06 or an actual ST kit to get the sizing correct. I'd tell you just to keep the stocks on with the brass bushing upgrade from turner but you might want some bigger stopping power since you have the bigger motor and will be seeing higher speeds than a normal Zhp.

Just know if you get the z06 kit from rally road they take fricking FOREVER to turn around orders.

Good Luck!


GoingHAM mobile

[az3579]

since the LS3 engine is around the same weight as the M54B30 (415lbs for the LS3, 375lbs for the M54B30 - that's taken from the internet, so take it with a grain of salt ;)), and the mass is centered further back than the M54B30 (V8 vs I6), weight distribution is probably about the same. so you should be considering upgrading the rears as well - what are you ideas for that? because, really, in that light - the 135i brembo setup, front and rear, seems like the best option for cost/performance balance, and you've got more options for rotors.

The 135i brakes are a garbage option for track usage. Melting piston boots and cracking piston caps make the headache even worse. On top of that, you don't get enough extra pedal feel to make it worthwhile spending that kind of coin.

What I'd do is get a nice inexpensive Wilwood setup. The calipers are cheap (I just replaced one for $180 including overnight shipping), and they offer excellent pedal feel. Combined with the pads I have (PFC01 front, Hawk DTC-something [forgot the number]) rear, I also have excellent pedal modulation, no brake fade, and can use stock E46 M3 rotors, which fit. Some very minor modifications to the dust shields are involved, but the setup works very well and is far cheaper than most of the BBK's I see for sale.

[slater]

ahh, i had forgotten about the issues with the 135i fronts. that won't work.

wilwood is a good idea - BP, where did you get your kit from?

front and rear brembo-based kits - like the stoptech kit, are going to be expensive. like $4-5K for the entire setup.

you can source front and rear 996 or 986 boxster s calipers, front and rear, for decent prices. then design a bracket that works around either the stock rotors or the E46 M3 rotors. then you've got lots of pad choices, and a full kit for $1600 + machining costs for the brackets (if you know a guy, you can get this done cheaply - i designed a set of brackets for a previous car to use with 986 boxster S front calipers).

[az3579]

wilwood is a good idea - BP, where did you get your kit from?


I bought my front and rear set used from someone on E46 Fanatics, but it's similar to the kit that UUC sells. Same calipers. Perhaps contacting them could get you their custom brackets, which would put you in business.

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[slater]

I bought my front and rear set used from someone on E46 Fanatics, but it's similar to the kit that UUC sells. Same calipers. Perhaps contacting them could get you their custom brackets, which would put you in business.

Sent from my LG V10 on Tapatalk

no need... for $2100, that's a great deal for a complete front and rear setup! it uses M3 rotor sizes too, so the rears are bigger than the standard 330 rotors.

http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/super-performance-brake-kit---wilwood-superlite-four-wheel--e46-2001-2006-330ici-only-p533.aspx

[az3579]

no need... for $2100, that's a great deal for a complete front and rear setup! it uses M3 rotor sizes too, so the rears are bigger than the standard 330 rotors.

http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/super-performance-brake-kit---wilwood-superlite-four-wheel--e46-2001-2006-330ici-only-p533.aspx
It's a great price for new stuff, for sure. I got lucky and purchased the entire setup for $1400! I paid an additional $250 or so for the track pads front and rear.

I'm sure the setup can be had for less than UUC's kit if you want to save a few bucks. Sourcing brackets may be the only challenging bit...

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[slater]

It's a great price for new stuff, for sure. I got lucky and purchased the entire setup for $1400! I paid an additional $250 or so for the track pads front and rear.

I'm sure the setup can be had for less than UUC's kit if you want to save a few bucks. Sourcing brackets may be the only challenging bit...

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the UUC kit doesn't come with brackets?

[az3579]

the UUC kit doesn't come with brackets?

The kit does - I was talking about if you want to source the stuff separately instead of buying the UUC kit.

[Guillaumenl]

Thanks a lot for the feeback guys

[jonnyd330]

Thanks a lot for the feeback guys

I don't know if you saw my thread but that UUC Wilwood kit is on sale for less than $1800 right now

[Guillaumenl]

Thx for the heads up i have been researching the willwood setup for the ladt couple of days. While not being the best caliper design I think the cost of ownership is really attractive.

[Guillaumenl]

Here's an interesting comparaison between Wilwood and AP.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1858360-AP-Racing-CP8350-vs-Wilwood-SL6R-calipers

The pad cost are awesome in the 7480 shape and they are really thick 20 mm

http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/7420---superlite4-bridge-bolt-pad-axle-set---hawk-dtc-70-20mm-thick-p520.aspx

[Guillaumenl]

I think I might contact this guy as he is somewhat local

http://www.massivebrakes.com/

[BMWCurves]

From that seller, it looks like front and rear kits are sold separately at $1500 and $1400 CAD a piece, $2,900 total. Is that cheaper than the UUC kit, given the exchange rate?

[az3579]

From that seller, it looks like front and rear kits are sold separately at $1500 and $1400 CAD a piece, $2,900 total. Is that cheaper than the UUC kit, given the exchange rate?


Nope, not cheaper. Plus, I don't think Massive's kits include as much hardware as UUC's does. UUC includes calipers all around, brackets, rotors, pads, and lines. I think the Massive kit excludes lines.

[Karl Lazlo]

I think the Massive kit excludes lines.

And excludes pads, but adds the two-piece rotors that are an option from UUC.

Wonder if Massive sells just brackets...

Current exchange rate, the Massive F kit comes in at about 1,100 bones.

[jonnyd330]

I just ordered the UUC kit today with the 15% off. Front and rear setup, I'm pretty excited.

[az3579]

I just ordered the UUC kit today with the 15% off. Front and rear setup, I'm pretty excited.

You're gonna LOVE the kit.
Every day I think to myself "DAMN my brakes feel nice!"
Makes heel and toe much easier, not having to push the brake pedal down as much.

[jonnyd330]

You're gonna LOVE the kit.
Every day I think to myself "DAMN my brakes feel nice!"
Makes heel and toe much easier, not having to push the brake pedal down as much.

Oh wow I'm so glad you said that because you are so right about heel toe with the factory brakes and it has bothered me. That was one of the reasons I wanted the new brakes. I heel toe in my VW without any issues, its got the perfect balance.

Did you install the kit yourself or have a shop do it? I have done rotor and pad swaps before but never a caliper swap. One of my buddies said he would help but I just don't want to get in over my head.

[az3579]

Oh wow I'm so glad you said that because you are so right about heel toe with the factory brakes and it has bothered me. That was one of the reasons I wanted the new brakes. I heel toe in my VW without any issues, its got the perfect balance.

Did you install the kit yourself or have a shop do it? I have done rotor and pad swaps before but never a caliper swap. One of my buddies said he would help but I just don't want to get in over my head.

I did it myself. Doing calipers isn't necessarily hard, but it is messy and you do have to bleed them properly afterwards. Bleeding them sometimes is an excercise in patience, but isn't a hard thing to do.

Just be careful with the brake lines when you're removing them from the hard lines on the body. The nuts strip very easily as it's a soft metal, so make sure you get the proper flare wrenches for the job and do not use regular wrenches. The flares wrap around the nut head and grab it better than standard open ended wrenches.

[Guillaumenl]

Good point BP, I made that mistake on my first brake job. I learn the hard way how valuable flare nut wrench are. Heres a good value set imho:
http://www.amazon.com/Williams-11692-5-Piece-Metric-Double/dp/B001DNTR4S/ref=sr_1_35?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1455823546&sr=1-35&keywords=Flare+Nut+Wrench

Jonny if you tackle this job don't cheap out on these as crappy flare nut whrench will flex and strip the nut which kind of defeat the purpose.

Also this tool makes bleeding brakes real easy:
http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_bcbe.asp

[slater]

agreed on the points above - proper tools make every job easier.

i have a motive pressure bleeder that makes 1-man bleeding possible - great for me as i'm usually working on stuff really late at night.

[AggieBlake]

+1 on the motive pressure bleeder. They're ~$50 on Amazon with the BMW/German adapter, and worth every penny. I've also used a Mityvac to do my Miata track brakes (bleed every event, flush every 6 months - so LOTS of brake work). I like the Motive a lot better. It introduces positive pressure into the system rather than pulling a vacuum. That means much less chance of air infiltrating through a fitting. I could never get the bleed nipple to seal well enough that it wouldn't let a bit of air in while I bled. The result is that you can't actually tell when all the air bubbles are out because more are constantly coming in right at the fitting. This isn't an issue with the motive. Also with the motive, you can fill the thing with a whole pint or quart of brake fluid and not worry about the reservoir running dry and ruining your flush. With the Mityvac, you have to habitually check the reservoir fluid level.

+1,000,000 on proper flare wrenches for a brake line change.

[Guillaumenl]

BP, I'm curous how hard do you track your? The rotors are up to the task? How many track days can you do before you need to change them?What pad are you running? I have pretty much researched every single option and I think it is definitely the cheapest one to own (cost of ownership which includes cost of consumable was the most important factor for me). Pads are about 40/50% cheaper than the brembo/ST. Rotors are dirt cheap 55$ on amazon for high carbon centric (i have had good experience with them on other platforms) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CRDAJQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_4&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[slater]

It introduces positive pressure into the system rather than pulling a vacuum. That means much less chance of air infiltrating through a fitting. I could never get the bleed nipple to seal well enough that it wouldn't let a bit of air in while I bled. The result is that you can't actually tell when all the air bubbles are out because more are constantly coming in right at the fitting. This isn't an issue with the motive.

totally. i actually had an issue when bleeding my brakes a few months ago (with the motive bleeder), one of the rear bleeder valves somehow did not fit the threaded hole very well, and even at 1/4 turn open, it was introducing air into the system - enough that i was seeing small bubbles. it was confusing the heck out of me one night as i probably pumped 200ml of fluid through that caliper, and the bubbles persisted! i then deduced it was the bleeder valve, and replaced it, and it bled fine after that. weird.

[jonnyd330]

Good point BP, I made that mistake on my first brake job. I learn the hard way how valuable flare nut wrench are. Heres a good value set imho:
http://www.amazon.com/Williams-11692-5-Piece-Metric-Double/dp/B001DNTR4S/ref=sr_1_35?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1455823546&sr=1-35&keywords=Flare+Nut+Wrench



So you are saying these are a good set to tackle the job and I should order them?

Thanks everyone for the advice, my buddy who is going to help me has a pressure bleeder not sure what brand it is.

[Guillaumenl]

To be honnest i have only tried HF junk and these, and there is a big difference!!! As far as I know, Williams are snap-on idustrial brand made outside of the US (Taiwan) so instead of paying 225$ for the kit, you pay arround 65$ for a well made/design tools. http://www.snaponindustrialbrands.com/DSN/wwwsnaponindustrialbrandscom/Content/PDF/Snap-on%20Industrial%20Brands%20-%20CAT3%20197.pdf

The other option, that might be even better is to buy individual snap-on whrench with the size that you need the most often (9mm-11mm and/or 10mm-12mm). I honnestly rarely/never use the bigger wrenches in the kit.

[az3579]

BP, I'm curous how hard do you track your?

I drive my car pretty hard on track. The only people that pass me on track are typically people with much faster cars, so I either keep pace or very slightly outdrive those with similar cars on track, but that may not mean much because I'm only in the Intermediate run group. I'm sure there are some advanced drivers in the higher run group that would squeeze a second faster lap than myself.

Here's a video for reference. I was experimenting with braking deeper in a couple of the corners the day this video was taken, so I do exercise the brakes hard enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoPbHRQ5y3w
(things don't heat up until maybe the 2nd or 3rd lap)



The rotors are up to the task? How many track days can you do before you need to change them?What pad are you running?

So far, yes. My stock 330i rotors were always up to the task even with my stock brakes. As long as you use a good quality track pad and some good fluid, you shouldn't experience much fade. So far with my Wilwood kit, I have experienced zero fade.

I typically run 2-3 track days per year on average. Some years I'll do 4, but I run the calipers and rotors on the street as well. I swap out the brake pads between events. For the street I use Hawk Performance Ceramic pads purely because they came with the brake kit I bought. Once they wear out, I'll be going back to the EBC Redstuff pads I've used in prior years. For the track, I use PFC01 pads in the front and Hawk DTC60 pads in the rear, which is a configuration that also came with the brake kit I bought. Once those wear out, I will be looking for a suitable PFC line of pad but on all four corners, because OCD. :)

As far as rotor life goes - I typically get at least a couple of years out of a set of rotors. On average, I have driven 31k miles a year since I've owned my car, so those 31k miles per year include track events and daily driving. Rotors last a long time, as long as the pads you're using aren't too aggressive.



I have pretty much researched every single option and I think it is definitely the cheapest one to own (cost of ownership which includes cost of consumable was the most important factor for me). Pads are about 40/50% cheaper than the brembo/ST. Rotors are dirt cheap 55$ on amazon for high carbon centric (i have had good experience with them on other platforms) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CRDAJQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_4&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I can't speak to Centric rotors as I've never used them. I'm not sure what my car has now as the rotors were included with my used kit, but they are pretty much new with regards to material. They do need to be cut slightly because I think they're ever so slightly warped. I may just end up replacing them instead, but I haven't made that decision yet. The pads are pretty cheap, but good track pads are still $$. Don't cheap out with pads just because of price if you plan on going to the track, otherwise you'll get brake fade and less enjoyment out of the experience.

[Guillaumenl]

Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated.


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[Guillaumenl]

I actually went ahead and ordered the kit a yesterday. They were able to give me the 15% discount which is great! With ref to track pad, I bought hawk dtc 70/60 which are about 150$ per axle. This is very cheap compared to other pad shape (even OEM). They might be a bit hardcore for my skill level but that is what I got anyway.


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[az3579]

I actually went ahead and ordered the kit a yesterday. They were able to give me the 15% discount which is great! With ref to track pad, I bought hawk dtc 70/60 which are about 150$ per axle. This is very cheap compared to other pad shape (even OEM). They might be a bit hardcore for my skill level but that is what I got anyway.


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I had those pads on my E30 with the UUC BBK (technically Wilwood with UUC's branding on it). The torque control of them is quite nice, though I wasn't nearly as fast back then, so I can't comment on the overall experience with them. I'm sure you'll be fine. :)

[jonnyd330]

BP what brake fluid do you run on your setup? How is it? I'm looking for recommendations.

[az3579]

BP what brake fluid do you run on your setup? How is it? I'm looking for recommendations.

ATE Typ 200, flushed every year or before every track event, whichever comes first.

[derbo]

ATE Typ 200, flushed every year or before every track event, whichever comes first.

This is the best. :D

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-176959-turner-motorsport-brake-bleeder-bottle-with-check-valve-simple-bleed.aspx

I use this instead of the Motive bleeder. It has a check valve so I can do a 1person bleed. (I pump the brakes while it just floowwws)

[Vas]

This is the best. :D

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-176959-turner-motorsport-brake-bleeder-bottle-with-check-valve-simple-bleed.aspx

I use this instead of the Motive bleeder. It has a check valve so I can do a 1person bleed. (I pump the brakes while it just floowwws)
Dude thanks.

[derbo]

Dude thanks.

A motive is hell of a lot nicer where you don't have to pump, but I needed a bleeder bottle anyways so why not? I'm glad I got this


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