Why switch (back) to ZHP from ///M?

[JanMatt]

Per a recent post in the facebook group, and several I've seen in the past as well, I'm curious as to why anyone would switch (or switch back) to a ZHP after going ///M. I assume there's a size issue if you're talking coupe to sedan. As a young professional, I figure the ZHP is the step before the ///M in maintenance, maintenance cost, as well as driving experience. Just wanted to see your opinion or why you have switched in the past!

[johnrando]

Not sure. I don't view my ZHP as the step before the M though. It's a destination all it's own. :)

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[cakM3]

Not sure. I don't view my ZHP as the step before the M though. It's a destination all it's own. :)

I tend to agree. In my case (not speaking for anyone else) I got my ///M before getting my ZHP... As much as I enjoy driving my ///M I wanted a car (BMW of course) with 4-doors and a more subtle driving experience. I "found" my ZHP and realized this car was perfect for in a what I was looking for in a daily driver but I wasn't going to leave my ZHP stock and proceeded to do numerous mods (detailed in my project thread) to get the car exactly to what I wanted in a daily driving BMW... John couldn't say it any better above "It's a destination all it's own" :thumbsup

[danewilson77]

Not sure. I don't view my ZHP as the step before the M though. It's a destination all it's own. :)

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Amen.

Sent from an S6 Edge

[ELCID86]

I have no plans to ever have an M.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[Jconlin16]

I plan to daily my ZHP for a very long time. The sheer joy of driving it around is unlike any car that I've driven. That said, I would love to add an M car as a stable mate at some point in my life. An s54'd mystic blue sedan with natural brown interior would also do it for me though... :drool

I'm a simple man ;)

[cakM3]

You can say I really never "switched back" to the ZHP from the ///M... I still have my ///M in my garage and love that I am able to have both ;) Wouldn't have it any other way!

[Lorenzo]

I have no plans to ever have an M.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

Why?

[ELCID86]

Why?

Cost, upkeep, happy with what I have, getting old...


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[Karl Lazlo]

happy with what I have


This is the best answer.

[ryankokesh]

Cost, upkeep, happy with what I have, getting old...


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

Yup.

I'd obviously like an M car, but I could never justify the costs and upkeep when I enjoy the ZHP as much as I do. I still love how it looks, even after having an e46 for eight or so years now. It costs me next to nothing to keep, especially with the depreciation being as slow as it is. And it's still a blast to drive. I'm content with it.

I wouldn't say I'll never get an M, but I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon.

[cakM3]

happy with what I have


This is the best answer.

+1

[johnrando]

Thanks Dane, Charlie. :roundel

[RUS_ZHP]

Ideally, I would like to have both. I love 4 door sedans, due to they simple look and practicality. It's my project and weekend car, which I am planning to keep for a long time. If I would be able to buy and properly maintain e46 M3, I would get it right away. Also, I have to live where it can be driven all year round.
But for now, I am pretty happy to have Imola ZHP in my garage. May be at some point it will be my daily. I heard with a good winter tires it can handle any snow.

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[cakM3]

Thanks Dane, Charlie. :roundel

:word


Ideally, I would like to have both.

Best of all worlds as far as I'm concerned :)


I love 4 door sedans, due to they simple look and practicality. It's my project and weekend car, which I am planning to keep for a long time. If I would be able to buy and properly maintain e46 M3, I would get it right away. Also, I have to live where it can be driven all year round.
But for now, I am pretty happy to have Imola ZHP in my garage. May be at some point it will be my daily. I heard with a good winter tires it can handle any snow.

I have snows mounted on my style 68s and boy is it a lot of fun to plow thru the snow in my ZHP! Of course I also have limited slip diff which also helps :)

[derbo]

I'm at the point where I want an M but don't have the heart to switch over after all that has been done to my ZHP.

[ryankokesh]

I heard with a good winter tires it can handle any snow.


Yeah, I've taken it through some super sketchy shit with a good set of winters. It's really surprisingly capable, even with an open diff. Just don't bottom out, and you're good to go.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7546/16204118466_04a93545ae_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qFUkSS)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7468/16036399637_1c833c2bb7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qr5JUV)

[Vas]

I'm at the point where I want an M but don't have the heart to switch over after all that has been done to my ZHP.
Don't do it.

[derbo]

Don't do it.

Can't. Invested too much money and don't have the time to redo a M to the exact position I am at. Time is more of an issue than anything else


-Sent from Mobile

[Vas]

Can't. Invested too much money and don't have the time to redo a M to the exact position I am at. Time is more of an issue than anything else


-Sent from Mobile
I like your thinking.

[BMWCurves]

I'm not sure about going back to a ZHP from an M3, but I wouldn't consider an M3 for a long time for a couple of reasons, many of which have already been mentioned.

I have already invested a lot into my car to make it "mine" and set it up how I like it. Certainly more than I would get back if I tried to sell it, not that I have any mind to.
I'm not a skilled driver. While I'd like to think I can safely hot-foot it around in the hills, I've never done any sort of HPDE event or school apart from a 6 hour rally course a couple of years ago and some 30 mph go karts. A ZHP fits my skill level well.
Cost: I'm 25. My insurance would definitely go up in an M3. Cost of parts and maintenance would go up as well, not to mention the buy-in is above my budget. I'm hoping to go back to school this year so it's definitely not the best decision to be pouring money into a new car endeavor.
Finally, I really like what I have. The grass isn't greener for me at the moment, in fact, it's greener on my side!

[terraphantm]

I'll add my $0.02

I started off with a ZHP 7 years ago, sold it and bought an M3 5 years ago, and last month bought another ZHP (but I still have the M3). Why did I buy it? Few reasons:
1) You may not initially realize it, but the M3 is just a lot more tiring to drive. Between the stiffer steering, stiffer clutch, stiffer shifter, stiffer suspension, and twitchier throttle, it just takes a lot more energy to drive around. I started to get frustrated with the car and was seriously considering selling it for an E9x M3 or an M5.
2) The M3's gas mileage isn't quite as nice as the ZHPs. Perhaps not a big deal with today's gas prices, but it's still nice to be able to get more than 30mpg every now and then
3) The M3 is awful to drive in winter, even if it's technically more capable thanks to the LSD.

The ZHP is a fantastic daily driver that can be driven in a sporting manner. The M3 is a sports car that can be daily driven. Best to just use each car for their intended purpose. Now that I have both, I appreciate the M3 far more than I did, and I still have fun on the daily commute.



I'm not sure about going back to a ZHP from an M3, but I wouldn't consider an M3 for a long time for a couple of reasons, many of which have already been mentioned.

I have already invested a lot into my car to make it "mine" and set it up how I like it. Certainly more than I would get back if I tried to sell it, not that I have any mind to.
I'm not a skilled driver. While I'd like to think I can safely hot-foot it around in the hills, I've never done any sort of HPDE event or school apart from a 6 hour rally course a couple of years ago and some 30 mph go karts. A ZHP fits my skill level well.
Cost: I'm 25. My insurance would definitely go up in an M3. Cost of parts and maintenance would go up as well, not to mention the buy-in is above my budget. I'm hoping to go back to school this year so it's definitely not the best decision to be pouring money into a new car endeavor.
Finally, I really like what I have. The grass isn't greener for me at the moment, in fact, it's greener on my side!


Regarding insurance and maintenance, that's not really the case. My M3 costs like $100/year more to insure than the ZHP (I'm 24), and maintenance I find to be a wash. Some of the non-M issues don't apply to M3s (M3 cooling system is damn reliable for example), and a lot of the bushings and whatnot are more durable on the M3. The increased cost of parts balances out with the increased longevity.

[3ZHP]

I really liked the M3 9+ years ago when I got my ZHP. Always thought it would be the next step when prices became more reasonable. It never happened. With a few mods my ZHP seamed to do everything I needed it to or wanted it to. Yeh, the extra 100 hp would be nice but, were would I use it besides HPDS. Yes I would like that extra HP and LSD to kick out the back end when I need to but don't want to give up what I've grown to like. I've also found after a very close comparison, that the ZHP Saloon has much more refined lines. IMHO anyway.

I've never driven a M3 but have driven a Z3 M coupe with the 2.8. That car was a blast and I could of had it but there was to much to give up for what I would get in return.


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[RUS_ZHP]

Yeah, I've taken it through some super sketchy shit with a good set of winters. It's really surprisingly capable, even with an open diff. Just don't bottom out, and you're good to go.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7546/16204118466_04a93545ae_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qFUkSS)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7468/16036399637_1c833c2bb7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qr5JUV)

That's some serious amount of snow on the ground! Car looks great when it covered with ice or snow.

[RUS_ZHP]

Nice man! Were you driving ZHP last winter as a daily when we had tons of snow almost every week?

[slater]

happy with what I have


This is the best answer.

amen to that, brothers!

i daydream about an M car - generally an F80 M3 as when the ZHP is done, that's what i want to replace it with - but i am totally content with my ZHP. it couldn't do any better. and it has plenty of power for me.

[ryankokesh]

That's some serious amount of snow on the ground! Car looks great when it covered with ice or snow.

Hah, thanks! I like to think it does, too :thumbsup


Nice man! Were you driving ZHP last winter as a daily when we had tons of snow almost every week?

I sure was. It was an experience, to say the least. I never thought I'd be tired of driving in snow, but that commute every day through a lake effect snow riddled, post-apocalyptic hell hole sure got to me. I even considered applying to be an ice road trucker, on account of my new wealth of experience.

I will say that I may (or may not) have acquired a whole new level of mastery in the art of power sliding the tail around through corners... :shifty

[NYRhockey]

I would want an M in addition to my zhp, but not a e46 M. I want a 4dr E90 M.

[ecrabb]

OK, my two cents...

I think it depends on where you live and how you use the car. I think if you're daily-driving a car and carting around friends or family, the ZHP makes a ton of sense, and I can totally see how somebody would go from an M3 to a ZHP. More practical, more comfortable, and cheaper operation.

For me, it's a different story. Personally, this category of car is a weekend car. It's my "special getaway", my escapism. So, some of the negatives of the ///M car aren't as much of a negative or aren't a negative at all.

I just got my ZHP last summer after waiting years to do it. I seriously considered a couple of M3's, but because it was my first BMW, I knew I would likely have to buy site unseen via a PPI, and any potential issues could be addressed much less expensively without exposing myself to a couple of the big-buck M3 show-stoppers (like valve adjustment on the S54), the ZHP made more sense.

Now that I've had the ZHP, and love the BMW experience and the people, I want an M3.

I really love the ZHP, but I live at 5200 feet, so the 230HP ZHP is actually down around 185HP here. It's pretty weak-sauce. I'm no race car driver, but I've driven plenty of high-performance cars, and I could use (and enjoy) a little more power. Adding power and LSD is prohibitively expensive. It would make sense if you wanted a hot-rod sedan, but the argument falls part with coupe or vert.

Then, there's collectability... I think the E46 M3 has probably bottomed out at this point. It's an amazing and legendary car, and clean low-mileage examples are available in the mid-20's. I don't think those cars are going to drop much, if any more. My ZHP? Not so much.

So, all that is leading me toward probably driving the ZHP for another year or two, enjoying the heck out of it, then selling it to go to an ///M - if for no other reason because I have to - I don't want to wonder "what if".

I just hope the prices don't go all E30 on me. It wouldn't take that much to go from "I can do that" to "That's just stupid".

OK, that was like 12 cents.

SC

[Sockethead]

1) You may not initially realize it, but the M3 is just a lot more tiring to drive. Between the stiffer steering, stiffer clutch, stiffer shifter, stiffer suspension, and twitchier throttle, it just takes a lot more energy to drive around. I started to get frustrated with the car and was seriously considering selling it for an E9x M3 or an M5.


1) Is very true with Kristen's 135 as well. With all the mods and HP, the car has incredible handling and power but sometimes I can't wait to get out of it. Probably something that no one even considers when buying an M

[slater]

1) Is very true with Kristen's 135 as well. With all the mods and HP, the car has incredible handling and power but sometimes I can't wait to get out of it. Probably something that no one even considers when buying an M

indeed. the more involving a car is, the most exhilarating - but also exhausting - it can be to drive. i can totally imagine folks not considering that, because it's something that comes with a lot more time behind the wheel.

[Rovert]

I've never driven in the snow so I don't know how it's like. LOL. Vancouver doesn't seem to want to give me a white snow day. :(

The car is harder/sharper and more urgent than the ZHP, stock for stock. If you have a modified ZHP (which I had for 4 years of 8 years of ZHP ownership) then it's feeling is probably near a stock M. It depends what your roads are like. Mine are all smooth on the west coast so I don't feel significant ride quality differences. ZHP's quicker steering rack is easier to manage in the city but it's not something that breaks the deal.

I've spent next to nothing in the 2 years of owning it for maintenance and insurance went up maybe $150/year for me. I feel it's similar to my old ZHP in the long term. What you gain with an M is a heightened experience to a truer motorsport feel. You get to feel a danger on top of the exhilaration that the ZHP gives. They're both different in that aspect but the passion that one has towards each is equal. There is no right or wrong answer.

Would I go back to a ZHP? No. The ZHP journey is over for "me" and I'm onto the next chapter. We all have different wants/needs. Let life just play out and take opportunities that you have a hunch will mesh with what your journey is to become.

[derbo]

I'll add my $0.02

I started off with a ZHP 7 years ago, sold it and bought an M3 5 years ago, and last month bought another ZHP (but I still have the M3). Why did I buy it? Few reasons:
1) You may not initially realize it, but the M3 is just a lot more tiring to drive. Between the stiffer steering, stiffer clutch, stiffer shifter, stiffer suspension, and twitchier throttle, it just takes a lot more energy to drive around. I started to get frustrated with the car and was seriously considering selling it for an E9x M3 or an M5.
2) The M3's gas mileage isn't quite as nice as the ZHPs. Perhaps not a big deal with today's gas prices, but it's still nice to be able to get more than 30mpg every now and then
3) The M3 is awful to drive in winter, even if it's technically more capable thanks to the LSD.

The ZHP is a fantastic daily driver that can be driven in a sporting manner. The M3 is a sports car that can be daily driven. Best to just use each car for their intended purpose. Now that I have both, I appreciate the M3 far more than I did, and I still have fun on the daily commute.




Regarding insurance and maintenance, that's not really the case. My M3 costs like $100/year more to insure than the ZHP (I'm 24), and maintenance I find to be a wash. Some of the non-M issues don't apply to M3s (M3 cooling system is damn reliable for example), and a lot of the bushings and whatnot are more durable on the M3. The increased cost of parts balances out with the increased longevity.

I think thats why I am considering an M3 because my ZHP does HPDE duty and it literally sits in the garage until its playtime. The only issue I have that is holding me back is time. I dont want to spend the time to build it nowadays and I rather pay. LOL

[JanMatt]

I see what you guys are saying about the M3 being a more exhausting car. The older I get (i'm 23... lol) I am relieved knowing that I have the camry to dd. Which is probably why I would think the ///M is a step up since its only for weekends. I think I will continue having a toyota camry/prius/ honda accord for daily duties in the future and hoping that the e9x sedan M3 will be in good shape and reliability by the time I am making that ///Money.

I can't guarantee moving to one of the newer M3s tho... not a fan of styling of newer cars(most brands). I'm a loser and I still like the boxy look and even the ricer (clean) for japanese cars lol. (the more plane-like the better).

Here's to hoping our wallets grow as much as our love for our cars.

[WOLFN8TR]

Cost, upkeep, happy with what I have, getting old...

Actually I spent way more on maintenance on my ZHP than the ///M so far. The mods on the other hand I've spent approx $5,000. Absolutely love driving this car on a daily basis!


I have no plans to ever have an M.


You're ///Missing out!! :foottap

Turn up the Volume!!!!!!!!!!!! :drool:drool:drool:drool:drool



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycaUFdZrI5s&index=14&list=PL6DrAp113geAyFQ JmsoJzagEXhMZLZjgD



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99vwjBeWzFk&index=37&list=PL6DrAp113geAyFQ JmsoJzagEXhMZLZjgD

[cakM3]

You're ///Missing out!! :foottap

yup!

[Rovert]

Definitely not a daily....LOL


http://youtu.be/QPjM9NuRbF4

[Fenrir]

I know it's almost sacrilegious to say this among some Bimmer groups but, I've always wanted an E36 M saloon. Heck I'd take an E46 M if the situation ever presented itself. But, I've always liked the E36. Yeah, down on power and options but we weren't even suppose to have it in the first place. And with four doors, I can always take the kids to school and hoon around for a bit afterwords :). Plus I've always loved the E36 styling.

I've driven a few E46 M's and loved them. But there is something that usually draws me back to my ZHP. Aside from the time I've put into it, I'm strangely content with it and perfectly happy with where it sits performance wise.

Now, if I ever do get an S54 car, I'd much prefer it in a shooting brake format ;). That, I'll go bonkers over and retire the ZHP to daily status. Gonna crawl back under my rock now
^.^

Sent from a blue police box

[daveuls10]

My ZHP purchase is a personal story, as many of ours probably are.

I bought my ZHP just over a year ago. Things in my life were just starting to look up after a few years of going through rough times both financially and mentally. I couldn't finish school because my financial situation couldn't allow it at the time. On the way home from my girlfriend's house, I got into a really bad accident with my e36. Totaled it when the person in front of me stopped halfway through an intersection on the highway when the light just turned yellow. We were both through the light. What I do remember was glass and some of my blood everywhere. The guy was from Singapore so the insurance money I did get from it took months for the claim to be settled. I was in the middle of studying for my series 7 because I remember taking my books out of my e36 as it was being put up on the bed of the tow truck. Well long story short, a few months went by. I quit my financial career because I absolutely hated it. I got a job as a junior level software programmer from what I had learned while still in school. It pays well for me. I used my insurance money and first paycheck to buy my ZHP. I just turned 25 two months ago and buying my ZHP just over a year ago was a major turning point in my life.

Buying the ZHP was where I realized a lot of my hard work had paid off. I now have an amazing car, still with the same girl I was with when I wrecked my e36 and my job is paying for me to finish my computer science degree when I go back to school this summer. So would I switch to an ///M? Yes. That S54 is worldly. Would I trade my ZHP in for one? I couldn't. There's a personal connection that I have with the car that I could not let go. It would still be my daily if I had an ///M.

[Lorenzo]

Thanks for sharing your personal story on ZHP. Seems that most cars come with a story. But yours is special.

[cakM3]

Seems that most cars come with a story. But yours is special.

That is true in most cases for auto enthusiasts... ;)

[brettbimmer]

I know it's almost sacrilegious to say this among some Bimmer groups but, I've always wanted an E36 M saloon. Heck I'd take an E46 M if the situation ever presented itself. But, I've always liked the E36. Yeah, down on power and options but we weren't even suppose to have it in the first place. And with four doors, I can always take the kids to school and hoon around for a bit afterwords :). Plus I've always loved the E36 styling.

I've driven a few E46 M's and loved them. But there is something that usually draws me back to my ZHP. Aside from the time I've put into it, I'm strangely content with it and perfectly happy with where it sits performance wise.

Now, if I ever do get an S54 car, I'd much prefer it in a shooting brake format ;). That, I'll go bonkers over and retire the ZHP to daily status. Gonna crawl back under my rock now
^.^

Sent from a blue police box
I'm with you. M3/4/5 please! Yes, interior bits will fly at you from every direction and they have some other quirks, but the driving experience is slightly more raw than we experience with the ZHPs. Not sure I could give up the ZHP for one though. DD is a 4 cyl. E36, and I still love it.

My ZHP purchase is a personal story, as many of ours probably are.

I bought my ZHP just over a year ago. Things in my life were just starting to look up after a few years of going through rough times both financially and mentally. I couldn't finish school because my financial situation couldn't allow it at the time. On the way home from my girlfriend's house, I got into a really bad accident with my e36. Totaled it when the person in front of me stopped halfway through an intersection on the highway when the light just turned yellow. We were both through the light. What I do remember was glass and some of my blood everywhere. The guy was from Singapore so the insurance money I did get from it took months for the claim to be settled. I was in the middle of studying for my series 7 because I remember taking my books out of my e36 as it was being put up on the bed of the tow truck. Well long story short, a few months went by. I quit my financial career because I absolutely hated it. I got a job as a junior level software programmer from what I had learned while still in school. It pays well for me. I used my insurance money and first paycheck to buy my ZHP. I just turned 25 two months ago and buying my ZHP just over a year ago was a major turning point in my life.

Buying the ZHP was where I realized a lot of my hard work had paid off. I now have an amazing car, still with the same girl I was with when I wrecked my e36 and my job is paying for me to finish my computer science degree when I go back to school this summer. So would I switch to an ///M? Yes. That S54 is worldly. Would I trade my ZHP in for one? I couldn't. There's a personal connection that I have with the car that I could not let go. It would still be my daily if I had an ///M.
Beautiful story. Sounds like you really are enjoying your E46!!!

That is true in most cases for auto enthusiasts... ;)
What are you trying to say about 3 pedal cars?! [emoji16] [emoji16]

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[KevinC]

The ultimate solution, which is not practical for many, is to own a ZHP *and* an M car. I had a Z4MC for 8 years. S54 goodness, but not my daily (at least not for the last 5.5 years - it was early on for a while).

After 8 years, I'd had enough. I'm not getting any younger (now 58) and contorting myself into and out of that thing was becoming a chore. And it was just time to move on. So I swapped it essentially for an E39 M5. If you want an M car that's not fatiguing to drive, the E39 M5 fits the bill nicely. But it can't replace my ZHP so it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Love 'em both. Having 2 cars keeps the driving experience fresh in both and promotes appreciation of the varied driving experience each provides. Win/win!

[iya_e46]

Having two small kids and owning a newish F25 X3 as a family car makes sense to me keeping my cost low with 1 car payment and using our resources somewhere else. My alpine is my 3rd E46 and only owned it going 4yrs but with so much I have done to it, I don't think I'll sell it even if I decide get a newer sedan in 2-3yrs

I remember back in 2004 I went and test drove a bnew 330ci coupe and fell in love with it, funny but I still have the same feeling owning an E46 non-m up to this day.

[fantinno]

I've toyed with the idea of buying an M3 (or a Z4M), but like most here I don't think I can give up the balance of performance and comfort of a ZHP for a DD. Especially with how terrible the roads and traffic are in my part of Seattle. It's just such a nice overall package, it's hard to give up for something more high strung.

At this point if I want a more intense driving experience, I think I'll continue with my plans to turbo the old 02' to the point of being raw, uncomfortable and seat of your pants scary ^_^

[cakM3]

The ultimate solution, which is not practical for many, is to own a ZHP *and* an M car... Love 'em both. Having 2 cars keeps the driving experience fresh in both and promotes appreciation of the varied driving experience each provides. Win/win!

+1 couldn't have said it any better Kevin :thumbsup