I woke up in Siberia

[daveuls10]

Hey guys, so it's a bit cold out this morning in NJ (12F, 3F with windchill). I went outside to warm my car up and it didn't start. Yes it is another one of these threads. But I have searched far and wide for solutions but this seems to be an extremely broad topic as far as fixes are concerned. So I'll give my specific details concerning this case.

Let's rewind. Going back to last winter, about March or so when the problem arised. The car, since around March 2015 has had a problem starting in sub 25F degree weather. But usually starts when it warms by mid day. I didn't address the issue at the time since i figured spring was near and there weren't many cold days left, which was really dumb to do. Spring and summer came. I forgot about the issue.

The not typical December we've had with the temperature rarely dropping below 40 didn't help me remember the issue either. So this brings us to today. This cold morning sparked my memory and I'm still left wondering what the exact issue could be. I should say too that going back to last March, my car was throwing lean codes. If I remember it was for both o2 sensors in bank 1. The car had a few coughs in June with acceleration but has since subsided. Back in September or so, I reset the codes and CEL was off for a few weeks. Then maybe mid October CEL came back with rich codes instead of lean. I'm wondering if the issue with the freezing cold weather starts lies in the lean/rich codes being thrown. Maybe something with the fuel pump/fuel delivery system?

Any help from you guys would be awesome.

[slater]

how old is your battery?

any codes right now?

[Scott ZHP]

I would try the cheap stuff first:

1. add a container of HEET/drygas to your tank. It's two bucks and cheap insurance, even if you don't need it. (my E53 had water in the tank and exhibited similar symptoms; I suspect the filter was moisture laden and frozen).
2. re-seat every fuel system relay in the upper glovebox rack and the E-box in the engine bay.
3. check your fuel pressure at the injector rail. Got at least 45ish lbs?

I'd think that temperature-dependant running issues are either moisture or bad-contact related.

[daveuls10]

how old is your battery?

any codes right now?


To be honest, I'm not sure how old the battery is. When I bought the car a year ago, I haven't since changed it.

Also running P0172 and P0175 codes. Rich in Banks 1 and 2.

I would try the cheap stuff first:

1. add a container of HEET/drygas to your tank. It's two bucks and cheap insurance, even if you don't need it. (my E53 had water in the tank and exhibited similar symptoms; I suspect the filter was moisture laden and frozen).
2. re-seat every fuel system relay in the upper glovebox rack and the E-box in the engine bay.
3. check your fuel pressure at the injector rail. Got at least 45ish lbs?

I'd think that temperature-dependant running issues are either moisture or bad-contact related.

I will check these thanks.

[BMWCurves]

What are the exact symptoms of the car not starting? Does the engine turn over when you turn the ignition?

[daveuls10]

What are the exact symptoms of the car not starting? Does the engine turn over when you turn the ignition?

The engine will either turn over and want to start or it will turn over to just about starting but can't get that final bit to get going.

[danewilson77]

To be honest, I'm not sure how old the battery is. When I bought the car a year ago, I haven't since changed it.

Also running P0172 and P0175 codes. Rich in Banks 1 and 2.


I will check these thanks.
Battery date is stamped on the posts.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[NoVAphotog]

The engine will either turn over and want to start or it will turn over to just about starting but can't get that final bit to get going.

My battery died last year when the temps dropped to Siberia levels. It was the Original battery. This sounds like the same thing.

[ELCID86]

Battery date is stamped on the posts.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

The more you know. Thanks!


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[daveuls10]

Battery date is stamped on the posts.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

The battery is from May 2011.

[danewilson77]

Typically a battery in this application seems to last 5-7 years, but you're very near that.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[daveuls10]

Typically a battery in this application seems to last 5-7 years, but you're very near that.

I'm going to replace the battery today and see if that helps. When I tried charging it yesterday, the portable charger was saying there wasn't much left in the battery.

[danewilson77]

Sounds good. What battery are you going with?

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[daveuls10]

Sounds good. What battery are you going with?

Thinking Duralast H7-AGM. Have a Bosch 94R right now

[danewilson77]

Ok

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[daveuls10]

Any recommendations?

[BMWCurves]

Are our cars compatible with AGM batteries? I don't personally know, I'm asking.

[wsmeyer]

I'm still confused about what you mean by won't start. Will the engine keep turning as long as you turn the key? If yes it's not the battery. If it turns and then slows a stop you've at least got battery problems and you might as well start with replacing it.

[daveuls10]

I'm still confused about what you mean by won't start. Will the engine keep turning as long as you turn the key? If yes it's not the battery. If it turns and then slows a stop you've at least got battery problems and you might as well start with replacing it.

The engine turns when the key turns but will not get going. Sometimes it will just about start but will die out. But when it is warmer it does not have a problem starting right up

[wsmeyer]

It's not that I didn't read it. You're not being specific about what is happening

[daveuls10]

It's not that I didn't read it. You're not being specific about what is happening

Not sure what else I can say besides when the key is turned to the on position, the engine will crank as how it would on a normal start up and if I hold the key in the start position, it will keep cranking but it will not turn over all the way and not start up.

I feel like I'm reiterating myself but I'm not sure if I can explain it any better.

[slater]

can you post up a video? that would help a lot.

[daveuls10]

I will try to get a video later. Car started after a few cranks this morning and before I saw the last post

[Scott ZHP]

Are our cars compatible with AGM batteries? I don't personally know, I'm asking.

Yes.

I live about 5 miles from the East Penn Manufacturing battery plant in PA. I buy AGM "blems" from them for about a third of retail (9AGM49 was $79 last time I bought one). You never know whose label is going to be on it, Deka, Exide, Duralast, sometimes no branding at all, or the label is applied half-assed or torn. They all come with a full retail warranty, which I've never had to use.

I left my ZHP in the garage when I did an assignment in Krakow a few years ago. I put fuel stabilizer in it, but left the battery connected. I came home 9 months later and my E46 started right up. Doubtful that would happen with a flooded wet cell. I'll never use anything but AGM anymore, especially given I can get them so cheaply.

[daveuls10]

Yes.

I live about 5 miles from the East Penn Manufacturing battery plant in PA. I buy AGM "blems" from them for about a third of retail (9AGM49 was $79 last time I bought one). You never know whose label is going to be on it, Deka, Exide, Duralast, sometimes no branding at all, or the label is applied half-assed or torn. They all come with a full retail warranty, which I've never had to use.

I left my ZHP in the garage when I did an assignment in Krakow a few years ago. I put fuel stabilizer in it, but left the battery connected. I came home 9 months later and my E46 started right up. Doubtful that would happen with a flooded wet cell. I'll never use anything but AGM anymore, especially given I can get them so cheaply.

Thanks for this. I just bought the duralast AGM yesterday. Although it did not solve my problem, my battery was coming to the end of it's life anyway so it was time to get one.

[KevinC]

I live about 5 miles from the East Penn Manufacturing battery plant in PA. I buy AGM "blems" from them for about a third of retail (9AGM49 was $79 last time I bought one). You never know whose label is going to be on it, Deka, Exide, Duralast, sometimes no branding at all, or the label is applied half-assed or torn. They all come with a full retail warranty, which I've never had to use.


Wow. Great to be so close to be able to score that deal. I too have a Duralast in my ZHP, it's coming up on 4 years old and seems to be cranking a bit more slowly than normal. 4 years is an eternity here in the Sonoran desert - battery life is shortest here vs entire country, even frozen tundra areas like North Dakota fare better.

Your post reminded me of this from Consumer Reports just over a year ago. Bizarre story about issues with Durmast AGMs...

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/12/some-duralast-platinum-agm-car-batteries-fall-short-in-consumer-reports-life-test/index.htm

[Scott ZHP]

Your post reminded me of this from Consumer Reports just over a year ago. Bizarre story about issues with Durmast AGMs...

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/12/some-duralast-platinum-agm-car-batteries-fall-short-in-consumer-reports-life-test/index.htm

Dunno.

My E53 is branded Exide, with just a white sticker on it. The E46 is a Deka "Exact Fit". My old Mercedes W201/190E had a Group 48 AGM I think, no issues with that one either. Maybe there was a bad batch or something.

[daveuls10]

All right guys. I have been parking my car in the garage since I've changed my battery last week so I could get to work. Since I knew I'd be working from home today, I left it outside last night to see if the new battery didn't solve the issue. Well it did not but I finally got a video. Maybe someone knows what is going on.


https://youtu.be/GDgKSCHqRrU

[BMWCurves]

It does not appear to be your battery. I'm not sure what else would be temperature dependent, but the remaining items I think are spark, fuel, and compression. How old are your spark plugs? Did you ever check your fuel pressure?

Other people with more knowledge can step in.

[daveuls10]

It does not appear to be your battery. I'm not sure what else would be temperature dependent, but the remaining items I think are spark, fuel, and compression. How old are your spark plugs? Did you ever check your fuel pressure?

Other people with more knowledge can step in.

Thanks for the reply! Have been anxiously checking since I posted.

I just changed the plugs 3 days ago. The ones that were in there were pretty dirty so I'm glad I did that. I hoped that might solve the issue as well but it didn't. Never checked my fuel pressure. On a side note. I went out about an hour ago and after about 4-5 cranks like in the video, the car started.

[slater]

Thanks for the reply! Have been anxiously checking since I posted.

I just changed the plugs 3 days ago. The ones that were in there were pretty dirty so I'm glad I did that. I hoped that might solve the issue as well but it didn't. Never checked my fuel pressure. On a side note. I went out about an hour ago and after about 4-5 cranks like in the video, the car started.

hmmm. that could definitely be a fuel pressure issue. it could be bleeding off over time. does it restart easily, say, an hour after driving?

[daveuls10]

hmmm. that could definitely be a fuel pressure issue. it could be bleeding off over time. does it restart easily, say, an hour after driving?

Yes. If I drive the car until it gets up to temp and shut it down, and wait anywhere from 30 seconds to an hour or so, it will start right up.

[slater]

Yes. If I drive the car until it gets up to temp and shut it down, and wait anywhere from 30 seconds to an hour or so, it will start right up.

have you replaced the fuel filter? it has a built in regulator. if that is going bad, you could be slowly losing fuel pressure after shutting the car down. also, it would be a good time to check the vacuum line that runs down to the fuel filter, as they get pretty dry-rotted near the connection to the fuel regulator.

[daveuls10]

have you replaced the fuel filter? it has a built in regulator. if that is going bad, you could be slowly losing fuel pressure after shutting the car down. also, it would be a good time to check the vacuum line that runs down to the fuel filter, as they get pretty dry-rotted near the connection to the fuel regulator.

I have not. This is a great bit of information. I really appreciate it. I may as well replace the filter and line together right, can't hurt.
I will search for some DIY's on replacing the fuel filter.

[slater]

I have not. This is a great bit of information. I really appreciate it. I may as well replace the filter and line together right, can't hurt.
I will search for some DIY's on replacing the fuel filter.

no problem. the DIYs are out there; it's not a particularly fun job in the winter, but it's not difficult. the worst part is being on your back underneath the car, and the potential for fuel spray; but if you pull the fuel pump fuse while it's running, it will alleviate a lot of the pressure.

[BMWCurves]

no problem. the DIYs are out there; it's not a particularly fun job in the winter, but it's not difficult. the worst part is being on your back underneath the car, and the potential for fuel spray; but if you pull the fuel pump fuse while it's running, it will alleviate a lot of the pressure.

+1

I did it about 6 months ago. Really not too bad. I would get new soft hoses as trying to preserve the old ones can make the job a lot more tedious, plus you have the peace of mind of new fuel lines down there.

[Scott ZHP]

If this were mine, I'd leave it sit outside overnight. Remove the engine covers to expose the Schrader fitting on the fuel rail. With the ignition off, take a reading before you try and start it. Should be somewhere around 40ish psi. Turn the ignition on, but don't crank the starter. Take another reading, should increase to 48-52psi. Try and start car.

If the pressure reading drops, I think your issue lies with the pump/circuit. If pressure increases and still wont start, I'd be looking at the injection circuit.

Changing the filter is a good idea. I would also replace, or at least reseat the fuel pump relay in the glovebox and the fuel injection relay in the e-box near the DME. I had a Honda Accord that had an issue identical to this, but wouldn't start when the ambient temp was above about 88F. The injection relay had a bad solder joint.

[daveuls10]

+1

I did it about 6 months ago. Really not too bad. I would get new soft hoses as trying to preserve the old ones can make the job a lot more tedious, plus you have the peace of mind of new fuel lines down there.

Ordered new hoses and lines and a fuel filter on Saturday. I figured it was the best thing to do. Might as well replace all of it while I'm down there

[daveuls10]

If this were mine, I'd leave it sit outside overnight. Remove the engine covers to expose the Schrader fitting on the fuel rail. With the ignition off, take a reading before you try and start it. Should be somewhere around 40ish psi. Turn the ignition on, but don't crank the starter. Take another reading, should increase to 48-52psi. Try and start car.

If the pressure reading drops, I think your issue lies with the pump/circuit. If pressure increases and still wont start, I'd be looking at the injection circuit.

Changing the filter is a good idea. I would also replace, or at least reseat the fuel pump relay in the glovebox and the fuel injection relay in the e-box near the DME. I had a Honda Accord that had an issue identical to this, but wouldn't start when the ambient temp was above about 88F. The injection relay had a bad solder joint.

Good tips thanks! I have a new fuel pump relay in transit. Will be doing this as well as the filter and lines. Trying to do anything and everything to solve the issue

[slater]

Good tips thanks! I have a new fuel pump relay in transit. Will be doing this as well as the filter and lines. Trying to do anything and everything to solve the issue

do the filter first and see what happens.

[Scott ZHP]

Update?

[daveuls10]

Update?

Changed the fuel filter and vacuum line that connects to it (the line was dry rotted through and where it connects to the filter had punched through it) but still a no go in the cold. I am wondering if it could be the pump fuel pump? I'm stumped still.

[daveuls10]

Just changed the fuel pump relay. Started right up, no hesitation or anything. Don't want to get my hopes up too soon, since it warmed up a few degrees up to about 33F from 28F a few hours ago. I tried starting the car before changing the relay, nothing. After changing, it started right up. I also cleared my codes and did another scan. No rich codes anymore!

I am hoping this resolves the issue. On a side note, it was a PAIN getting to the relays behind the glovebox in the cold.

[slater]

Changed the fuel filter and vacuum line that connects to it (the line was dry rotted through and where it connects to the filter had punched through it) but still a no go in the cold. I am wondering if it could be the pump fuel pump? I'm stumped still.

hmmm. at least you've ticked a good maintenance item off your list!



Just changed the fuel pump relay. Started right up, no hesitation or anything. Don't want to get my hopes up too soon, since it warmed up a few degrees up to about 33F from 28F a few hours ago. I tried starting the car before changing the relay, nothing. After changing, it started right up. I also cleared my codes and did another scan. No rich codes anymore!

excellent - try again tomorrow morning and see what happens!

[BMWCurves]

Just changed the fuel pump relay. Started right up, no hesitation or anything. Don't want to get my hopes up too soon, since it warmed up a few degrees up to about 33F from 28F a few hours ago. I tried starting the car before changing the relay, nothing. After changing, it started right up. I also cleared my codes and did another scan. No rich codes anymore!

I am hoping this resolves the issue. On a side note, it was a PAIN getting to the relays behind the glovebox in the cold.

:fingerscrossed that was the issue and it's resolved!

[daveuls10]

Started right up this morning!!! WOOOOOOO

[slater]

Started right up this morning!!! WOOOOOOO

excellent!! :cheers

[Scott ZHP]

Started right up this morning!!! WOOOOOOO

And there was much rejoicing.

Acid test ought to be tomorrow night, they are calling for record cold in PA/NJ.

[alexandre]

It's -39 degrees F with windchill here in Montreal this weekend. Mindblowing.

[ELCID86]

So I'm in SC and hoping to make it back to VA today. Not looking too promising... 6" on the ground at home with more on the way and then freezing rain. I'm in a holding pattern until I can get a better read on conditions. I don't want to be stuck on the road (or in a ditch)...


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[johnrando]

definitely better safe than sorry.