combating PCV+catch can freeze-ups - possible solution?

[slater]

so, it's december... sub-zero temps are looming (although it's supposed to be 50ºF today), and i am thinking about keeping my catch can from freezing, in a no-fuss, i-don't-have-to-think-about-it sorta way.

the can is metal, so here's the first draft of my plan:

- 5w silicone pad heater, 0.4A, 12v DC (low power draw and low footprint - only 1x1" - will fit on the can easily)
- 10A, 12v DC programmable solid state thermostat (used in commecial CCV applications - http://www.oemheaters.com/ProductDocuments/Sensors/engenity,%20SoliStat%20Family,%20Rev%20B.pdf)

i will have to figure out where i'm going to wire this in, but the idea is that when the temps fall below freezing - at a programmable temp point - this thing will kick on and warm up the catch can. now, i have no idea how much this is going to draw on my battery in an 'overnight' type of situation, but i assume it will kick on, heat up the can, turn off, then kick on again when the temp of the can falls, etc. also, it's a portable solution - goes where the car goes, no need to plug it in.

any electronic gurus out there that can help me figure this out? i'm a mechanical guy.

thanks!

peter

[ryankokesh]

I have no idea how much this will draw, etc, but 0.4A is not a lot. A phone is like 2A, right?

Have you considered sandboxing it from your main battery? Necessary? Not sure...

Solar maybe? http://www.solutionsfromscience.com/product/worlds-smallest-solar-generator/

[NoVAphotog]

so, it's december... sub-zero temps are looming (although it's supposed to be 50ºF today), and i am thinking about keeping my catch can from freezing, in a no-fuss, i-don't-have-to-think-about-it sorta way.

the can is metal, so here's the first draft of my plan:

- 5w silicone pad heater, 0.4A, 12v DC (low power draw and low footprint - only 1x1" - will fit on the can easily)
- 10A, 12v DC programmable solid state thermostat (used in commecial CCV applications - http://www.oemheaters.com/ProductDocuments/Sensors/engenity,%20SoliStat%20Family,%20Rev%20B.pdf)

i will have to figure out where i'm going to wire this in, but the idea is that when the temps fall below freezing - at a programmable temp point - this thing will kick on and warm up the catch can. now, i have no idea how much this is going to draw on my battery in an 'overnight' type of situation, but i assume it will kick on, heat up the can, turn off, then kick on again when the temp of the can falls, etc. also, it's a portable solution - goes where the car goes, no need to plug it in.

any electronic gurus out there that can help me figure this out? i'm a mechanical guy.

thanks!

peter

Maybe wire it to the same signal that sets off that 37 degree beep...I know nothing about this sort of thing, but it sounds like an awesome idea Peter!

On another note...we gotta stop ordering from German Auto Solutions so they stop making coolant caps and can bring their upgraded CCV kit to market...

[slater]

I have no idea how much this will draw, etc, but 0.4A is not a lot. A phone is like 2A, right?

Have you considered sandboxing it from your main battery? Necessary? Not sure...

Solar maybe? http://www.solutionsfromscience.com/product/worlds-smallest-solar-generator/

re: power draw - yes, it's not a lot, but the idea here is that it may be running for a few hours between ignition starts. i just don't want to not drive my car for 2 days in the middle of winter and then not have enougn cold cranking amps to get it started...

the solar generator is cool but that won't help here. :) i could always just buy an AC pad heater and plug it into a programmable timer in my garage, but this solution is to make it more autonomous, and not dependent on an outside power source (but that solution would be WAY easier ;) ).



Maybe wire it to the same signal that sets off that 37 degree beep...I know nothing about this sort of thing, but it sounds like an awesome idea Peter!

well, the idea is that this thing would be running when the car is off - as soon as the ambient temp dropped to a certain value, which i would be programming - and it would likely be something around -5ºC/20ºF. there is going to be radiant heat from the engine for a while after shut-down, and i've got my catch can placed right next to a coolant hose for radiant heat purposes, so it likely won't be running all that much. unless i relocate the can to the 'drug bin', which might be good for ease of emptying.



On another note...we gotta stop ordering from German Auto Solutions so they stop making coolant caps and can bring their upgraded CCV kit to market...

LOL. :) their solution looks good from the details they've got on their website. i hope it comes to fruition, i would buy one - i want the most autonomous solution possible!

peter

[BMWCurves]

Cool idea, Peter!

I'm drawing on some very basic math and I'm not sure it's correct but let's roll the dice anyways :p Let's assume you have a healthy 12V battery that is rated to 40Ah. If you're using a 0.4A heater continuously (worst case scenario), you'll have 40Ah/0.4A = 100 hours worth of life (about 4 days). Now, I'm not sure if that's 100 hours until the battery is empty or 100 hours until it cannot deliver more than 10.5V or some other voltage value. Also, the relationship between battery capacity and discharge rate is not linear.

If you include the 10A thermostat, the math works out to 10.5A (rounding) and 40Ah/10.5A = 3.8 hours (continuous). 10.5 Amps is a pretty heavy draw (why is a thermostat using so many Amps?!), but in real life situations I doubt it would be continuous. However, this is one of those scenarios where the high Amperage draw will probably mean the battery will deliver less output, so maybe 75% of that calculated value.


the solar generator is cool but that won't help here. :) i could always just buy an AC pad heater and plug it into a programmable timer in my garage, but this solution is to make it more autonomous, and not dependent on an outside power source (but that solution would be WAY easier ;) ).

If you don't park your car on the street for extended periods of time i.e. when it isn't driven it's in the garage, I'd personally go this route. It would reduce unnecessary draw i.e. wear on the battery and is far easier, although I understand the desire for a standalone setup (I think it's a cool idea). Someone more electronic savvy could help you out.

[slater]

If you don't park your car on the street for extended periods of time i.e. when it isn't driven it's in the garage, I'd personally go this route. It would reduce unnecessary draw i.e. wear on the battery and is far easier, although I understand the desire for a standalone setup (I think it's a cool idea). Someone more electronic savvy could help you out.

after i posted this thread i realized, hey, why don't i ask my father? he's an electrical and mechanical engineer. duh!

as per usual, he had a brilliant and simple approach:

- use the 5w, 0.4A 12v DC silicone heater pad i suggested
- mount a normally-closed, 0ºC thermal snap action switch to the side of the can, and wire that into the heater pad. this will close the circuit when the temp reaches 0ºC (32ºF) and close it when it goes above.

this should provide:
- intermittent cycling of the heater pad in an autonomous way
- use the least amount of electricity
- cost about $25 to implement :)

i love it! ordering parts ASAP. :)

[BMWCurves]

Hah, that would have been the first person I would have contacted. Sounds like a good plan, I wasn't even aware of such a part. Let us know how it goes, I'm interested in my off-in-the-future conversion to a catch can, mainly for my short distance driving habits.

[rkneeshaw]

I was unaware that his could happen, so thank you for bringing this up. I garage my car in the winter but if the roads are clear I have been known to take it out for a drive. I'll be mindful of this from now on.

[BMWCurves]

I would think you would be fine as long as you don't park it outside in below freezing weather after a relatively short drive, I could be wrong though.

@Peter, have any of the parts come? I want to see this set up :foottap

[slater]

I would think you would be fine as long as you don't park it outside in below freezing weather after a relatively short drive, I could be wrong though.

@Peter, have any of the parts come? I want to see this set up :foottap

it can happen in your garage too, if it's cold enough. :) (mine is)

i don't have the parts yet.... this coming week is christmas; a week from today we leave for 10 days, and will be taking the odyssey... so it won't be until after we get back that i implement it. shouldn't take long though.

[rkneeshaw]

Hey have you heard of using the M56 valve cover? It has a built in CCV, and thus no need for a catch can. I'm looking into that quite seriously becuase it seems like an optimal factory solution.

[slater]

Hey have you heard of using the M56 valve cover? It has a built in CCV, and thus no need for a catch can. I'm looking into that quite seriously becuase it seems like an optimal factory solution.

interesting!! i will check that out!

[slater]

finished up the test phase of this project tonight - it is very simple. 5w 12v silicone pad heater on the bottom of the catch can, and a 0C/32F normally-closed thermoswitch mounted on top of the catch can. the idea is that when the temp of the can hits 0C/32F or below, the thermoswitch opens and fires up the 5w pad heater. once the temp of the catch can goes above 0C/32F, the thermoswitch closes.

the pad heater draws so little power that this should be a viable solution for -20C weather, even when the car sits for days on end. total cost in parts was about $25.

will post pics of the rough setup in a few days.

[BMWCurves]

Test ittttt. Take it out in ze cold

[slater]

Test ittttt. Take it out in ze cold

tested. it is -6ºC here this morning - perhaps a bit warmer in my garage, but not much - definitely still below freezing. i popped the hood and felt the top of the can - not warm, but not cold either. i felt the bottom of the can and it was warm - the pad had been on recently. success so far!

here's some pics. i silicone'd the heating pad to the bottom of the catch can (pic 1). next i wired in the harness i built directly into the +12v and ground connections at the 'drug bin' (pic 2). the harness is pretty much concealed. i used an OE audi 2-wire connector from my parts bin so that i can easily disconnect the heating pad from the car. next two pics show the can with the thermoswitch mounted on top - my catch can has a dipstick, so i enlarged one of the mounting holes on the thermoswitch to accept the dipstick as a fastener - i wanted it on the top of the can anyway - and this means no holes made in the can. it's entirely removable, and this is prototype #1, so please excuse the crudity of the wiring. i just wanted to test it.

i'm calling this system a 'CCAF' - CatchCanAntiFreeze. :)

[BMWCurves]

Looks good! What are your input and output pipes to your catch can?

[slater]

Looks good! What are your input and output pipes to your catch can?

input comes from the valve cover, output goes to the 'CCV ports' on the intake manifold. aside from the 4" of 3/4" goodyear heater hose running off the valve cover, i'm using some pricey ($10/foot) very high-pressure 5/8" oil-resistant hose for the rest - any off-the-shelf 5/8" or 3/4" hose i found would collapse, even under the little amount of vacuum being pulled (which is limited by the PCV valve).

[ELCID86]

You amaze me. Good work.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[cakM3]

Nice work Peter! :thumbsup


Sent from my iPhone6S using Tapatalk

[slater]

You amaze me. Good work.


Nice work Peter! :thumbsup

thanks guys!! :cheers

it's -14C here this morning. haven't checked on the system in a few days, will check today and check the can as the car was outside last night.

[slater]

it is -19ºC here this morning (-29ºC with the windchill)!

i haven't opened the catch can since i installed the CCAF prototype system, 9 days ago. the can was warm this morning (well, it was above freezing - which is warm compared to -19ºC ;) ), and i opened it up to find, pleasantly, the lovely business in the picture below. it's the normal wintertime oil/water vapor condensate, which is about 5% oil, or less. it was maybe 6-7mm in depth, and poured right out - no freezing anywhere in the can. mission accomplished! :cheers

[anandoc]

it is -19ºC here this morning (-29ºC with the windchill)!

i haven't opened the catch can since i installed the CCAF prototype system, 9 days ago. the can was warm this morning (well, it was above freezing - which is warm compared to -19ºC ;) ), and i opened it up to find, pleasantly, the lovely business in the picture below. it's the normal wintertime oil/water vapor condensate, which is about 5% oil, or less. it was maybe 6-7mm in depth, and poured right out - no freezing anywhere in the can. mission accomplished! :cheers

Great!! Your pic didn't seem to come through though

[slater]

Great!! Your pic didn't seem to come through though

whoops. :) forgot to upload it!

[BMWCurves]

Nicely done!

[anandoc]

This is awesome. So if you pop open your oil cap do you see any 'mayo' at all?

You need to write up a full DIY with part numbers etc so we can implement this solution as well :)

[slater]

This is awesome. So if you pop open your oil cap do you see any 'mayo' at all?

You need to write up a full DIY with part numbers etc so we can implement this solution as well :)

just checked, and nope, no mayo. this setup pulls a bit more vacuum than the stock setup so the condensate leaves the head and goes to the catch can - so that's where the 'mayo' (condensate) goes - and stops. it needs to be checked and emptied a few times over the winter (much less now, thanks to the CCAF keeping things warm!), but the rest of the year it's pretty maintenance-free - i might check the can contents once during the summer.

re: the DIY - i've documented it here in this already, however i could make a 'master thread', i suppose. i would really like to polish it a bit more to make it more presentable under-hood. i also would like to find a better location for the can - the 'drug bin' would be ideal, but it's quite a hose run from the valve cover and intake manifold.

it would be really great if GAS finished their CCV-replacement solution. my CCAF could be applied to their setup though.

[BMWCurves]

+1 for a DIY when you get it all done. I think I want to convert mine to a catch can eventually. Not sure which can I would use. I was interested in Radium Engineering's setup for the E46, but it's $300 and the can itself doesn't have baffling of any sort.

[az3579]

i haven't opened the catch can since i installed the CCAF prototype system, 9 days ago.


just checked, and nope, no mayo. this setup pulls a bit more vacuum than the stock setup so the condensate leaves the head and goes to the catch can - so that's where the 'mayo' (condensate) goes - and stops. it needs to be checked and emptied a few times over the winter (much less now, thanks to the CCAF keeping things warm!), but the rest of the year it's pretty maintenance-free - i might check the can contents once during the summer.

You saying that you have to only empty it a small handful of times over the winter and maybe once in the summer leads me to believe that it isn't as frequently as I imagined it to be, but then the distance driven is a big factor in this. How many kms do you drive on average between can dumps?

[ELCID86]

Awesomeness.


---
"ZHP is a garbage option anyway- just some cosmetic upgrades with a different cam and diff to claw back some of the performance lost fitting those hideous and heavy wheels. Any 330 with a 3.46 diff will smoke a ZHP every time. The whole Mafia thing reeks of childish behavior." - an e46fanatic

[MrMaico]

Nice work on a diy fix. I have to wonder, with the temps you mentioned, if you have some type of block heater setup? My car sits most of the winter, unless there is a 20f or so cloudy day so the streets aren't melting. But at your temps (we get those here too) I would worry about starting A cold engine without some type of block heater. If I would ever need to drive my car in winter I would be installing one of these on my oil pan. I'm interested in the M56 VC mod....can someone tell me what model used the M56 so I can check it out on realoem?

http://www.summitracing.com/mobiledetection?device=tablet&origUrl=http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-23996?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAiA2ve0BRDCgqDtmYXlyjkSJACEPmdwQQb1i6T3 jwPllm1DeULXYqBlfZcLrhQ-6VKGKh5JaRoC3S_w_wcB&ibanner=MobileSwitchNo

[MrMaico]

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=AZ33-USA-01-2004-E46-BMW-325i&diagId=11_3102.

$580 new at Huskerparts! Ouch.....looks like used would have to be the way to go. That's crazy for a piece of plastic.

[slater]

+1 for a DIY when you get it all done. I think I want to convert mine to a catch can eventually. Not sure which can I would use. I was interested in Radium Engineering's setup for the E46, but it's $300 and the can itself doesn't have baffling of any sort.

the radium setup looks pretty nice. it does have some 'baffling' - they use steel wool. not a good idea to me (what if those metal fibers break up? they'll get sucked right into your engine!). and it is $300. my entire setup, even with the heater, is about $150.



You saying that you have to only empty it a small handful of times over the winter and maybe once in the summer leads me to believe that it isn't as frequently as I imagined it to be, but then the distance driven is a big factor in this. How many kms do you drive on average between can dumps?

let me rephrase that - with the 'CCAF' system i added, it only needs to be emptied a few times over the winter - but you're right, distance driven could play a role in determining the interval, but regular driving is the best thing for keeping heat in the system though (heat combats 'mayo' buildup). but if your rings aren't sealing well (if you're not leaking oil, that's the only thing i can think of for where the oil is going), introducing more vacuum to the crankcase will help them seal better and should reduce your oil consumption by a lot. i was using 1qt/1000 miles and now i'm using 1/10th of that.



Awesomeness.

thanks shawn. :)



Nice work on a diy fix. I have to wonder, with the temps you mentioned, if you have some type of block heater setup? My car sits most of the winter, unless there is a 20f or so cloudy day so the streets aren't melting. But at your temps (we get those here too) I would worry about starting A cold engine without some type of block heater. If I would ever need to drive my car in winter I would be installing one of these on my oil pan. I'm interested in the M56 VC mod....can someone tell me what model used the M56 so I can check it out on realoem?

http://www.summitracing.com/mobiledetection?device=tablet&origUrl=http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-23996?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAiA2ve0BRDCgqDtmYXlyjkSJACEPmdwQQb1i6T3 jwPllm1DeULXYqBlfZcLrhQ-6VKGKh5JaRoC3S_w_wcB&ibanner=MobileSwitchNo

that heating pad you linked to is a 400w heater - whoa! great for an oil pan, but not the catch can (my heating pad is 5w).

to answer your question - no, i don't have any kind of block heater or oil pan heater setup. my car is garaged, however my garage is not insulated and pretty drafty - on a -19C day, it might be -15C in the garage. not a huge difference. i have a fairly new battery (1 year old), and use 5w40 weight oil year-round. the car always starts, and without protest. it cranked a little slower last winter when it was -25C for like 2 weeks straight and was getting started every few days, but it still started.

if we move to ottawa, where it is generally colder, i might consider an oil pan heating pad.

the M56 valve cover is an interesting idea, but i like the idea of a little more vacuum on the crankcase to help the rings seal better. the M56 valve cover won't help that.

[az3579]

let me rephrase that - with the 'CCAF' system i added, it only needs to be emptied a few times over the winter - but you're right, distance driven could play a role in determining the interval, but regular driving is the best thing for keeping heat in the system though (heat combats 'mayo' buildup). but if your rings aren't sealing well (if you're not leaking oil, that's the only thing i can think of for where the oil is going), introducing more vacuum to the crankcase will help them seal better and should reduce your oil consumption by a lot. i was using 1qt/1000 miles and now i'm using 1/10th of that.

So you don't have any mileage figures? This totally decides whether I entertain the idea of a catch can setup.

[slater]

So you don't have any mileage figures? This totally decides whether I entertain the idea of a catch can setup.

sorry man, totally forgot. :)

the last 4 months have been odd because we have the odyssey now as well and the car was off the road for 5 weeks during the refresh.... it's only done maybe 3K miles since september. but typically it does 20K miles a year, generally even usage year-round - but it will sit for 2-3 days without use sometimes. then we'll take it on the road for a week. it sees 10min trips and 8hr trips.

heat really is the major factor in 'mayo' buildup. if you're driving longer periods at a time, you're not going to be producing that much - so, in that light, i don't really see mileage being the issue, but usage.

in short, i think your usage profile, despite longer drives/more mileage, is perfect for this setup.

[az3579]

sorry man, totally forgot. :)

the last 4 months have been odd because we have the odyssey now as well and the car was off the road for 5 weeks during the refresh.... it's only done maybe 3K miles since september. but typically it does 20K miles a year, generally even usage year-round - but it will sit for 2-3 days without use sometimes. then we'll take it on the road for a week. it sees 10min trips and 8hr trips.

heat really is the major factor in 'mayo' buildup. if you're driving longer periods at a time, you're not going to be producing that much - so, in that light, i don't really see mileage being the issue, but usage.

in short, i think your usage profile, despite longer drives/more mileage, is perfect for this setup.

Are you saying the can will not fill up if there's no mayo, as in longer drives? I was under the assumption that it will always be filling with whatever it collects regardless of driving style...

[MrMaico]

Slater....yes that would definitely have to be an oilpan heater. I realize they will start up just fine but it's just the thought of that cold engine and oil at startup that would make me cringe every time. I started mine Wed. morning at 10f after it sat for a couple of months and it took right off, stumbled for a second until I blipped the throttle then it smoothed right out.

BP.....I just took a couple of pics showing how mine looked after about a 70 mile drive the other day and don't see any signs of mayo. Seeing that rust on the cap is going to bug me now though, might have to order a new one. :-)

Barry

2389423895

[MrMaico]

Turns out the cap is plastic so that was just crud I was seeing....

23902

[slater]

Are you saying the can will not fill up if there's no mayo, as in longer drives? I was under the assumption that it will always be filling with whatever it collects regardless of driving style...

if your piston rings are toast, it will fill up with blow-by. no two ways about it. but the increased vacuum helps the low-tension rings to seal better, and if they're sealing properly, you won't get much oil at all - i think i collected maybe 200ml all summer. in the winter, you'll get mostly mayo, which is the oil/water vapor condensate; it collects in the can, though, not under the valve cover (due to the increased vacuum). see my pic below - this is my oil cap this morning before i drove the car - totally mayo-free.

[anandoc]

Just saw this ECS Tuning designed/engineered catch-can setup for the E46 M3. Has anybody checked it out?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/ecs-s54-baffled-oil-catch-can-system/015515ecs01-01kt/

[slater]

No shots of the inside of the can - so we have no idea what the baffling is like, if there even is any.

Pass. :)


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