4K power dip dealer fix

[florida2002m3]

how many people have gone to the dealer to get this fixed? Do they charge? if so how much?

I dont really have a strong dip, but i can kind of notice it.
Can i have the dealer check and see what software im running? If so is there a cost for that?

Thanks for your experience guys.

[Crickett]

I had the dealer send my ECU off to NJ for the 4k reprogram. Charged me $100: $26.38 for the recode, $73.62 for labor.

Edit: Well damn, I didn't get a new DISA . . . I guess that's what I get for not knowing about the SIB.

[florida2002m3]

What is an SIB?

Does the dealership charge for the software and the DISA?

I thought it was just a software problem and didnt really involve HW (DISA)

How long did it take to get the ECU back?

Couldnt you take out the ECU yourself and save some $$?

thanks for the Doc looks like this is an official BMW release, if i bring this to them will they know what it is?

[Crickett]

SIB = "Service Information Bulletin", usually associated with known problems & fixes or recalls; officially released by BMW NA. Yeah, mention the SIB number to a dealership service advisor & they should know exactly what you're talking about.

IIRC, it only took a couple days to have the ECU out, reprogrammed, & back; I'm pretty sure they overnight it.

I imagine you probably could walk into the dealership with ECU in hand; might depend on the dealership whether they'd service it or not.

[florida2002m3]

I just printed it and im gonna head to the dealership right now..... we will see what they say, be back in a bi with an update.

[florida2002m3]

He ran a check on the VIN didnt pull anything up.
I showed him the SIB, he said they would have to check the car out=1 hour of labor=$125

Same thing to see my current software, $125.

The dip isnt really bad, and to be honest if i never read anything about it....... i prolly wouldnt have paid any attention to it.
Not sure if its worth going down that path with BMW.

Maybe bugging BMWNA will give me some results.
Is this the SIB info that i should reference: Engine Electrical B12 209 05 04/06/2005

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I dislike so many dealers.

[adb1028]

I wouldnt bother with the dealer on this issue, it just seems like a dead end everytime. My vote is to go to a good indy shop and have them update your DME. It shouldn't cost more than $100 and the problem should get fixed.



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[Crickett]

Ah-HAH! That's why I didn't get a new DISA! Good to know I wasn't jerked around . . . more than usual, anyway. :eeps

[adb1028]

Aw hell, a newer TSB supersedes the one I posted!
SI B 12 17 05
September 2005

I've attached it. It appears they've gotten snooty about doing the repair. Jerks!

I think there is a more recent SIB then this one. I believe they don't have to send the DME to Jersey anymore, but can do the update in house now.

Looks like they ninja edited out that little tid-bit on the DISA too, Jerks!

[florida2002m3]

I would head to an INDY shop, but in reality..... i cud take that $100+ and put it towards a shark which will fix the same issue along with other perks.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

I'm going to my friend's Indy shop to see if I have the right software.

[adb1028]

I'm going to my friend's Indy shop to see if I have the right software.

Let us know what he says about the whole 4k dip/ZHP software situation. I'd really like to know what the procedure is, and if BMW actually released an updated ZHP specific software.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Let us know what he says about the whole 4k dip/ZHP software situation. I'd really like to know what the procedure is, and if BMW actually released an updated ZHP specific software.

I will.

[florida2002m3]

Let us know what he says about the whole 4k dip/ZHP software situation. I'd really like to know what the procedure is, and if BMW actually released an updated ZHP specific software.

+1000

[danewilson77]

Usually charge one hour labor.

[danewilson77]

Additionally...I think the Shark may update your car to the latest BMW software. We would want to verify though...

[Mtnman]

Ok Off Topic. I love you guys. This was posted at 245 pm. I was at work. Had meetings till 730pm. I get home and there are 20 replies already. What a great place to be. :fistpump back to topic.
look into software. if you already have to spend the 125, why not hit the 300 or so and just get the shark....if it solves the problem and gives you updated software too, plus maybe other gains. Win in my book. Obviously, need to verify that first.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

:grouphug

[danewilson77]

:grouphug

:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grou phug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug: grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:group hug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:g rouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouph ug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:gr ouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphu g:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:gro uphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug :grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grou phug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug: grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:group hug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:g rouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouph ug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:gr ouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphu g:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:grouphug:gro uphug

Since we are up to 350+ now.....

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Very pretty.

[mimalmo]

I wouldnt bother with the dealer on this issue, it just seems like a dead end everytime. My vote is to go to a good indy shop and have them update your DME. It shouldn't cost more than $100 and the problem should get fixed.



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If it were that easy, BMWNA would be instrucing dealers to simply update the software at the dealership. Instead they have them ship it to NJ. That tells me that it cannot be fixed via a simple software update so a local indie shop will not be able to do anything to fix it. That also means that the Shark software can't fix it either.

[danewilson77]

The Shark software fixed whatever was making my car laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag around 4k rpm's. Not saying it couldn't be a different issue though....

[mimalmo]

Again, if it was that simple, BMW NA would have their dealers do it instead of going through the trouble of pulling the DMA, shipping it to NJ and giving the owner a loaner car for a few days.

[danewilson77]

I think the mail off may fix more the 4k dip?

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[danewilson77]

I will be dyno-ing when I get my AFE intake....in approx 3 weeks.

[MrMaico]

I think there is a more recent SIB then this one. I believe they don't have to send the DME to Jersey anymore, but can do the update in house now.

Looks like they ninja edited out that little tid-bit on the DISA too, Jerks!

Do you have any documentation of this? Never heard this before.


If it were that easy, BMWNA would be instrucing dealers to simply update the software at the dealership. Instead they have them ship it to NJ. That tells me that it cannot be fixed via a simple software update so a local indie shop will not be able to do anything to fix it. That also means that the Shark software can't fix it either.

Exactly. That's why I tried to ask Mr Conforti about this in Dane's thread. Never got an answer though. I just would like to know why BMW has to send it off to Jersey to fix it and if the Shark is doing the same thing with just a download? Makes me wonder if there might be actually some hardware change as well in BMW's fix. Also I've heard of some people having the dip come back after having the BMW ship/fix done. If it only costs $100 it's not a big deal but that seems awful cheap. I'm guessing most dealers would charge more than that.

Mine is like the OPs, not that noticeable so I don't know if I want to do anything about it. Last time I drove it a couple weeks ago I tried several times to get it to do it and couldn't feel anything but the temp was only 3 F so I will wait till warmer weather to make any decision.

Barry

[danewilson77]

I will post this here as a comparison dyno (Just as a backup to Johnmadd coming with me and dyno-ing his car)

This guy pulled:

2003 BMW 330i ZHP (mileage : 19,900)
HP : 207
TQ : 200

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/stockdyno.jpg

[MrMaico]

I will post this here as a comparison dyno (Just as a backup to Johnmadd coming with me and dyno-ing his car)

This guy pulled:

2003 BMW 330i ZHP (mileage : 19,900)
HP : 207
TQ : 200

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/nicee46/Maintenance%20and%20Misc/stockdyno.jpg

Damn! I'll admit, I haven't looked at a whole lot of ZHP dyno numbers but isn't that a bit above average? Seems to me 190-200 is closer to what we should have.

[danewilson77]

Probably. We always use 15% as power train loss. Maybe we are over conservative on that...IDK.

IMA make a dyno thread......

[MrMaico]

I'm still reading this thread but there is some good info here (post #94 in particular) along with alot of garbage too though.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=572363

Time to head to work.....

[danewilson77]

Barry, see the PDF in post #12.

So the software hasn't been updated since 2005? Jim told me he put the latest and greatest BMW software on my dme as well as the Shark. I wonder what this means. We need Jim to come on here and give us a short paragraph on what he knows.

[florida2002m3]

So the software hasn't been updated since 2005? Jim told me he put the latest and greatest BMW software on my dme as well as the Shark. I wonder what this means. We need Jim to come on here and give us a short paragraph on what he knows.


Someone get Jim on here, the mystery must be solved.


On a side note, since the dealership is going to charge $125 to check it out, i may just head over to the local dyno and for $100 i can get my chart and see if its the normal 330 leveling at 4200 or if its the ZHP dip. Plus i will get some dyno numbers ect.

[MrMaico]

Barry, see the PDF in post #12.

That's the one that refers to sending the DME to Jersey. adb said he heard that isn't necessary anymore so I'd like to know if that's true or not. Would be nice.


So the software hasn't been updated since 2005? Jim told me he put the latest and greatest BMW software on my dme as well as the Shark. I wonder what this means. We need Jim to come on here and give us a short paragraph on what he knows.

Seth at JBEurotech told me the latest update came out in 2008 when I had mine done there.

[danewilson77]

OK.....great info.

[kaboom]

Has anyone verified the shark thing fixes the dip with a dyno?

I can do them back to back. How long does it take to get the shark?

Ian

[danewilson77]

I am dyno-ing in three weeks hopefully.

Shark took me 4 days to get.....from TMS.

[MrMaico]

Has anyone verified the shark thing fixes the dip with a dyno?

I can do them back to back. How long does it take to get the shark?

Ian

That would be great! Looking forward to seeing what you find out.

Barry

[kaboom]

I may not have to do it to find out, though i still want the shark. Look at this:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/dyno/E46330_shark.pdf

Clear as day, that dip is still there with the shark.

We should find out if anyone has had the dealer successfully fix their 4krpm dip.

Ian

[danewilson77]

Sure the dip is there.....but I think it is less pronounced with Shark. I honestly can't feel a lag in that area now. I am not lying. I am not making this up. I am being truthful. It is my observation.....that is all.

[MrMaico]

I may not have to do it to find out, though i still want the shark. Look at this:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/dyno/E46330_shark.pdf

Clear as day, that dip is still there with the shark.

We should find out if anyone has had the dealer successfully fix their 4krpm dip.

Ian

You're never going to completely eliminate a blip in the dyno curve on our motors. As to whether the Shark fixes it to the extent that the BMW 'Jersey fix' does is what I would like to know.

From the link I posted......

"Don't confuse this normal behavior for all 330 motors with the software problem the ZHP motors had at the same rpm range. Both occur because the DISA valve is doing its job but the ZHP problem was an unintended response to this event. In my case, it was extremely noticeable to the point of severely jerking my passenger's heads around when it cut timing.

The ONLY way to get rid of a slight dip @ 4k rpm is to remove the stock dual resonance intake manifold. The intake runners switch over at 4k rpm and there will ALWAYS be a slight dip in power at this point. All 330s do this, not just the ZHPs. The ZHPs did have a software problem that caused the DME to "hear" the DISA valve making noise during the intake runner transition which was mistaken for knock causing the DME to pull significant timing. This was the power dip those of us that experienced this with our ZHPs felt. I had the problem. I had my DME sent to NJ and my problem was solved. Have you put your car on a dyno since getting your 4k rpm dip fixed? I can guarantee you that even after the "4k rpm fix" there is still going to be a slight dip at 4000 rpm - I challenge you to provide a dyno of a stock 330 that doesn't have a slight dip at 4000 rpm."

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7872349&postcount=94

Barry

[kaboom]

Dw, I wasn't and wouldn't question your observations. I just think there is more going on here. Your testimony is why I'll be purchasing the shark.

Does anyone know if the disa uses a switching valve or a pulse width modulated solenoid? Is it two positions or infinite, like vanos?

Ian

[danewilson77]

Two positions...open or shut....opens at 3750rpm's...

[hillhucker]

Hey guys...taking delivery of my zhp probably next week. Coming from a 2008 STi. I've been reading up on the zhp and the small fixes, which lead me to this thread. I noticed in the warranty history the dealer gave me from the pre inspection i had them perform this service performed on the car.

Service date: 11/12/2005, Mileage: 31,322
Defect code: 0012100200 SIB #12-13-05 RECALL 05E-A01 BREMI IGN COILS REPLACEMENT
Defect code: 1214151100 Component, DME control unit occasional failure

Does this look like this has already been corrected on my zhp? I think the ign coil recall is a separate issue

[Crickett]

Welcome to the Family, hillhucker, & congrats on your ride! Be sure to tell us all about yourself in the New Members (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?9-New-Members) section!

I would hazard a guess that if they did anything to repair/replace the DME that you would have the updated software with the fix. Your first drive should tell you much more, though. That is, if you can focus on anything but being in motoring ecstasy! :biggrin

[MrMaico]

Going by that date (Nov 05) I would have to say no, it probably doesn't have the software to cure the 4000 rpm power dip or the one (latest software) that cured my 2800-3000 rpm miss. I believe that there should be some mention of it having been sent out (to NJ) for the 4000 dip fix. And the other update was for a problem that surfaced on cars after the O2 sensors got older so this probably wasn't even known about that long ago. But this is all just a guess based on limited info. That second one I've never seen mention of before.

Barry



Hey guys...taking delivery of my zhp probably next week. Coming from a 2008 STi. I've been reading up on the zhp and the small fixes, which lead me to this thread. I noticed in the warranty history the dealer gave me from the pre inspection i had them perform this service performed on the car.

Service date: 11/12/2005, Mileage: 31,322
Defect code: 0012100200 SIB #12-13-05 RECALL 05E-A01 BREMI IGN COILS REPLACEMENT
Defect code: 1214151100 Component, DME control unit occasional failure

Does this look like this has already been corrected on my zhp? I think the ign coil recall is a separate issue

[hillhucker]

The second Defect code I believe means the DME was either replaced or fixed. I guess i don't follow why the Nov 2005 service date would rule it out since the last SI B was released in Sept 2005. It seemed like a good correlation, but that of course means nothing solid. I'll just see how she drives.

[hillhucker]

Thanks man i will


Welcome to the Family, hillhucker, & congrats on your ride! Be sure to tell us all about yourself in the New Members (http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?9-New-Members) section!

I would hazard a guess that if they did anything to repair/replace the DME that you would have the updated software with the fix. Your first drive should tell you much more, though. That is, if you can focus on anything but being in motoring ecstasy! :biggrin

[Bimmer37]

So I hate to bump old threads but has anyone had this taken care of by their dealers in-house or at their indy? Ive been quoted at $400 by my dealer to have this done and that doesnt include a free loaner.

[Marcus-SanDiego]

No problem on bumping an old thread. Our site hasn't been around that long, so "old" is a relative term. No worries.

[mimalmo]

Dealer fixed mine while it was still under warranty

[Bimmer37]

Marcus did you ever take your car into your SD indie? If so what did you find out? I'm in Los Angeles but am willing to make the drive down to SD for the update if its possible.

[Hornung418]

I wonder if Dane will ever dyno his car...I know he's busy being the shizz and all...but he's been teasing us for 5 months now. A bit much if you ask me :shifty

What I've found is that the software update fixes the pronounced dip at 4k by pushing more fuel to overcome the Anti-knock Sensors from over correcting.

[danewilson77]

I wonder if Dane will ever dyno his car...I know he's busy being the shizz and all...but he's been teasing us for 5 months now. A bit much if you ask me :shifty

What I've found is that the software update fixes the pronounced dip at 4k by pushing more fuel to overcome the Anti-knock Sensors from over correcting.

I have said that I will dyno after doing the VANOS. Only said it three times. I guess I could PM you on a weekly basis. :)

[Hornung418]

Shit! I forgot you still have to do that for this one :( My Bad. I need to dyno again as well...As I first dyno'd with busted seals.

[danewilson77]

No worries...my lil college horticulterist!

I just want the car to pull as it should for the dyno.

[SoCalZman]

I am just curious to see if anyone else has had BMW fix their 4k rpm dip since 2011. I have been getting on my car harder lately and have noticed this dip a few times. Quite annoying. I have thought I escaped this issue but I guess not. I dont think it has to do with my new DISA I put in recently (or maybe it does, working too well!).

[danewilson77]

There's always this, to add to your knowledge.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?6885-Quiet-Moments.....with-Jim-Conforti-Addressal-of-the-4k-Power-Dip&highlight=quiet

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[derbo]

I am just curious to see if anyone else has had BMW fix their 4k rpm dip since 2011. I have been getting on my car harder lately and have noticed this dip a few times. Quite annoying. I have thought I escaped this issue but I guess not. I dont think it has to do with my new DISA I put in recently (or maybe it does, working too well!).

I had it done. Pic is also in one of the replies in there that Dane posted.

https://img.skitch.com/20120509-py99xqaaxmyrg141f344247tjh.png

[danewilson77]

Is the dip absolutely always gone now derbo?

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[SoCalZman]

I had it done. Pic is also in one of the replies in there that Dane posted.

Yeah what has your experience been since then? You say in Danes thread that the fix causes your DISA to be open all the time now. Is that really the case?

If so, doesn't that mean you are losing low end torque? I though the point of the DISA was to aid in low end engine performance. Not sure I want the fix if it defeats the DISA.

[derbo]

Is the dip absolutely always gone now derbo?

The friendliest forum on the planet.


Honestly I cannot really tell. Since I'm used to faster cars and their monstrous torque/hp, I can't really say for sure its fully gone but it definitely doesn't feel like a dead spot anymore.

I think what happen is BMWNA turned off my DISA. I concluded this because we did some analysis with 4 ZHPs when I was at the dealership.

2 non-PUMA updated ZHPs
2 PUMA updated ZHPs.

The non-PUMA updated ZHPs showed their DISA actively close during startup and idling. When revving, the DISA moved and opened. DISA function test showed no problem closing and opening the valve.

The PUMA updated ZHPs showed their DISA valves to do nothing during startup or idling. When revving, the DISA valve did not move either. DISA function test shows no problem closing and opening the valve.

Granted it was a small sample size but I am led to believe that either BMWNA forced the DISA valve to be open permanently or it has new functions that did not allow the DISA to operate during stationary reviving.

Either way, my guess is the DISA no longer functions and remains permanently open. A loss of low-end torque at the sacrifice of no dip. I think I would need a few more ZHPs to test this case but I would probably need a Dyno or a GT1 running while someone drove around.

[derbo]

Yeah what has your experience been since then? You say in Danes thread that the fix causes your DISA to be open all the time now. Is that really the case?

If so, doesn't that mean you are losing low end torque? I though the point of the DISA was to aid in low end engine performance. Not sure I want the fix if it defeats the DISA.



It's possible. I have no real immediate proof beyond the mundane test I manage to do on 4 ZHPs at the dealer. Only real way to know for sure the DISA is working is to monitor while driving the car. I would need the laptop connected and set to read the DISA valve status (if there is even a realtime one available.)


Honestly the 330i feels slow to me so I can't really say the "lack" of low end was noticeable. To be fair, it probably has a lot more torque than the M3 has under 3K RPM.

[SoCalZman]

Hmm. Interesting info, thanks. Wish there was a way to test the DISA while in motion like you proposed.

The ZHP is all I have so it doesn't feel slow to me :-). Having said that, I would rather keep my DISA functioning since I spend most of my time below 4k rpm

If you ever figure something out and need a "control" car without the fix we can use mine.

[gmurphy]

Dinan software got rid of my dip


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[danewilson77]

Dinan software got rid of my dip


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:rofl

[gmurphy]

:rofl

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/zuna4e9u.jpg


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[danewilson77]

Killing me dood.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[gmurphy]

Killing me dood.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

#DinanDifference hahaha ;) :rofl


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[derbo]

Hmm. Interesting info, thanks. Wish there was a way to test the DISA while in motion like you proposed.

The ZHP is all I have so it doesn't feel slow to me :-). Having said that, I would rather keep my DISA functioning since I spend most of my time below 4k rpm

If you ever figure something out and need a "control" car without the fix we can use mine.

When I plug in my car next time I'll look through GT1 for Disa monitoring.


Sent from my iPad

[danewilson77]

Hard for me to believe that DINAN found the "ever so elusive" fix, while some other "very smart people" haven't.

Not doubting you, just sayin.

[gmurphy]

Hard for me to believe that DINAN found the "ever so elusive" fix, while some other "very smart people" haven't.

Not doubting you, just sayin.

You can come drive my car ;). My car use to have a very noticeable dip around 4k, you could feel it with your arse! Now you really don't feel anything at all. I assume Dinan had updated/designed the software to work with the newest E46 DME software. Or they updated it when BMW did. I'm interested to hear if JOOP has the dip.


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[derbo]

Hard for me to believe that DINAN found the "ever so elusive" fix, while some other "very smart people" haven't.

Not doubting you, just sayin.

Turning off the DISA would eliminate the dip we feel, but it means the whole lowend would drop too LOL

[SoCalZman]

When I plug in my car next time I'll look through GT1 for Disa monitoring.


Sent from my iPad

Sounds good. Fingers crossed it will be that easy.

[danewilson77]

I can do it cheaper than DINAN by just unplugging it.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[SoCalZman]

Hah. You want to try that experiment Dane?

[danewilson77]

Sure. It's not going to hurt anything. I think it fails open though, so low end torque won't be there.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[QC_ZHP]

I'd love to hear someone's impression without the DISA. There was a guy on e46f who swapped an M50 manifold on his M54 which ultimately led to a DISA delete. He gained 10+hp and lost around 7ft/lbs peak torque between the 2.5-4k range. Obviously would be great for a track car, but I wonder how noticeable it would be on the street.

[SoCalZman]

Right. We are wondering if having the DISA open will a) lose noticeable amount of low end torque and b) eliminate the 4k dip.

I would try myself but my car is in storage as it is most of the time.

[gmurphy]

I can do it cheaper than DINAN by just unplugging it.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

I would rather have a working DISA lolz. And what's up with everyone saying Dinan is expensive. The tune isn't anymore then any of the others available :dunno. Anyway if anyone else has the tune please comment to see if you can still feel the power dip.... Cause I can't.


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[Avetiso]

Dinan software got rid of my dip


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Troll inbound. :rofl

[gmurphy]

Troll inbound. :rofl

They see me trolling.... Dane and you hating... I'll tell you what this software does without being too wordy...

:rofl


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[derbo]

Sure. It's not going to hurt anything. I think it fails open though, so low end torque won't be there.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

I thought it was actually closed on low-end to allow it to use the long runners for better torque.

[SoCalZman]

That is true. It closes when you start the car and at lower rpms. If unplugging it gets rid of the 4k dip that will be interesting. Then if we can figure out if yours stays open due to the fix, then we might conclude thats what the "fix" does to get rid of the dip.

[QC_ZHP]

I think I've figured out the cure for the dip......s54 swap :ninja

[Avetiso]

They see me trolling.... Dane and you hating... I'll tell you what this software does without being too wordy...

:rofl


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#dinannerdy

[derbo]

That is true. It closes when you start the car and at lower rpms. If unplugging it gets rid of the 4k dip that will be interesting. Then if we can figure out if yours stays open due to the fix, then we might conclude thats what the "fix" does to get rid of the dip.

Mine doesn't close on startup. With no actual change to short runners, you will definitely never feel the dip hahah



I think I've figured out the cure for the dip......s54 swap :ninja

This is the true solution but you lose alot of low end in the process too ;)

[gmurphy]

#dinannerdy

+1


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[johnrando]

I would rather have a working DISA lolz. And what's up with everyone saying Dinan is expensive. The tune isn't anymore then any of the others available :dunno. Anyway if anyone else has the tune please comment to see if you can still feel the power dip.... Cause I can't.


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I think it used to be way more. They reset their tune prices later than the others.

[gmurphy]

I think it used to be way more. They reset their tune prices later than the others.

Yes but they have been the same price for quite some time now and it's really inexpensive when compared to some others. Just saying. Plus free software updates for life! (Not that I expect them to release any lol)


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[danewilson77]

Gary,

Get it dyno'd. Please post when completed.

Thank you.

[gmurphy]

Gary,

Get it dyno'd. Please post when completed.

Thank you.

Sounds good! I have a treadmill so it's like the same thing..


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