ZHP flip?

[ecrabb]

Sorry if this is long. It's worth of a story.

OK, so I was talking to a guy in my office last week, and cars come up, then BMW, I show him a photo of my car, and he tells me he and his wife have an old BMW, too and theirs is very similar. "Oh, really?," I say assuming he just means it's also an E46.

He continues, "Yeah it's a 2000, two-door, and the wheels look exactly like yours." It's clear he's not really a BMW guy or even a car guy, so I figure it has some aftermarket wheels on it that just look like our style 135s. He tells me it was his wife's car, that they don't drive it anymore and that they just want to get rid of it. He asks if I'd be interested in buying it, tells me they're only asking $2000, but that he'd go $1800 if I wanted it. I asked about condition and mileage, he tells me it has 160,000 miles on it, and that he'll bring pictures next week.

Fast forward to half an hour ago. He walks into my office and says he has pics and whips his phone out. No. Friggin. Way. It's a ZHP coupe. Black with natural brown. Two-tone black and NB door panels. Style 135s. Automatic. Apparently, it's been sitting idle in a garage for three years since they had kids and the wife got a more kid-friendly car. He said it got driven about a year ago when it went across town from one garage to another for a move and was fine. From his photos, it may be a little rough around the edges, think "urban". It's a little hard to tell because it's dirty and dusty like a barn find. Front bumper looks rough. Aftermarket carbon fiber hood. Not sure about the interior. He said he thinks all it needs is a battery to be drivable.

So, immediately my gears started turning. I could buy this, spend a few weeks wrenching on it, play with paint correction, swap out a few parts and get some experience wrenching on an E46 without working on my own car, then turn it over to some local enthusiast for a reasonable profit. Assuming there's nothing major wrong with the car, what's a 160k-mile 2000 ZHP coupe worth? I'm thinking it'd be worth a weekend or two of work if I could net a grand or two and some experience.

Too risky for a flip, or is the price low enough almost not to matter? I could almost certainly get my money back out of it unless the motor or tranny died, right? The only other thing that came to mind was that I know with the earlier cars, the subframe was a concern.

All opinions welcome.

I'll post a couple of pics once I get them.

I waited patiently to buy a ZHP for almost five years, hardly ever saw them, finally bought one, and then another just drops into my lap. Life sure can be strange.

Cheers,
SC

[Johnmadd]

The zhp package wasn't available until 2003. I would still jump on it if no other reason than to have it be a dd and as you upgrade your zhp with parts and the other car can get the hand me down parts.

[cakM3]

The zhp package wasn't available until 2003. I would still jump on it if no other reason than to have it be a dd and as you upgrade your zhp with parts and the other car can get the hand me down parts.

+1 :thumbsup

[az3579]

The zhp package wasn't available until 2003. I would still jump on it if no other reason than to have it be a dd and as you upgrade your zhp with parts and the other car can get the hand me down parts.


There were no ZHP coupes 'till 2004, so either it's not a ZHP or he got the model year wrong. Either way, it sounds like a flip opportunity to me!
At a minimum it's going to need all fluids changed, and possibly tires as well (probably flat spotted by now).

[ecrabb]

I'm probably more interested in using it as a project and as fun entertainment to see how fast I can clean up and flip a car (as in less than a month) than I am daily-driving it. But, that could be a fun option - at least for awhile. Garage space is limited, too but I do have a neighbor that may let me rent his short term so as not to have a car in various states of condition sitting out on the street.

OK, yeah - I thought the year sounded weird, but I looked at the list here and there were a couple of cars on there, but I suppose they're just not ZHPs or even 330's. I'll have him send me the VIN and decode to see what to make of it.

I'd hate to have to buy new tires as that would really screw the budget, but I suppose I can probably find something much cheaper than I'd put on my own car. Maybe some nice used tires or all-seasons or something.

OK, so it's probably a 325 that somebody put style 135's and an M-Tech bumper on. But, the interior, too... Maybe he's wrong about the year. I'll get the VIN.

What would be funny is if the style 135's were in better shape than mine and I could swap. ;)

SC

[Johnmadd]

It could still be a 330i. You can flip it for a profit for sure if you take care of the minor stuff and give it a good detail.

[ELCID86]

+1


Thumbs, iPhone, TaT.

[az3579]

I'm probably more interested in using it as a project and as fun entertainment to see how fast I can clean up and flip a car (as in less than a month) than I am daily-driving it. But, that could be a fun option - at least for awhile. Garage space is limited, too but I do have a neighbor that may let me rent his short term so as not to have a car in various states of condition sitting out on the street.

OK, yeah - I thought the year sounded weird, but I looked at the list here and there were a couple of cars on there, but I suppose they're just not ZHPs or even 330's. I'll have him send me the VIN and decode to see what to make of it.

I'd hate to have to buy new tires as that would really screw the budget, but I suppose I can probably find something much cheaper than I'd put on my own car. Maybe some nice used tires or all-seasons or something.

OK, so it's probably a 325 that somebody put style 135's and an M-Tech bumper on. But, the interior, too... Maybe he's wrong about the year. I'll get the VIN.

What would be funny is if the style 135's were in better shape than mine and I could swap. ;)

SC


It could still be a 330i. You can flip it for a profit for sure if you take care of the minor stuff and give it a good detail.


The VIN is needed. If it's a 2000, then it's either a 323Ci or a 328Ci, which will reduce the amount of money you get for the car. The 325/330 came out in 2001+ are are generally more valuable.

[fredo]

I wanted to flip a car some time ago. But the tax ($500) stopped me. Granted, it was not a very good deal as you describe.

[ecrabb]

The VIN is needed. If it's a 2000, then it's either a 323Ci or a 328Ci, which will reduce the amount of money you get for the car. The 325/330 came out in 2001+ are are generally more valuable.
Yep. I noticed that in my research. I'm hoping he's wrong about the year and that it's an '01 - a 330 ideally. If it's a 323, I'll probably pass. If it's a 328, I'll consider it carefully. I'm not too worried about anything but subframe, so I'll read up on that once I found out what the car actually is so if I decided to go look at it, I'll know what I'm doing.

He just sent me pics. Let me post. It's interesting.

SC

[ecrabb]

I wanted to flip a car some time ago. But the tax ($500) stopped me. Granted, it was not a very good deal as you describe.

I'm not sure about this deal at this point, either. Wait until you see the pics.

Re the taxes, the good thing is I'm only looking at about $180 for tax, title, and registration. It's old and cheap. I pay a hair less than 7% tax, so at $1800, that's only $125. The rest is title and annual registration.

SC

[NoVAphotog]

I'm not sure about this deal at this point, either. Wait until you see the pics.

Re the taxes, the good thing is I'm only looking at about $180 for tax, title, and registration. It's old and cheap. I pay a hair less than 7% tax, so at $1800, that's only $125. The rest is title and annual registration.

SC

The whole thing sounds sketchy to me, not in a bad way on your colleague's part or anything, but just in the hoops I'm reading here. It'd be one thing if they guy truly "didn't know what he had" and had a ZHP sitting in the garage for 3+ years. But some random 3xx early E46 with subframe issues, recalls probably not completed, etc, etc, etc doesn't sound like a "flip" and more like a "moneypit" to me.

[slater]

in for pics and VIN - that will make things more clear.

peter

[ecrabb]

Here we go...

Not a ZHP, but still interesting nonetheless. M steering wheel, M Style 135's, M-tech side skirts that look factory.

My guess is it's a 328Ci that somebody put a steering wheel, wheels, and aero kit on after the ZHP came out to make it look like a ZHP. That cheesy aftermarket hood, though. Yikes. A local guy has an E46 hood for $100 with some corner damage, but by the time I fixed and painted the hood, it blows the budget. So, the cheesy one would have to stay unless there's a junkyard hood out there.

It definitely needs a good cleaning. Looks like a whole weekend worth. Hard to tell what kind of condition the paint is in covered in dust. Needs a passenger-side door moulding. Needs the clips that hold the bumper on.

I think we're slowly moving from something that was "hidden jewel to restore and flip'ish" to something a little more "don't want it in my driveway'ish". ;) But, I'm keeping an open mind. He's sending me the VIN tomorrow and all will be revealed.

SC



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[ecrabb]

The whole thing sounds sketchy to me, not in a bad way on your colleague's part or anything, but just in the hoops I'm reading here. It'd be one thing if they guy truly "didn't know what he had" and had a ZHP sitting in the garage for 3+ years. But some random 3xx early E46 with subframe issues, recalls probably not completed, etc, etc, etc doesn't sound like a "flip" and more like a "moneypit" to me.

Can't disagree with any of that. Probably will pass, but will at least run the VIN and see what we're looking at.

He did say it was his wife's car and that all the maintenance was done at the stealer. That doesn't necessarily mean the maintenance was done on time or when needed, but it's more info than you'd get at a used car dealer.

SC

[ecrabb]

Funny thing is, I think the Alcantera on the steering wheel in this 160k-mile 2000 hooptie might be in better shape than my clean '04 with 42k miles on it. ;)

SC

[ecrabb]

LOLs. The room goes quiet. ;-)

SC

[NoVAphotog]

Here we go...

Not a ZHP, but still interesting nonetheless. M steering wheel, M Style 135's, M-tech side skirts that look factory.

My guess is it's a 328Ci that somebody put a steering wheel, wheels, and aero kit on after the ZHP came out to make it look like a ZHP. That cheesy aftermarket hood, though. Yikes. A local guy has an E46 hood for $100 with some corner damage, but by the time I fixed and painted the hood, it blows the budget. So, the cheesy one would have to stay unless there's a junkyard hood out there.

It definitely needs a good cleaning. Looks like a whole weekend worth. Hard to tell what kind of condition the paint is in covered in dust. Needs a passenger-side door moulding. Needs the clips that hold the bumper on.

I think we're slowly moving from something that was "hidden jewel to restore and flip'ish" to something a little more "don't want it in my driveway'ish". ;) But, I'm keeping an open mind. He's sending me the VIN tomorrow and all will be revealed.

SC



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That thing is f**ked...I would bag it.

[NoVAphotog]

Sorry but when I see TOYS and random objects being stored on a car...I get a little heated. How does one just "keep that around?"

[ecrabb]

That thing is f**ked...I would bag it.
That's my inclination. Still curious to see what VIN says, but yeah...


Sorry but when I see TOYS and random objects being stored on a car...I get a little heated. How does one just "keep that around?"
Oh, I totally agree. It's super-maddening. What, you can't even be bothered to throw an old blanket or something on it if you're going to use it as a shelf? Lord.

How do you just keep it around? I know how. People have big ideas, but no follow-through. It's not worth much, and they probably hoped to clean it up and sell it for "good money", then it just sat. And sat. And sat. They probably thought, "Oh, we'll clean it up in a few months when we have a little more money," but that day never came. Then, years went by.

I told him if I bought it, it would be to clean up and resell at a profit. He said he wanted to do it, but just didn't have the time, skills, tools or knowledge. The "time" thing as we all know is a cop-out. I think it's more that he didn't have the interest or initiative.

The thing is, most people just don't have the initiative to do most of the things they want to do, so they never do anything. They coast at work, coast at home, and just generally coast through life. I'm oversimplifying here, but to me, this one thing accounts for much of the difference between the people who retire with some wealth and those who don't, and those that drive an old Hyundai versus those who drive a newer nicer car. 90% of success is how hard a person is willing to work and how often they're willing to go the extra mile.

That said, my "rescue" gene is perking up. Seeing the photos makes me want to rescue it from its abusive situation, clean it up and find it a good home.

SC

[fredo]

One good thing here: the owner stored the car in the garage all this time.

This reminds me of a story about my 1992 Ford Tempo. My co-worker had a similar car (1994). Both were in good condition. One day, she bought a new car and parked the Tempo on her driveway. It sat there 2 years or so. When she tried to start it, it was dead of course. It went to the junk yard afterwards.

And my Tempo was still up and running at that time !

[cakM3]

After looking at those pictures, honestly what Daniel said is what I was thinking. If you get this you will find that you will be required to put in way more work and money that you won't make money trying to flip this car..... I would pass.

[az3579]

Well the color doesn't help too much with identification. It looks like Stahlgrau, which was available on both the 323/328, and on 325/330's. I have a strong feeling that this is 2001+ 325Ci. Natural Brown wasn't available on the pre-01 cars. It's possible it was swapped as well. Considering all the other mods on the car, that is definitely a possibility. I'm sure they bought the car the way it is now.

It definitely has potential though. Probably not as a flip, but as a project car.

[ecrabb]

After looking at those pictures, honestly what Daniel said is what I was thinking. If you get this you will find that you will be required to put in way more work and money that you won't make money trying to flip this car..... I would pass.
That's what my gut is telling me right now. Going to get the VIN and see what happens.


It definitely has potential though. Probably not as a flip, but as a project car.
Agreed. I may end up just posting it to the local BMW enthusiasts' forum to let somebody pick it up as a track car or something. I don't need (or have room) for any long-term projects. It was very tempting when it might have been a ZHP, and still is a little with the M parts, but it's also more than a little risky.

SC

[az3579]

That's what my gut is telling me right now. Going to get the VIN and see what happens.


Agreed. I may end up just posting it to the local BMW enthusiasts' forum to let somebody pick it up as a track car or something. I don't need (or have room) for any long-term projects. It was very tempting when it might have been a ZHP, and still is a little with the M parts, but it's also more than a little risky.

SC


I'd actually seriously be considering it if it was local. A "project" car is not something that's worth shipping in my eyes, so it takes it out of the equation for me. :(

[cakM3]

I'd actually seriously be considering it if it was local. A "project" car is not something that's worth shipping in my eyes, so it takes it out of the equation for me. :(

You're just a sucka for natural brown interior BP :p

[az3579]

You're just a sucka for natural brown interior BP [emoji14]
Price , price, price... This car screams track car, so the NB would probably get sold anyway.

sent from my Droid Turbo

[Johnmadd]

I wonder how much you can get for a full natural brown interior?

[BMWCurves]

If it was in good condition and he started parting out the interior, I'd be interested. That's a down the road mod but a NB interior on my OB coupe would be wonderful :drool

[az3579]

I wonder how much you can get for a full natural brown interior?

If it's in pristine condition, with door panels, a sedan set sells for about $1200. It varies based on condition. I bought mine for $1300 but that included extras... lots of extras.


If it was in good condition and he started parting out the interior, I'd be interested. That's a down the road mod but a NB interior on my OB coupe would be wonderful :drool

I can tell this interior is a little rough. The door panel on the driver's side has some serious scuffing right where the door would be. I see some markings on the rear seats in the pics, and the fronts look alright, but then again; looks can be deceiving. The seats I bought looked pristine in pictures but in person had a fair share of issues. I didn't care though; getting an interior like this is almost like winning the lottery, and my particular circumstances pretty much allowed me to get this interior and break even. :)

[Simmsled]

Could be worth buying to simply part it out.
Interior
Steering wheel
135s

Dunno.

[slater]

If it's in pristine condition, with door panels, a sedan set sells for about $1200. It varies based on condition. I bought mine for $1300 but that included extras... lots of extras.



I can tell this interior is a little rough. The door panel on the driver's side has some serious scuffing right where the door would be. I see some markings on the rear seats in the pics, and the fronts look alright, but then again; looks can be deceiving. The seats I bought looked pristine in pictures but in person had a fair share of issues. I didn't care though; getting an interior like this is almost like winning the lottery, and my particular circumstances pretty much allowed me to get this interior and break even. :)

you can actually see that the plastic seat back on the driver's seat is coming off, or off entirely... or broken?

this car is going to be a time suck. if you've got the time, awesome... if not, move on.

peter

[UdubBadger]

Do it or else I will


GoingHAM mobile

[az3579]

you can actually see that the plastic seat back on the driver's seat is coming off, or off entirely... or broken?

this car is going to be a time suck. if you've got the time, awesome... if not, move on.

peter

Seat back??
I'm talking about the rear door card (even though there's no door, that's all I know it to be called). Look right above where the NB material ends... the black part is all scuffed up pretty badly. Finding a panel like that would be very difficult.

[slater]

21303

BP, check the back of the driver's seat in this pic...

peter

[ecrabb]

I think that's probably sun damage. You can see the plastic seat back and the trim next to the seat belt look identical. The plastic turns chalky after years of sun exposure. It gets so soft, it's literally like chalk or bar soap or something. It's very easy to scratch and damage.

To flip the car, I'd just clean them up. Soap, water, and some steel wool, and you can clean off that tap layer of chalky stuff and re-burnish the plastic.

If it were my own car, or if this interior were going into one of our own cars, then yes - you'd want to replace the pieces, which would indeed probably be pretty difficult.

SC

[Bird-Dog]

Could be worth buying to simply part it out.
Interior
Steering wheel
135s

Dunno.
Parting-out is certainly where the profit is in this car. I'd offer $1,500.

[ecrabb]

Parting-out is certainly where the profit is in this car. I'd offer $1,500.

Yeah, I don't disagree. The 135's, some of the interior, and the steering wheel are probably getting close to a couple grand. Then, there's the engine, trans, and various other odds and ends. OTOH, that's a big time investment to do right, and would take space I don't have. Plus, I'd probably end up sending an E46 chassis to the crusher so I don't think I'd have the heart for a complete part-out.

I think for the price and condition, it would make an excellent candidate for a track car. I don't have the time, space, money, or inclination for such a project, but I have to think somebody might. I'm only an hour from a nice track (http://www.millermotorsportspark.com).

He said he'll send me the VIN this weekend, and then I'll think about whether I'm interested in buying to resell, or whether I'll just help him sell it.

Cheers,
SC

[brettbimmer]

I'm with Seth. Depending on actual condition in person, it looks to me like a good bath and serious vacuum would go a long way toward making her presentable. Yes, you need to be careful with vehicles like this and be sure that the tires are not dry-rotted, , there are no cracks in the windshield, engine and trans health, etc., but she looks to be intact and her body panels as well as NB interior look good too. Personally it's a no-brainer in my book and worth the financial gamble to learn/try it. Worst-case is that you could part it if something really really was wrong with the car. Just my 0.02 but I own three older Bimmers now so I have a disease...:mwah

[cakM3]

Seat back??
I'm talking about the rear door card (even though there's no door, that's all I know it to be called). Look right above where the NB material ends... the black part is all scuffed up pretty badly. Finding a panel like that would be very difficult.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/634/20951366702_413e0fe240_b.jpg

I totally agree with Botond here.... what the heck happened here???

[Johnmadd]

Looks like tape to hold the door seal/trim on.

[ecrabb]

I totally agree with Botond here.... what the heck happened here???

It's Utah. I'm pretty sure it's sun damage. That plastic turns soft and white with enough sun exposure.

SC

[Simmsled]

I've seen that before.
Damned Sasquatch.

I bought a 99 323i for $900 as a DD and am going thru everything.
My experience with it tells me that you may be 3k+ into everything to make it enthusiast level proper, doing everything yourself.
To get it to be an acceptable DD level, 1.5k+.
I knew I'd have fun bringing a tired E46 back to life, and I have. More than anything tho, it is helping me learn the E46 better to take care of my ZHPs.

I'd probably throw out a # like 800 to 1k and go from there.
Especially if you didn't know exactly what u were getting into.

[ecrabb]

Got the VIN and ran it, and as we suspected, it's a 323.

Data for vehicle identification number: WBABM3345YJN81043
Model description: 323CI
Market: USA
Type: BM33
E-Code: E46 (2)
Chassis: Coupé
Steering: links
Doors: 2
Engine: M52/TU - 2,50l (125kW)
Drive: Heckantrieb
Transmission: automatisch
Body Color: Schwarz 2 (668)
Upholstery: Standardleder/hellbeige 2 (arbeitsn (N6HC)
Production date: 23.07.1999
Assembled in: Regensburg

With the condition, mileage and mods, I think it's a perfect car for some enthusiast youngling. Unless I'm missing something, I just don't think there's probably a number that I'd feel comfortable offering him that would give me enough margin to make me want to go to the trouble of cleaning it up to resell.

Unless you guys have a better idea, I think I'll just spread the word and help him sell it. I'll just have done a good deed of helping him clean his garage out and get the car into the hands of some young local BMW enthusiast to put some sweat equity into.

I wish I had a four-car garage. I'd buy it and put a cage and motor and six-speed in it and go racing.

Cheers,
SC

[brettbimmer]

Let's see. Utah...that's close to Maryland, right? :begging

Hopefully someone closer is able to pick her up an resurrect her to her former glory!

[stephenkirsh]

I don't understand why people park a car somewhere and let it fall apart AND depreciate for YEARS. Throwing away money.

Three years ago he could have sold it for $4500, invested in a safe account and be at $5k minimum AND had an actual garage. Now he's looking at at $1500.

[wstr75]

I don't understand why people park a car somewhere and let it fall apart AND depreciate for YEARS. Throwing away money.

Three years ago he could have sold it for $4500, invested in a safe account and be at $5k minimum AND had an actual garage. Now he's looking at at $1500.

Here are some explanations as to why this may have happened. We all know folks like those described in the links below:

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/april-13/why-wait-the-science-behind-procrastination.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914005595

[Oli77]

^ could be something like that, or they have a real good reason that we don't know about.

Maybe the children were conceived in that car and they are having a hard time letting go of it.

I can think of many valid reasons.

Still, I agree, it is wasteful.

[stephenkirsh]

This is just one of 4727394737 examples. I have some friends who had 5 cars and a boat for two people. Only 3 cars worked. The other three items sat wasting in their front yard. Now they got booted out of their rental house and are scrambling to sell them for less than they're worth. No sentimental value.

And trust me, I'm a professional procrastinator lol. My dad, who lurks here, might make an account just to confirm that!

[SwiftyM3]

Just read this whole damn thread and i'm left wondering how this story ended.. Updates?!

[ecrabb]

Sorry for the lack of follow-up on this!

Even though this turned out to be a 323 with M-Tech bits and Style 135s (and not a ZHP), I was still interested in flipping the car. I think it still has great potential for a young kid that wants an inexpensive E46.

But, I posted in a couple of local Facebook groups to see if anybody had an empty garage space I could rent to store a car for a couple of months and came up empty. Then, my wife made it pretty clear she hated the idea, and if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy! So I shelved it for now.

If I had an empty garage stall, I would have gone for it, if for no other reason the fun and experience of the project, and the possibility to make a grand in the process.

The car is still sitting in his garage and will probably still be there in the spring, so...

He only lives 20 minutes or so from me, so what I thought about doing was just saying, "Hey, instead of buying the car from you, how about I spiff up the car and market and sell it for you, and I keep everything over $X. I minimize my risk that way, he doesn't have to sell the car, and I still get to play with the car and make a little pocket money for playing with cars. ;-)

SC