BMW's actively hostile design

[yura]

BMW is intentionally making cars harder and harder to work on. Just look at this example of popping the hood on the i8. Insane!

https://youtu.be/fxe_b2GRwok?t=1m20s

This is why I'll be getting an E46 M3 as my second/summer car in a few years. Nothing newer.

[JB3]

I totally agree about BMW making these harder to work on. This was also a great reason for me to go from my 335i to my ZHP. Couldn't be happier.

[wsmeyer]

I'm highly sceptical that it's really that fragile but I think of it more of a test, if you can't get the hood open without damaging something, just quit right there.

Besides, it takes 3 people to remove the headliner from my X5.

[yura]

I think most people would agree that opening the hood is a little more frequently done than removing a car's headliner. Apples and oranges IMO.

[az3579]

I think most people would agree that opening the hood is a little more frequently done than removing a car's headliner. Apples and oranges IMO.

Opening the hood of an i8 is hardly something a typical i8 owner will ever do, so this is a moot point.

[cakM3]

Opening the hood of an i8 is hardly something a typical i8 owner will ever do, so this is a moot point.

As stated by the BMW Tech in the video... there's no reason for anyone to be under the hood of an i8 unless the car is in the shop. Always the realist....."this is a moot point"...

[BMWCurves]

Opening the hood of an i8 is hardly something a typical i8 owner will ever do, so this is a moot point.

I agree, I think that's probably the norm with most new upper echelon cars. Ferraris often call for an entire engine removal at service intervals. It is sad (to me at least) that new technology that's incorporated into even new entry-level cars can make it more difficult to work on cars by the owners. E.g. something as simple as checking the oil level. I'm pretty sure most modern BMWs don't have a dipstick, only an electronic oil level sensor.

[yura]

Opening the hood of an i8 is hardly something a typical i8 owner will ever do, so this is a moot point.

Today that may be so, but in 15 years these cars will be as accessible to the average Joe as an E46 is today, yet doing DIY work on them will still be nearly impossible. And the hood/i8 issue is just a drop in the bucket.

This is all part of a slow but steady push by manufacturers to force people to go take their cars to the dealers for every minor thing. They want to eliminate not only the DIY guys but also Indy shops that undercut dealers' profits.

[alexandre]

Let's not forget about planned obsolence. If I didn't have the option to do a lot of unnecessary, but welcome maintenance myself, my car would probably be parted out and recycled by now. Cheaper to lease a new one than bend over at the dealer at $130/hr. There is probably a big plan behind the scenes to increase turnover on the long term.

[yura]

Let's not forget about planned obsolence. If I didn't have the option to do a lot of unnecessary, but welcome maintenance myself, my car would probably be parted out and recycled by now. Cheaper to lease a new one than bend over at the dealer at $130/hr. There is probably a big plan behind the scenes to increase turnover on the long term.

Good point. They may very well want the vehicle lifespan to decrease.

[az3579]

You guys are paranoid.
The E46 was as complicated as anything when it came out. Look at where we are now and tell me we haven't figured it out.

Just like anything they've ever made, we'll figure it out. Just the technology has changed, that's all.

[Dave1027]

Saw a review of the i8. The damn thing has synthesized (fake) engine sound that plays through the speakers ! They gotta be kidding. nono

[yura]

You guys are paranoid.
The E46 was as complicated as anything when it came out. Look at where we are now and tell me we haven't figured it out.

Just like anything they've ever made, we'll figure it out. Just the technology has changed, that's all.

The difference is in electronics. e46 electronics are a joke. The new cars coming out today? Not so much. The chances of anyone really figuring the cars' electronics out without having the original source code (which will obviously never be released) is slim to none.

And the manufacturers are all pushing legislation to make modifying your vehicle's electronics illegal, claiming they only lease it to you (for the life of the car), while they still own it. It's an ongoing battle and one that doesn't look good for consumers. What if something as simple as resetting the TPMS suddenly falls under that illegal modifying, and requires a visit to the dealer?

[yura]

Saw a review of the i8. The damn thing has synthesized (fake) engine sound that plays through the speakers ! They gotta be kidding. nono

That's present in many modern cars. I remember reading about that for the new~ish 5 series a few years ago. Thanks, but no thanks.

[flyride]

Well all these new turbo cars have lost their intake and exhaust note, they all sound like dog farts. You can't do much with a 1.3L 3-cylinder engine either. They have to find some way to make us buy them, might as well sound good.


That's present in many modern cars. I remember reading about that for the new~ish 5 series a few years ago. Thanks, but no thanks.

[terraphantm]

You guys are paranoid.
The E46 was as complicated as anything when it came out. Look at where we are now and tell me we haven't figured it out.

Just like anything they've ever made, we'll figure it out. Just the technology has changed, that's all.

It really wasn't. The e46 is almost identical to the e36 for most jobs

[yura]

Well all these new turbo cars have lost their intake and exhaust note, they all sound like dog farts. You can't do much with a 1.3L 3-cylinder engine either. They have to find some way to make us buy them, might as well sound good.

In that case I want to be able to control the pitch and tone of the sound coming through the speakers. Mostly because I want to drive a jet plane sounding car on Mondays, and a V12 Lamborghini sounding car on Tuesdays.

[rkneeshaw]

The exhaust note thing through the speakers is in the m4 too. I gotta say, its extremely gimmicky and a big let down to me that BMW is doing that. It's like those boy racers that would wire up a speaker with the sound of a blow off valve under their hood so it sounded like they had a turbo.

[Sockethead]

The DME in new BMWs is encrypted so modifying anything in the DME is impossible... At least until someone breaks the encryption.

[JB3]

The DME in new BMWs is encrypted so modifying anything in the DME is impossible... At least until someone breaks the encryption.
There will come a point where this will not be possible/practical. We are probably already there, but I haven't researched.

Sent from my OnePlus One.* Regularly foiled by autocorrect. But duck it.

[ecrabb]

Regarding the fake engine sounds getting piped into the audio system, I can see both sides of this. On one hand, it is a bunch of crap. BMW is clearly taking the brand upscale and getting more luxury-oriented and less performance/enthusiast-oriented. On the other hand, and in BMW's defense, market forces and government fuel economy and government safety standards really are pushing them to make quieter, less-connected cars. Everything is getting more efficient and quieter, so it's missing some of the audible, tactile goodness we all love.

Really, though - unless you're talking about a few high-horsepower bruisers that can cut through the insulation, or one of a couple of enthusiast-specific cars (BRZ/FR-S, WRX, etc.) almost all new cars have gotten quiet, soft and boring on some level - even when some of them are actually pretty fast. Active suspension, traction control, stability control, aero, composites... There's a lot of science in cars now that didn't even really exist in the marketplace thirty years ago. That stuff is all a double-edged sword. That's one of the reasons I love the E46... There's just enough technology. It's modern enough to have good fuel economy, good safety features like airbags and active restraints, DSC, ABS, plenty of traction, and a decent amount of HP (especially given displacement)... I'm like Goldilocks... The E46is juuuuust right.

As for movability and repairability, I'm not sure if they're actively hostile as much as that's just the way the industry is moving. I don't like it, but I understand why the manufacturers (it certainly isn't just BMW) are doing it.

That said, the encryption will be cracked, and the cars will be modded. The question is, other than a few novelty items like locking and lights and such, I'm wondering how much anybody will really want to mod.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the value of a car like the i8 in ten years. If it's difficult to maintain and parts are horrendously expensive, the cars will be extraordinarily cheap, but relatively scarcity may prop the values up.

SC

[stephenkirsh]

I think everybody needs to take two steps back and look at the auto industry as a whole. This isn't just bmw. It's everybody.

[ecrabb]

I think everybody needs to take two steps back and look at the auto industry as a whole. This isn't just bmw. It's everybody.

+1.

SC

[yura]

I think everybody needs to take two steps back and look at the auto industry as a whole. This isn't just bmw. It's everybody.

Oh for sure. Sad, but that's how things are looking for all modern cars.

[terraphantm]

There will come a point where this will not be possible/practical. We are probably already there, but I haven't researched.

Sent from my OnePlus One.* Regularly foiled by autocorrect. But duck it.

It's already impossible to brute force things like a 1024-bit RSA encryption. Until quantum computers at least.

So what has to be done is finding a flaw in how the signature checks are performed, much like what is done to jailbreak iPhones, mod game consoles, etc

[ELCID86]

I think everybody needs to take two steps back and look at the auto industry as a whole. This isn't just bmw. It's everybody.

Some cars allow for firmware updates via SD/USB drive.


Thumbs, iPhone, Tapatalk.

[Fried_Chicken]

This is an opportunity for Hyundai and others to sneak in. I'm working on a 2005 S-Class right now, this has been going on for a while. Just an example, to update the software in the car requires a $20k/year computer system that phones home to Germany. During the update process the car draws 180 amps (!!!) and make goddamn sure you can feed those 180 amps for the duration of the update or else you can really go cry in a corner.

[ecrabb]

This is an opportunity for Hyundai and others to sneak in. I'm working on a 2005 S-Class right now, this has been going on for a while. Just an example, to update the software in the car requires a $20k/year computer system that phones home to Germany. During the update process the car draws 180 amps (!!!) and make goddamn sure you can feed those 180 amps for the duration of the update or else you can really go cry in a corner.

Judas priest... That's over 2000 watts. You can't even use a normal 15A house circuit to feed that thing, then. You'd need at least a 20A plug/circuit like you usually see for built-in vacuums.

See, this was my point. It's not just BMW. Though, I do have to say the BMW, Merc, and Audi engineers all seem to excel at engineering stuff that's REALLY difficult or expensive to fix, or at least tricky - and that's certainly nothing new.

SC

[Simmsled]

Judas priest... That's over 2000 watts. You can't even use a normal 15A house circuit to feed that thing, then. You'd need at least a 20A plug/circuit like you usually see for built-in vacuums.

See, this was my point. It's not just BMW. Though, I do have to say the BMW, Merc, and Audi engineers all seem to excel at engineering stuff that's REALLY difficult or expensive to fix, or at least tricky - and that's certainly nothing new.

SC

What in the name of Doc Brown do you need 180 amps for to update the computer?!?

[yura]

What in the name of Doc Brown do you need 180 amps for to update the computer?!?

I'd imagine that you don't, but the car is intentionally set up to draw that much current and "discard" it prior to allowing the (actually needed) couple amps to the ECU for update. In other words, intentionally done to ensure no one but the dealers can work on the cars.

[az3579]

In other words, intentionally done to ensure no one but the dealers can work on the cars.

No.

[yura]

No.

So what's the reason for drawing so much current then?

// edit - just remembered about a thread on the local BMW forum where someone was looking for a 10 amps battery charger because he wanted to update his ECU software (on either an E30 or E36 IIRC) and needed a constant 10 amp for a couple hours. Again, a bizarre requirement.

[az3579]

// edit - just remembered about a thread on the local BMW forum where someone was looking for a 10 amps battery charger because he wanted to update his ECU software (on either an E30 or E36 IIRC) and needed a constant 10 amp for a couple hours. Again, a bizarre requirement.

Not a bizarre requirement. Our electronics are very sensitive to voltage fluctuation while they're being programmed. They need to get sufficient power so that they don't end up getting bricked or have corrupted data on the EEPROMs.

[yura]

Not a bizarre requirement. Our electronics are very sensitive to voltage fluctuation while they're being programmed. They need to get sufficient power so that they don't end up getting bricked or have corrupted data on the EEPROMs.

I'm not convinced. I think average smartphone is about a hundred times more technologically advanced and complicated than anything found in an E46, and it doesn't need 180amps of current and two hours of time for a software update. There's something else going on with these car updates. Perhaps they have really slow interfaces for communication/software updates, and that can explain the time, but not the current draw.

[Fried_Chicken]

I'm not convinced. I think average smartphone is about a hundred times more technologically advanced and complicated than anything found in an E46, and it doesn't need 180amps of current and two hours of time for a software update. There's something else going on with these car updates. Perhaps they have really slow interfaces for communication/software updates, and that can explain the time, but not the current draw.

The electronic fan did run at full speed, but this car is simply full of examples of mercedes making self repair incredibly difficult and needlessly complicated.

The worst offender I've found so far working on this car is the transmission. Mercedes came up with a brilliant "sealed for life" transmission, and in their infinite hubris decided not to include a dipstick or dipstick tube. They later found out this was bullshit and that the transmission did in fact need it's oil replaced at ~40k miles. They also found out that another quart of oil would be a good idea.

I don't even know where to begin to describe the insanity of these decision.
First, the oil level level is controlled using a sort of offset runoff thing (think hoover dam). In order to drain the oil, a special tool is required to pop out the offset stick over the transmission pan drain whole. Then the transmission pan must be removed (gasket replaced), and the offset tube put back into place.

It is imperative that you measure the amount of oil removed in this process, as that is what you will refill once you've drained the transmission. Then you raise the car up, and refill the transmission with the amount of oil you removed plus 1 liter. Now mercedes realized halfway that they needed an extra quart in their brilliant "sealed for life" transmission. In order to achieve the new oil level, the transmission pan has to be replaced with a new redesigned model.

Anyway, now in order to refill the transmission from the bottom (as must be done as there is no dipstick or dipstick tube) mercedes literally invented some pneumatically powered transmission refill machine to pump oil up into the transmission.

Now comes the tricky part. The car must be raised and completely level, and the oil temperature must read exactly 45°C (which can be measured using the special mercedes computer). Once this is done, with the engine running, and the car on a completely level lift, the transmission can be drained until the proper oil level is achieved.


This is the biggest load of horse shit it has been my misfortune to encounter when working on cars, and there is absolutely no need for it.

*Furthermore* the torque converter has no drain plug. This means that in order to properly change all 9 liters of transmission fluid requires at least two trips to the mechanic.


Want more bullshit? The engine has 2 spark plugs per cylinder (like on an airplane engine), and two spark plug wires (only 8 coils). Therefore the engine takes 16 platinum spark plugs just for a spark plug change. There is however an argument to be made for having two spark plugs, as it does pay for itself over the life of the vehicle in increased fuel economy assuming gas is ~$4 per gallon.

[yura]

Hahahaah. Oh that was funny to read (in a sad kind of way).

Did you know that the book time to replace the battery on my '06 ML350 is 2.5 hours? And requires cutting carpet and removing a half dozen panels under the front passenger seat? The job took me 30 mins in the parking lot of Canadian Tire, but still...

[JupiterBMW]

I have to admit, I'm kind of chuckling at this post... On one tab, I have this thread open, and on the next tab, I have an 18 page thread open about a guy that is making (and selling) custom mods for the F10 M5... The cars will always be modded, people will always figure out the software... All it takes is money, and time...

I admit, the labor costs and ways that they suck you in to the dealer are a little ridiculous, but it is the way of the future. The good news, as long as there is gasoline, you can continue to drive your E46... Or older or newer BMW... :thumbsup

[JupiterBMW]

I have to admit, I'm kind of chuckling at this post... On one tab, I have this thread open, and on the next tab, I have an 18 page thread open about a guy that is making (and selling) custom mods for the F10 M5... The cars will always be modded, people will always figure out the software... All it takes is money, and time...

I admit, the labor costs and ways that they suck you in to the dealer are a little ridiculous, but it is the way of the future. The good news, as long as there is gasoline, you can continue to drive your E46... Or older or newer BMW... :thumbsup

[san]

I'm not convinced. I think average smartphone is about a hundred times more technologically advanced and complicated than anything found in an E46, and it doesn't need 180amps of current and two hours of time for a software update. There's something else going on with these car updates. Perhaps they have really slow interfaces for communication/software updates, and that can explain the time, but not the current draw.

I don't we can compare a smartphone to a car computer, the ecu and every other chip is use the car has to withstand a lot more harsher environment than a smart phone does... Also they are very slow as u said because honestly they don't need it to be much faster and also it's processing capability is really low as far as I know... They can certainly make chips that run faster but that would increase the cost and we are the ones who end up paying for it... And it is not very often that we update the software on our cars, so it would not be at the top of the priority list to make it update faster...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bird-Dog]

LOL - Makes ya' wonder if car guys 100 years ago thought electric starters and electric lights were being "hostile" b/c it made cars more complicated to work on.

I'm not an industry insider, but I'd be willing to bet that costs of technician training, equipment and procedure development involved in new technologies far outweighs any considerations of forcibly ensuring customers will use dealership service departments. Think about it. BMW AG's foremost concerns are product marketability and the manufacturing process. Service is a cost to corporate, not a revenue generator. We're talking warranty in most cases. That means labor reimbursement to the dealership, as well as the burdens related to training and such mentioned above. Once out of warranty, service is a revenue stream for the dealerships. I would imagine BMW AG's only share in that would be the profit-stream from parts, which still applies to independent shops the majority of the time (yes, aftermarket parts sometimes come into play, but most independent specialists still prefer OEM).

BMW is in the business of selling new cars. Sorry, but anyone who really expects them to put much focus on catering to shade-tree mechanics who buy 10-year old used BMW's needs a fresh dose of reality.

[az3579]

I have to admit, I'm kind of chuckling at this post... On one tab, I have this thread open, and on the next tab, I have an 18 page thread open about a guy that is making (and selling) custom mods for the F10 M5... The cars will always be modded, people will always figure out the software... All it takes is money, and time...

​Precisely what I was trying to say earlier. The fact that they're more complicated is irrelevent; it's never going to get better regardless of manufacturer, so the most we can do as consumers is suck it up and let someone figure out how to get around it.




BMW is in the business of selling new cars. Sorry, but anyone who really expects them to put much focus on catering to shade-tree mechanics who buy 10-year old used BMW's needs a fresh dose of reality.

This. Cars are never going to get easier to work on, but to think that they're doing this on purpose in my mind is unrealistic. None of us were involved with the development on these cars, so we can't possibly know the challenges they faced when building them. They ultimately have to build the cars around their limitations and requirements, so their hands are mostly tied with what they can do. That is why it upsets me when people start complaining about the newer cars and how they're all complicated and all that jazz, without knowing the full story.

[stephenkirsh]

BMW is in the business of selling new cars. Sorry, but anyone who really expects them to put much focus on catering to shade-tree mechanics who buy 10-year old used BMW's needs a fresh dose of reality.

Another +1 on this.

I think a lot of enthusiasts don't understand this, especially if their work life doesn't involve creating and selling a product. Nobody really sits there and worries about how easy it is to repair 5 years out of warranty.

[Fried_Chicken]

​Precisely what I was trying to say earlier. The fact that they're more complicated is irrelevent; it's never going to get better regardless of manufacturer, so the most we can do as consumers is suck it up and let someone figure out how to get around it.




This. Cars are never going to get easier to work on, but to think that they're doing this on purpose in my mind is unrealistic. None of us were involved with the development on these cars, so we can't possibly know the challenges they faced when building them. They ultimately have to build the cars around their limitations and requirements, so their hands are mostly tied with what they can do. That is why it upsets me when people start complaining about the newer cars and how they're all complicated and all that jazz, without knowing the full story.

There is difference between adopting new technologies that aren't easy to work on, and actively walling off the cars. Apple goes through a massive effort to keep their iPhone OSes from being jailbroken. Car manufacturers are trying to do the same thing, and while it's not illegal, and people will start reverse engineering and finding a way around it, it is still a massive PITA and hopefully certain manufacturers take advantage of this.

[Bird-Dog]

...and hopefully certain manufacturers take advantage of this.
Are slurs really necessary to make your point?

[danewilson77]

Are slurs really necessary to make your point?
Both posts edited. Let's be sensitive to all people here in the Family.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge

[johnrando]

Thanks boss

sent from mobile device

[az3579]

Car manufacturers are trying to do the same thing, and while it's not illegal, and people will start reverse engineering and finding a way around it,

While they may be lobbying to be able to do this, they currently are NOT building cars this way. Therefore, until they actually start doing this (which will likely never happen because the laws are unlikely to get changed in their favor with regards to completely blocking out consumers), you can't say they are actively designing cars to not be "user serviceable". If something isn't friendly to service right now, then it just so happens to be that way by coincidence. Let's not forget that engineers make mistakes too. Taking the Mercedes transmission example above, let's just say that hindsight is always 20/20. To think that they'd make a transmission non-serviceable and require a replacement every 40-100k is preposterous because the damage their reputation would take would be too great a risk.

You can't get premium features and expect the car to be easy to service. Jumping to conclusions and saying they're making it difficult to service is not fair in any aspect.

[yura]

^ that's it though. When it costs more to maintain an old car than to buy a new one, BMW AG gets another sale.

[Fried_Chicken]

^ that's it though. When it costs more to maintain an old car than to buy a new one, BMW AG gets another sale.

This is it. BMW sells more cars because an old BMW doesn't compete with a new BMW.
It's a short-sighted way of increasing profits for shareholders *now*, but on a generational time-span destroys the reputation of car manufacturer.

This guy (http://www.kenrockwell.com/sl/endofmercedes.htm) talks at length about how Mercedes destroyed their 100 year reputation in a "get rich quick" goal of world domination.


BTW sorry about the ding ling comment. I was referencing that east asian manufacturers (japan, korea, etc.) have traditionally copied off of the Germans and in some ways improve on them by removing the idiocy (think: lexus reliability vs mercedes... not).


Even the ZHP suffers from this idiocy. BMW engineers somehow managed to come up with window regulators that fail. Power windows are a 50 year old technology that BMW somehow managed to mess up.

[az3579]

^ that's it though. When it costs more to maintain an old car than to buy a new one, BMW AG gets another sale.

When it comes to buying/leasing new BMWs, the ones that can afford them are usually the ones that buy/lease a new one after a while anyway, regardless of maintenance cost. This quoted statement would probably be true for a cheaper class vehicle where maintenance costs are a concern (let's say a Toyota), hence why they're darned near bulletproof and why people buy them. They are simpler overall, and as a result both features/quality and cost go down compared to a German car since less engineering goes into them. So, these are the folks that are likely to make a decision on whether it's more expensive to maintain an older car or buy a new one due to maintenance cost. Let's face it; if cost wasn't a concern, people would probably buy the German counterpart. There's a reason why all the richer neighborhoods have mostly premium cars in their driveways, and it's definitely not maintenance cost.


This is it. BMW sells more cars because an old BMW doesn't compete with a new BMW.
It's a short-sighted way of increasing profits for shareholders *now*, but on a generational time-span destroys the reputation of car manufacturer.

BMW sells more cars because people want to buy new cars (agreed with you on that), but it's not because the cars are complicated (leaning back more towards the subject of this thread). The vast majority of BMW owners aren't fanatical about maintenance like enthusiasts are, and we as enthusiasts are the only ones who know the true cost of BMW ownership. So, the "regular" folk just want to buy new cars, not necessarily because of maintenance. I believe the tech is the big player here. As tech evolves, people become more and more tech focused, and an older car obviously doesn't have the latest tech. This is something that doesn't really have much to do with maintenance costs and complexity of repairs, because people tend to buy new cars before that stuff ever breaks down. BMW just happens to be making out financially with this trend.

What about us enthusiasts? Well, remember when they mainly made enthusiast cars? Tech wasn't a concern back then, which is why they were simpler to work on. Fast forward to today; technology has taken over our lives. Introduce tech and all of a sudden you have yourself a whole new element to deal with when it comes to the vehicle's complexity. To make things work, you must do certain things to make that happen. Okay, you've made it work, now you must find a way to make it work all the time, in a stable way. That means introducing safeguards to prevent problems from occurring. These are steps that are necessary to ensure this happens, such as locking things down to Joe Schmoe doesn't accidentally futz around with something and break it. This prevents the vast majority of problems from happening, and that's fine. Enter the "back door" method (just my choice of words), which is what enthusiasts and auto shops do when they purposefully want to modify their cars. There is software that can do this, and currently we are able to do what we want to with our vehicles. The whole question that was originally raised was why BMW is designing their cars in a way that we wouldn't be able to fix them. That is not the case at this time because any of us could fix one of the newer vehicles if we knew the replacement procedures and had the software to do it. Loads of people have the software needed to fix today's cars, and I don't just mean dealers. If BMW was actively designing their cars to not be repairable by anyone other than the dealer, then you wouldn't be able to perform maintenance on your Fxx series car at home. This is not the case; the tools are out there, you'd just have to go out and buy them. These aren't E46's; the tech is different, and as with anything, people will figure it out and we will move on with our lives just like anything that presents a roadblock.



Even the ZHP suffers from this idiocy. BMW engineers somehow managed to come up with window regulators that fail. Power windows are a 50 year old technology that BMW somehow managed to mess up.

What you're effectively doing is calling the guy that's trying to make your life better an idiot because he messed up. That's not very nice...

Notice how when an E46's regulators are fresh, the windows roll up and down in a very nice, smooth, and quiet manner? Compare that to the E36; it sounds like it's from the stone ages when moving the window up and down. They attempted to refine the experience to make it better. Once again, engineers are not perfect; it just happened to backfire on them. It happens; there is NO car that is perfect because they ALL have their problems. Those Toyotas and Lexuses have their fair share of problems too (just a different set/type of problems), just like anyone else. Trying to make things better always involves trial and error, and sometimes there are errors that show up too late in a development cycle to make changes to it, or many times shows up after development is complete and is already in production. At that point, is it really worth the company's time and effort to fix a part that's so cheap to replace and only have to replace it every so often? I would say no. It's not a safety related part and poses no risk to anyone. The car is still drivable. There are things that BMW should have addressed, like those stupid ZKW lights burning out, but c'est la vie. We as enthusiasts just deal with it, because the rest of the car is just too damn good ​to ignore.

[Fried_Chicken]

[snip]

What you're effectively doing is calling the guy that's trying to make your life better an idiot because he messed up. That's not very nice...

Notice how when an E46's regulators are fresh, the windows roll up and down in a very nice, smooth, and quiet manner? Compare that to the E36; it sounds like it's from the stone ages when moving the window up and down. They attempted to refine the experience to make it better. Once again, engineers are not perfect; it just happened to backfire on them. It happens; there is NO car that is perfect because they ALL have their problems. Those Toyotas and Lexuses have their fair share of problems too (just a different set/type of problems), just like anyone else. Trying to make things better always involves trial and error, and sometimes there are errors that show up too late in a development cycle to make changes to it, or many times shows up after development is complete and is already in production. At that point, is it really worth the company's time and effort to fix a part that's so cheap to replace and only have to replace it every so often? I would say no. It's not a safety related part and poses no risk to anyone. The car is still drivable. There are things that BMW should have addressed, like those stupid ZKW lights burning out, but c'est la vie. We as enthusiasts just deal with it, because the rest of the car is just too damn good ​to ignore.

You're making some rather strong assumptions about the engineers that worked on this car. On the Window regulators, I'm convinced they were trying to find a way to save money while maybe improving on the design. Why? Because window regulators have existed for over 50 years, it's a part that really shouldn't fail.

ZKW headlights are a piece of cutting edge technology, and while they really should have been tested better (it's not hard to leave one running in various environmental conditions for a year straight), some leeway should be allowed as it is rather novel.

[Bird-Dog]

Window regulators make all BMW engineering "hostile"? Really? The point was that they work very well when new. But, like many parts subject to constant use they do wear out.

From what I've read, a key component of the problem with them wearing out prematurely is "sticktion" of the window in the frame rubber (hence the reason coupe & convertibles with their frameless windows don't share the same degree of problems with regulators). The regulators are over-stressed when windows don't freely break-away from the rubber seals. And to this point, this issue is aggravated by aftermarket tint film and by frame rubbers that get sticky. It can be heat that causes the stickiness, but it can also be lack of cleaning and maintenance (of the rubber). Try dressing your window frame seals and I bet you will see your regulators last longer. Silicon would be best, but will leave residue on the edge of the window. Gummi Pflege might be a good option.

[yura]

Lots of good points for both sides of the argument here. Will be interesting to see how things change over the next few decades.