How does the BMW M3 produce 100 more hp than the BMW 330 ZHP?

[Blurr]

I did some searching on a few of the forums but the forums are big and either I missed the threads on this or I didn't search correctly.

The question is, How the E46 M3 produce 100 more crank HP than the ZHP?

I know that the engine is a 3.2L over the 3.0L of the ZHP but that's as far as my knowledge goes. I suspect that the heads probably flow a great deal more and the cams probably have longer durations, but what else and are those thing enough to make the entire 100hp difference?

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere before so if there is a link that explains it, I'd be happy with that.

As a side note, I'm not actually interested in the difference between the suspension or any other non engine related difference, just the difference that would affect total engine output at the crank.

[gr330zhp]

Individual throttle bodies make a difference. The S54 is really a race car motor put in a street car. It is superbly designed, the power range, redline etc etc, and BMW has squeezed a lot out of it. Thats why other than F/I it's hard to squeeze much more power out of it :dunno

[mimalmo]

Rev limit plays a part too as do the internals.

[MisterMotorist]

More air/fuel in, higher RPM, ITB = mo powa

[Blurr]

Individual throttle bodies make a difference. The S54 is really a race car motor put in a street car. It is superbly designed, the power range, redline etc etc, and BMW has squeezed a lot out of it. Thats why other than F/I it's hard to squeeze much more power out of it :dunno

I did a bit of reading recently about those items. How many individual throttle bodies does the M3 have?

As far as the RPM's, isn't it only a 500 rpm difference to redline?

I could see how there could be a huge difference in how the ECU is tuned but are the only things that are going to help produce an extra 100 hp at the crank?

As far as the internals are concerned, is the compression ratio higher on the M3? I think we have 10.2:1, but I'm fairly ignorant of the technical specifics of our cars since I'm new to them; I can't image the M3 haven't more than maybe 11.5ish.

I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the exact methods that BMW used to get an extra 100hp between the models.

[ZHP-FTW]

I did a bit of reading recently about those items. How many individual throttle bodies does the M3 have?

As far as the RPM's, isn't it only a 500 rpm difference to redline?

I could see how there could be a huge difference in how the ECU is tuned but are the only things that are going to help produce an extra 100 hp at the crank?

As far as the internals are concerned, is the compression ratio higher on the M3? I think we have 10.2:1, but I'm fairly ignorant of the technical specifics of our cars since I'm new to them; I can't image the M3 haven't more than maybe 11.5ish.

I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the exact methods that BMW used to get an extra 100hp between the models.

It has 6 ITB, one for each cylinder. It has a 8,000 rpm redline so that's 1,500 more than the ZHP stock. Better tuned Ecu, higher compression, different vanos profiles I think, and a few other things I can't think of right now. All this adds up to 100hp more.

And on a side note, in regards to the rpm difference... I think if you could extend the rpms indefinitely, you could theoretically have infinite HP.
That's why those F1 cars can get 900hp at 18,000 rpms out of a 2.0-2.5L engine.

[az3579]

I think if you could extend the rpms indefinitely, you could theoretically have infinite HP.
That's why those F1 cars can get 900hp at 18,000 rpms out of a 2.0-2.5L engine.

Not necessarily. Regular car engines have a powerband; power drops off (sometimes significantly) after this powerband. I think you would actually have almost no power after a certain rev range on these engines, so if that S54 revved to 10k rpm, you probably wouldn't be accelerating any faster than a Honda Civic DX, if that.

[mikeyb74]

The S54B32 block was made from grey cast iron rather than aluminum to achieve greater rigidity from the same dimensions. It is a 3.2 L (3246 cc) engine; bore is 87 mm (3.4 in) and stroke is 91 mm (3.6 in). It has reinforced forged steel connecting rods, graphite coated cast aluminum pistons and a forged steel crankshaft.

[Hornung418]

Regarding power band: Hotter cams require a higher rev range to achieve power in the top end. Once the torque peak is reached, the horsepower will keep the motor at speed while still generating power when you need it. Typically every degree increase in camshafts will shift the peak operating band about 500 rpm, if I'm not mistaken.

[Acyd]

I was actually looking into getting an M3 before i settled on the ZHP. The M3 was just to expensive to maintain. Im really happy with my ZHP, no regrets.

I would love me some 333Hp tho. <3 that M3 engine.

[Rovert]

E46 M3 S54 3.2L - Bore: 87mm / Stroke: 91mm
E36 M3 S52 3.2L - Bore: 86.4mm / Stroke 89.6mm
E46 ZHP M54 3.0L - Bore: 84mm / Stroke: 89.6mm
E46 328 M52 2.8L - Bore: 84mm / Stroke: 84mm
E46 325 M54 2.5L - Bore: 84mm / Stroke: 75mm

Bore is how big each cylinder/piston is. Stroke is the max travel of the piston.
Bore is more for high end horsepower. Stroke is more for low end torque.

If our car came with the 3.62 diff versus the oem 3.07 diff we'd be a lot quicker and closer to the M3 in low end acceleration. Now add stronger engine components which raise redline. Add more throttle bodies so the engine can take in more air/higher compression ratio thus make more power. Add a better breathing exhaust and our 330 engine will come even closer. Then add more aggressive cams to change the valve timing to control the power even further with a proper ECU tune. You'll have something pretty close to M3 power minus the higher end horsepower.

You can see the E36 M3 and E46 330 are very close with the exception of a larger engine which means more high end. Which is exactly how I feel when I'm on the track with a fellow E36 M3. I have no problem keeping up to him at the low speed torquier parts of the track but on the straights my 330 loses steam. If you've ever driven a 325 or 328 you'll feel that their torque gets lower but at the high end they are still as peppy and fun as a 330 because of the similar bore.

My friend who owns a BMW only junk yard said that the M54 engines are all the same size other than how far each piston moves (stroke) which creates more power. He said the less it has the move, the more reliable the engine.

Hope this helps!

[Marcus-SanDiego]

Trevor, excellent summary.

[kaboom]

Not necessarily. Regular car engines have a powerband; power drops off (sometimes significantly) after this powerband. I think you would actually have almost no power after a certain rev range on these engines, so if that S54 revved to 10k rpm, you probably wouldn't be accelerating any faster than a Honda Civic DX, if that.

Exactly. You can't just raise the rpm. You have to make torque at a high rpm in order to make horsepower, since horsepower is just a calculation if torque at rpm.

In order to make torque at high rpm, requires breathing, which is almost all done in the head/cams. The bottom end, so long as it has enough compression, doesn't change peak power much.

Both an e36m and e46 make, when you punch it, deliver similar torque and pull just as "hard" as one another. What makes the e46m faster is that it pulls longer, whereas the e46 has to shift as torque is dropping up top. Delivering torque more "times" is horsepower, or in physics measured in work done.

Ian

[jamezc88]

The s54 from what ive been told also has a head made of an aluminium and magnesium composite along with the cast iron block to withstand the greater compression. Like the others have said there is alot done to the s54 to make the extra ~100hp.

[Rovert]

Just like the difference between a Marathon contestant and an Ironman contestant. Both look very close to the same weight. But their training and internals are just at a higher level than a regular marathon. Can't judge a person or a car from it's covers and technical numbers.

[kaboom]

That's a pretty good analogy.

The force to move something would be similar to torque. A marathon runner cannot lift or move as much weight in one push as a weightlifter. However, "power" equates to how much work is done over a certain amount of time. In other words, in one hour, a marathon runner may move more weight (a little at a time) than a weightlifter. That makes him more "powerful" while having less "torque". The marathon runners lungs are like a head and cam setup that breaths well, and a weightlifter's muscles are like a 496ci chevy that can pull out stumps but doesn't do any good after 5000rpm.

Ian

[Rovert]

Damn.....the ZHP Mafia is one smart crowd!!

[kaboom]

How's the ride on those V2's buddy?

Ian

[Rovert]

People who are used to their F150's and RAV4's are shocked at how composed the ride is.
People who are used to lowered vehicles, autocross, & M3's can't believe how well balanced it is whilst still maintaining a flat, road gripping hold as the car is thrown past 1.0G's of dry lateral. :D

[kaboom]

How would you say the ride is compared to stock ZHP? I'll probably spring for the V3's if I'm going to do it. I like some compliance, on a road course I can't stand a car that is undertired and over sprung.

Ian

[Rovert]

First, I have the utmost respect for BMW and their motorsports division in creating the ZHP. The ride is exceptional and I'm saddened that most people will never be able to explore the limits of what the car has to offer due to either ignorance of not knowing how to handle the car, or ignorance of thinking they know how to drive. My friends who ride with me marvel at how much grip and balance the oem suspension has. If it weren't for the stock ride height being too high, I'd be happy with OEM suspension for the life of the car as it is 'fast' enough to react to 99% of public street surprises.

KW is Firmer than stock ZSP/ZHP but not buy much. Even my "What's an M3?" mom doesn't complain about harshness when riding with me. She does tell me to slow down when I'm cornering...LOL. Bilstein PSSx is known to be much harder. I'd swing the extra few hundred to get V3. Having control of one movement but not the opposite movement is a downer to someone who like to tinker with how suspension feels down to the last detail.

Going along this thread topic, having an awesome suspension makes you feel like you're driving a car with an extra 100hp! So to anyone wanting to upgrade their car to an M3 just because it has more vroom vroom and an LSD, stop and think to yourself if you have had the training and have the knowledge to 1st exploit all performance characteristics of your non-M before you make that next leap.

[kaboom]

Thanks for the response. I'd be happy with about 25 more whp and an LSD. I'm not a big fan of the e46m's looks.

Ian

[MrMaico]

Interesting article here about the S54......

http://www.rfdm.com/S54/index.html