moisture in the CCV system... thoughts, concerns, expletives...

[slater]

OK. we all know (i am assuming, here), the downfalls of the stock CCV system in colder climates. and i think where i live qualifies as 'extreme' - it's been -20C more than i can remember this winter.

for me, i needed to replace the stock system not because it failed, but because i did not know when it was last replaced, and the potential for disaster, for me, is greater than the amount of servicing a custom system may require - because i did not want that condensate (details below) going back into the oil pan, and i wanted to see what exactly was coming out of the valve cover.

i put together a simple system with an ADD W1 catch can (switching to 42draftdesigns can shortly), a PCV valve, and some nice hoses that will not collapse under vacuum. the ADD W1 can is serviceable in as much as i can unscrew the bottom and empty it - and it has a dipstick (the 42draftdesigns can has a drain spigot and hose that i can route wherever i choose - i am looking forward to that).

so, my new system, when the weather is warm, works very well - and the car is running extremely well. however, there is a mega amount of condensate (90% water, 10% orange mayo) appearing in my ADD W1 can - as in, i emptied it friday morning (it was almost entirely frozen as the car had been sitting for about 4 days in -20C temps in my garage - talk about a good catch!), drove for 3hrs on the highway friday, 1.5hrs on the highway saturday, a few short trips sunday, 3.5hrs on the highway home on monday - and monday afternoon i checked the can, and it was darn near full. FULL. after 4 days, and maybe 750km of mostly-highway driving. now, it's been roughly -20C the entire time, which i'm sure is not helping.... but where the F is this massive amount of condensate coming from? and why is it not evaporating? the can is aluminum. i have it positioned right next to my upper coolant hose, to allow it to remain warm as long as possible.

to try to combat the condensate, i am going to be picking up some insulated hot water pipe wrap for the inlet/outlet hoses, and i may even pick up a plug-in oil pan heater that i can wrap around the catch can and leave plugged in when the car is not in use.

i also want an oil temp gauge - is there any way we can display that in the hidden OBC via some coding changes?

sigh. i like my car. really. but it's stuff like this that has my wife saying, "why can't we buy a NEW car????"

ugh.

peter

[stephenkirsh]

Not sure about the rest, but the M54 has no oil temp sensor. So nothing the OBC can view.

Is there a reason the stock cold weather CCV is bad? I didn't really understand your explanation.

[slater]

Not sure about the rest, but the M54 has no oil temp sensor. So nothing the OBC can view.

Is there a reason the stock cold weather CCV is bad? I didn't really understand your explanation.

bummer on the OBC thing - i may install an oil temp sensor.

well... in colder climates, the M54 seems to generate a heck of a lot of moisture, post-valve cover exit. this turns into the orange 'mayo' gooey stuff. over time it builds up in the stock CCV... and in some cases, freezes entirely and can oil-hydrolock the motor if it sucks oil back up through the dipstick-drain tube. yeah, bad bad stuff.

consensus on why it generates so much moisture is because in colder weather, the oil temp never really gets hot enough. but after 30mins of driving... come on... it should be up to normal operating temp.

peter

[johnrando]

Not sure what to tell you, but nice work. Hope you find the answers.

[Dave1027]

How's the coolant level been?

If it's been steady then maybe it's down to humidity.

[slater]

Not sure what to tell you, but nice work. Hope you find the answers.

thanks john. i've got location-envy at the moment. :) need to figure out how to winter in SoCal...



How's the coolant level been?

If it's been steady then maybe it's down to humidity.

to be honest, i have not checked the coolant level since maybe 6 weeks ago, which was maybe 5 months since i did a cooling system overhaul, and the level was fine.

the humidity level idea is interesting. right now it's dry (50%), but we have had a lot of snow recently.

peter

[stephenkirsh]

So the cold weather CCV isn't sufficient over the normal ccv?

[LivesNearCostco]

Could it be your thermostat is stuck open? Have you used the OBC to monitor coolant temps?

Stephen: I thought the M54 had a simple oil temp sensor plugged into the oil filter housing block that would trigger a warning light if the oil temp gets too hot? Or is that oil pressure warning light only, no temp sensor? I could have sworn there were two sensor in my oil filter housing (I once removed it to drill out a stripped tensioner bolt.)

[stephenkirsh]

I'm pretty sure no oil temp sensor. I could be wrong, though.

[slater]

So the cold weather CCV isn't sufficient over the normal ccv?

i personally don't feel it's good enough for winter where i live, no. not willing to take the risk based on so many others having issues with it.



Could it be your thermostat is stuck open? Have you used the OBC to monitor coolant temps?

Stephen: I thought the M54 had a simple oil temp sensor plugged into the oil filter housing block that would trigger a warning light if the oil temp gets too hot? Or is that oil pressure warning light only, no temp sensor? I could have sworn there were two sensor in my oil filter housing (I once removed it to drill out a stripped tensioner bolt.)

i know we have a low-level warning light, that is the sensor in the bottom of the oil pan.

the other sensor is likely for the oil pressure warning light.

as for the t-stat being stuck open - i guess it's possible. how would i tell based on the OBC readings? wouldn't it just take forever to warm up? based on the temp gauge, it seems to warm up pretty quickly - at least, quicker than any previous car i can compare it to.

it's a new t-stat, last august - not that that means anything though!

peter

[stephenkirsh]

Yes it would take longer to warm up. Also, it would go up and down with out much of a pattern except for maybe going down during long/easy drives on the freeway. Something that wouldn't stress the cooling system.

[LivesNearCostco]

What Stephen said, but often to see that temp going up and down you have to activate the OBC special functions to see the actual coolant temps. Can't rely on the dash gauge because it's buffered, so your coolant temp can be a bit too low or too high and the gauge needle will still be in the middle.

There is a whole thread about what different Mafia members are getting from their OBC displays. I think when my thermostat was stuck open, it would dip as low as 70C if I was coasting downhill on a cool day. Once I replaced the thermostat, it pretty much stays between 95C and 99C or something like that.

[slater]

thanks guys. i will check this out tonight as i have 2 x 40min drives to do.

i did install insulation on the inlet/outlet hoses, and the catch can itself, yesterday, and went for a drive last night. i am going to check the can the morning after each drive to see if my condensate levels are down.

peter

[slater]

What Stephen said, but often to see that temp going up and down you have to activate the OBC special functions to see the actual coolant temps. Can't rely on the dash gauge because it's buffered, so your coolant temp can be a bit too low or too high and the gauge needle will still be in the middle.

There is a whole thread about what different Mafia members are getting from their OBC displays. I think when my thermostat was stuck open, it would dip as low as 70C if I was coasting downhill on a cool day. Once I replaced the thermostat, it pretty much stays between 95C and 99C or something like that.

OK, so i had 2 x 40min drives tonight. i ran the OBC option 7 for the coolant temps and it rose consistently until warm and hovered around 92-93C the entire time - and this was in -20C temps. HVAC was pumping out heat as per usual - all seems OK there.

i did insulated my inlet/outlet hoses, as mentioned, and the catch can, in an attempt to combat the condensate collecting after the car is shut down. i will be checking the can daily.

i can't imagine the metal can, even though it is aluminum, is helping the cause here - the condensate will freeze likely easier than in the plastic CCV. i am considering a small oil pan-type heater for the catch can that i can plug in just to keep it from freezing...

peter

[ryankokesh]

Weird question, but do you have an OEM intake?


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[wsmeyer]

How about your hood liner, is it still there?

[slater]

Weird question, but do you have an OEM intake?

i do, but not installed. :) running an aFe Pro Dry S.



How about your hood liner, is it still there?

no, i took it down as it was quite dilapidated. that likely would be a good idea right about now... hmmm. thanks.

peter

[wsmeyer]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/19/b17f0baabec5c21c49e82edec1c268ed.jpg

Part 5 is the vacuum distribution block that feeds the CCV. It sits on top of the intake manifold and would therefore cool rather quickly. Just a theory but I believe the insulation is partly there to keep the top of the engine warmer longer after shutdown to prevent condensation from building up.


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[ryankokesh]

i do, but not installed. :) running an aFe Pro Dry S.




no, i took it down as it was quite dilapidated. that likely would be a good idea right about now... hmmm. thanks.

peter

Ah, so your snorkel is installed then, right?


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[slater]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/19/b17f0baabec5c21c49e82edec1c268ed.jpg

Part 5 is the vacuum distribution block that feeds the CCV. It sits on top of the intake manifold and would therefore cool rather quickly. Just a theory but I believe the insulation is partly there to keep the top of the engine warmer longer after shutdown to prevent condensation from building up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

it's a good theory. i have it somewhere, i will re-install if it is usable and see.



Ah, so your snorkel is installed then, right?


Sent from my iPhone

you mean the first part of the intake that feeds air in through the kidney grilles? yes, that is.

[ryankokesh]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/19/b17f0baabec5c21c49e82edec1c268ed.jpg

Part 5 is the vacuum distribution block that feeds the CCV. It sits on top of the intake manifold and would therefore cool rather quickly. Just a theory but I believe the insulation is partly there to keep the top of the engine warmer longer after shutdown to prevent condensation from building up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Think you might be on to something...

[slater]

i checked my catch can this morning. after a good 40min drive last night i parked it in the garage, and it sat there overnight in -20C temps. at 11am the can was not frozen and some new mayo/water mix was in the can (maybe 1-2 tbsp?).... but the important part is that it wasn't frozen! insulation FTW. putting the hood insulation back can only help, so i will try to do that this weekend.

also, i am thinking of making a cardboard blocking plate for the radiator, with flaps. should help the engine warm-up faster and potentially get warmer overall in these temps.

sigh. overall, i want a very low-maintenance solution - checking the can and emptying it daily, as well as worrying about it freezing up is a major PITA. ain't nobody got time for this. thinking about putting in a new, cold-climate version CCV setup with updated ($$$) dipstick tube, along with an oil pan heater for winter use so that the pan is warm and it potentially keeps the dipstick tube from freezing (and maybe the CCV as well since it's just upstream of that... and heat rises).

peter

[slater]

update: insulation is working well. we did a lot of short trips this weekend (bad for mayo/moisture build-up). it did not get above freezing this weekend, but it was close (-3C at the high), although it's back down to -20C right now. did not check the can this weekend but checked this morning, and it had maybe 3-4 tbsp of water, tiny bit of mayo at the bottom - none in the can-to-intake manifold tubing though, which is good (can is doing it's job). but the important part, again - it was not frozen! insulation seems to be the trick - i'll post a pic this week. it is much more insulation than the factory CCV hoses.

i also cut a piece of cardboard with flaps this morning and installed in front of the radiator. will do some more OBC coolant temp datalogging in comparison to pre-cardboard. it's not an elegant solution but it's cheap and easy.

peter

[stephenkirsh]

Cheap and easy are always awesome in my book.

[anandoc]

update: insulation is working well. we did a lot of short trips this weekend (bad for mayo/moisture build-up). it did not get above freezing this weekend, but it was close (-3C at the high), although it's back down to -20C right now. did not check the can this weekend but checked this morning, and it had maybe 3-4 tbsp of water, tiny bit of mayo at the bottom - none in the can-to-intake manifold tubing though, which is good (can is doing it's job). but the important part, again - it was not frozen! insulation seems to be the trick - i'll post a pic this week. it is much more insulation than the factory CCV hoses.

i also cut a piece of cardboard with flaps this morning and installed in front of the radiator. will do some more OBC coolant temp datalogging in comparison to pre-cardboard. it's not an elegant solution but it's cheap and easy.

peter

Peter, thanks so much for taking the time and effort for conducting these experiments on behalf of the community. Lately, I am observing quite a bit of mayo build-up under the oil-cap in my car and I am worried that this will shorten the life of the brand new CCV (cold weather version) that I put in this summer. I also have my hood insulation out (it was torn - needs repairs) so that could be a contributing factor it seems.

Quite curious to see your setup and I might implement it for the next winter.

[wsmeyer]

Glad to hear the situation seems to be improving. My theory of the hood insulation was just that for condensation to form you need warm moist air AND a cold surface in contact with it. The greater the temperature differential the greater propensity for condensation to form. Insulating the hood will keep the air in the engine compartment higher for a longer period of time. Eventually it will all decrease to ambient temp though and I'm surprised the moisture in the catch can isn't frozen after sitting overnight at -20C.

[slater]

Peter, thanks so much for taking the time and effort for conducting these experiments on behalf of the community. Lately, I am observing quite a bit of mayo build-up under the oil-cap in my car and I am worried that this will shorten the life of the brand new CCV (cold weather version) that I put in this summer. I also have my hood insulation out (it was torn - needs repairs) so that could be a contributing factor it seems.

Quite curious to see your setup and I might implement it for the next winter.

no problem - i will try to post some pics this week.... it is a crude setup, but undergoing refinement. :)

my friend who i sold my '05 ZHP coupe to just had his CCV freeze. i can't help but feel bad, so i hope that this research can be for his sake as well. :)



Glad to hear the situation seems to be improving. My theory of the hood insulation was just that for condensation to form you need warm moist air AND a cold surface in contact with it. The greater the temperature differential the greater propensity for condensation to form. Insulating the hood will keep the air in the engine compartment higher for a longer period of time. Eventually it will all decrease to ambient temp though and I'm surprised the moisture in the catch can isn't frozen after sitting overnight at -20C.

thanks william - and yes, i too am surprised that the moisture did not freeze as well. going to check it a little later this AM as my wife did two short trips yesterday - and it was -19C last night. it looks like we'll be out of the -20C zone after this weekend. if it can survive these temps... it can handle next winter.

your theory on the underhood insulation and temperature differences makes good sense. i am going to try to get the insulation back in tonight.

peter

[slater]

OK, here's a pic of my crude setup.

a few things to note:

- the red lines indicate where the outlet line from the catch can to the intake manifold runs
- i have the PCV mounted in said line, right before the connector to the intake manifold
- the inlet hose (from valve cover) is 3/4" goodyear heater hose - i would like to change this to 250psi hydraulic hose (it does collapse a tiny bit)
- the outlet hose (to intake manifold) is 5/8" hydraulic hose and is mega stiff (it was $10/ft from fastenal - expensive stuff)
- the insulation is 3/4" ID for residential hot water pipes
- the catch can is an ADD W1 can w/ removable bottom (for emptying), serviceable internal baffle (for cleaning), and dipstick; insulation on the can is same 3/4" as above, but cut in half lengthwise to allow it to surround the can
- mounting location is not ideal for aesthetics, but allows for easy checking/emptying and shortest hose runs - also maximum heat due to proximity to upper radiator hose

again, it is crude, and really for testing more than anything, but it IS working... i will reinstall, somehow, my failing hood insulation to see how that helps with condensation buildup.

i have been considering putting a brand-new cold weather version CCV in, but covering the lines with this thick insulation as well as getting a stick-on oil pan heater, which should heat up the oil + pan enough to keep the dipstick tube from freezing.

i have come to grips that neither system is worry-free - the catch can allows my paranoid self to monitor things, and prevent that condensate from going into the oil pan - it also increases vacuum to the crankcase, which others have stated helps the low-tension piston rings to seal... and my butt-dyno says it's a good thing - the car feels strong. conversely, the extra-insulated cold-weather CCV setup should produce less condensate (i hope?) due to the fact that the CCV is plastic (my can is aluminum), and extra-insulated. i also don't have to worry about emptying it, but i DO have to worry about that crap going back into the oil pan. but if i heat the pan in the winter time, that should evaporate.....?

damned if i do, damned if i don't. LOL. :)

peter

[wsmeyer]

What you have now is entirely different than the stock CCV. A PCV valve (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) is a one-way valve designed to release any pressure in the crankcase as the result of the gasses slipping past the piston rings. None of the vacuum pressure of the manifold will be transferred to the crankcase and it will always be operating at a positive pressure just slightly below the point at which the PCV valve opens.

The stock CCV setup has a pressure regulator in it that allows the crankcase to operate at a slight vacuum. I tried to test mine when I replaced my CCV but a standard automotive vacuum gauge isn't precise enough as the pressure was somewhere around 2in Hg ~ 1psi.

I picked up a new gauge last week just for this reason but I haven't had time to work out the fittings needed to test it again.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FBKY3IO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[slater]

What you have now is entirely different than the stock CCV. A PCV valve (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) is a one-way valve designed to release any pressure in the crankcase as the result of the gasses slipping past the piston rings. None of the vacuum pressure of the manifold will be transferred to the crankcase and it will always be operating at a positive pressure just slightly below the point at which the PCV valve opens.

sorry, i am not following. the way i have it plumbed, the intake manifold does indeed supply vacuum to the crankcase, and the PCV is limiting that amount. i have not measured the exact amount (i don't have a way of measuring).


The stock CCV setup has a pressure regulator in it that allows the crankcase to operate at a slight vacuum. I tried to test mine when I replaced my CCV but a standard automotive vacuum gauge isn't precise enough as the pressure was somewhere around 2in Hg ~ 1psi.

I picked up a new gauge last week just for this reason but I haven't had time to work out the fittings needed to test it again.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FBKY3IO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

nice, that looks good - and precisely what i would need to measure current vacuum! :)

i did a lot of reading about the CCV and it's pressure regulator. it does seem like the best system - if it can be freeze-proof! and i am not one to think i am smarter than BMW engineers, as clearly i am not, and i am old enough to realize that OEM is almost always best... however in my case i simply needed to keep the darn thing from freezing - which is how i kind of arrived at my setup... anyway, onward and upward!

peter

[slater]

well, my underhood insulation is not going back in - i found a hole in it, which i now remember was there when i bought the car, and the insulation is dry and crumbling and falling out of the hole.

just going to buy some new insulation. it's ~$100.

peter

[anandoc]

My hood insulation also had a hole and the 'stuff' from inside it was falling out when I bought the car. This is why I had taken it off. I was thinking of taping it up with some high-temp resistant tape since I refuse to pay $100ish for this.

http://www.amazon.com/3M-High-Temperature-Flue-15-Foot/dp/B00004Z4DS

[slater]

yeah, i can appreciate that. mine also seemed to have 'shrunk' - it did not fit the underside of the hood, width-wise, any longer and would not stay up on the sides. annoying.

seems like our cars are plagued with the same issues! :)

update on the cardboard: test runs indicate that it reaches 75C about 30 seconds faster than before - but struggled to get to 95C with the cardboard in place, whereas before the cardboard it had no trouble getting up to 92-95C. took it out.

peter