H&R 27mm sway bar vs. H&R sport springs - Best bang for my buck?

[Cadeez]

I'm slowly trying to refresh my suspension bit by bit, so I'm looking for advice on which parts are the better buy for my next upgrade. Current suspension is stock. I'm trying to decide which is the better bang for my buck, upgrade to an H&R 27mm front sway bar, or upgrade to a set of H&R sport springs?? The cost is about the same for both, so it really comes down to what I'll get the better performance and enjoyment out of? Pros or cons of either or? I read a thread here about understeer with a larger swaybar, which I obviously don't want, is it very noticable? With the springs, they'll lower the car slightly (.75"F & .25"R), which I'm neither here nor there on, personally I think it looks perfect as is and like never scraping on anything. Naturally the install piece of the equation has the sway bar winning in spades, whereas the springs would be a muuuch bigger job. Thoughts? The ones I'm looking at are below...

Sway Bar
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-330i-M54_3.0L/Suspension/Sway_Bar/Front/ES10808/

Springs
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=H%26R&model=Sport+Spring+Set&group=Sport+Spring+Set&partNum=29484&29484_Qty=1&autoMake=BMW&autoModel=330i&autoYear=2001&autoModClar=

Also, what are some of the common "while I'm in there" parts to replace for either choice? Sway bar links, shock mounts, bushings, etc?

[danewilson77]

Each item serves a different function somewhat imo.

I'd go front sway if I had to pick.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[Cadeez]

Dane, yes they certainly do serve different functions, but the price is the same so I could really go either way. Is one a better mod than the other, or better value? That is my current dilemma... For what it's worth, I'm leaning towards the sway bar as well. For ease of install but also because "eventually" I'd like to go to coilovers, but it'll be a while.

[danewilson77]

Then I say definitely do not waste your $$$ on springs.

"No flamesuit required"

[Vas]

Stiffer front bar will get rid of the understeer not create more of it.

[Cadeez]

Then I say definitely do not waste your $$$ on springs.

"No flamesuit required"
I like the way you think Dane!


Stiffer front bar will get rid of the understeer not create more of it.

That would make sense and is what I thought, perhaps I read the post wrong
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?3475-Sway-Bar-Replacement-What-Did-You-Choose

[derbo]

Increasing your roll resistance with the sway bars is my choice. I have 30mm H&R front sway on mine. Sway bars do not affect ride height or ride bump harshness and it will improve your handling without the need of an extra alignment as well.

Springs would require alot more labor and also require an alignment as it lowers the car. Springs give you a height and that's it. You either like it or you switch them out for something you like. Coilover systems maybe overkill for street but it does allow for desired height to be adjusted.

If you do go the springs route, I would suggest building a set of struts/shocks, rear shock mounts, camber plates in the front if you want a higher level of sportiness/spirited setup. That would drive up the price.



I personally went with Sway bars first, then moved on to coilover system down the line.

[Johal E32]

E46 M3 sway bar is 26mm btw. Try finding one oe of those to save a few bucks if you want! I got mine dirt cheap and the car feels much better in corners

[M0nk3y]

Increasing your roll resistance with the sway bars is my choice. I have 30mm H&R front sway on mine. Sway bars do not affect ride height or ride bump harshness and it will improve your handling without the need of an extra alignment as well.

Springs would require alot more labor and also require an alignment as it lowers the car. Springs give you a height and that's it. You either like it or you switch them out for something you like. Coilover systems maybe overkill for street but it does allow for desired height to be adjusted.

If you do go the springs route, I would suggest building a set of struts/shocks, rear shock mounts, camber plates in the front if you want a higher level of sportiness/spirited setup. That would drive up the price.



I personally went with Sway bars first, then moved on to coilover system down the line.

*Bump harshness will be affected if one wheel hit a bump and the other doesn't.

[derbo]

*Bump harshness will be affected if one wheel hit a bump and the other doesn't.

Good point. On the street, probably not enough to notice.

[M0nk3y]

Good point. On the street, probably not enough to notice.

Yea most likely not, especially on stock dampers. Although it still could be a possibility


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[derbo]

Yea most likely not, especially on stock dampers. Although it still could be a possibility


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Good to note. Forgot it's possible on stock but highly unlikely to feel. The stock suspension will muffle all that LOL.


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[Johal E32]

On Bilstein sports and Hr race springs with 26mm sway bar I could notice when one wheel went over a bump and the other didn't. But it isn't that bad at all.

[Cadeez]

Increasing your roll resistance with the sway bars is my choice. I have 30mm H&R front sway on mine. Sway bars do not affect ride height or ride bump harshness and it will improve your handling without the need of an extra alignment as well.

Springs would require alot more labor and also require an alignment as it lowers the car. Springs give you a height and that's it. You either like it or you switch them out for something you like. Coilover systems maybe overkill for street but it does allow for desired height to be adjusted.

If you do go the springs route, I would suggest building a set of struts/shocks, rear shock mounts, camber plates in the front if you want a higher level of sportiness/spirited setup. That would drive up the price.



I personally went with Sway bars first, then moved on to coilover system down the line.

That is exactly what I was looking for to make the decision, makes it easy haha, sway bar it is! Thanks man

[derbo]

On Bilstein sports and Hr race springs with 26mm sway bar I could notice when one wheel went over a bump and the other didn't. But it isn't that bad at all.

It's been awhile since I was stock but I do remember sway bars didn't really feel that much different in ride bump harshness


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[Johal E32]

Yeah like you and Monk3y said. The stock dampers are so soft that you probably can't feel it

[johnrando]

I wld say springs 1st but since you will eventually go to coilovers, I'd say sway bar. BTW, I've also read that sway bars can induce more understeer... is that not true?

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[BADCLOWN]

My old ZHP had f/r H&R sways and it handled so nice, id go with sways as well

[NoVAphotog]

Subscribed, great thread. Pretty much the same questions I had in mind as far as routes to go. Read good things about H&R sways.

[Cadeez]

I wld say springs 1st but since you will eventually go to coilovers, I'd say sway bar. BTW, I've also read that sway bars can induce more understeer... is that not true?

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Sounds like we're the only ones who read that article Johnny :cheers

[derbo]

Sounds like we're the only ones who read that article Johnny :cheers
Got a link?

sent from my phone

[Cadeez]

Got a link?

sent from my phone

This is where I read it, about halfway down on page 3, post by M0nk3y. It's not a tech article per say, more like Mafia opinion I guess...
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?3475-Sway-Bar-Replacement-What-Did-You-Choose/page3

They touch on it again in this thread, last page. In fact...it's you saying it! Haha, that's rich :facepalm
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?10789-Sway-Bar-Configurations-for-track/page4&highlight=sway

[M0nk3y]

I wld say springs 1st but since you will eventually go to coilovers, I'd say sway bar. BTW, I've also read that sway bars can induce more understeer... is that not true?

Sent from mobile

Swaybars can help, but they can also hurt if you have too much front bar without camber.

With camber, a front bar is an easy decision. Without camber, you have the be careful with the amount of swaybar you use because you can make the front end too stiff and limit weight transfer...thus asking the front tires to provide 120% grip when you obviously only have 100% available

[derbo]

This is where I read it, about halfway down on page 3, post by M0nk3y. It's not a tech article per say, more like Mafia opinion I guess...
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?3475-Sway-Bar-Replacement-What-Did-You-Choose/page3

They touch on it again in this thread, last page. In fact...it's you saying it! Haha, that's rich :facepalm
http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthread.php?10789-Sway-Bar-Configurations-for-track/page4&highlight=sway


Swaybars can help, but they can also hurt if you have too much front bar without camber.

With camber, a front bar is an easy decision. Without camber, you have the be careful with the amount of swaybar you use because you can make the front end too stiff and limit weight transfer...thus asking the front tires to provide 120% grip when you obviously only have 100% available


Pretty much what Kyle said. It really depends on how large the bar that is being upgraded to and what setting it is set to.

The configuration thread was gear towards a track setup with an assumption of having a good existing setup for suspension.

[Cadeez]

Gotcha. My car is my DD, I never do any track days, tires are Kumho Ecsta 4X KU22 (which are awesome imo). Car is currently completely stock, suspension wise. I just want to improve handling stiffness/roll a bit, while not spending a ton of $$, so this seemed like a good starting point price wise. Eventually I plan on getting a set of coilovers. Am I wasting my time/money here?

This is the adjustable 27mm bar form H&R
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-330i-M54_3.0L/Suspension/Sway_Bar/ES10808/

[danewilson77]

I'm turning anti ecstuning (ludicrous shipping), but that's nice. Adjustable because there's 2 holes?

"No flamesuit required"

[BADCLOWN]

I'm turning anti ecstuning (ludicrous shipping), but that's nice. Adjustable because there's 2 holes?

"No flamesuit required"



i haven't ordered much from them but have heard a couple complaints on shipping. For us guys that are close to them i.e. IN, KY, OH, TN, etc. i wouldn't think shipping would be much.

[Cadeez]

I'm turning anti ecstuning (ludicrous shipping), but that's nice. Adjustable because there's 2 holes?

"No flamesuit required"

Yeah, their shipping can be a bit much, even more since I'm in the NW, but this item happens to qualify for free shipping, making it the best deal I could find. I do a ton of biz with ECS, they've got everything in the world at great prices and good cs.

Adjustable because it has two holes for two different stiffness settings, no? I always prefer at least two holes... :cool

[zhp05jb]

Do you also plan to replace the rear as well, or just the front sway bar?

[M0nk3y]

I'm turning anti ecstuning (ludicrous shipping), but that's nice. Adjustable because there's 2 holes?

"No flamesuit required"

I'd talk to James at ECS. I know him personally. He'll try and reevaluate shipping


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[derbo]

I'm turning anti ecstuning (ludicrous shipping), but that's nice. Adjustable because there's 2 holes?

"No flamesuit required"

The sway bar has a free shipping icon next to it...

[Cadeez]

The sway bar has a free shipping icon next to it...

It sure does, which is why I bought it from ECS..


I'd talk to James at ECS. I know him personally. He'll try and reevaluate shipping

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Yeah but I bet he doesn't do favors for everyone who says "hey a guy I know (well actually, not exactly) said to talk to you about cheaper shipping". Does he?


Do you also plan to replace the rear as well, or just the front sway bar?

Just the front for now, I probably won't do the rear, the rear bar isn't much bigger and I hear it's a b*tch to swap out. Plus I read a stiffer rear bar might promote understeer for stock suspension without coilovers or any extra camber up front. I'm not trying to get into all of that mess just yet, I just wanna decrease some body roll

[sillieidiot]

i wouldn't have bought either. throw that money into replacing all your aging bushings instead. unless you already did that. then i would go with the front bar.

[Johal E32]

Give them a call. My dad does the same when he orders and they usually drop the shipping cost by a good amount. Albeit, he is a repeat customer so maybe that helps.

[danewilson77]

Imo, you shouldn't have to call anyone to get a fair shipping price.

"No flamesuit required"

[derbo]

Imo, you shouldn't have to call anyone to get a fair shipping price.

"No flamesuit required"

This is true. They need a new algorithm for calculating shipping that deletes "ASSHOLE" tax.

[danewilson77]

Are you calling me an asshole? :)

"No flamesuit required"

[Simmsled]

I would replace the rear shocks with Koni Sports, dial in more rear rebound, and enjoy less understeer... with quicker turn-in (higher transitional rear roll resistance) at ZERO loss of lateral grip.

I know it doesn't sound sexy, but as a former race engineer (mechanical grip package engineer), it is what I would do.
The stiffer bars sacrifice a degree of overall lateral grip for platform and will force the tires to saturate earlier per given steering input.

Also, I feel that progressive rate lowering springs are a waste of $ unless you drive in an area that resembles the surface of the moon. Progressive springs require a specific damping curve that, with conventional 'off the shelf' dampers, go from under-sprung & over-damped to the inverse. There is 'magic' where the spring rate and damping curve cross over (a point called critically damped) and that is when it all lines up and works in harmony. However, this is the exception, not the rule.

[johnrando]

Great advice.

[Cadeez]

Imo, you shouldn't have to call anyone to get a fair shipping price.

"No flamesuit required"

I'm with you Dane... One thing I noticed that could greatly reduce their shipping costs is smaller/better pkg. I mean, I'm all for keeping the products safe during transit, but holy crap their packaging is waaaay overkill. Their shipping boxes are HUGE!! If they cut the size of their pkg in half, maybe their shipping costs could be cut in half too

[johnrando]

For sure. I've gotten small stuff, in a medium box, which was then packed in a bigger box. (and it wasn't like it was delicate). What a waste.

[BADCLOWN]

this is AMUUURRICA rando, we do shit in excess!

[sillieidiot]

yeah except they decided not to pack my CSL rails as well as other stuff i've gotten from them. sucked cause the rails have a 3 month wait, so they arrived damaged and i had to wait another 3 months for just one rail.

[Cadeez]

I recently got a strut brace from ECS, not a large part by any stretch. No joke, the box it came in, all by itself, was over 5' long, about 2.5' wide and about 8" deep. Seriously?? It was free shipping, so no big deal on that one but..

[johnrando]

this is AMUUURRICA rando, we do shit in excess!

:rofl

[M0nk3y]

I recently got a strut brace from ECS, not a large part by any stretch. No joke, the box it came in, all by itself, was over 5' long, about 2.5' wide and about 8" deep. Seriously?? It was free shipping, so no big deal on that one but..

Go to UPS, enter in the box dimensions and weight and let me know what it comes out to.

Shipping prices have gone up considerably. I ship a ton of boxes sometimes thru my work (commercial freight). A Lego box was easily $15 to Florida


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[Cadeez]

Go to UPS, enter in the box dimensions and weight and let me know what it comes out to.

Shipping prices have gone up considerably. I ship a ton of boxes sometimes thru my work (commercial freight). A Lego box was easily $15 to Florida


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I'm the Logistics Mgr for a display company, so I'm pretty familiar with how all the shipping works and I understand the pricing. What I was eludeing to is ECS reexamining their pkg to save everyone some $$ (I'm also the commodity Mgr for all of our my company's pkg, so I'm rather familiar with that piece as well :)) The strut brace was free shipping, so huge box or not, it didn't cost me a dime

[quikryptonite]

I got my H&R front sway bar from ECS as well. But, they just shipped it to me in the H&R box. I ordered a few others things at the same time and they came packaged separately.

[derbo]

I got my H&R front sway bar from ECS as well. But, they just shipped it to me in the H&R box. I ordered a few others things at the same time and they came packaged separately.

I wonder if it is drop shipped from H&R.

[M0nk3y]

I wonder if it is drop shipped from H&R.

Most likely is.

[Cadeez]

My sway bar came in the brown H&R box too...packaged inside of the white ECS Tuning box haha. Not sure the point of that, but so did my K&N CAI for that matter, double boxed so ECS' white carton is on the outside. Maybe in the past the sway bars were drop shipped, but now it appears they come from ECS.

[sillieidiot]

so they charge us for manufacturer shipping to them, then again for them shipping to us. no wonder it's so much