Is high mileage and proven better than low mileage and unproven?

[danewilson77]

Discuss.

High mileage/proven = >100k miles, and all maintenance related issues and preventative maintenance complete.

Low mileage/unproven = <100k miles, with zero preventative maintenance performed. Required maintenance complete (oil changes, etc...)



No flame suit required!

[mbeckel]

That's a fine line. If the milage is low enough, ie under 60k, most maintenance isn't required to a point. But I like history over mystery myself

[danewilson77]

I like that. "History over mystery ". Nice.

No flame suit required!

[BCS_ZHP]

Didn't Velma say that on Scooby Doo?

[mbeckel]

I like that. "History over mystery ". Nice.

No flame suit required!
Thanks buddy. I saw that on TV somewhere. Can't remember where, but I've been saying that for a good while.

[Vas]

Comes down to what kind of condition the exterior and interior is IMO.

[mbeckel]

Didn't Velma say that on Scooby Doo?
You may be right. Dang! I can still remember things from my childhood! Not bad considering the number of concussions on my noggin

[Jon D]

Low mileage with regular maintenance all day long is a better choice if available.

By that I mean oil, coolant, tune-ups,brake fluid etc. The big stuff like cooling system refresh is just not required. In working with my Indy mechanic he validated that it's all about time and cycles. I'm just over 50K and have not had to do any big system refreshes yet. Just normal services [fluids [all], brakes, a few bushings, intake boots. etc. But those are all mileage and age driven.

Of course a car that looks like crap was probably not maintained well so that would be off my list by default.

[slater]

I like that. "History over mystery ". Nice.

No flame suit required!

ha, me too, that is a good one!


personally... i've owned some high-mileage cars. my 1996 Audi S6 that i sold last year had 326K miles on it and was the most reliable and well-constructed (quality of materials was ridiculously good) vehicle i've ever owned (and i've had about 30).

that said, these cars are 9-12 years old now - even a low-mileage car with no history is going to require immediate maintenance - fluid flushes, cooling system overhaul, rubber suspension bits (RTABs and FCABs), etc - simply due to age.

a higher-mileage car with history, and current maintenance, could provide a more cost-effective and ownership experience.

it really depends on the car! but one should not rule out a high-mileage car simply because of the mileage..... History Over Mystery for sure!

peter

[az3579]

I'd take a car with 40k and no history (other than oil changes) over a car with 200k and some history. Here is why:

1) At 40k, there isn't much maintenance needed; most of the major stuff isn't due yet. As long as oil changes were done, even if at 15k, I'm happy. It's not enough time for any issues to occur.

2) I drive 35k a year (probably going to jump to 40 within the next year due to new job), so the younger/lower mileage the better; it'll last me longer.

3) If I pick it up at 40k with no history other than oil changes, it would be safe to treat the car as having had no work done at all. That means, I already know the full history without even having any paperwork. Even if something was done already, the mileage would be a fair indicator that it didn't have it, so worst case I'll just replace something again, no big deal.

The higher the mileage, the more question marks and variables there are of what was done and what wasn't. When you buy a higher mileage car with history, you really have to question just what the owner did to the car. Some people aren't at the same level of OCD as others, so while one may do the cooling system's major components, for example, that person may not replace certain things like the fan switch or the level sensors while someone else might replace those as well. Instead of piecemealing it, I'd rather have a car that has never had it done and be able to do the maintenance to the level I want. Another thing to note with this is that there could be items that weren't replaced that most people overlook, such as the rear main seal, diff seals, blinker fluid, or muffler bearings.


All of the above was based on my OCD. If I buy a car with part of a system (such as brakes or cooling) done but not all of it, that would really bother me. I'd rather have everything done at once rather than have to worry about the mileages on just some of the parts. It becomes very difficult to track and log what needs to be done at what intervals if it was piecemealed together.

[ItsMeScottG]

My car is at 150k and no problems here. Now that being said I've done lots of maintenance since I bought it. At this point it's in amazing condition.

[NoVAphotog]

Discuss.

High mileage/proven = >100k miles, and all maintenance related issues and preventative maintenance complete.

Low mileage/unproven = <100k miles, with zero preventative maintenance performed. Required maintenance complete (oil changes, etc...)



Good topic, I've been thinking about this myself recently so it's cool to see it posted today.

My car is an example of the latter situation. Bought with 58k on the clock, excellent service history, cared for, driven in California, etc but none of the big ticket items completed. I knew that I would be spending a good bit on top of the purchase price beginning the refresh process tailored to my high specifications.

I've since been focusing on not only required maintenance but PM as well putting it all ahead of any real modifications. Even though a lot of what I have planned (gaskets, cooling system, pulleys, CCV, etc) are not technically necessary for a few thousand more miles, I want her to be in the best shape possible. Not all of those are happening at once, but they are on the roadmap. Not to mention, regardless of the mileage the parts themselves are all 9-10 years old.

I agree with BP's point in that, deciding the maintenance roadmap and completing all of it to your own ideals when the time comes is a big plus to a lower mileage car. Additionally, the pressure isn't as high as far as the completion timeline is concerned so that is a plus as well.

Miles aren't really a factor in the cosmetic department if the car was cared for accordingly (washed regularly, detailed, etc). I love keeping mine in the relatively immaculate state that she is in, but other than the obvious wear points, a higher mileage car can look just as good with minor refreshments and a solid detail as we see with each others cars on here everyday!

The modification department is where a lot of the difference resides, at least financially. As much as I'd love to put an LSD in or drop her on coilovers it just doesn't make sense IMO to upgrade parts at 63k that not only work well but are clean and have a good amount of life left.

Purchase a car with 100k+ with big ticket items done, not only are you paying less up front opening up room in the treasury, but any mod that you do is "refreshing/upgrading" at the same time, coilovers are a great example of this. Obviously, that has more to do with personal bankroll than anything else, but still, it depends on what direction you want for your car as well.

I think a lot of issues can affect mine just the same as a higher mileage ZHP; electronic quirks, leaks, weird rattles, warning lights, etc, etc. My goal/direction with my car is to prevent as many of those as possible, but in the end, by nature of these vehicles and the years that have elapsed since the last ZHP rolled off the assembly line, the low mileage is both a blessing and a curse.

[Oli77]

Depends, and I agree with all points made above.

Say it was 2010 and I wanted to buy a used e46, given that all had 4 years/50K miles warranties and they stopped production in 05-06, I would want a car as close to 50 K miles as possible because it must have been taken care off by a dealer for free. If there were 1-2 years with an extra 10-20 K miles, I would still feel comfortable because of the proximity to the end of the warranty (assuming no one is driving 50 K miles/year) and I might spend more money for a car closer to 50 K.

Say it is 2015, however, I would look more carefully and consider an e46 with documented reliability and maintenance with higher miles. Undocumented higher miles is a dangerous walk to walk.

Between these 2 scenarios, the prices would have been very different, with scenario 1 costing much more than scenario 2.

[az3579]

Say it was 2010 and I wanted to buy a used e46, given that all had 4 years/50K miles warranties and they stopped production in 05-06, I would want a car as close to 50 K miles as possible because it must have been taken care off by a dealer for free.

This isn't always the case. Dealers will get out of as much as they can. If you take the car to a dealer to replace something preventatively under warranty, they're probably going to laugh you out of the service department. Could a tech please chime in on this?

[mbeckel]

This isn't always the case. Dealers will get out of as much as they can. If you take the car to a dealer to replace something preventatively under warranty, they're probably going to laugh you out of the service department. Could a tech please chime in on this?
Warranty doesn't cover wear and tear parts. Only catastrophic failure

[Oli77]

Yes, but if something important had happened in the first fifty K miles, it would have been corrected appropriately hopefully.

[mbeckel]

Yes, but if something important had happened in the first fifty K miles, it would have been corrected appropriately hopefully.
Typically if it's something that major, it's a defect from the factory, and it gets recalled

[BavarianZHP]

Ah... If I had to choose I would go with lower mileage but it's dependent like all others said. The type of miles count too! If they were all HIGHWAY miles than I would take it over a low city dweller.

Highway mileage actually does wonders for a car. My parents live off of HWY 20 up in the cascades and you can drive for hours without ever completely stopping... Saves brakes, saves gas, saves clutch, saves suspension, and the roads are smooth and the air is clean. Now, going 20 miles in downtown Seattle is like the equivalent of 100 miles HWY in wear and tear I feel.

BUT the best is getting a car from an enthusiast... Specifically a vetted ZHPmafia member! If I had to do it all over again (and I lucked out big time with my purchase) or if I had to give a close family member advise in purchasing a ZHP it would be without a doubt: Buy from an enthusiast who takes care of the car.

[danewilson77]

I'd take a car with 40k and no history (other than oil changes) over a car with 200k and some history. Here is why:

1) At 40k, there isn't much maintenance needed; most of the major stuff isn't due yet. As long as oil changes were done, even if at 15k, I'm happy. It's not enough time for any issues to occur.

2) I drive 35k a year (probably going to jump to 40 within the next year due to new job), so the younger/lower mileage the better; it'll last me longer.

3) If I pick it up at 40k with no history other than oil changes, it would be safe to treat the car as having had no work done at all. That means, I already know the full history without even having any paperwork. Even if something was done already, the mileage would be a fair indicator that it didn't have it, so worst case I'll just replace something again, no big deal.

The higher the mileage, the more question marks and variables there are of what was done and what wasn't. When you buy a higher mileage car with history, you really have to question just what the owner did to the car. Some people aren't at the same level of OCD as others, so while one may do the cooling system's major components, for example, that person may not replace certain things like the fan switch or the level sensors while someone else might replace those as well. Instead of piecemealing it, I'd rather have a car that has never had it done and be able to do the maintenance to the level I want. Another thing to note with this is that there could be items that weren't replaced that most people overlook, such as the rear main seal, diff seals, blinker fluid, or muffler bearings.


All of the above was based on my OCD. If I buy a car with part of a system (such as brakes or cooling) done but not all of it, that would really bother me. I'd rather have everything done at once rather than have to worry about the mileages on just some of the parts. It becomes very difficult to track and log what needs to be done at what intervals if it was piecemealed together.
I said "all". You said "some".

No flame suit required!

[derbo]

Here is some food for thought:

BMW CPO program has a specific guideline on which cars are eligible for certification. There is a chart labeling how many oil changes the vehicle requires on it's service history before it is eligible for certification. It is based on how old the car is and how many miles. A lot of people do not do annual oil changes and it hurts a 3 year old car with 10k miles on it for certification.

Some cars do not meet the requirement by 1 oil change and would require pictures of the engine (valve cover removed) sent to BMW NA to determine eligibility. I believe they are concern with sludge and degradation of old oil.



Now would I take a low mileage with no maintenance or a high mileage with plenty? It's a tough one. I personally wouldn't care too much and more concern about the body at that point. The engine with low mileage will require a fresh start from me and the high mileage one will not. I would take that into consideration if I was planning to make the purchase.

[az3579]

I said "all". You said "some".

No flame suit required!

If you think about it, it goes either way. Everything I said applies even to cars with 200k and full service history. A full service history means that there are records of everything done to the car. That doesn't mean that everything was actually done on the car, depending on what items were "missed", so most of my points are still valid for this viewpoint.

If that 200k car had every... single... item... replaced in a system that requires service at some point, then I'd definitely go for the 200k car. But, that 200k car better have been maintained by an absolute maintenance nut with severe OCD.

[tkundhi]

I said "all". You said "some".

No flame suit required!

It isn't that cut and dry. The reality is "all maintenance" is entirely subjective. Even BMW no longer provides a definitive guide. Take oil changes did the owner follow the lights or some other schedule. Note I am over simplifying here.

Another example, coolant system. Spec on the coolant is flush every two years. Commonly accepted intervals are 60k for hose and water pump replacement . Now what about the expansion reservoir, and radiator? Still subjective.

To complicate this scenario even further is the quality of work and parts used. All parts and not the same. OEM is not the same as OE or BMW. Preventive maintenance with inferior parts is just slightly better than no maintenance. I personally won't buy parts from several of the parts vendors commonly mentioned. The reason is you don't know what you are getting. Even well established, reputable places like BimmerWorld and Pelican sell different quality parts. They are running a business and understand that some people care less about quality and more about price. I don't fault them for that but just take the time to know what you are buying. If you have questions, call them and ask. For folks that don't have time to do all the research then buy from a dealer. Several sell online or via mail order at very competitive prices.

I try to limit my purchase to low mileage cars with documented maintenance history. It is worth a premium to me.

t.

t.

[danewilson77]

Yes. Subjective. Therefore "all" is whatever that means to you.

No flame suit required!

[mbeckel]

There are many variables that need to be considered. Everyone has made great points

[Smilez]

When I see high mileage I have to check what year the car was made. Out here there is tons of highway driving. When I was going to school, work, and back home i would travel just shy of 100 miles a day. I would do about 2k miles per month.

Bought my e46 in 2006 with 49k miles. I have 251k miles. So on average I drive 25k miles per year. It's alot less now.

Hard to chose which I prefer. Newer car with more mileage than an older car with less mileage. :dunno

[pilotnick1203]

All I know is I bought a higher milage ZHP, and it's been a maintenance pit. Even though it was one owner the owner stopped giving a sh!t about it so I got it with hiding transmission leaks, huge dents etc. I've fixed this all by now, annoying nonetheless.


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[slater]

All I know is I bought a higher milage ZHP, and it's been a maintenance pit. Even though it was one owner the owner stopped giving a sh!t about it so I got it with hiding transmission leaks, huge dents etc. I've fixed this all by now, annoying nonetheless.


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well, that was kind of your fault, no? you didn't have to buy that particular car.

peter

[BCS_ZHP]

I'm an old fart so I tell the younger guys there's a difference between being able to buy a BMW and being able to afford a BMW. I equate a BMW to a very classy lady, if you take care of her, she'll return it in spades. And if you don't, you'll deal with a woman scorned who will bite you whenever she gets a chance. In both cases, if you take care of things properly, even after the fact just thinking back on the fun you've had together will bring a big smile to your face.

[mLuMaN83]

Been reading this since the beginning. What an interesting thread.

[pilotnick1203]

well, that was kind of your fault, no? you didn't have to buy that particular car.

peter

Right I admit to that... I should have waited for the right one. I got too hung up in the fact it was 1 owner and original window sticker. Won't settle for another auto box that's for sure lol


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[Simmsled]

At what point does the car become too tired, even if it has been immaculately maintained?
If in the rust belt, and driven during winter, it would seem that the body would rust away before all of the mechanicals were beyond their effective service life.
Dunno what could really be done to save the body, but I would have to say a low mile car with limited service history would be my choice inside the rust belt.
Outside the rust belt... the car that was better maintained, regardless of mileage, would be my choice.

[D1ESEL]

Miles mean a decent amount to me in my ZHP mainly because I plan to hold onto the car.

My last e46 had 198k on it with regular maintenance and it is still being driven by my buddies GF and has over 215k on it.

I honestly think a m5x car should run for ever as long as it is never over heated and well cared for.