Anyone going to a track day in Nor Cal June or July 2014?

[LivesNearCostco]

Just checking if any of you are going to track days in Nor Cal in June or July. We have coming up:

Trackmasters at Thunderhill May 23-24 (Saturday sold out)
NASA Nor Cal at Thunderhill May 23-24 (with Trackmasters)
Trackmasters at Sonoma May 31-June 1
Speed Ventures at Sonoma May 31-June 1 (with Trackmasters)
BMW CCA at Laguna Seca May 31st -- sold out
NASA So. Cal at Buttonwillow June 7-8
NASA Nor Cal at Sonoma June 14-15
Speed Ventures at Willow Springs, June 28
NASA So Cal at Willow Springs July 12-13
Speed Ventures at Laguna Seca, July 18-20
NASA Nor Cal at Laguna Seca, July 26-27
Speed Ventures at Buttonwillow, July 26-27


I'll be at the BMW event May 31st and hope to do one of the NASA events either June 7-8 Buttonwillow or June 14-15 Sonoma.

[derbo]

Jon,

July 26th Buttonwillow Speed Ventures. I am there for sure!

SpeedSF July 6 or 7th is T-Hill's new *5Mile Course*. I am debating going to this one.


Sent from my iPad

[stephenkirsh]

I'm attempting to do track masters autocross at Sonoma on Saturday. They may cancel due to low turn out :(



Whats the difference between track masters and speed ventures? They're both running Sonoma this weekend.

[derbo]

I'm attempting to do track masters autocross at Sonoma on Saturday. They may cancel due to low turn out :(



Whats the difference between track masters and speed ventures? They're both running Sonoma this weekend.


It might be a joint host to split the costs of renting Sears Point. Sears I believe on the weekend is $25k min.

[LivesNearCostco]

Derek, great I hope to do that event too and see you at Buttonwillow, should be HOT weather.

Stephen, yes TM and SV are sharing the event. I think they are running the same run groups and charging the same amount, though possibly with different discount options. Sometimes they run with NASA and have their own dedicated run group where they charge more than NASA but have fewer cars in that group so it's less crowded.

[stephenkirsh]

Ah, interesting. What ever works. I just hope the autox on Sunday isn't canceled!

[derbo]

Derek, great I hope to do that event too and see you at Buttonwillow, should be HOT weather.

Stephen, yes TM and SV are sharing the event. I think they are running the same run groups and charging the same amount, though possibly with different discount options. Sometimes they run with NASA and have their own dedicated run group where they charge more than NASA but have fewer cars in that group so it's less crowded.

Jon,

I'm not sure what I am planning to do about my brake pad situation. Currently I am on Stoptech Street/Track pads up front and BMW OEM rear. I have not purchased new brake pads yet.

[Johal E32]

Ah, interesting. What ever works. I just hope the autox on Sunday isn't canceled!

I think it is.. I was gonna roll through and auto-x but I guess its cancelled.

Wanted to try out the 26mm sway I installed up front.. LOL

[stephenkirsh]

What makes you say it's canceled?

[stephenkirsh]

I think it is.. I was gonna roll through and auto-x but I guess its cancelled.

Wanted to try out the 26mm sway I installed up front.. LOL

I just got the email this morning confirming Saturday's schedule. Looks like it's on to me!

[Johal E32]

I just got the email this morning confirming Saturday's schedule. Looks like it's on to me!

I checked track masters, its on for saturday not sunday :/

[stephenkirsh]

Yup. Were you planning on doing Sunday?

[Johal E32]

Yup. Were you planning on doing Sunday?

Yeah..

I will auto-x with SCCA next time they are in Oakland if anyone is down? I think sometime in July, not sure.

[derbo]

btw, Speed Ventures just opened up registration to BW July 26/27th!

[derbo]

Derek, great I hope to do that event too and see you at Buttonwillow, should be HOT weather.

Stephen, yes TM and SV are sharing the event. I think they are running the same run groups and charging the same amount, though possibly with different discount options. Sometimes they run with NASA and have their own dedicated run group where they charge more than NASA but have fewer cars in that group so it's less crowded.


I'm officially registered for July 26th Saturday at Buttonwillow! :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Upcoming track days for Nor Cal include...
July 18-20: Speed Ventures at Laguna Seca. $290 for Friday or Sunday, $320 for Saturday.
July 20: ReFuel electric car/bike event at Laguna Seca (tied with Speed Ventures)
July 26-27: NASA at Laguna Seca. HPDE 3/4 still have openings but no HPDE 1/2. $369 one day, $539 for 2 days.
July 26-27: Speed Ventures at Buttonwillow (repaved)

I plan to drive at Buttonwillow July 26-27 and learn something from Derbo! I might go watch/volunteer at the Refuel event July 20th.

[stephenkirsh]

No love for Sonoma huh.

[derbo]

Upcoming track days for Nor Cal include...
July 18-20: Speed Ventures at Laguna Seca. $290 for Friday or Sunday, $320 for Saturday.
July 20: ReFuel electric car/bike event at Laguna Seca (tied with Speed Ventures)
July 26-27: NASA at Laguna Seca. HPDE 3/4 still have openings but no HPDE 1/2. $369 one day, $539 for 2 days.
July 26-27: Speed Ventures at Buttonwillow (repaved)

I plan to drive at Buttonwillow July 26-27 and learn something from Derbo! I might go watch/volunteer at the Refuel event July 20th.


Awesome! Did you sign up yet? I'm in group Green. I haven't driven with Speedventures in a few years so this might be interesting if this group is ridiculously fast.. If you haven't signed up yet, you can use "Tom Tang" as a discount code.



No love for Sonoma huh.


July's Schedule doesn't even have a road course booked in there. It's probably too expensive. Last I heard, base price to rent the course for a day was $25k.

http://www.racesonoma.com/schedule/raceway/

Next one is trackmasters 9/20-21.

They are pretty expensive as well. I believe last time I did it, it was like $370 or so for a single day.

[stephenkirsh]

I think I've seen track masters at Sonoma for $300/320 for a weekend day

[derbo]

I think I've seen track masters at Sonoma for $300/320 for a weekend day

I take that back, I paid $320 for a SpeedVentures/Trackmasters Collab day about 2 years ago.

[Johal E32]

cough

http://www.nasaproracing.com/event/1778

Plan to run HPDE-1 but its a maybe.. IDK if I want to revive my car in time, get an alignment and maybe some better tires ugh..

180 for a track day at sears point/sonoma

[stephenkirsh]

That's pretty good. I think you get a lot more runs in with track masters, though.

Can you just join NASA online to do that, or is there something else that must be done?

[Johal E32]

Not sure, with NASA you get I think 4 - 20min sessions, thats plenty for me.

theres also NCRC with I think 5 -20 minute sessions also for $180. Kind of pricey like NASA but still pretty good!

[derbo]

I never driven with NASA before. Do I need to start at HPDE1 and move up?


I think I found my answer. I want to be Group 4.


Group 3:
This is for the more experienced track driver. You must have had at least a
weekend of Group 1/2 and be qualified to be on your own (without an instructor).
You MUST list your experience on the entry form / online entry form under
“Please describe your previous driving experience: events and schools attended,
licenses, etc.” Leaving this blank or otherwise having inadequate experience will
be cause for “adjustments.”

Group 4:
This is the most advanced group and passing is allowed everywhere. This group
is best suited for VERY experienced drivers, such as those that have had at least
three weekends or prior experience on track.

[stephenkirsh]

Not sure, with NASA you get I think 4 - 20min sessions, thats plenty for me.

theres also NCRC with I think 5 -20 minute sessions also for $180. Kind of pricey like NASA but still pretty good!

$180 is the cheapest I've seen for Sonoma.

[Johal E32]

$180 is the cheapest I've seen for Sonoma.

Hmm, I guess it is cheapest for Sonoma.. I can't decide if I should sign up now or what.. I'd love to try it, and then do T-hill a few times this year as well.

My car is out of commission, starter motor (PITA to replace) is all messed up and keeps spinning while my car is on.. I would need some new tires (Hankook RS3 to replace the all seasons), and then maybe a new battery. For sure need a better/new alignment. Too much toe and negative camber in the rear..

[derbo]

Hmm, I guess it is cheapest for Sonoma.. I can't decide if I should sign up now or what.. I'd love to try it, and then do T-hill a few times this year as well.

My car is out of commission, starter motor (PITA to replace) is all messed up and keeps spinning while my car is on.. I would need some new tires (Hankook RS3 to replace the all seasons), and then maybe a new battery. For sure need a better/new alignment. Too much toe and negative camber in the rear..


My cousin is planning to so 9/27 Sears with NASA. I am debating if I want to sign up for NASA membership /($45/year) and then pay the $180 for the day. I would most likely go to HDPE3 and attempt to move to HDPE4 if I feel like I can.

[stephenkirsh]

Derbo, what's your experience with track days? I'm curious what it takes to get up to level 4.

[derbo]

Derbo, what's your experience with track days? I'm curious what it takes to get up to level 4.

E-racing since 1999, HDPEs for 4 years now. I moved to the "Advanced" Group probably 2 years ago. Advanced is basically just open-pass-anywhere type of HDPE session. It's not a full-race environment but it's as close as you will get without getting competitive with the guys on the track.

I would say I have about 20+ trackdays. One thing is that, everyone progresses at a different pace. I jumped to "Intermediate" 2nd track day cause I felt comfortable to move up. Others may take 2-3 days or even more to move up.

[LivesNearCostco]

I've driven NASA 1 at Sonoma and HPDE 1, 2, and 3 at Buttonwillow (also HPDE 1 at AutoClub Speedway and Willow Springs). I don't think anyone legitimately in HPDE4 gets there with just 3 track weekends! Maybe the 1 in 1000 wunderkind could do it well, but I think even the very talented need at least 10 track days (or 5 weekends) to get to HPDE4.

Being not so talented myself, I have more than 20 track days and don't feel comfortable going to HPDE4, but last time I did NASA, HPDE3 was good for me. Also I'm fine with point-by passing anywhere on track but not with open passing (no point-bys). Derbo is faster than me so HPDE4 may be fine for him. NASA sometimes mixes HPDE4 with the time trial group, and the TT guys not only tend to be fast, they WANT to go fast, to win free tires or brake pads or accumulate season points.

Officially you need to get signed off by NASA to get from HPDE 1 to 2 (easy) then from 2 to 3 (might be hard, never happened for me), but often you can just register for HPDE3 and tell the group leader you have enough experience. If they think you can't handle it, they'll bump you back down to HPDE 2. One day I just signed up for HPDE3. You don't have to be really fast (I'm not) as long as you are aware of who's around you and generous with point-bys when faster drivers come along.

Once I saw a driver who was too fast for HPDE2 (or at least too fast for the HPDE1 beginners who run with 2) but not ready for HPDE3 and he ended up being a very frustrated guy that day.


Hey Derbo, still going to Buttonwillow this weekend?

[derbo]

John (right?)

I am! See you there? I'm only there Saturday.

[stephenkirsh]

Good write up Costco (john?) :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Yes, I'm John. I will be there Saturday, possibly both Saturday and Sunday.

Edit: Hope to catch a ride in Derek's car to pick up some pointers!

[derbo]

I'm a bit rusty at CW13. I haven't been to BW in 2 years but hopefully I can be helpful to you improving!


Video for fun! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztl6BAQsS_0

[stephenkirsh]

Buttonwillow is near Bakersfield right?

[derbo]

Buttonwillow is near Bakersfield right?

About 20 miles north of it..


John,

http://www.speedventures.com/events/attendees.aspx?id=-1999999193

I dont see you on the list!

[derbo]

It was way too hot. Afternoon session air temperatures was 106f

It was good to meet you John!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/27/uneme9e5.jpg


sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[stephenkirsh]

Are you required to put the tow hooks on incase you crash?

Looking forward to johns videos in YouTube. Every time I search "zhp" and a track his videos show up first :)

[derbo]

Are you required to put the tow hooks on incase you crash?

Looking forward to johns videos in YouTube. Every time I search "zhp" and a track his videos show up first :)


but not mine? :( lolll


Yes. Tow hooks are there so that its easy in case you go off course and get stuck.

[stephenkirsh]

I only have one... Do you need them on both ends or just the back?

[derbo]

They recommend both ends. I tend to just put it on the back and leave the cover off the front.

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[stephenkirsh]

Gotcha. I should get a giant blue aluminum one and keep it on all the time like the civic ricers :P

[derbo]

Gotcha. I should get a giant blue aluminum one and keep it on all the time like the civic ricers :P

http://www.bimmian.com/Mechunik-Aluminum-Tow-Hook-for-BMW-E46-3-Series

http://www.bimmian.com/elements/product.htm/showcase/ATH/ML_020.jpg


Found you one. Be sure to cut a nice hole in your tow hook cover for a more flush look :)


I actually want a strap with the tow hook cover cut out with a slit so it looks cleaner.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-2731-turner-motorsport-nylon-tow-strap-with-bolt-red-blue-black.aspx?utm_source=goog_product&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=TMI9020TSI&gclid=CjwKEAjwxtKeBRDMzoeQmYn5uHcSJACGCF3DUVL7-D1OPVi7Pgcx2oMDSK1LxUHnOPDlIFxSxrIkFhoC9Qrw_wcB

[LivesNearCostco]

Thanks to Derbo for giving me a ride in his car yesterday at the track. Now I have some idea why he is faster than me! Also thanks for riding with me. I had an unfortunate contact incident in my 3rd session. "Unfortunate" means bad judgment (mostly mine) met with bad luck, and Derbo got to see my rear tow hook being put to use.

I tell my co-workers the red AKG Motorsport tow hooks are mostly for looks, but yesterday it did get used. I have HPDE insurance with a somewhat large deductible so will talk to them on Monday to see how we proceed.

[Hornung418]

Sorry for the bad luck John. It happens and that's why we have insurance! :)

Sent from my GS3.

[derbo]

I'm glad you have that insurance John! You have made me think about getting it next time I go. Even if the deductible is high, its better than losing a whole car.



https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10537882_10152600832583482_7899703690764070434_n.j pg




If you want me take these down, let me know John. I hate that we met this way but next time I hope you can improve your times! :)

[johnrando]

Sorry to hear John. It happens.

[stephenkirsh]

Oh no :(

How much is HPDE insurance usually?

[LivesNearCostco]

Hey everyone thanks for the kind words. HPDE insurance sometimes feels expensive but after this, it feels cheap! The premium cost depends on the declared value of your vehicle (including declared mods). If it's a BMW CCA, Porsche Club of America, or other certain club events (I think Audi Club) there is an additional discount. Some tracks with a higher claims rate are more expensive on single-event policies. The biggest limitations that I've seen so far to the Lockton Affinity HPDE insurance are 1) High deductible and 2) Don't cover time trial events, such as NASA TT. The minimum deductible is $2000 or 10% of declared value, whichever is higher.

I've used HPDE insurance on and off (mostly on) for 4 years and it's my first claim so I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I recently spoke to a Porsche owner the day after he tagged a tire wall and even though he also had HPDE insurance, he wasn't expecting to file a claim because his estimated repair costs ($1000-$4000) were much lower than his 10% or 15% deductible.

Derbo, please pull the pictures of my car. You can leave the picture of the skid marks on the track and absorbent as a lesson to me about good judgement in point-by passing. (BTW I'm the guy in the blue long-sleeve shirt.) Once I get the claim resolved and all, we can share the pictures, maybe even video if I captured it on the GoPro.

[derbo]

Done. I think you were recording so I wonder how the video ended up. How much is your deductible?

Good luck with it! Keep us posted. :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Derek, thanks, and also thanks for all your support right after the incident. My deductible is $2000. If I had a $70,000 car with a $7,000 or $12,500 deductible, it would be more painful but then I would still be able to afford it because... $70,000 car! My experience has been that HPDE insurance premium for a declared value of $12,000 to $15,000 ranged from $95 to $130 per event, and it's the same cost whether it's a 1-day or 2-day event. It's a very good deal for a 2-day event and it also covers your instructor (if instructor drives your car) and up to one co-driver sharing your car. Cost is lower if you buy a 6-pack or 10-pack but then you have to use all 6 of them within one year.

I will review the video later to better understand my mistake(s) here.

If anyone is wondering why the track looks whitish, it's brand new asphalt done less than 2 weeks prior and they were putting a protective white powder on the track each night. The ivory colored powder is oil absorbent to soak up the coolant I dropped.

[derbo]

No problem. I am just glad we all did not have any injuries to report. The deductible is not bad considering the set value is around 12-15k! Hopefully the damage repairs costs are low.

[stephenkirsh]

Do you think the freshly laid pavement was too smooth/not grippy enough?

[LivesNearCostco]

Hard to say. Fresh pavement is smoother but old pavement also has some months of oil droppings (since last rain) and rubber tire bits embedded. Not sure if fresh pavement is oilier than old. The white powder did make it slipperier in areas off the driving line. That might have been one of my mistakes--driving offline onto an area with more white powder to facilitate the pass. Then again maybe I just lifted in the wrong spot and that let the rear wheels break loose.

Derek what do you think? You drove 3 sessions yourself and rode with at least one other driver besides me. Was it less grippy everywhere or only offline?

Also you're right it wasn't so bad in the greater scheme of things.

[derbo]

Hard to say. Fresh pavement is smoother but old pavement also has some months of oil droppings (since last rain) and rubber tire bits embedded. Not sure if fresh pavement is oilier than old. The white powder did make it slipperier in areas off the driving line. That might have been one of my mistakes--driving offline onto an area with more white powder to facilitate the pass. Then again maybe I just lifted in the wrong spot and that let the rear wheels break loose.

Derek what do you think? You drove 3 sessions yourself and rode with at least one other driver besides me. Was it less grippy everywhere or only offline?

Also you're right it wasn't so bad in the greater scheme of things.

I drove about 4 sessions and in the morning I think it was definitely more slippery than before. The temperatures of the track contributed to my tires overheating quite quickly. It's really hard to remember what exactly happened as I was not driving when it happened. I just remember you were heading to the outside and the speed was for the racing line not the offline. The white powder and the speed carried into the corner going offline may have been the reason the rear end decides to step over the limit.

When you have a chance perhaps you can review the video? I believe you were recording so hopefully that may bring some insight on what exactly happened from your POV.

[derbo]

John,

Mike from Buttonwillow made a statement.


Gentleman-
Let me start off by introducing myself, my name is Mike Miserendino and I work for Buttonwillow Raceway. I know a few of you on this forum, but most I do not. It is great to see all the interest and enthusiasm you have for BRP. Before this thread gets too far “out of whack” we (the race track) want to give some factual data that will hopefully clear up some issues people have.
I was on site as the event manager this weekend during the Speed Ventures event and made the decision to put up cones in 2 locations Saturday afternoon and 1 location Sunday afternoon. I will address this decision later, but first I want to give background on the entire paving project.
To say the repaving project was a big deal is an understatement. It was as big of a project as when the place was built nearly 20 years ago. Portions of the track have been repaved over the years, but never the entire place. Our longest configuration measures just over 3 miles, but when you add up all the different options and connections, there are 4.47 miles of asphalt at BRP. We have 49 curbs totaling over 6600 linear feet or 1.25 miles. Some curbs were salvaged, but many had to be replaced. Many of the curbs were lengthened and widened. The amount of concrete needed to fill some of the longer curbs is huge. For example, it took 1 truck (9.5 yards of concrete) just to fill the apex curb at Sunrise and the apex curb at Off Ramp. Obviously not all curbs are that big, but you get the idea.
There have been some questions about the repaving procedure we used. The single biggest problem we face is our native soil. Simply put, our dirt sucks. It’s expansive and has the poorest possible basic structure. These poor characteristics create the cracks and bumps many disliked about the track. Not everyone hated the bumps, but the biggest commentary came from the motorcycle community. We spent a lot of money and time on lab tests and studies with soil experts. Our best option to remedy the issues was to go over the top of our existing surface. The same thing will happen with the next repave. Over time the track will get thicker and thicker and our soil will become less damaging to the track as it expands and contracts through the seasons. Before the asphalt was laid down, most of the problem bump areas were ground down so that as the paver made its pass, a thick layer of asphalt was laid. Depending on the location, over 3 inches (measured when compacted) of new asphalt was placed. Close to 8500 TONS of asphalt was needed for the whole track. That is not just a “slurry” or a top coat. The race track will never be 100% bump free. Unfortunately we can’t fold the race track up and carry it to a new location so we have to deal with our land as best as we can. Some regarded the track as old and beat up due to lack of maintenance. That actually is not the case. The track gets inspected and cleaned every day there is track activity. Most of this is never witnessed because it has to be done early in the morning, or late at night.
Before the project even began, test batches of asphalt were put through extensive lab tests and engineers directed us to have a minimum of 3 days cure time. The pavement on the 13 CW configuration used this weekend was completed on July 10. That is 16 days prior to this Saturday. We had a motorcycle event on July 19 and the midweek track activity leading up to this weekend included a Formula Ford, a F2000 open wheel car, multiple Porsche Cup cars and a few Spec Miatas. The track was monitored very closely and no problems were observed. Myself, and our track president Les Phillips gathered as much feedback as possible through the week. We are both racers also and have a pretty good understanding of what the track is supposed to feel like. I personally spoke at length with a driver of one of the Porsche Cup cars and there were zero concerns about the grip level and they kept going faster and faster as the day progressed. This is typically not the trend. I won’t name the driver, but I can tell you that their resume includes wins at the 24 Hours of Daytona, 12 Hours of Sebring and multiple podiums at Le Mans.
The application of the lime on the track served 2 purposes. First, the color helped reduce the heat of the surface and second, it helps with the grip by treating the surface and minimizing the loose fines that inhibit grip. The lime was mixed into our water truck and then sprayed onto the track at night. It was not applied in powder form. The normal track sweeping procedure was then followed each morning. If you haven’t seen our sweeper tractor, there is a giant rotary broom on the front and a powerful blower on the back. How powerful? You will be blown over if you stand in front of it, seriously. Any concern of the lime causing rain like conditions can be dismissed. The surface is brand new, there is no rubber down. Also, the first session of any day is not ideal. No heat in the track, car, tires, etc. With the volume of cars at the event this past weekend, I did not think the offs were more than normal. I spent quite a bit of time watching from various locations and did witness a number of offs. I am no Sebastien Vettel, but I know my way pretty decent around a track and I can tell you most of the offs were driver induced.
If you were here this weekend, you know how hot it was. If you were relaxing pool side somewhere, smart move, but let me tell you, it was HOT. The cones in Off Ramp and Cotton Corners were a preventive measure more than anything. I worked closely with the Speed Ventures staff and was aware of all the timed competitions. Once the competitions were done I elected to place cones in those 2 areas to prevent any catastrophic pavement problems. The polymer was also applied as a precaution. It is not every day that the temps reach 105 and up. As for the grip level on the polymer, most of the entire track had it on before the repave. This should also have been a non issue. On Sunday, we had to push back the start time 1 hour because the cloud cover was blocking the sun and the polymer wasn’t drying fast enough. We had staff stay until 11 PM Saturday night and some of those very same staff members were back in at 5 AM.
As mentioned before, we way exceeded the time restriction for the pavement curing outlined by the asphalt engineers and experts. It was not a decision based off of greed or a need for revenue to put cars on the track. Earlier this week highs were in the low 90s, damn near pleasant. Mother Nature is something we are not in control of and unfortunately it made it hard on us this weekend. We have agreements with customers like Speed Ventures that we need to honor. Canceling events is not something we do. When we build our second race track, which is already in the planning process, we will have no prior commitments and the track will cure for a month? 2 months? Whatever is needed.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Hopefully this answers some questions out there. We appreciate the support you give our great facility and the support you give our customers who hold events here. Feel free to share this info on other forums or web outlets.
Sincerely,
Mike Miserendino
Buttonwillow Raceway Park

I guess the white stuff was lime? It seems that the lack of rubber in the off-lines and high speed in turn 5 may have contributed to your incident happening.

[stephenkirsh]

So did mike see this thread and send that to you?

I wasn't even aware of a repaving project and never meat to imply the track was unsafe/not up to par.

I've never been on a freshly paved race track, but I've been on freshly paved (and dry/clean) public roads days/weeks/months after and they always feel less grippy to me, whether or not that's actually true. That was the basis of my question.

[LivesNearCostco]

Yeah interested where/why he posted or emailed that. I'm sure some other attendees complained, rightly or wrongly. The track was definitely less bumpy than before. Offline is usually less grip in the dry and more grip in the wet. I'm assuming that was still the case here, but am not sure. I might have caused my tail wag by lifting off the throttle but don't have the data acquisition or butt dyno sensitivity to know for sure.

[danewilson77]

I don't think he posted that here.

The friendliest forum on the planet.

[derbo]

He didn't post it here. I saw this on track junkies group on Facebook


edit:


http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f13/repaving-buttonwillow-summer-7410/index7.html


As for the rest of you at TrackHQ, if you don't know who Mike Miserendino is, aside from being a new dad he is a multiple winner of the SCCA Spec Racer Ford National Championship. SRF regularly has the largest fields nationwide and it is the fiercest of competition and close racing in SCCA. Winning the SRF national title is a large feat. Winning it multiple times is amazing. I think Mike also won the Triple Crown in 2010 for winning his region, the June Sprints and the Runoffs. He knows how to drive and he knows how to race.

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[LivesNearCostco]

Insurance appraiser coming over today. Also talked to a recommended body shop owner who does a lot of German cars. He said if rail tips can be straightened, fine, but if they need replacement, the insurance company will most likely total it. I should make this a separate build/repair thread!

[stephenkirsh]

What's a rail tip?

[danewilson77]

What's a rail tip?
Frame rail.

The friendliest forum on the planet!

[derbo]

Insurance appraiser coming over today. Also talked to a recommended body shop owner who does a lot of German cars. He said if rail tips can be straightened, fine, but if they need replacement, the insurance company will most likely total it. I should make this a separate build/repair thread!



You should! Hopefully alot of parts are salvagable if it is totaled :(

[LivesNearCostco]

Good news is it appears my policy will cover up to the stated value, minus deductible, rather than the market/book value. Bad news is appraiser raised his estimate of repair cost a lot after seeing car in person. After the insurance company reviews his estimate, I will take it to a body shop to see what they say. If they total it, I will be sad, but that is a possibility at this point.

It does not seem conceivable that such a light impact (perception wise) could total the car, but apparently if the frame rails are bent more than a certain amount, the front sections have to be cut out and new ones welded or riveted in, and that's very expensive.

If they total it and I buy it back, I would want to find a ZHP that was totaled after being hit from behind and buy all the parts from the front of the engine forward. I can't believe how many plastic bits there are in, around, or behind the front bumper.

[derbo]

Glad to hear the policy will cover it at least to the state value. This definitely is a lot better than regular car insurance and it seems to have been in your favor even if it means your ZHP is totaled. Good luck John! It definitely was a very light impact but it may have been alot stronger than we think cause it hit a car with a roll cage.

[Vas]

Interested in how this plays out. Good luck

[LivesNearCostco]

Well just describing the damage over the phone the appraiser guesstimated $5K to $8K, and a body shop guy said the same after looking at pictures. But once the appraiser showed up and took a really close look, he guesstimated it will be totaled due to frame rail damage (plus bumper, headlights, radiator, steering rack, hood, fender, plastic pieces, etc.)

The body shop guy, who hasn't seen pictures of the frame rails yet, said if the frame rails can be straightened it should be affordable to fix, but if the front portion of the frame rails need to be replaced, it will likely be totaled. Currently waiting for insurance company to review repair estimate.

[derbo]

This whole incident has got me to thinking that the insurance is a must for next time I go.

[LivesNearCostco]

Insurance company totaled it on assumption both frame rail ends must be replaced and that all replacement parts have to be either new genuine BMW or "quality recycled" genuine BMW. I have a discount body shop guy coming to look at the car this afternoon to give his opinion if they can be straightened instead, and give estimate for repairing it using after market new or recycled genuine BMW parts where possible. I'm fine with after market bumper cover, fog lights, corner lights (they were Depo anyway), eBay genuine headlights, used radiator support, aftermarket radiator, etc.

Buy-back price is 23% of declared/insured value. If I buy back to repair, I will argue that is absurd. They surveyed salvage auction prices for E46 330s and found average of 23% recovery, which seems reasonable. But I don't see that as being 23% of declared value (which this policy is) but 23% of market value for non-salvage.

Edit: Derbo, please go ahead and repost the pictures you took of my car after the event. I just ask that you black out my license plate if it's visible in any of the pictures.

[stephenkirsh]

Bummer :/

Any video yet?

[LivesNearCostco]

I want to wait until the insurance claim is finalized before posting the video. But I've invited Derbo to post the post-accident pictures he has.

[stephenkirsh]

Sounds good

[derbo]

I think I posted pics in his total thread but here they are again.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/19/udusu2yb.jpg


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/19/ja6y2ehe.jpg

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[LivesNearCostco]

I should get the ZHP back sometime this week. Planning my next track day. Wanted to go this coming weekend (Oct 25-26) to Sonoma with NASA, but wife says better if I wait until November 8-9. The local events available are...

--Porsche Owners Club at Buttonwillow, $230/day or $345 for 2 days
--Trackmasters Racing at Laguna Seca with Mazda friends, $250/day or $480 for both days
--Speed Ventures at AutoClub Speedway (Southern California), $190/day
--Alfra Romeo Club of Southern California at Streets of Willow, $175/day or $295 for 2 days

I have 2 events left on my HPDE insurance policy but it expires on November 9th. It can be used for any of the events above except the Trackmasters event. I am learning towards POC at Buttonwillow as they might give me an instructor. Other option is do Saturday at Buttonwillow with the ZHP (using the insurance) and one day at Laguna Seca with the E36 M3 (no insurance).

My thinking is this would be the last track day(s) for my ZHP, and I'll take the E36 M3 to the BMW CCA 3-day event at Streets of Willow/WSIR November 22-24 for Instructor Training School if they'll let me in, and the regular track days if they won't let me into ITS. Any thoughts on which event(s) would be best for me to return to the track after my crash?

[tkundhi]

My thinking is this would be the last track day(s) for my ZHP, and I'll take the E36 M3 to the BMW CCA 3-day event at Streets of Willow/WSIR November 22-24 for Instructor Training School if they'll let me in, and the regular track days if they won't let me into ITS. Any thoughts on which event(s) would be best for me to return to the track after my crash?

John, if the Nov ITS is similar to the one I did, I suggest you take the car that you're most comfortable, most like the one with most seat time. As far as getting into a BMW ITS, in our region you get invited. Candidates can express their desire to attend but ultimately they must get an invitee.

The ITS isn't about being fast. It's about car control, people skills, communication and lots of roll playing. Here is the best way to self evaluate if you are ready for an ITS. Can you drive at 7-8/10 and simultaneously have a conversation about something other than driving the track? You will be expected to do that throughout the school.

The ITS is a great experience. I learned so much. It was information overload. Very much like my first HPDE but completely different level.

Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions.

t.

[LivesNearCostco]

Thanks, t. It appears that for this ITS one does not require an invite in advance, but they say right on the reg page that approval is needed from the club's chief driving instructor to attend. By normal standards I'm not ready to be an instructor since I've only been in B group and not A nor A+. But I really think it would be good for me to take this course if they'll let me in. Even if I don't get approved as an instructor, I think it would be a good learning experience for me.

I can certainly have an animated conversation about the track while driving at 7/10ths and some conversation about the track at 8/10th. Can I talk about other topics--like baseball, politics, or Ebola--while driving at 8/10ths? Probably not. At 7/10ths? Maybe.

The good news is if they don't approve me, they still are allowing A/B students to do the Friday track day, just not as instructor candidates.

[derbo]

October 28th (Tuesday) Performance Technic Private Trackday Thunderhill. I am going in! :)

[LivesNearCostco]

Derek, I saw that in one of your other threads. Is there a signup or info page somewhere? I looked on their web site but didn't find a reference. Probably won't work for me since it's a Tuesday, but good to know about it.

[derbo]

Derek, I saw that in one of your other threads. Is there a signup or info page somewhere? I looked on their web site but didn't find a reference. Probably won't work for me since it's a Tuesday, but good to know about it.

They created a Facebook event for it. $275 for all day sessions. Lunch is included. Info@performancetechnic.com

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[derbo]

https://www.facebook.com/events/748665501870852/771458702924865/?ref=notif&notif_t=plan_mall_activity

Here is the link to the facebook group, not sure if you can view it.


We will be hosting a small group of drivers October 28 at Thunderhill Raceway. This is a private event for all drivers with price set at $275 and we can provide driver instructors if needed.

Please contact Info@PerformanceTechnic.com or call Joe at 925-426-1361 x104 to reserve your spot.

This event is being co-hosted by Vishal Shah and sponsored by his company, Turn Inc.. We are working out exact details on what the sponsorship will entail, stay tuned for more information.

[LivesNearCostco]

Yes I can see the link. Would love to go to "get my mojo back" but most likely I need to be at work.

[LivesNearCostco]

My next track day, and first since my crash, is this Saturday with the Porsche Owners Club at Buttonwillow. I'll be taking the ZHP and the plan is this will be the last track event for it, and after that I'll switch to the E36.

According to the reg list, there will be 1 BMW (me), 1 Corvette, 1 Audi S7, 1 Honda Prelude, and 100 Porsches of various kinds.

[derbo]

Enjoy John! Be sure to take pics and videos :)

Did you ever upload that video during the crash?

[LivesNearCostco]

I'm still shy about that video! Though I did show it to the other driver and got his feedback on safer passing. Yesterday after getting alignment on ZHP, found out my mechanic recently parked next to friend of the other driver in the paddock at a NCRC track day down at Buttonwillow. And they discussed my little crash... Also found the other driver in the red E36 has a S54 swap, which explain some of the speed differential.

[derbo]

You can set it to private and send it to me ;)

[stephenkirsh]

I'm interested from a learning perspective. Never done a real HSDE before and looking to do my first in 2015.

I fully understand if you don't ever want to post it though!

[Vas]

I'm curious as well

[LivesNearCostco]

Let me start by saying car-to-car contact in HPDE is extremely rare. I've done more than 25 events and never seen it before outside of a race group. I've been at events with spins, offs, cars smacking walls, two rollovers (not at the same event), and a guy that went off in front of me in the rain and tapped a corner station. But never did I see two cars come together until I did it.

I'll send Derbo the link and let him share his observations on what I should have done differently. Here are my biggest mistakes:

IGave point-by too early, before apex.
Went off-line before the apex -- bad idea! Should stay online and make faster driver find his/her way around you.
Might have lifted off the throttle on turn exit, unweighting rear tires
Didn't counter steer quickly enough. Maybe fast enough if the other guy hadn't been there, but he was passing when I started sliding
Might have lifted even more once the slide started, making it worse.
Other guy should have waited until I was straight before passing, though of course he had no way of knowing I was going to lose it


I'm okay at counter steering when the back end comes around, but I probably lift off the gas at the same time, which is the right thing with throttle-on oversteer but absolutely wrong answer with throttle-off or neutral throttle oversteer. Without data acquisition or a camera watching my feet, can't be sure.

Other potential contributing factors:

Newly paved track was more slippery off-line than normal.
First session of day on square R-comp tires instead of staggered summer
Other driver was much faster--better driver, lighter car, S54 motor. So passed me sooner and faster.
Other driver should have been in faster group. He is fast enough to run in SpeedVentures Green or Red. Not clear why he was in Black with me.
Conti slick takeoffs had at least 11 heat cycles with me, plus whatever the race team did. Some say they become unpredictable after enough heat cycles.
Possible my rear had toe-out that day. It did after accident, but can't be sure if that might have been caused by the accident itself.
I was trying to impress Derbo! Not really, but I was trying to show him my best laps, though not that time in that corner
Short of sleep; might have slowed my reaction times.


So like many track accidents, it was a combination of things. Any one of those along would not have lead to contact, but in combination it led to an expensive lesson. Luckily I had the HPDE insurance that weekend.

Staying on street tires, using staggered setup, passing only in straights, and staying on-line all the time all reduce the risk of an incident. But as you get better at track days, you typically want to go beyond with stickier tires, flexible passing, and learning to drive off-line. In fact if you take race licensing school or drive in the rain, they spend a lot of time practicing driving off-line.

[stephenkirsh]

Thanks for the write up.

Why do you drive off line in rain?

[LivesNearCostco]

You don't have to if going well below the limit, but usually in the rain the normal line has the least traction due to accumulated rubber and oil in the asphalt. So in rain sometimes drivers will stay off painted berms, drive around puddles, and drive off-line to find the most available grip.

[stephenkirsh]

Gotcha. Makes sense.

[derbo]

Let me start by saying car-to-car contact in HPDE is extremely rare. I've done more than 25 events and never seen it before outside of a race group. I've been at events with spins, offs, cars smacking walls, two rollovers (not at the same event), and a guy that went off in front of me in the rain and tapped a corner station. But never did I see two cars come together until I did it.

I'll send Derbo the link and let him share his observations on what I should have done differently. Here are my biggest mistakes:

IGave point-by too early, before apex.
Went off-line before the apex -- bad idea! Should stay online and make faster driver find his/her way around you.
Might have lifted off the throttle on turn exit, unweighting rear tires
Didn't counter steer quickly enough. Maybe fast enough if the other guy hadn't been there, but he was passing when I started sliding
Might have lifted even more once the slide started, making it worse.
Other guy should have waited until I was straight before passing, though of course he had no way of knowing I was going to lose it


I'm okay at counter steering when the back end comes around, but I probably lift off the gas at the same time, which is the right thing with throttle-on oversteer but absolutely wrong answer with throttle-off or neutral throttle oversteer. Without data acquisition or a camera watching my feet, can't be sure.

Other potential contributing factors:

Newly paved track was more slippery off-line than normal.
First session of day on square R-comp tires instead of staggered summer
Other driver was much faster--better driver, lighter car, S54 motor. So passed me sooner and faster.
Other driver should have been in faster group. He is fast enough to run in SpeedVentures Green or Red. Not clear why he was in Black with me.
Conti slick takeoffs had at least 11 heat cycles with me, plus whatever the race team did. Some say they become unpredictable after enough heat cycles.
Possible my rear had toe-out that day. It did after accident, but can't be sure if that might have been caused by the accident itself.
I was trying to impress Derbo! Not really, but I was trying to show him my best laps, though not that time in that corner
Short of sleep; might have slowed my reaction times.


So like many track accidents, it was a combination of things. Any one of those along would not have lead to contact, but in combination it led to an expensive lesson. Luckily I had the HPDE insurance that weekend.

Staying on street tires, using staggered setup, passing only in straights, and staying on-line all the time all reduce the risk of an incident. But as you get better at track days, you typically want to go beyond with stickier tires, flexible passing, and learning to drive off-line. In fact if you take race licensing school or drive in the rain, they spend a lot of time practicing driving off-line.


Contact in a HPDE is pretty rare. At Laguna Seca in 2012, I witness a Honda Civic hatch go too hot into Turn 3 and oversteer. The driver probably let go of the gas and try to correct because the car decides to snap oversteer right back into the other direction. I saw this as I was right behind the Civic, but the yellow S2000 behind me may not have seen it. As I am pulling to the right in anticipation of the Civic flinging back to the left, the S2000 decides that I was letting him pass and he T boned the Civic. :facepalm Besides that, I rarely seen any real contact before John's incident.

Back to topic:
I reviewed the video again and it is a bit hard to determine what exactly happened without data on his gas/brake pedals and speed.

http://www.maxrev.net/Icons/TimeAttack3/cardrivercomparo.jpg

Here is my input on what happened:

Main set of events:

John sees a faster car in the beginning of the yellow section esses "cotton corners"
He wants to point the faster car by and decided to point them by during the little straight before the last yellow corner in the picture above.
During the corner, John is off racing line and slips at the end of the corner resulting in hitting the E36 like a T bone.



Event 2's straight is very very short. In fact, I personally use the straight as part of a larger two apex corner. From what I can tell, while he is pointing the guy by, his steering is not aim towards the corner's APEX. Whether this was intentional or not, John can say. As John said, new pavement and offline was not a good idea at this corner. The car seems to start slipping as it passes the APEX and John instinctively starts to counter. The combination of the short straight and being offline, those R Compounds did not have a chance. It sounded like John also lifted his gas pedal and turned in after the point-by but the car was already off-line and it may have contributed to the extra oversteer.

I think the E36 shouldn't have tried to past there. Considering this is black group, it is definitely not an ideal area to pass. If he waited briefly for the straight afterwards he may have miss John sliding and contact could've been avoided.


Either way, I'm just glad that everyone involved was fine and the ZHP lives another day. :) Unfortunately things happen and I'm glad it didn't bite too much out of your wallet John!

[Johal E32]

Anybody down the 22nd? http://trackmasters-racing.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.eventDetails&event_id=137

I'll be there in the wagon

[LivesNearCostco]

Thought about it as I'd really like to run Sonoma again. Instead I'm doing the BMW CCA 4-3-2-1 event at Willow Springs.

[stephenkirsh]

Oh I MIGHT. Not sure I wanna burn though my new tires so quickly. Lol

[Johal E32]

Thought about it as I'd really like to run Sonoma again. Instead I'm doing the BMW CCA 4-3-2-1 event at Willow Springs.

Sure thing, hope to see you at another event John, it has been awhile!

Oh I MIGHT. Not sure I wanna burn though my new tires so quickly. Lol

Pssshhhh, its what your tires are for! To be USED!

[stephenkirsh]

Yea I know. But I USED my previous set in basically 6-7 months lol

[Johal E32]

Wow. I am at two years and nearly 20k miles. Planning to replace them next year.

[stephenkirsh]

How many autocross sessions did you have in them?

[derbo]

Wow. I am at two years and nearly 20k miles. Planning to replace them next year.

I used to change every 6 months..

Damn I would love to go. How much is autox? I never been.

[Johal E32]

How many autocross sessions did you have in them?

0. I used to run some style 44's (stockies)But I gave them to my pops and he sold his car that they were on. Oh well! lol.



I used to change every 6 months..

Damn I would love to go. How much is autox? I never been.

75 bucks, and track masters gives LOTS of seat time. Like last time I would have 35-40 laps if my starter didn't take a dump on me.

Come on out dude! Pretty fun too!

Plan to mount my super sports, which are in the garage sometime next year so I do not mind wearing these down some more.

[stephenkirsh]

0.

Well there ya go. I had 6 sessions. 2 from track masters and 4 from a local group in the north bay.

The track masters ones did the most damage, though!

[LivesNearCostco]

Just in case one of you Californians wants to go to a track day this weekend...
There is a 3-day "4-3-2-1" CCA school next weekend November 21-23 (starts Friday) at Willow Springs. Friday and Sunday will be on Streets of Willow while Saturday will be on the big Willow Springs course. Friday is only for experienced (A or B) students, instructors, and instructor candidates, while drivers of all levels are welcome on Sunday (Saturday is sold out). Boris Said is the guest speaker Saturday night. Registration closes Wednesday November 19th at 11:59pm (probably PST, but could be EST).

http://www.motorsportreg.com/events/california-regional-hpde-its-bmw-cca-la-sd-ccc-ggc-willow-springs-intl-920314#.VGeTQMllMak

If you don't want a CCA event, here are some non-CCA events the same weekend, plus there are other California track events on Black Friday November 28th.


SoCal Audi Club at Buttonwillwo Nov 21-23
SpeedVentures at Chuckwalla, Nov 22-23
XtremeSpeed Track Events at AutoClub Speedway, Nov 22-23
ExtremeSpeed at Willows Springs Nov 29-30
PCA Diablo at Laguna Seca Nov 26 (Wednesday)
SpeedSF at Buttonwillow Nov 28th
NorCal Shelby Club, Laguna Seca Nov 28th
ExtremeSpeed at Buttonwillow Dec 6-7
SpeedVentures at Streets of Willow Dec 6
Porsche Owners Club at Big Willow, Dec 6-7

[derbo]

Speedsf has their 2015 tentative schedule up.


Our tentative dates for the 2015 season:
Sunday, January 4th MRLS (90db)
Sunday, January 25th MRLS (90db)
Monday, March 2nd Sonoma (103db)
Sat, March 14th buttonwillow (unlimited)
Sunday, April 5th (Easter) MRLS (90db)
Saturday, May 23th Sonoma (103db)
Monday, May 25th (Memorial Day)MRLS (90db)
Thursday, July 30th MRLS (90db)
Friday Sep 25 MRLS (92db)
Monday Oct 5 Sonoma (103db)
Friday Nov 27 Buttonwillow (unlimited)

[LivesNearCostco]

I survived 3 days at Willow Springs and so did my E36 car. At least the important parts did well (suspension, brakes, cooling, motor). Had to do an emergency fender lip roll in back and install my never-before-used 12mm spacers up front to fit the track wheels. (Front wheels were hitting the lower spring perch on the Bilstein struts.) So to fit the 17x8.5" ET40 wheels with 245/40/17 tires I need to push them OUT in front and wanted a negative spacer in the rear. Instead the rear I inserted home-made spring pad above stock upper spring pad for rear springs, paid a guy to hammer the fender lips, and cranked the camber slightly more negative, from -2.2 to about -2.5.

The little stuff that broke: Alarm system stopped working; one foglight lens lost on track (other came loose); Headliner falling down even more due to open windows; right front door lock actuator broken (that happened before going to track). But new radiator, water pump and thermostat working well. Mechanical fan delete is fine, though the weather hasn't been hot since I deleted it.

I had 3 different instructors driving my car at different points across the 3 days and I drove in the BMW CCA "A" group for the first time on Sunday. Will post track videos in the other thread soon.

[stephenkirsh]

Sounds awesome.

So uh. Not sure how comparable this is to your e36, but my ARC-8s with 245/40/17 barely fit in the front of my zhp. Is et40 a aggressive for BMWs or something?

[danewilson77]

Sounds awesome.

So uh. Not sure how comparable this is to your e36, but my ARC-8s with 245/40/17 barely fit in the front of my zhp. Is et40 a aggressive for BMWs or something?
Not really. Mine are et45....

"No flamesuit required"

[LivesNearCostco]

Depends if your Arc-8s are barely fitting on the inside (wheel well) or outside (fender) in the front. If they are really close to the fender, then an ET45 would move them inward and provide more clearance than ET40. But if they are close to rubbing the strut spring perch (as happened on my E36) or the inner fender wall (as happened on the ZHP with 255/40/17 tires), then ET45 will be worse and ET30 would be better.

In the rear, "more aggressive" usually means something like ET30 or ET25 because that pushes the wheel out closer to the fender lip or fender liner.

[stephenkirsh]

Gotcha. Mine are petty close to the outside (fender) at all 4 corners. No spacers.

[LivesNearCostco]

Hmmm... seems strange. In my case, the 17x8.5 wheels with 245/40/17 tires (D-force LTW wheels, but same ET40 offset I assume as yours) are close to the outsides in the back, and if I make the rear too low then it rubs in turns, especially if rear has a lot of weight. But the fronts were not anywhere close to rubbing the outside lips. In front they rubbed the inner fender at full steering lock--at least with 255/40/17 tires--so I put on 5mm spacers up front. I am running at least -2.3° camber up front, and up to -3.5° on track days when I'm most likely to have those wheels on. That could be one difference from your setup.

[stephenkirsh]

Hm ya the camber probably helps a lot.

I want to clarify I'm not close to rubbing in the front since I'm on OEM suspension. It's just that the outer edge of the wheel/tire are flush with with the outer edge of the fender.

[LivesNearCostco]

Stephen, I get ya. I think as you lower the suspension, your front camber gets more negative on its own, helping keep the outside edge of the tire from rubbing the fender lip.

One issue I had on the E36 is the Bilstein sport struts have a very strong angled support bracket under the lower spring perch, and the tire was rubbing on that. My E46 Sachs and Koni struts had a lower spring perch that just sat on top of the strut tube so they were a lot narrower right underneath the perch than the E36 Bilstein sport struts. That's probably why I needed no spacers (or 5mm spacer) on the ZHP and a 12mm spacer (10mm would have worked) on the E36, for the same wheels.

[LivesNearCostco]

I'm volunteering at the NASA teen/adult Car Control Clinic at Thunderhill Raceway on Monday Feb 16, 2015, then again at the BMW Car Club car control clinic on Saturday Feb 21 at Marina Airport. Any family members want to attend, bring a teen driver, or volunteer? I believe both groups could use some more volunteers to run driving exercise stations and direct the students. The NASA event might also need more instructors, ideally those who have done at least a few days of NASA HPDE2 or equivalent track days (no track experience required to volunteer).

NASA clinic, $99, no membership required. Teen drivers must have valid learner's permit and at least one parent must attend.
One exercise takes place on the race track (Thunderhill West). Instructors may give short demo rides on the track to students and parents.
Info and registration page: https://www.nasaproracing.com/events/1964

BMW CCA Golden Gate Chapter clinic: $150, membership required, teen drivers must have license and waiver signed by BOTH parents.
There is no race track on-site. Instructors may give students demo rides around some of the course exercises.
Background info: http://ggcbmwcca.org/driving-events/car-control-clinics/
Registration page: http://www.motorsportreg.com/events/car-control-clinic-february-21-marina-airport-bmw-cca-golden-gate-626785#.VNxFNi40PlR

Volunteers at both events get free lunch and at least the instructors get a free short track session at the NASA event.
Anyone want to join me, especially this Monday, Presdents' Day?

Edit: To watch or volunteer there is no cost for the BMW event. The NASA event *might* charge $10 per car to enter the gate even for volunteers/parents/spectators.

[Pip]

Do you know the timing for the Monday event of I were to attend? I would he interested but need to be in Cupertino around 5-6pm so would need to come back to Sacramento shower and head out. Not sure it'll work but I have the day off so if it is early it might.

[LivesNearCostco]

The Monday NASA event starts at 7:30am for registration and tech inspections and ends at 5pm. You would need to leave there by 1 or 2pm to make it to Cupertino by 5-6pm, depending how fast you drive and how long your showers are! I'm pretty sure they would appreciate volunteers even if you only stay a half day. Check with Scott Smith, his contact info is scott@nasacarcontrol.org or call him at 707-872-7223.

[LivesNearCostco]

Thunderhill West was interesting--my first time there. We used the track to practice the "two wheels off" exercise with the students, who were mostly teen drivers. Instructors also got to drive one session on the track and take students and parents around. I'll post video links later.

[stephenkirsh]

What's two wheels off?

[LivesNearCostco]

Students practice dropping 2 wheels into the dirt shoulder then safely bringing the car back onto the road without suddenly jerking the steering wheel. It's something we don't normally do in the BMW CCA or Tire Rack Street Survival car control clinics.

[stephenkirsh]

Is it to simulate slowly drifting off the shoulder of a road?

[LivesNearCostco]

Yes, because you were distracted by texting, or er, whatever (hence the lunchtime talk from the CHP about not driving distracted). Or from going off because you had to avoid something in the roadway. The point is to slow down in a straight line then come back on gradually and not jerk the wheel suddenly at high speed, which can make your car shoot across to the other side of the road and hit a tree or oncoming car.

I made that mistake once at Buttonwillow: went off to the right on turn exit and immediately came back on without slowing down enough. The car immediately zipped to the left and went off the left side of the track. Fortunately for me nobody was following me closely.

[Pip]

LNC can you let me know when another one of these clinics is happening. I'd really like to go to one and remind myself I'm not God. Also would be s great intro to the track/auto x thing. Still need to get the car on the road but I'll handle that.

[LivesNearCostco]

BMW CCA has one this Saturday but
A) no track component (but better slalom/skid pad exercise)
B) registration probably closed
C) your car isn't ready?
D) it's in Marina, 3 hours from Sacramento

NASA NorCal and BMW CCA Golden Gate has 2 more in 2015 --I'll get you the dates.

[Pip]

BMW CCA has one this Saturday but
A) no track component (but better slalom/skid pad exercise)
B) registration probably closed
C) your car isn't ready?
D) it's in Marina, 3 hours from Sacramento

NASA NorCal and BMW CCA Golden Gate has 2 more in 2015 --I'll get you the dates.

Won't be around this weekend so the other dates are probably better. I don't need the track component just yet because I think a car control/slalom exercise would suffice for now. I'll google the two names you mentioned and hopefully they'll have a website or something.

[LivesNearCostco]

NASA nor Cal has CCCs on Mondays and Fridays at Thunderhill West + skidpad: June 29, August 10, November 27 (day after Thanksgiving?).
https://www.nasaproracing.com/events?region_id=2

BMW CCA has them on Saturdays Feb 21, April 25, June 13, and likely 2 more in 2nd half of 2015.
http://ggcbmwcca.org/events/month/

Trackmasters Racing has Autocross at Sonoma Raceway (paddock) March 7, June 6, Sept 19, Nov 21.
http://trackmasters-racing.com/

PCA has 3 (or 4) chapters in the Bay Area with track days and AutoX but not sure if doing CCCs.

Tire Rack Street Survival has Reno March 14 and Camarillo (So Cal) June 20
http://streetsurvival.org/

[stephenkirsh]

I enjoy the track masters autox at Sonoma. Lots of driving time.

[LivesNearCostco]

And if you really like it, in the same venue TrackMasters is holding HPDE on Sonoma Raceway. Often the AutoX is Saturday only but the Sonoma track event is both Saturday and Sunday. It seems many of their Thunderhill HPDE days are Fridays or Mondays.

BTW the PCA chapters in the Bay Are (at least Loma Prieta and Golden GAte) seem to welcome anyone to their HPDE days but restrict AutoX to PCA members, and you must own or lease a Porsche to join the PCA. I did a track weekend with them and it was good, but they always say no when I ask to join their AutoXes (unless I'm a guest of a member). I know some BMW CCA members who also AutoX with PCA but they generally own both a Porsche and a BMW.

[stephenkirsh]

PCA in my area used to do a joint autox with my private club once a year. They bailed out after getting beat by "cheap" cars all the time. So the rumor goes...

[LivesNearCostco]

I unfortunately could not afford to do NASA at Sonoma Raceway this weekend but I wish a wonderful fun and fast time on those of you going!

For anyone interested in a car control clinic, BMW CCA has one April 25 at Marina Airport and NASA has one June 29 at Thunderhill Raceway.

[derbo]

SpeedSF is having a Memorial Day Special


Saturday 5/23 Sonoma Raceway
Monday 5/25 Laguna Seca

$460 for combo deal
$300 for Sears only
$250 for Laguna Seca.

EEPS!!

[stephenkirsh]

What do you get from SpeedSF? NASA at Sonoma is $180 for anybody but the newbies.

[derbo]

What do you get from SpeedSF? NASA at Sonoma is $180 for anybody but the newbies.


What do you mean what you get?

SpeedSF is very relax in regards to tech inspection and rules. Plus it's not completely packed on the track per session. They usually have about 20 people per group to minimize traffic. idk if they still do this, but at Thunderhill last time, there was two advanced groups: "lap time 2:07 and faster" and those below that in advanced.

http://speedsf.com/events-registration/

[stephenkirsh]

I guess I meant how many sessions and how long are they?

NASA does 4 20-minute sessions. So if SpeedSF is charging $300 I would expect at least 50% more track time.

[stephenkirsh]

Looks like they do 5 20-minute runs. So 25% more time for 60% more cost.

[derbo]

Looks like they do 5 20-minute runs. So 25% more time for 60% more cost.

Stephen,

The problem with NASA is that their groups are overcrowded and slow. There is also a ton of levels to jump through hoops to get to open-advanced group. Here at SpeedSF you will get plenty of track time and minimal traffic. IMO thats better than "bang for buck" track time.

Also whats the use if you are stuck in a train of cars...in your sessions.

[stephenkirsh]

I've only done one NASA session in group 1/2, which I'm told is the most crowded. I never really had much of an issue with traffic.

Good to know other groups have less hoops.

[derbo]

I've only done one NASA session in group 1/2, which I'm told is the most crowded. I never really had much of an issue with traffic.

Good to know other groups have less hoops.

Also SpeedSF will have a bunch of the PTech guys out. :)


IMO NASA and BMW CCA seems to be the rule heavy ones that are helpful for beginners.

[stephenkirsh]

I'm a beginner :)

What's PTech?

[Pip]

I'm a beginner :)

What's PTech?

Performance Tech is a shop in Pleasanton/Livermore area.

[derbo]

I'm a beginner :)

What's PTech?

Thanks Sean,

Oops, I thought you knew from the last time you were out at Sonoma and Performance Tech Spec E46 was out there.

[stephenkirsh]

I'd never heard of them. I saw a ton of Edge cars, which I'm familiar with (my dad uses them sometimes).

[derbo]

I'd never heard of them. I saw a ton of Edge cars, which I'm familiar with (my dad uses them sometimes).


They did the 1M with m3 V8.

http://www.specapp.cc/marcosvizzero/1ms65/show



And their spece46 car for this season.
19071

[stephenkirsh]

There's been a good number of 1M v8 swaps. I think Dinan did one too.

I do recognize that spec e46 car now.

[LivesNearCostco]

I've only done one NASA Nor Cal event. It was HPDE 1 at Sonoma, and it moderately crowded but not super crowded. I spent a little bit of the time in trains but it was a good experience for me to learn Sonoma for the first time. NASA So. Cal events have ranged from very crowded to very light.

BMW events are the most strict on rules, I would say stricter than NASA in most ways. BMW events also tend to be the most expensive (other than maybe Hooked On Driving events?) and give you slightly more track time--they say 4 x 30-minute sessions but in reality it's more like 1 x 20-minute session followed by 3 30-minute sessions at most events. So that's like 110 minutes for BMW CCA vs. 80 minutes for NASA, though sometimes NASA Nor Cal gives HPDE1 folks a 15-minute low speed orientation session at the beginning, so you actually get 95 minutes.

Speed Ventures you often get an extra (5th) 25-minute blended (2 run groups together) session at the end if you want it, as some drivers tire and leave early and the groups thin out.

Never done SpeedSF, but $250 for a day at Laguna Seca is a good deal and $460 for one day Sonoma and one day Laguna is a really good deal!


Also SpeedSF will have a bunch of the PTech guys out. :)


IMO NASA and BMW CCA seems to be the rule heavy ones that are helpful for beginners.