FS: M3 Rear Subframe/LSD Swap

[WilC]

Since I decided to go a different direction, I am selling the rear subframe/LSD/Suspension I was going to install in my car.

I bought these from another member and I'm just looking to get some of my money back. The sale includes all the parts needed to swap your non LSD to an M3 LSD.

Parts included:
Subframe, LSD, Axles, Rear Swap, Upper control arms, Trailing arms, Calipers, ebrakes, Rotors, Lower arms, and the Driveshaft

Parts came out of 2003 M3 with 65 to 67k miles (6 spd and SMG rear end are the same parts).

Price: $1,200 or best offer.

The rear end is at my friend's shop (Princeton, NJ) so I will take pics this weekend.

[Crickett]

Bah! Why are you on the other side of the country?!

GLWS!

[NoVAphotog]

How does the M3 LSD compare to the OS Giken or Queef setups?

[NoVAphotog]

How does the M3 LSD compare to the OS Giken or Queef setups?

Quaife* :shifty

[derbo]

How does the M3 LSD compare to the OS Giken or Queef setups?

It is aftermarket and geared towards performance vs low maintenance and reliability. I say the M3 one is low maintenance but from a performance standpoint it can be improved.

However in this setup, you will get larger rear rotors from the M3.


OP,

are the rear ABS/Speed sensors from the M3 included?


Good price btw.

[Avetiso]

Quaife* :shifty

ROFL

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[JKO_ZHP]

Queef?

LOL
I just died in class.

[stephenkirsh]

Rofl best typo I've seen in a while

[Hornung418]

Interested. Need a few months to gather appropriate funds considering you made this available the week before the Family Reunion :(

[sillieidiot]

dammit, i would have picked this up right away if it was in socal lol

[Avetiso]

dammit, i would have picked this up right away if it was in socal lol
SoCal? You practically live in a parts graveyard. You can source this locally... for less. Look around.

[WilC]

OP,

are the rear ABS/Speed sensors from the M3 included?


Good price btw.

Yes, the complete rear end of the M3.

[JupiterBMW]

Shipping to 33458 please. And for people that don't search (me) can you verify the ratio?


iPhone 5S. Tapatalk Pro. BOOM

[Avetiso]

Shipping to 33458 please. And for people that don't search (me) can you verify the ratio?


iPhone 5S. Tapatalk Pro. BOOM

3.62

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[JupiterBMW]

Thank Dario.


iPhone 5S. Tapatalk Pro. BOOM

[NoVAphotog]

In all seriousness from before, I am interested in an LSD swap, however, I just think financially it makes more sense to wait until I "need" to upgrade those components regardless of getting an LSD with them than to take apart mine at 60k.

OP, if I may, what direction have you chosen?

[derbo]

Shipping to 33458 please. And for people that don't search (me) can you verify the ratio?


iPhone 5S. Tapatalk Pro. BOOM


Feel free to contact me about this mod Joop. :) I've done some painful researching on whats needed.

[WilC]

Interested. Need a few months to gather appropriate funds considering you made this available the week before the Family Reunion :(

Not a problem. I'm only selling because I may buy an M3 and I won't need this upgrade. As per the Family Reunion, I was planning on going but my pregnant wife will kill me if I leave her home alone for the weekend.



.

OP, if I may, what direction have you chosen?

I will be buying an M3 so the money can be used somewhere else.


Yes, the complete rear end of the M3.

Shipping will be pretty expensive, I'm assuming, since the parts are pretty heavy.

[Tnhl1989]

Take it apart and fit it in more boxes ;)

[mimalmo]

Shipping would be cheapest via a pallet. When my M3 LSD setup was sold, it had a custom wood crate built for it - not cheap.

[wsmeyer]

You can build your own crate and then go to freightquote.com

[Hornung418]

But I'm seriously planning on buy this guys...no funny ideas about shipping! :shifty

[Avetiso]

Question. Why the driveshaft? I thought the non-M six speed shaft fit?

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[Hornung418]

The input shaft is shorter on the M3. So the change needs to happen. The Non M and M3 six speed transmissions are the same length, however.

[Avetiso]

The input shaft is shorter on the M3. So the change needs to happen. The Non M and M3 six speed transmissions are the same length, however.

Oh okay. I've read other places that it wasn't necessary. I guess it is.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[derbo]

Oh okay. I've read other places that it wasn't necessary. I guess it is.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

It is required. The shorter M3 driveshaft is plug in play into a 6spd non-m transmission.

[Avetiso]

It is required. The shorter M3 driveshaft is plug in play into a 6spd transmission.

Oh okay. Maybe I misread, then.

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[Hermes]

And for people that don't search (me) can you verify the ratio?


3.62

M3 only comes in one ratio (3.62) which I think is too short for regular driving in a manual (fine for auto since it already has 3.64). Your options then become M5 3.15 ring and pinion swap, or OS Giken/Quaiffe custom ratio

[Hornung418]

M3 only comes in one ratio (3.62) which I think is too short for regular driving in a manual (fine for auto since it already has 3.64). Your options then become M5 3.15 ring and pinion swap, or OS Giken/Quaiffe custom ratio
I just checked diffsonline and the price of the differential alone became more than half the cost of my car...Think I'll pass on a custom build unless its for the Non M diff.

Definitely gonna go with the M5 R&P. Simple swap for those that know what they're doing. I've got a guy local to me in Columbia MD that has built diffs and I think with a lil kickback he'll help me out. Now I just need to find an e39 R&P. Any p/ns available, JP?

[Avetiso]

Sissies. Stick with the 3.62 and forget about first gear! :rofl

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[Hermes]

The issue with 3.62 is not first gear but 6th at highway speeds... your car doesn't have 8000rpms to deal with that ratio

Justin, I don't see any 210mm R&P's available right now besides 3.62 (well, there are even shorter from a Tacoma)... just medium and small case on eBay

[derbo]

M3 only comes in one ratio (3.62) which I think is too short for regular driving in a manual (fine for auto since it already has 3.64). Your options then become M5 3.15 ring and pinion swap, or OS Giken/Quaiffe custom ratio

PSHHTTT its fine for manual. The M3 drive tranmission gear ratios are similar to those of the non-M 6spd. It's slightly taller.


330cic ZHP Manual
4.35 2.5 1.66 1.23 1.00 0.85 3.93 3.07 6800rpm
M3 Coupe
4.23 2.53 1.67 1.23 1.00 0.83 3.75 3.62 8000rpm

[Hornung418]

A year ago before I bought the ZHP I found five 210mm e39 3.15 R&P for sale on eBay...What gives??

[derbo]

The issue with 3.62 is not first gear but 6th at highway speeds... your car doesn't have 8000rpms to deal with that ratio

Justin, I don't see any 210mm R&P's available right now besides 3.62 (well, there are even shorter from a Tacoma)... just medium and small case on eBay

The freeway speed is 70mph at 2900rpm. I deal with it. :)

[Hornung418]

It's like having a 5 speed transmission all over again...

I cruise at 74 on I-95 when I drive it. MD has a 65 MPH speed limit on all highways.

What's the 60-100 time in 6th gear like Derek?

[derbo]

It's like having a 5 speed transmission all over again...

I cruise at 74 on I-95 when I drive it. MD has a 65 MPH speed limit on all highways.

What's the 60-100 time in 6th gear like Derek?

I have no idea. I never bothered to time the slow car.

[Hermes]

A year ago before I bought the ZHP I found five 210mm e39 3.15 R&P for sale on eBay...What gives??

Yeah, I saw one sold for $50... and now there are none


The freeway speed is 70mph at 2900rpm. I deal with it. :)

Dude, you drive the Prius everywhere so you don't deal with anything ;)

Your setup would be like if I was to put a 4.44 in the E21, sweet diff but annoying to drive around town

[Hornung418]

The car may be slow...but with that ratio it's certainly quick!!

[WilC]

The freeway speed is 70mph at 2900rpm. I deal with it. :)

LOL, my 5 speed touring purrs 3000 rpms at 65MPH.

[Crickett]

The freeway speed is 70mph at 2900rpm. I deal with it. :)

I calculated that my 6MT ZHP’s 5th gear with its OE diff is equivalent (or very close) to its 6th gear with an M3 diff. I tested out what my 30-mile commute would be like with an M3 diff for a couple weeks by never shifting into 6th. It was definitely not a bother!

[Avetiso]

I find the car funner in 5th on the highway. :)

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[derbo]

funner is not a word :)

[derbo]

Yeah, I saw one sold for $50... and now there are none



Dude, you drive the Prius everywhere so you don't deal with anything ;)

Your setup would be like if I was to put a 4.44 in the E21, sweet diff but annoying to drive around town

How many miles do you drive your ZHP a year? I still manage about 8000 miles last year and it was a hoot driving it. I never cared about mpg in the BMW but I am averaging about 24mpg according to fuelly. I never thought it was a pain to drive in the city or on the freeway. It was just plain fun shifting and keeping the revs at 4000rpm. The noise it makes at 4000rpm is awesome. :)

[Avetiso]

funner is not a word :)

Education is important. Race cars are importanter.

Get at me. :rofl

"Arnold smoking a cigar in the Red Square; your argument is invalid." -Galaxy S5

[Hermes]

How many miles do you drive your ZHP a year? I still manage about 8000 miles last year and it was a hoot driving it. I never cared about mpg in the BMW but I am averaging about 24mpg according to fuelly. I never thought it was a pain to drive in the city or on the freeway. It was just plain fun shifting and keeping the revs at 4000rpm. The noise it makes at 4000rpm is awesome. :)

I did about 6000 on the zhp, another 18k on the 320. Yeah, it would be fine for you or me who doesn't drive the car as much but I don't think somebody that only has it as their main car should do it with such a short ratio

Edit: an even more involved option would be to crack the 6MT open and replace the 0.85 6th gear with a 0.74

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/01/e3a4u2yp.jpg

[WilC]

The dilemma are not the RPMs at 65 MPH but going 0 to 60 at a light. With the stock diff (3.16), I can reach 67 MPH in second gear without running out of RPM (hitting the limiter ).

Since M3s rev to 8,000 RPMS vs 6,800 in a stock ZHPs, you will probably hit the RPM limiter in second gear thus the need to shift to third (this is just a theory).

One thing for sure, it will make the car quicker off the line but reduce its top speed.

[derbo]

The dilemma are not the RPMs at 65 MPH but going 0 to 60 at a light. With the stock diff (3.16), I can reach 67 MPH in second gear without running out of RPM (hitting the limiter ).

Since M3s rev to 8,000 RPMS vs 7,600 in a stock ZHPs, you will probably hit the RPM limiter in second gear thus the need to shift to third (this is just a theory).

One thing for sure, it will make the car quicker off the line but reduce its top speed.

You do need to shift to 3rd for 0-60mph. I can't say I really ever launched my car as it's harsh on the parts. 5-60mph is improved. I never drag raced my car except when it was stock at a wed night drag. After that, I face the fact we have a 14sec car that isn't very powerful in that sense.

There is a 18% improvement in acceleration with the change in the gear ratio alone. 2-3mpg hit for the increased rpms. 500% more fun. :)

[WilC]

There is a 18% improvement in acceleration with the change in the gear ratio alone. 2-3mpg hit for the increased rpms. 500% more fun. :)

Like another member from this forum once told me, it's like installing a mini-supercharger to the car.:thumbsup

[Tnhl1989]

Seems like a lot of people are considering of doing the m3 swap now a days :)

[sillieidiot]

SoCal? You practically live in a parts graveyard. You can source this locally... for less. Look around.

oh yeah i can source it, but not for less. it usually goes for more not including the driveshaft. also they usually have more miles than this one.

[sillieidiot]

Seems like a lot of people are considering of doing the m3 swap now a days :)

because it's cheap. it's like the s54 swap. it's getting cheaper and more feasible nowadays.

[az3579]

The freeway speed is 70mph at 2900rpm. I deal with it. :)

Ok, Mr. I-don't-daily-drive-my-ZHP-anymore. :p


I did about 6000 on the zhp, another 18k on the 320. Yeah, it would be fine for you or me who doesn't drive the car as much but I don't think somebody that only has it as their main car should do it with such a short ratio


[


This x1000000.
It is annoying, at best. Revving over 3000 at common highway speeds is unacceptable for those who drive on the highway a LOT. The sound of elevated engine speeds constantly gets old fast if you're just trying to get home, and honestly ruins it for me. I want the sound of my engine to be a treat, not the norm.

That being said, if you have another daily driver, or overall don't care at all about gas mileage or don't drive the car a lot, then this is probably the most effective mod you can do to your car to get a performance increase without having to spend 5-6k for a supercharger that's worth getting. This price is a steal considering the mileage and quite frankly, am shocked that it's not gone yet.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cakM3]

the 250 rpm increase I now have with my LSD isn't enough to make daily driving my ZHP painful. In fact I don't mind a little increase of my engine noise while "at speed" so to speak. I don't find the additional 250 rpm annoying at all...:)

[az3579]

the 250 rpm increase I now have with my LSD isn't enough to make daily driving my ZHP painful. In fact I don't mind a little increase of my engine noise while "at speed" so to speak. I don't find the additional 250 rpm annoying at all...:)

I absolutely KNEW you were going to post that! I was gonna add "unless you're Charlie" to the end of that but decided not to so you didn't take it the wrong way. Lol


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[cakM3]

I absolutely KNEW you were going to post that! I was gonna add "unless you're Charlie" to the end of that but decided not to so you didn't take it the wrong way. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had to add my two cents Botond... :biggrin Couldn't resist :)

[Tnhl1989]

So 500 rpms would've do much I guess. I'll just have to let BP drive my car once it's all set ;)

[cakM3]

So 500 rpms would've do much I guess. I'll just have to let BP drive my car once it's all set ;)

I don't know Tony! If you do this BP might want to do the same thing to Wobz...;)

[Hornung418]

Ok, Mr. I-don't-daily-drive-my-ZHP-anymore. :p




This x1000000.
It is annoying, at best. Revving over 3000 at common highway speeds is unacceptable for those who drive on the highway a LOT. The sound of elevated engine speeds constantly gets old fast if you're just trying to get home, and honestly ruins it for me. I want the sound of my engine to be a treat, not the norm.

That being said, if you have another daily driver, or overall don't care at all about gas mileage or don't drive the car a lot, then this is probably the most effective mod you can do to your car to get a performance increase without having to spend 5-6k for a supercharger that's worth getting. This price is a steal considering the mileage and quite frankly, am shocked that it's not gone yet.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're kidding right? Drive any e46 with a 5speed transmission and you will find that they all cruise at highway speeds on or near 3000rpm it doesnt affect gas mileage as much as you think. I took my 328i on the same 293 mile journey from my house to school and would consistantly get 29 mpg fully loaded. There is nothing wrong with hearing the engine at that speed to my ears. The sixth gear is the real "treat."

Sent from my GS3.

[Sockethead]

IDK I had the diff I sold Charlie in my car for a couple of weeks, it's a 3:46, I really didn't enjoy it that much. I basically takes away 6th gear. I also had a 325 for a while so I'm familiar with the 5 speed.
I do a lot of highway miles so the 3:15 I have in it now is perfect for me. On the other hand Charlie loves the 3:46. It's all personal taste.
Here's a pic of my dash with the 3:46 in it so you all can see exactly where the RPMs are in sixth gear at 80 mph
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/01/nudevu5u.jpg

[derbo]

So 500 rpms would've do much I guess. I'll just have to let BP drive my car once it's all set ;)


Ok, Mr. I-don't-daily-drive-my-ZHP-anymore. :p




This x1000000.
It is annoying, at best. Revving over 3000 at common highway speeds is unacceptable for those who drive on the highway a LOT. The sound of elevated engine speeds constantly gets old fast if you're just trying to get home, and honestly ruins it for me. I want the sound of my engine to be a treat, not the norm.

That being said, if you have another daily driver, or overall don't care at all about gas mileage or don't drive the car a lot, then this is probably the most effective mod you can do to your car to get a performance increase without having to spend 5-6k for a supercharger that's worth getting. This price is a steal considering the mileage and quite frankly, am shocked that it's not gone yet.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol BP. Its basically driving in 5th on the freeway. Even if I was to daily drive it, its NOT as bad as you portray it to be. I think its perfectly fine to me. The uuc is barely audible in the cabin at freeway speeds and frankly is quiet IMO. #becauseracecar. If you want a quiet freeway monster, get a Prius like me hahahahah. In fact, I'm heading to my parents to pick up the zhp to drive to work today.

sent from Moto X Dev Edition

[stephenkirsh]

You're kidding right? Drive any e46 with a 5speed transmission and you will find that they all cruise at highway speeds on or near 3000rpm it doesnt affect gas mileage as much as you think. I took my 328i on the same 293 mile journey from my house to school and would consistantly get 29 mpg fully loaded. There is nothing wrong with hearing the engine at that speed to my ears. The sixth gear is the real "treat."

Sent from my GS3.

Yea ZHP autos have a 3.64 diff and a 5 speed. I can't remember what I'm taching at 75mph, but I can't even grab 3rd gear at that speed. It will only go down to 4th.

[Hornung418]

In a manual, 3rd gear maxes out at 99mph.

Sent from my GS3.

[Hermes]

Yea ZHP autos have a 3.64 diff and a 5 speed. I can't remember what I'm taching at 75mph, but I can't even grab 3rd gear at that speed. It will only go down to 4th.

Autos have a 0.74 overdrive gear, look at the pic I posted

[Hornung418]

Bokchoys gear calculator is your friend here if you are unsure what high way speeds you will be cruising.

Sent from my GS3.

[wsmeyer]

When you're trying to compare different cars that have different ratios in the transmission as well as rear end you need to multiply each transmission ratio and the rear end ratio and look at the resulting ratio which is engine revs to axle revs.

Here's all the ones we're interested in:








330 ZHP manual -> 4.35 | 2.50 | 1.66 | 1.23 | 1.00 | 0.85 | 3.93 | 3.07 | 6800
M3 manual -> 4.23 | 2.53 | 1.67 | 1.23 | 1.00 | 0.83 | 3.75 | 3.62 | 8000

330 ZHP automatic -> 3.67 | 2.00 | 1.41 | 1.00 | 0.70 | - | 4.10 | 3.64 | 6800
M3 automatic -> 3.67 | 2.00 | 1.41 | 1.00 | 0.74 | - | 4.10 | 3.38 | 6500


Now multiplying each transmission ratio X rear end ratio

330 ZHP manual -> 13.35 | 7.68 | 5.10 | 3.78 | 3.07 | 2.61
M3 manual -> 15.31 | 9.16 | 6.05 | 4.45 | 3.62 | 3.00

330 ZHP automatic -> 13.36 | 7.28 | 5.13 | 3.64 | 2.55 | -
M3 automatic -> 12.40 | 6.76 | 4.77 | 3.38 | 2.50 | -

Lastly, we'll look at a ZHP with M3 rear end:

manual w / 3.62 -> 15.75 | 9.05 | 6.01 | 4.45 | 3.62 | 3.08
manual w / 3.15 -> 13.70 | 7.88 | 5.23 | 3.87 | 3.15 | 2.68




In that combination 6th gear is almost exactly what 5th gear used to be.

Let me know what other LSD rear ends there are and I can add them to the modded chart.

[derbo]

Pretty much. So if you want to know what it feels like to drive in 6th gear with an M3 rear end, just keep it in 5th. :) Just imagine the response from 6th now! :D

[johnrando]

Good info, thanks!

[Hornung418]

William, you can swap the e39 M5 3.15 ring and pinion to the e46 M3 case.

Sent from my GS3.

[wsmeyer]

William, you can swap the e39 M5 3.15 ring and pinion to the e46 M3 case.

Thanks, I just updated the chart with that one. That would be a tiny bit shorter but I'm not sure it would be noticeable in either the rpm's or performance.

[Hornung418]

LSD is all I want :)

Sent from my GS3.

[derbo]

IDK I had the diff I sold Charlie in my car for a couple of weeks, it's a 3:46, I really didn't enjoy it that much. I basically takes away 6th gear. I also had a 325 for a while so I'm familiar with the 5 speed.
I do a lot of highway miles so the 3:15 I have in it now is perfect for me. On the other hand Charlie loves the 3:46. It's all personal taste.
Here's a pic of my dash with the 3:46 in it so you all can see exactly where the RPMs are in sixth gear at 80 mph
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/01/nudevu5u.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/AMYFl37l.jpg

Here is a pic with my 3.62.

[Sockethead]

That's about where my RPMs are at 80 mph with the 3:15

[Sockethead]

Horny, you can build a pretty inexpensive LSD from Diffs online especially if you send back your core. When you're ready to swap come on over. I swapped out Charlie's in 2 hrs...

[Hornung418]

Less than $1200?

Sent from my GS3.

[Sockethead]

IDK go to diffsonline.com
Sometimes Turner has sales on Diffs.
Diffs online builds all of Turner's Diffs too

[Hermes]

13708

[derbo]

Metric Mechanic!

[wsmeyer]

For those with manual transmissions that want LSD but don't want to change gearing there is a guy selling them e46 with the ZHP 3.07 gearing:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1024198

Hopefully someone can chime in with a list of everything else that would be necessary in addition to what he is selling.

[derbo]

It says in a later post :

Bolts into any e46 m3; this is an original e46m3 differential unit with gears changed from 3.62 to 2.93



========



List of parts needed not including the above differential:

-M3 subframe
-M3 driveshaft
-M3 half-shafts
-M3 Sway Bar
-M3 MK60 ABS Speed sensors (can use 325i or Auto 330i)

These are the absolute minimum.

Most likely you will want to get too since its a pain to remove the 330i parts off to put on the M3 subframe:
-M3 trailing arms
-M3 Control Arms
-M3 Camber Arms
-M3 rotors/Brakes
-M3 handbrake
-M3 Hub

[sillieidiot]

yeah it's kind of pointless. you still need everything that OP is selling. it's a better deal to just buy this subframe. then i guess if you still wanted lower gearing you can sell this diff and get the other

[Sockethead]

If you want to stick with the stock ratio, you can just get an LSD put in Your existing diff and skip the complication of the M3 conversion.
There are a lot of options out there these days. Places like Diffsonline have used parts too if you want to keep it low budget..

[Hornung418]

But then you can't run the cool M3 offsets and get the M3 brake upgrade. Charlie's friend Asmod3us is selling full sets for $900 picked up. $200 for the drive shaft which is not included.

Sent from my GS3.

[derbo]

But then you can't run the cool M3 offsets and get the M3 brake upgrade. Charlie's friend Asmod3us is selling full sets for $900 picked up. $200 for the drive shaft which is not included.

Sent from my GS3.



M3 offsets have nothing to do with the rear end. It is similar track to the non_M. its the oversized fenders that allow for larger offsets.

[sillieidiot]

technically you can do the m3 brake upgrade with custom brackets as well.

[derbo]

technically you can do the m3 brake upgrade with custom brackets as well.


You are referring to the rears?

[Hornung418]

M3 offsets have nothing to do with the rear end. It is similar track to the non_M. its the oversized fenders that allow for larger offsets.

Ahhh...I thought the axles were a few mm shorter than Non-M. Good to know.

Let me rephrase...you cant get the cool brake upgrade :-)

Sent from my GS3.

[derbo]

Ahhh...I thought the axles were a few mm shorter than Non-M. Good to know.

Let me rephrase...you cant get the cool brake upgrade :-)

Sent from my GS3.

Well if the mounting point for the rims have changed, I don't see it on my swap. :) The axles might be shorter on the non-M as the diff is larger..

[Tnhl1989]

Since Derek already has the m3 rear end I got a buddy with the S54 waiting for him as well.. ;)

[derbo]

Since Derek already has the m3 rear end I got a buddy with the S54 waiting for him as well.. ;)

:eeps

[sillieidiot]

You are referring to the rears?

yeah

[WilC]

I finally got an M3 so these must go.

PM or email me with reasonable offers.

Wilc71 at outlook dot com