any reasons NOT to supercharge?

[Romulan]

Hey guys,

I came across a good deal on a brand new VF supercharger..is there any reason I should not pick it up? Ever since I was a teenager I have dreamed of FI vehicle. My car currently has 58k miles. My only qualms are potential engine reliability and cooling issues, but then again the blower is only running at 6 psi

Anyone have this kit and regret installing it? Words of wisdom?

Even though i'm in california I'm not worried about smog test ;). Also, "should've bought an m3" posts will be ignored. Supercharged ZHP is more badass. Thanks in advance

[danewilson77]

Don't get it. And since you're not getting it.... What's the link? :shifty

J/k

I've only heard good things about VF but I definitely haven't done justice to the research.

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[mimalmo]

There's only one bad thing I can think of that happens when you boost a car.


Power is addicting. You'll have a hard time going back to anything less than 300hp.

Do it.

[danewilson77]

~wisdom~

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[LivesNearCostco]

I've never had forced induction (except one afternoon when a BMW dealer gave me a turbo 4-cyl 1-series loaner). But I've never heard of people having issues with this kind of setup running low boost for street driving, and I don't think +4 or +6psi comes with or needs an intercooler. If you take it on the track, you might think about adding an oil cooler or upgraded brakes, depending how hard you drive it and whether you do Thunderhill in November or Buttonwillow in July. This kit will add a little extra weight and can make some engine maintenance more work as anything that previously said "remove air box" now turns into "remove air filter, supercharger belt and blower." Gas mileage may be affected! :cheers

Now for the actual downsides--basicly what Minalmo said.

You could embarass your friends with Mustang GT, E46M3, Camaro, etc. Is a fast car worth the price of lost friendships?
As soon as you pass smog, local CHPies will ticket you, not for emissions, but for speeding!
Your wife/girlfriend/roommate/Mom will insist on borrowing your car to go to the supermarket
You will become obsessed and blow your tax refund and trust fund on track days
You'll become addicted to boost, leading to intercooler, then oil cooler, more boost, new tune, headers, exhaust, and eventually methanol injection.
You'll feel the need for a LSD then smoke your rear tires all over town, needing new ones every 6 months
Klingons and Vulcans become insanely jealous, leading to all-out war in the neutral zone

[Avetiso]

Do it now

[johnrando]

I know some people say that it puts more stress on an engine that wasn't designed for it, but what do they know? Do it! :biggrin

[Avetiso]

I've never had forced induction (except one afternoon when a BMW dealer gave me a turbo 4-cyl 1-series loaner). But I've never heard of people having issues with this kind of setup running low boost for street driving, and I don't think +4 or +6psi comes with or needs an intercooler. If you take it on the track, you might think about adding an oil cooler or upgraded brakes, depending how hard you drive it and whether you do Thunderhill in November or Buttonwillow in July. This kit will add a little extra weight and can make some engine maintenance more work as anything that previously said "remove air box" now turns into "remove air filter, supercharger belt and blower." Gas mileage may be affected! :cheers

Now for the actual downsides--basicly what Minalmo said.

You could embarass your friends with Mustang GT, E46M3, Camaro, etc. Is a fast car worth the price of lost friendships?
As soon as you pass smog, local CHPies will ticket you, not for emissions, but for speeding!
Your wife/girlfriend/roommate/Mom will insist on borrowing your car to go to the supermarket
You will become obsessed and blow your tax refund and trust fund on track days
You'll become addicted to boost, leading to intercooler, then oil cooler, more boost, new tune, headers, exhaust, and eventually methanol injection.
You'll feel the need for a LSD then smoke your rear tires all over town, needing new ones every 6 months
Klingons and Vulcans become insanely jealous, leading to all-out war in the neutral zone

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[az3579]

Do it.


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[brettbimmer]

What is the HP gain for us supposed to be with this setup running reasonable boost pressure?

[QC_ZHP]

VF is a low boost kit so its pretty safe to run. There's actually a few threads going on in the e46f F/I section about the VF kits. I think both mentioned that they ran into some obstacles on the install but nothing major at all. Something to check out if you plan on doing the install yourself.

I've had a couple of boosted Mustangs in the past and like mentioned, boost/power is addictive and it adds a whole different element to the car. Mine never gave me any trouble, but boosting your car is a big project. Since VF runs such a low boost, everything should go fairly smoothly in terms of tuning although the e46 is a difficult platform and I don't think any major fuel system upgrades would be needed. If I were to boost my car, I'd for sure want an LSD lined up in the near future. The open diff is going to be a killer with the added power. All that said, I'd love to boost an M54/S554, the high revs and smooth power delivery would make an extremely fun car, so I say go for it.

[LivesNearCostco]

I thought it was around 300 crank HP but the ECS tuning site says the VF SC with 6 psi boost delivers 330 crank HP or 290 WHP.
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-330Ci-M54_3.0l/Engine/Supercharger/ES2079260/
http://vf-engineering.com/z4-2003-06/


What is the HP gain for us supposed to be with this setup running reasonable boost pressure?

[QC_ZHP]

Here's the threads I mentioned.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1027343

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1005601

[Hermes]

Because 12:1

http://cdn.pureperformancemotorsport.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/p/ppm_racing_parts18_2.jpg

http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/bmw-m54b30-h-beam-connecting-rods-and-forged-pistons-combo.html

[Pip]

If you have sedan supercharge now. If you have coupe supercharge now...I'll just like the sedan version better. Supercharged ZHP = badass. I wanted Jon's a long time ago, but realized I lived in CA, but if you don't care then I'll support your decision.

[Lanister]

Boost is addictive. There's a reason they call it "replacement for displacement" :)

[slater]

if it's your second car, i'd say, do it - but with caveats...

1. LSD and stickier tires - what's the point of more power if you can't get it down anyway?
2. better dampers, at the very least - power is nothing without control.
3. upgrade your rear diff and subframe mounts

peter

[wsmeyer]

I go with... do something!

It seems like you've already budgeted the money so now it's down to deciding which one. Mayne a new thread is in order ZHP Supercharging options

The dyno graph in the second link above is very interesting - particularly the flat torque output from 2k to redline. The VF might not be the max HP gain but that flat torque output would be very appealing for a street DD.

The drawback of any SC in California is going to be dealing with smog. Sure you can uninstall the kit in a few hours but what about the ECU? Will you have to deprogram that too or would it run well and pass smog as is? If not that would greatly add to the time or necessitate buying a second ECU.

The other drawback is the added stress on the engine will certainly effect longevity. It's all relative though. People routinely run these engines past 200k miles so depending on how many miles you drive a year and your expectations only getting 175k out of yours might not matter to you.

[brettbimmer]

^Thanks for the HP figures. Not a bad bump in power for us!

Good luck with the supercharging if you do decide to do it. And, if you are doing it yourself, please create a project thread for us all to enjoy!

[LivesNearCostco]

I wonder if cars with the VF supercharger can pass the California tailpipe sniffer test. If yes and it's just a question of no CARB exemption, it should be possible to find a smog station that will overlook the supercharger. Maybe not easy--since the supercharger is kind of "in your face" once you open the hood--but possible. After all there are many turbo or supercharged BMWs, mustangs, Evos, WRX STIs, etc. that pass smog in California without any problem if they come with FI from the factory.

IIRC the California taillpipe test just measures MPH (on rollers), RPM, and tailpipe hydrocarbon, CO, and NO ppm at 15mph and 25mph. I don't see why a boosted M54 would fail as long as it has a proper tune and still has cats.

[derbo]

We made a supercharged E36 with activeautowerke pass the sniffer overlooking the visuals. :)


As far as the kit specifically, the VF supercharger has no upgrades available for the M54 engine. Power is addicting and keep in mind the power will lose its wow factor leaving you wanting more. AA or ESS have more upgradability compared to the VF unit.

[tkundhi]

Personally I like the ESS supercharger. But it is more $$. LSD recommendations are valid. Coming from an E36 M3 the big difference I can feel in the ZHP is the lack of the LSD. I already see I'll have to adjust my driving to not spin the inside wheel. A 100 extra hp would make the problem worse.


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[Romulan]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm inquiring a few performance shops about installation quotes. Two that I have talked to have already shot me down.
As far as passing smog goes, I wouldn't uninstall - I know somebody that knows somebody type of deal.

My roommate warned me though that California randomly selects cars that are "at risk" for modification (apparently e46's are) for a stringent inspection at a select few smog places, which would mean I need to take the blower off. Any truth to this?

After sleeping on it, an LSD from diffsonline is a bit more appealing. The supercharger would be stretching my funds to the limit. An LSD + install, not so much. Maybe it makes more sense to get a 3.46 LSD, then a UUC clutch/flywheel, before going FI?

If anyone else is interested, the kit I still might get is here on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VF-Engineering-Supercharger-System-E46-/281258571224?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417c5135d8&vxp=mtr) for $3000. If someone else buys it, it makes my decision easier :D

[johnrando]

No no no! We're counting on you. BUY BUY BUY. DO IT DO IT. :biggrin

[Pip]

Someone needs to buy this ASAP. I think this can be a DIY if you send off the DME.

[Romulan]

So I've decided to pass on going FI. I had a long conversation with a local mechanic and he steered me away from an aftermarket supercharger (i'm easily influenced)

For the cost of the kit, I will get a 2 clutch 3.46 final drive LSD from diffsonline and the UUC clutch/flywheel kit. I think I'll be happier with this setup, as it's more suited towards my style of driving, rather than the raw power that the VF kit would provide.

Plus my dinan tune and intake won't be going to waste..(even though i bought the car with those :D)

Sorry to get your hopes up..but as Pip said, someone needs to buy this kit!

I'll have videos of me gunning through corners and a review as soon as I do these mods

[MiniD]

So I've decided to pass on going FI. I had a long conversation with a local mechanic and he steered me away from an aftermarket supercharger (i'm easily influenced)

For the cost of the kit, I will get a 2 clutch 3.46 final drive LSD from diffsonline and the UUC clutch/flywheel kit. I think I'll be happier with this setup, as it's more suited towards my style of driving, rather than the raw power that the VF kit would provide.

Plus my dinan tune and intake won't be going to waste..(even though i bought the car with those :D)

You made the right choice, IMO.

It seems as if the popular answer is "OMG supercharge it now!!"...but the reality is, repairs are costly and it takes away from the day to day drivability of the car.

I had a supercharged M3 and although it was fast, the speed factor did not make up for the lack of day to day drivability. Just my $.02.

[johnrando]

:crying

[QC_ZHP]

^Lol

LSD is going to be sick. Wise choice

[derbo]

LSD is fun :D

[NoVAphotog]

Personally I like the ESS supercharger. But it is more $$. LSD recommendations are valid. Coming from an E36 M3 the big difference I can feel in the ZHP is the lack of the LSD. I already see I'll have to adjust my driving to not spin the inside wheel. A 100 extra hp would make the problem worse.


I'm looking for my first Zhp and have yet to drive one. Is what you are talking about that noticeable? I'd be coming from a car with an LSD. Granted it's FWD as well, but how do you adjust to not spin the wheel?


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[blalor]

I'm not sure you do. :-) I haven't driven my ZHP a ton, but it seems pretty easy to spin a wheel, especially when I want to break the back end loose. My E30 and BRZ were LSD'd; loved it. What's the going cost for an E46 LSD upgrade?


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[Romulan]

I'm not sure you do. :-) I haven't driven my ZHP a ton, but it seems pretty easy to spin a wheel, especially when I want to break the back end loose. My E30 and BRZ were LSD'd; loved it. What's the going cost for an E46 LSD upgrade?


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I'm paying $1899 not including shipping and core charge for a 2 clutch LSD. I'm not getting the extra polishing and fin options though which would add $200 each. The fins act as a heatsink, but I'm not tracking my car so I don't need it.

Quaife style which is another popular choice that doesn't use clutches goes for $2699

[tkundhi]

On street driving it's not a huge problem. You will quickly learn when the DSC kicks in and adjust so that doesn't happen.

Autox or track driving without an LSD means you must be more patient in applying throttle mid corner. I think it will also effect my braking coming into the turn. I trail brake often. Many times using my left foot. I don't think there is a simple rule of thumb. In some corners more trail braking may allow me to rotate the car and get back to full throttle sooner. In other corners I may not be able to tail brake at all because I can apply enough throttle to plant the back end and stop the rotation. It will take some practice.

All that said FWD has its own characteristics.

I recommend you go drive a ZHP if possible. Or a regular 330 if not. That should give you perspective. I think you'll find either very well balanced.

If you really need the LSD. Just upgrade. It's only money, right? :-)


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[NoVAphotog]

On street driving it's not a huge problem. You will quickly learn when the DSC kicks in and adjust so that doesn't happen.

Autox or track driving without an LSD means you must be more patient in applying throttle mid corner. I think it will also effect my braking coming into the turn. I trail brake often. Many times using my left foot. I don't think there is a simple rule of thumb. In some corners more trail braking may allow me to rotate the car and get back to full throttle sooner. In other corners I may not be able to tail brake at all because I can apply enough throttle to plant the back end and stop the rotation. It will take some practice.

All that said FWD has its own characteristics.

I recommend you go drive a ZHP if possible. Or a regular 330 if not. That should give you perspective. I think you'll find either very well balanced.

If you really need the LSD. Just upgrade. It's only money, right? :-)


Thanks for the info! And I have driven a regular E46 330ci and while it was just a short test drive, it felt fine around regular street corners. I guess it really is only a major issue in the snow or at an autox/track like you said.

[NoVAphotog]

I'm paying $1899 not including shipping and core charge for a 2 clutch LSD. I'm not getting the extra polishing and fin options though which would add $200 each. The fins act as a heatsink, but I'm not tracking my car so I don't need it.

Quaife style which is another popular choice that doesn't use clutches goes for $2699

Which one is the "better" option if you are interested in autox and having a safer winter driving experience? Or is it just more of a personal preference thing having the clutches or not?

[Romulan]

Which one is the "better" option if you are interested in autox and having a safer winter driving experience? Or is it just more of a personal preference thing having the clutches or not?

There is great information regarding different types of LSD's with their pros and cons at the bottom of this page:
https://www.koalamotorsport.com/performance_final_drives.asp

I don't think Quaife would be good for icey conditions based on that information

[johnrando]

OK. We need to change the title of this thread to "any reasons NOT to supercharge? Not really, but I'm getting an LSD instead." :biggrin

[blalor]

I'm paying $1899 not including shipping and core charge for a 2 clutch LSD.

Do-able. No shipping or core for me, as I'm a town over from them. :-)

[tkundhi]

Thanks for the info! And I have driven a regular E46 330ci and while it was just a short test drive, it felt fine around regular street corners. I guess it really is only a major issue in the snow or at an autox/track like you said.

For snow just put the DSC in the intermediate mode. Push the DSC button once. It will do fine. But having grown up in the DC area I still think snow tire should be used in the winter. More so for the icy conditions than pure snow.

FYI, to totally disable the DSC press and hold the DSC button until you see the brake light on the dash.


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[prowlerflyer]

It seems as if the popular answer is "OMG supercharge it now!!"...but the reality is, repairs are costly and it takes away from the day to day drivability of the car.

This is really kit, and tune level, dependant. I have around 50k miles on my ESS TS2 setup, it is completely reliable and drives as smooth as if it came from the factory. It hard to describe how much more aggressive it makes the car feel because of the available torque.

I can not think of any reason not to ESS TS2, other than the cost. Yep, not cheap, but it is a exceptionally well engineered kit.

FI does highlight the car's lack of a LSD.

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[JupiterBMW]

This is really kit, and tune level, dependant. I have around 50k miles on my ESS TS2 setup, it is completely reliable and drives as smooth as if it came from the factory. It hard to describe how much more aggressive it makes the car feel because of the available torque.

I can not think of any reason not to ESS TS2, other than the cost. Yep, not cheap, but it is a exceptionally well engineered kit.

FI does highlight the car's lack of a LSD.

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I'm glad you came in here and added this info Steve, because I was just about to quote the same post and mention your car.

I drove Steve's car and I can echo what he says 100%. When I win the lottery I will be doing the ESS TS2 kit as well.


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