HG Motorsports ECU tune adds 23HP to a ZHP in San Diego

[stephenkirsh]

I initially saw this video linked on bimmerforums.com and decided to take a look into it.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFssCDcVrjk

I contacted HG Motorsports to ask them about it since it seems kinda too good to be true, considering it's about 2x the gains of Conforti & Eurocharged.

Here's the email chain:

Me:
I've a ZHP and interested in finding more info about the tune in this video.

Blake Warren:


Hello Stephen,

The Jail Brake ZHP tune is a simple ECU flash. Price is $500.00 before tax. We can simply flash in house without going on the dyno.

If you would like a Dyno session it is $125.00.

Let me know, thank you!


Me:
Do you have any performance figures/info for the tune?


Blake:


The car went up an addition 23HP or 14%.
Are you still interested in the tune? We are ready to do the flash.


Me:
I'm not really interested if there isn't any other documentation besides a youtube video.

I would want reliability testing/list of mods on the car that was tuned/etc.

I value proven reliability over power for my daily driver, which is why the Eurocharged or Conforti tunes are more attractive to me, even though they only give half the power.

If you guys are able to prove your product in the market place, I may pull the trigger. You're definitely on my radar.



Blake:


Hi Stephen,

I will explain the difference between what my tuners do vs the majority of tunes available. We strive for drivability and the safest possible
tune we can achieve over simply meeting peak numbers;

In modern fuel injected vehicles, the ECU controls variables like spark advance, fuel, camshaft angle and throttle position.
Manufacturers program their vehicles in Europe on European fuel (98 RON or 95 RON) which is equivalent to our domestic 93 or 91 octanes
respectively. The difference is that the european fuels do not have the high ethanol content of domestic fuels. To account for this, the
European car manufacturers do not make a different calibration for each region of the world, they simply tune the car for the lowest common
denominator to account for the worst possible environmental conditions (like extreme heat in the Arabian peninsula) and the most negligent
drivers (the cheap skates putting 87 in their sports cars). The manufacturers make their claimed horsepower numbers on european fuel
and simply put in engine limitations to protect the car from these bad owners or harsh environments. What we find is that the stock calibration
is not always the best calibration for the car, simply the calibration meant for the majority of the cars owners. Like the difference between a store
bought suit and a tailored suit.

Now to make power on a car that has such a sophisticated computer running every possible variable is not an easy task. Most tunes on the market will be
very lazy in fact, where they just globally raise timing by a few degrees and hope for the best result. In our testing we've found that the stock timing targets
for these cars are not being hit, meaning that the car is actively pulling timing because of the environmental conditions or the quality of fuel. For example a
M3 will ask for 28 degrees of timing at 8000 RPM, but when logged you see the car is only hitting 20 degrees of timing. This means the car is pulling the maximum
amount of timing and it is still in a knocking condition due to poor fuel quality or another variable. Then this M3 owner gets a tune where the tuner blindly adds 2 degrees
of timing and the car will now be asking for 30 degrees of timing, pulling maximum timing and now it is in a very dangerous condition. It will be running 22 degrees of timing
but the car will be in danger of catastrophic engine failure for the extra 10hp gained from forcing timing into the car.

Now what we do is different in the sense that we do not force timing in a car. Ignition timing is the very last variable in a long list of factors we modify to make power,
and our goal is to make power safely. The modifications we make to fuel, throttle position, camshaft timing and other maps help the car hit it's natural timing targets rather than
force an extreme timing target into the car. Our modifications revolve mostly around what is referred to as "torque limits." Torque limits can limit ignition timing, throttle or fuel based on ambient temperature,
exhaust gas temperature, etc. These limits are raised to a safe level allowing the car to accelerate smoothly, reduce knock occurrence, and make extra horsepower and torque safely. The end result
is a tune that is as safe as stock, but makes more power throughout the rev range.

The raising of torque limits essentially removes the nanny software programmed into the factory tune to account for negligent drivers that never change oil, use poor quality fuel, etc. But also
there are torque limits in the cars as kind of a "sandbagging" by the manufacturer. The manufacturer will put the same engine in 2 models of car but charge tens of thousands of dollars for a
performance package that is just removing some of these torque limiters. An example would be the C63 AMG. The car was limited to 450hp where all other 63 engines made 500+hp. Mercedes then
released special editions of the C63 that would make 500+HP and charged the customers a large sum for the privilege of having the potential unlocked. We provide the service of unlocking
a car's full potential at a fraction of the price of what a dealership would charge, and do so in a way that is usually even safer than the factory tune, as ours is designed for california pump gas.




I don't plan on getting it unless they can send a Conforti Shark-like module to me, since they're located in San Diego, CA. But I thought I'd share this to see if anybody else has heard of this or wants to take the plunge!

I still haven't found out if the car in the video is stock or not. Fully stock and it still gets 23HP? If true, this could be interesting.

[Avetiso]

23hp sounds very optimistic, and asking $500 is a tough one considering they are practically unheard of.

I'm a little hesitant, but if they are willing to back it up, then it seems we have a new tune in town.

What's their policy on retunes and adjusting for mods?

[midlandtech]

Could be interesting but I like you am skeptical and need to know other mods on the car tested.

taptalk + Note 3

[Smolck]

I'd like Seth to read those emails and comment on what EuroCharged does, are they "forcing" timing into their tunes?

[QC_ZHP]

We need to track down that ZHP owner

[Vas]

His name is Greg and he works for HRE wheels in Southern California.

Has a sweet set of HRE flowform wheels on his ZHP.

[QC_ZHP]

Nice, any chance he'd come on here and post his thoughts

[QC_ZHP]

Edit: Double post. Is the forum acting up today for anyone else as well?

[NorCal-Dimitri]

Edit: Double post. Is the forum acting up today for anyone else as well?

I've been getting a lot of database errors.

[stephenkirsh]

I've been getting a lot of database errors.

+1 A lot of issues. I started a new thread about it.

[johnrando]

DB errors fixed. I know both AA and Eurocharged account for things like type of gas, etc... so that's not new. As for "forced timing", :dunno.

[Asiah119]

That is a hell of a hook that he has at the end of that email. He didn't really give you the response that you were looking for, though. I'd be interested to seeing the numbers compared with their competitors.
I doubt that any of them would be specific about what their tunes do. And shifting through the rhetoric and claims is never easy.

[Crickett]

Veeeeery interesting, indeed … we really need to hear from Seth about their claimed tuning method.

Also, did anyone notice the dyno chart in the YT vid? HP went up 23 ponies, but from 162.2 to 185.3. Is 162 HP at the wheels a normal loss for a roughly 10-year-old 235-bHP engine?

[Lanister]

Subscribed

[QC_ZHP]

+1 A lot of issues. I started a new thread about it.

I can't see the new posts in this thread. This is the last post on my screen. Posting to see what happens

[JKO_ZHP]

They're in SD? Tempted to go drive down there if this is legit....
Would definitely sell the headers and use the cash to get a tune instead. Same power gains!
Unless....keep headers and get the tune, and see gains of 45~HP to the wheels......:jawdrop

[WOLFN8TR]

$500 plus tax seems a bit steep.

[johnrando]

It is, but that's an avg. tune price unless you get a sale or group buy. Eurocharged's is much less thanks to mafia pricing.

[stephenkirsh]

Veeeeery interesting, indeed … we really need to hear from Seth about their claimed tuning method.

Also, did anyone notice the dyno chart in the YT vid? HP went up 23 ponies, but from 162.2 to 185.3. Is 162 HP at the wheels a normal loss for a roughly 10-year-old 235-bHP engine?

According to the thread on bimmerforums, the dyno used rates cars lower than they really are.

[WOLFN8TR]

It is, but that's an avg. tune price unless you get a sale or group buy. Eurocharged's is much less thanks to mafia pricing.

Ya that's the route I'm gonna take someday soon.

[Lanister]

+1, Eurotune shop an hour away. Will probably do it in the next few months.

[stephenkirsh]

I've no euro tune shops nearby :(

[Lanister]

There is one is daily city :) It's an affiliated shop but they get their maps directly from Eurocharge folks in Texas.

It's called Auto Sound Performance.

http://www.eurocharged.com/dealers

[Lanister]

Sorry if I confused Eurotune and Eurocharge, I meant charge all along.

[tkundhi]

Guys I discussed video at length with a fellow ZHP owner who also use to work for a large automotive company doing engine management software. His opinion is "no way." Too much information isn't being shared. Plus some of HG comments are not accurate. For example all major manufacturers do market specific calibration. We do not get the same maps as Europe. However it is true the maps must work for all conditions. Here in the US that means North Dakota winters and Death Valley summers.

Manufacturers tune for compliance, safety, reliability and then power. A good tuner can find gains but not 10% of the original.

His other feedback was to always look for the SAE adjusted hp number. It takes into account many different environmental conditions; temp, humidity, barometric pressure, etc... That helps make sure the dyno isn't being manipulated. Which he said is very easy to do.

HG Motorsports needs to provide a lot more information to support their claims.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnrando]

You'd think if a tune does get that much out of it, someone would have done it after all these years, as there's no shortage of tuners (AA, Eurocharged, Shark, Dinan...). So that right there could be an indication.

[PirateZHP]

You'd think if a tune does get that much out of it, someone would have done it after all these years, as there's no shortage of tuners (AA, Eurocharged, Shark, Dinan...). So that right there could be an indication.

+1

[stephenkirsh]

Update. I asked:

We're interested in more information over at ZHPMafia.

1.) Does this tune apply to cars w/ a steptronic transmission?
2.) Is there a Conforti-like device that can be mailed, or do we have to come to you?
3.) What mods were on the ZHP in the video besides the Jail Brake


Response #1:


Hello Stephen,

My name is Michael Lewis and I was just hired as the head of all the BMW modification here at HG. I sent an email over to the guys at Jailbreak and as soon as I hear back from them I will let you know. I have a couple guesses as to what were on the car, but I will wait to hear for sure. Thanks.



Response #2:


Hello Stephen,

So Bobby from Jailbreak just sent me this email…

"Hey Mike,
The tune works for auto or manual transmissions. It was a drop in tune that we dyno tested so not a custom tune.

We can flash the car's in person in SoCal or have the ecu's mailed in. We do have a conforti type device we can mail to the customer but it would add 300 dollars to the price as that's our cost on each unit. Because the price of the flash tool is so high we don't normally advertise that we use it.

The zhp on the dyno was completely stock, I don't even think he had a k&n filter but the only changes between runs was the tune."

Hope this answers some questions for you! Let me know how I can further assist.


So. Who is Jail Break?

[yura]

When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I'd avoid spending the money until more proof becomes available. Sounds shady IMO. Even if the tune DOES add the claimed horsepower, at what cost does it happen? Will your engine blow up in a month?


Who is Jail Break?

Perhaps these guys? http://jailbreakmycar.com/

[stephenkirsh]

Looks like it. They're claiming 30hp on an m3.

[wertyu78]

A friend of mine has a Jailbreak tuning tune on his E39 m5 and likes it for the most part, but has some complaints.

I drove across the country in July for Vacation and had arranged a day for Jailbreak tuning to use my car to develop a can tune for the ZHP. I was lead on that I would only pay a small "dyno use fee". The day had come where I was to meet the Jailbreak tuning folk at a shop in SoCal and I had called and asked how much cash I should bring for the dyno usage..... $750. I cancelled and proceeded to head to Hermosa Beach for the day.

[stephenkirsh]

Got this in an email just now.

Hey Stephen,

Wondering if you had any questions or concerns regarding the tuning! We would love to set you guys up with a great tune. If you aren't busy today, you can come to the 'cars at ucsd' Monday meet with your crew and check out my car or come to hang out. Hope you had a great weekend!

Sincerely,
Michael Lewis





Anybody in San Diego wanna go check it out?

[Hermes]

I might go, what time and where on campus

edit: nm, figured it out Imports@UCSD Monday Night Meets (www.facebook.com/events/294955073991703/)

what do you want me to ask?

[stephenkirsh]

Ummmm anything you want?

Ask about mods, I guess. 23hp gain on a completely stock engine seems too good to be true.

[johnrando]

Yes, what makes them different from all the other established tuners? I know they spoke of certain parameters, but it's not like those aren't know by the others. The E46 is not a new platform.

[Hermes]

HGMS is a decent company, it's an offshoot of the former Heinz Geitz Autohaus which was a tiny local Mercedes dealer for the last 50 years. The dealer is now closed but this I think is run by his grandson. I'll ask some questions.

Stephen, email your guy and tell him to look for me. I'll be driving the Imola ZHP with #88 autocross stickers on the windows that I'm too lazy to take off

[johnrando]

I believe they are. That they are advertising +23 HP is what is in question.

[tkundhi]

JP, the questions about their tune can be grouped into two categories; can they provide documentation about their gains. For example SAE corrected hp and torque number for both the baseline and modified runs. Second the fact their initial email to Stephen contained many inaccuracies.


In modern fuel injected vehicles, the ECU controls variables like spark advance, fuel, camshaft angle and throttle position. Manufacturers program their vehicles in Europe on European fuel (98 RON or 95 RON) which is equivalent to our domestic 93 or 91 octanes respectively. The difference is that the european fuels do not have the high ethanol content of domestic fuels. To account for this, the European car manufacturers do not make a different calibration for each region of the world, they simply tune the car for the lowest common denominator to account for the worst possible environmental conditions (like extreme heat in the Arabian peninsula) and the most negligent drivers (the cheap skates putting 87 in their sports cars). The manufacturers make their claimed horsepower numbers on european fuel and simply put in engine limitations to protect the car from these bad owners or harsh environments. What we find is that the stock calibration is not always the best calibration for the car, simply the calibration meant for the majority of the cars owners. Like the difference between a store bought suit and a tailored suit.

I discussed the video and these comments with an engineer who did engine tuning for a major automotive manufacturer. Many of the HGM statements are inaccurate. They take facts and present them out of context. For example, automotive manufacturers do not make one worldwide tune. Engines are tuned per market. Mainly for regulatory compliance and doing so takes into account the local gas. Additionally the manufacturers' quoted hp numbers must be pretty accurate otherwise there is the risk of legal action. Around 2000, Ford faced a class action lawsuit because the Cobra engines weren't putting out the claimed 320hp. Auto manufacturers aren't going to inflate the number for marketing reasons and then sell a car that can't output anything close to that. Another example of out of context facts are the statement about environmental conditions. It is true the engine is tuned for varying climates and other conditions but it is market specific. Here in North America that means both extreme hot and cold climates. Engines are also tuned so they aren't damaged by poor quality fuel. But all that is considered in the factory tune. So basically HGM states BMW makes hp claims on 91-93 octane but actually supplies cars with much less hp that are tuned to not fail in death valley when run on 87 octane ethanol gas. This simply isn't true.


Now to make power on a car that has such a sophisticated computer running every possible variable is not an easy task. Most tunes on the market will be very lazy in fact, where they just globally raise timing by a few degrees and hope for the best result.

AA, Conforti, Dinan, Eurocharged, etc have been tuning BMWs for years, but HGM implies these guys are being lazy and just advancing timing. I can say for a fact that is not how Jim Conforti tunes engine. Having personally spent hours talking to him, it is evident he understands what BMW is doing and knows how to safely get more power from BMW motors. I believe the other tuners know what they are doing also.

Being open minded maybe the folks over at HGM/Jailbrake discovered something new. If so they should be transparent and provide data to back that up. I think we can all understand their desire to protect their work. We aren't asking them to share their secret. But we do want verifiable data that proves they can really improve performance as they claim. Their one video isn't enough to do that.

Along those lines, the same automotive engineer told me several ways shops manipulate dynos. That is why he said getting an SAE adjusted number is important. The dyno is just a measurement tool. He went on to say that getting consistent observed hp numbers without any changes to tune is very difficulty. Manufacturers are meticulous in managing all the variables and there are still variations because of external factors. So we are looking for verifiable data that the dyno is operating consistently on the stock pull and the tuned pull. And that all environmental variables are being factored in including temperature, humidity and barometric pressure, etc… Some people will say that just look at the raw (observed) number but that doesn’t work. For example all factors being equal except an increase in barometric pressure from 29 inches to 30 inches will increase observed power by approximately 4%. But in reality nothing really increased is adjusted to commonly accepted standard.

So basically we’d like to see more scientific data to back up the HGM/Jailbrake claims.

t.

[johnrando]

Wow, you said what I was thinking but didn't know how to say it. Well put.

[stephenkirsh]

Yea great post.

I'm glad this thread has turned out the way it has.

[Hermes]

Thanks Tarun, I will print this out and just hand it to him so I don't forget any points. We'll see what they say. Maybe I'll have them email me the answer and then I'll post it

[wsmeyer]

...

Great info, thanks for putting the effort into gathering it and posting.

When I first read their explanation I was hoping they were just being vague to not tip off the competition to what they had figured out. Still possible IMO but calling other tuners "lazy" certainly doesn't give me a lot of confidence in them. If they really could deliver 23hp they would stand to sell a lot of tunes so it's definitely in their best interest to offer up some proof.

[Hermes]

On my way there now, any last questions?

[JupiterBMW]

Pumped for replies JP!


iPhone 5S. Tapatalk Pro. BOOM

[Hermes]

We stood around for an hour and nobody from HG came up and talked to me. I saw 3 E90's and an E36, no E46's.

[johnrando]

That's too bad.

[tkundhi]

JP thanks for trying. Too bad no one from HGM/Jailbrake was willing to discuss their tune.

If you are interested in reading more about tuning and dynos there are a couple threads over at the M5Board. The first one is about the Jailbrake tune, which is what HGM is offering. It is long (42 pages) and you must be willing to wade through a lot on BS to just get the facts. Matt the Jailbrake tuner is PedM5.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/242417-new-jailbreak-tune-beast-woah-dyno-inside.html

The second thread is about another tuner. The interesting thing is the comments from Evolve a proven UK tuner. While it can be debated whether they should have chimed in on the thread I believe they provided real information on dynos and tuning. Initially I don't think they were slamming the OP or the other tuner. Here is a link to the first comments from Evolve. There are several other tuners that jump in to the conversation. In the end there are some pretty strong opinions expressed.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/319922-frank-smith-tune-bone-stock-m5-3.html

Matt, (PedM5) makes an insightful statement on page 10.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/319922-frank-smith-tune-bone-stock-m5-10.html

Tuning and dynos will debated forever. Draw your own conclusions. Me, I staying stock or going with a proven solution.

t.

[johnrando]

Here's my non-technical philosophy on tunes. In order to get the market's attention and to trump competitors, tuners have to put claims out that might be hard to duplicate outside of optimal circumstance but aren't necessarily out of the realm of possibility. After all, they are not cheap and high HP #s would help justify the cost.

But for our engine platform, HP #'s aren't really key. If you can get a group buy price, (or the Eurocharged Mafia Family price), to me a tune is worth it regardless of HP claims. Your gas mileage goes up, your car's responsiveness goes up, and your engine has a little more growl to it. Now, at full price, that's a big ask.

You just have to accept tunes won't turn our cars into speed burners. So, regardless of HP claims, what do you want? Subtle improvements that increase your day to day driving experience? Check. Big power gains for the buck? Not gonna happen.