Sketchy Winter Handling

[deuce08s]

I've tried searching for info on my issue but not seeing what I'm looking for here......

This is my first RWD car for winter up in Minneapolis, and our road conditions go from dry to snowy to blowing snow to black ice to slush to washboard to some mix of up to four of those conditions.

Last year my car was crap in the winter because I needed new FCABs. I would drive on a snowy road or even the dry tracks on a highway and my front end would seem to skate around underneath me. Wind made it worse and I was downright scared to drive my car. I told myself I would change the bushings and give it one more winter. Well, here is that winter, and so far I have had too many episodes of instability on the freeways that cause me to have to watch people in minivans with A/S tires whiz right by me. It is usually the worse at highway speeds, and it gets really bad when it's windy out...or breezy! The road it cold as it's below zero here, there may be a dusting of snow like in my latest episodes, but the whole car just seems to make quick direction changes without me touching the wheel. The front wheels are the worst. i don't know how to explain it besides just saying that it seems like the car is not planted and there is a motor at each wheel driving each one at a different speed so the car just hunts all over the place.

My snow tires aren't terrible, but they are coming up on replacement for the front.....they are still not near the wear bars though, so I can't imagine its the tires. The dealer checked out my front end and said everything looks perfect. Brakes are good, though I didn't get an alignment after replacing the bushings...though the car doesn't really drift or pull either.

My rear snows are almost new but a little cupped inward in the middle (not sure how that happened). Either way, since I can't afford three cars I'm getting to the point where I feel I need to dump my ZHP even though I don't want to go down that road!

Is my last resort to get all four new snows, an alignment, and THEN make that the last test? I'm reading how everyone says this is a great RWD car for the winter but this has been the scariest car for me on the highways......and it's not fun!

Has anyone else felt this while driving their car on barely slippery roads and high speed?

Thanks for all your responses!


Bob

[brettbimmer]

Hi Bob, sorry to hear of your trouble with winter handling. A couple questions:

1. Do you experience any tramlining when it is dry? (This would be the car getting pulled left & right with the grooves in the road, or variations in road surface).

2. Do you have a matched set of winter tires (same brand/style)? If not, I wonder if your traction control is trying to compensate for different traction between different winter tires.

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[deuce08s]

Brettski,

1. With both my winter and summer tire setups I do have tramlining. I know my front summers need replacement badly. However, the roads I drive on in the winter that are also highways are pretty darn flat. But I wouldn't rule that out.

2. I do have mixed fronts and rears for brands...that's how I bought them from the PO. My traction control doesn't flash when all of this swerving is going on though. I actually have my foot off the gas when it starts or just barely throttling it.

I'm starting to think I just need to replace all the tires and see if that fixes it.

[rguti153]

I have problem 1. After I change my back rear tires ..mmmmmm

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[billyjack]

I would start with a new matched set of winter tires. Winter tires with the traction control should be a good combination.

[alexandre]

Many winter tires become as efficient as all seasons (ie. Garbage) past 50% wear. We got 3 ft of snow up here already and with 17" 225/45 blizzaks I feel very safe in my car. And I had only driven AWD Subarus before buying it. I think your first call would be to replace the tires on all 4 corners.


iP4S + TT2

[az3579]

I think you have a suspension or other kind of bushing issue. Your tires should not be cupping with good bushings and good alignment. You must fix that first before trying new tires.

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[kayger12]

I think you have a suspension or other kind of bushing issue. Your tires should not be cupping with good bushings and good alignment. You must fix that first before trying new tires.

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My thought initially as well, but the dealer said everything checked out ok with the front end.

RTABs could certainly be an issue in the back, but that shouldn't cause the problem he's describing.

Cupping in the middle sounds inflation related.

Sounds like your tires aren't playing well with each other. I'd go new all the way around and closely monitor for even wear.

[midlandtech]

How much camber is on the car? I've known guys that ride with a fair amount of camber to have issues on snowy and wet roads

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[UdubBadger]

yeah get a GOOD set of winters. Blizzaks or Dunlops come highly recommended. RTABs could be the cause of a squirrel ride as well. Remember you're being pushed from the back and not dragging the rear end. If your thrust angle is inconsistent from mushy RTABs you'll feel the back end come out very easily.

[brettbimmer]

Brettski,

1. With both my winter and summer tire setups I do have tramlining. I know my front summers need replacement badly. However, the roads I drive on in the winter that are also highways are pretty darn flat. But I wouldn't rule that out.

2. I do have mixed fronts and rears for brands...that's how I bought them from the PO. My traction control doesn't flash when all of this swerving is going on though. I actually have my foot off the gas when it starts or just barely throttling it.

I'm starting to think I just need to replace all the tires and see if that fixes it.


I have problem 1. After I change my back rear tires ..mmmmmm

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I would start with a new matched set of winter tires. Winter tires with the traction control should be a good combination.


Many winter tires become as efficient as all seasons (ie. Garbage) past 50% wear. We got 3 ft of snow up here already and with 17" 225/45 blizzaks I feel very safe in my car. And I had only driven AWD Subarus before buying it. I think your first call would be to replace the tires on all 4 corners.


iP4S + TT2


My thought initially as well, but the dealer said everything checked out ok with the front end.

RTABs could certainly be an issue in the back, but that shouldn't cause the problem he's describing.

Cupping in the middle sounds inflation related.

Sounds like your tires aren't playing well with each other. I'd go new all the way around and closely monitor for even wear.

Excellent feedback from the familia here. You should be able to make the ZHP winter-worthy without too much trouble.

If the dealer checked everything out, I am going with the theory that the difference between the front and rear tires are causing the issue here. While I personally have not had an issue with tramlining with winter tires, I have had issues with multiple summer tires. Certain tread patterns just do not seem to mesh well with the tar & chip back roads that I drive part of the time in rural Maryland. The original Bridgestone Potenza RE040's on my ZHP were awful, and I ended up switching to Yokohama S. Drives and the problem was gone. Only problem was that the Yoko's got very LOUD as they aged and didn't last very long. I have since ponied up for the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus (which Michelin has since replaced by MPS A/S 3), and they have been fantastic without any tramlining issues, as well as offering very good handling. I have driven road trips up to NH & back and Maine & back on them as well as using them around town, and have never had any tramlining on a variety of road surfaces. Incidentally, Bridgestone G-Force Sports were another tire that I have run in the past that had tramlining issues for me.

In terms of the best winter tires, I would take the advice from our northern family members (I hear that Blizzaks and Nokian Hakkapeliittas are well-loved up where it snows a lot and gets rather chilly). I have had a set of Michelin X-ice xi2 on my E36 during the winter for the past five years, and they have been great for a nice balance of handling on our fairly mild Maryland winters with occasional snow. No issues with tramlining at all. Totally different car in the snow once I switched over to these tires in the winter.

If the rear winters on your car are relatively new and are a quality tire, can you get a set of fronts to match to save yourself some cost? Otherwise I would put on four new good-quality matching winter tires. Unless something is really out of sorts with the suspension, I think that the tires are the issue. You may search for the brand(s) of tires that you have on your car and search "Tramlining" and see what you turn up in results. While the Michelins that I am running on my ZHP are "All" (No? :shift) Seasons, I follow many of the traditionalists that say you are far better to run a summer set and winter set for the best handling for each season. I went with the Michelins for their summer handling and treadwear rating, not for their snow capabilities.

Apologies for the small novel here, it's just that after multiple driving schools, I have come to really appreciate how important tire choices can be given the minimal contact patch that is actually keeping us on the road and out of the guardrail. Hope that this helps.

[deuce08s]

Thanks for all of the advice! You guys are great and I really want to make this car last as I love it dearly!

My rears are LM-60s and I bought my winter wheels and tires from a guy on Craigslist. It's very possible that the Rears were cupped last winter as well and I didn't look hard enough at them.

I'm not sure if the po had any changes made to the suspension alignment settings, but nothing looks exaggerated as far as wheel angles. I don't have any issues with the back end swinging out or breaking traction.....its the front end that feels like it's on ice and not making contact with the ground.

I've decided to go purchase a set of WS-70s today from Costco as the LM-60s are hard to find now.

I hope this fixes it.....

[az3579]

My thought initially as well, but the dealer said everything checked out ok with the front end.

RTABs could certainly be an issue in the back, but that shouldn't cause the problem he's describing.

Cupping in the middle sounds inflation related.

Sounds like your tires aren't playing well with each other. I'd go new all the way around and closely monitor for even wear.

Inflation issues would either cause excessive wear on the inside or the outside parts of the tires, depending on whether over or underinflated. Cupping isn't caused by inflation issues. Instead, suspension issues such as excessive bouncing (like all the morons who drive with completely blown shocks, allowing the car to bounce over every bump) or blown bushings tend to cause cupping. Alignment could also be a factor, but my money is on suspension.

The OP said that his FCABs were replaced last year. The cupping on the front could definitely be caused by the blown FCABs, and if he didn't replace the tires when the FCABs were replaced, then the cupping is a carried over issue from the last go-around. Once the tires are replaced in the front, the cupping shouldn't happen on the new tires. As far as the rear; did the dealer check the suspension all around the car? It is possible they missed something. My BMW tech friend says they don't do many RTABs at the dealer, so they could easily have ruled it out and overlooked it.



I would highly recommend going over the rear suspension bushings again carefully and check to see if any of them need replacing. Tires are not cheap; don't let some cheap bushings ruin a $600-1000 set of tires!

[kayger12]

Inflation issues would either cause excessive wear on the inside or the outside parts of the tires, depending on whether over or underinflated. Cupping isn't caused by inflation issues.


Underinflating causes excessive wear on both the inside and outside of the tire. Overinflating causes cupping in the middle of the tire which is exactly what he is describing.

http://www.spiveylaw.com/images/tireinflation.jpg

I was interpreting his use of cupping as meaning excess wear. If he's referring to scalloping, I agree.

It sounded to me like he was describing the right-hand photo above.

[az3579]

Underinflating causes excessive wear on both the inside and outside of the tire. Overinflating causes cupping in the middle of the tire which is exactly what he is describing.

http://www.spiveylaw.com/images/tireinflation.jpg

I was interpreting his use of cupping as meaning excess wear. If he's referring to scalloping, I agree.

It sounded to me like he was describing the right-hand photo above.

This is cupping. Please see this link and scroll down to the cupping section.
http://www.kaltire.com/commercial/truck/tire-wear-conditions/

The site refers to commercial tires but the conditions and the effects are all the same on a passenger car.


Here is another quick reference:

http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/vxdl7n2g/Selection_001.png

Here's a real-life pic, courtesy of whatever forum this came from:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6554/82202084.jpg

http://www.monroe.com/images/support/english/tirewear6.png

[kayger12]

Cool.

OP- can you clarify which type of wear you're seeing?

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[deuce08s]

Here is some clarification.........

1. The dealer only checked the front end because that's what I asked for. The rear is not the problem with handling and traction....its the front that is out of control.

2. When I bought the car the FCAB's were bad and the front summer tires had the Toe Wear similar to the picture above. I will be buying new summers for next year. I did replace the FCABs with Meile HD this past spring/summer.

3. The rear snow tires look like the Center Wear picture above. I did not notice this last year but don't really go hog wild with air pressure either. If anything, they weren't checked often enough and were probably under inflated a little.

4. When driving with the winter tires there was considering 'thudding' when slowing the car down.....obviously the front tires weren't the most even for tread wear.

5. All of this now is hopefully fixed as I just came home with Altimax Arctics from Discount Tire. Now, the car rides smooth and quiet and there is no more thudding at low speed and droning at highway speeds. Fingers are crossed that the stability is there, though an alignment is now in order just to make sure things stay wearing evenly.


Thanks so much for everyone's insight......you guys are great!

[az3579]

^ Awesome! So it seems that the problem you were having was just historical, and that the issues should now be fixed with new tires. I don't know where you're located, but if it's the Northeast, then you're in for a treat tonight. You'll have the opportunity to test the tires out tomorrow!

BTW, be wary of the Meyle HD bushings. I had premature failure on them (less than 30k miles), as have many others who recently had them installed. Years ago they were fine, but now they're manufactured somewhere else and the quality has gone down. Let us know when you replace them so we know how long they lasted! :)

[UdubBadger]

ah good to hear, sounds like an easy fix

[3ZHP]

Glad to hear you may have it worked out. I know I'm a little late to the party but, after working in the emergency service in Buffalo, NY when I was young, I'll throw in my two cents.

1. keep an eye on your air pressure, it means a lot in the snow.
2. Higher air pressure can help cut to the bottom if deep snow.
3. Wider tires float on top of the snow and possibly glaze it into white ice.
4. Thinner tires will cut the snow and give you better traction.
5. I'd personally recommend higher profile tires for the snow.
6. Although never tried, I believe ZHP stock tire sizes would suck in the snow.
7. If you get stuck with your ZHP, press and release the DSC button. That will leave on the DSC and will turn off the REV limiter. Sometimes you need a little more wheel spin the the DSC want's to give you.
8. Donuts; yes and I'm not talking the ones you eat. The next time it snows, find yourself an nu-plowed parking lot and spend an hour doing donuts with the DSC in all three modes (on, rev limiter off and completely disabled). To completely disable the DSC, hold the button down until the Brake light comes on. It's best to learn when you have lots of room to error and that experience will stay with you for the rest of your life.

I've had both Michelin Pilot MS and Blizak WS70 and found the Blizaks to be the better of the two. Ref both were 205/50 R17

[brettbimmer]

Great to hear that you seem to have the issue resolved with new winter tires!

[deuce08s]

^ Awesome! So it seems that the problem you were having was just historical, and that the issues should now be fixed with new tires. I don't know where you're located, but if it's the Northeast, then you're in for a treat tonight. You'll have the opportunity to test the tires out tomorrow!

BTW, be wary of the Meyle HD bushings. I had premature failure on them (less than 30k miles), as have many others who recently had them installed. Years ago they were fine, but now they're manufactured somewhere else and the quality has gone down. Let us know when you replace them so we know how long they lasted! :)



I'm in Minneapolis, and it's been terribly cold here all winter. I have another thread posted yesterday as my car just died on me while driving through an intersection. Still waiting for the dealer to look at it though. Sigh.

I'll keep my eye on the bushings. I did notice that part of the rubber boot has fallen off of each one, leaving a dangling ring of rubber that doesn't seem to associated with any functional part of the bushing. I thought I was getting a good part. Double sigh!